Very good, marksman. I have always understood saints (from scripture) to be the 'saved', the congregation of the righteous, the Church of Jesus Christ.marksman said:I know it is not the subject of the thread but as you raised it I thought I would investigate scripture as to what it says about saints. From the following verses there is no such thing as a greater or lesser saint or believer All the references to saints were to the everyday people of the fellowship as the ones you call saints did not exist when it was written so what you are saying is an invention of the Catholic Church, not scripture.
Act 9:13 And Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how many bad things he did to Your saints in Jerusalem.
Act 9:32 And it happened, passing through all, Peter also came down to the saints dwelling in Lydda.
Act 26:10 which I also did in Jerusalem, I also shut up many of the saints in prisons, receiving authority from the chief priests; and they being put to death, I cast a vote.
Rom 1:7 to all those who are in Rome, beloved of God, called-out saints: Grace and peace
to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 12:13 imparting to the needs of the saints, pursuing hospitality.
Rom 15:25 But now I am going to Jerusalem, doing service to the saints.
Rom 16:15 Greet Philologus and Julias, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints with them.
1Co 1:2 to the assembly of God which is in Corinth, those having been sanctified in Christ
Jesus, called-out saints, with all those calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, both theirs and ours:
1Co 14:33 For God is not of confusion, but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints.
2Co 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, through the will of God, and Timothy the brother, to the assembly of God being in Corinth, with all the saints being in all Achaia,
2Co 13:13 All the saints greet you.
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, to the saints
being in Ephesus and faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:15 Because of this, hearing of your faith in the Lord Jesus and love toward all the saints,
Eph 5:3 But let not fornication, and all uncleanness, or greediness, be named among you, as is fitting for saints;
Php 1:1 Paul, and Timothy, slaves of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the overseers and ministers:
Homosexuality
- Thread starter th1b.taylor
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
- Status
Very good, marksman. I have always understood saints (from scripture) to be the 'saved', the congregation of the righteous, the Church of Jesus Christ.marksman said:
You scare me somewhat, marksman. Some of the others on this thread, while I disagree with them and will continue to discuss the topic with them, don't quite have the same air of righteous superiority (some are close) and the "I'm an academic" approach that you flaunt. I realized this a couple of days ago just as I was beginning to appreciate, while not necessarily agreeing with, your views on the subject. There's something about you (your posts) that doesn't quite ring true. Just for the record, I studied Socal Science at the James Cook University here in Townsville. I got my degree in 2006. While this means nothing to anyone else I, too, studied strand subjects related to the course that included homosexuality. So, please don't try to 'one-upmanship' me on your expertise on the subject simply because you believe that you have God on your side and i don't.marksman said:
Now I've had my rant ...why did you attend the Melbourne MCC Church in the first place? The answer to that is, of course, in your post.
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
I have just done a check of figures from the ABS and all told there are 9,096 churches in Australia.
Fifty one is just a drop in the ocean and suggests that they are the ones who are out of step, not the other 9,045.
No, I was making the simple observation that many people do not know about this and surprised that not only do you know about the MCC and other GLBT fellowships. If you notice, SilenceinMotion attested to the fact that he did not know about it.KCKID said:
How did I learn about it? In the 1980s, Dick Eastman was the found of "World School of Prayer" and he had a brother named Don Eastman. Don Eastman was an Assembly of God Pastor that came out as Gay and joined the already established Metropolitan Community Church.
"The Rev. Elder Don Eastman was formerly an ordained minister with the Assemblies of God. He received his theological training at Central Bible College in Springfield, Missouri. Following graduation in 1966, he served an Assemblies of God congregation in Wisconsin as Pastor for six years. In 1972, he resigned the pastoral ministry to assume full-time secular duties as an official of the American Lung Association in Iowa.
In 1975, upon coming out as a gay man, Rev. Eastman resigned his ministerial credentials with the Assemblies of God and began a new ministry in the lesbian and gay community with Metropolitan Community Church. Since then he has pastored MCC congregations in Des Moines, Iowa and Dallas, Texas where he served for 8 ½ years. Under Rev. Eastman’s leadership from 1978 to 1986, MCC of Dallas grew to become the largest congregation in the world-wide fellowship."
That is how I found out that the GLBT community had started their own church which is world-wide now.
Here is the link I found when searching on his name.
I finally understand what Eminem meant in his song when he says "the mcc won't let me be''
Rotfl, they got mad at him for being mean to gays in his raps :lol:
Rotfl, they got mad at him for being mean to gays in his raps :lol:
There were more established Churches on that list, S.I.M. Are they too denied by the US National Council of Churches?SilenceInMotion said:
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Jesus scared the religious leaders of his day and look what happened to him as a result of his no holds barred approach to them.
Yes I have noticed that it is a ploy of the pink mafia that when they can't produce anything to disprove your facts, they resort to innuendo and ad hominen attacks. My approach is not academic. It is truth based on facts, which I have spent years compiling. This is so important as the scripture says that it is the truth that sets you free, not lies or opinions.
The pink mafia have been telling me that for years but I let it go through to the keeper as they rarely can produce anything to contradict the facts I produce.
I don't need to try 'one-upmanship' as I don't bother competing with others as I know what I have studied, learnt, experienced and debated so one might say I am fairly confident in my position. FYI, I have three University degrees and one theological. Not boasting, just letting you know that I was not born yesterday.
No its not. I said I attended it. I didn't say why I attended it which I did in my role as a research officer for a Christian Organisation to find out if it was Christian.
Well being that they are all in Australia, I would find it odd if they approved or denied them.KCKID said:
Not all churches are 'closed circuit'. Baptist churches, for examaple, are very diverse. There are very conservative and very liberal Baptist churches. In America, you'd see a monumental difference between one in the south and one in the north. They are more diverse then kids on the cover of a civics book, seriously- it's not a coincidence that Baptist is big on that list.
I've asked this question several times before (not necessarily on this forum) and have not, to my recollection, ever received a satisfactory answer. So, I'll ask it of you, marksman, since you appear to to be the all-knowing oracle in all things to do with homosexuality.marksman said:
According to what you say above, tell me, are homosexuals, then, no more than 'deviant heterosexuals'? If no, then are they 'genuine' homosexuals? If yes, can you then explain how a heterosexual who is naturally sexually oriented toward another of the opposite gender would CHOOSE - for NO reason, mind, except, perhaps, to p--- off Christians - to be sexually attracted to another of the same gender? Can you answer that relatively simple question in language that is free of religiosity, red herrings, academic poop or the usual air of self-righteousness?
Thank you.
I believe when the government decrees that 501c3 churches must hire "alternative lifestyle" people that it will open up the floodgates to Nambla (National Man Boy Love Association) and every perverse spirit imaginable including practicing pagans and satanists?
For you Brits online, whatever became of this: EU Rules Would Force Churches To Hire Pagans, Satanists
This may give you a sense of what could happen in straight Churches.
Boy Scouts Of America vs Gay Scouts
[SIZE=large]This is a sampling of reader responses:[/SIZE]
Ron, a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology said, “The gays don't recognize pedophilia because it is a natural thing for them to be attracted to young boys. There is an organization called NAMBLA, North America Man Boy Love Association, which advocates relationships with very young boys. Their motto is "If not before eight, then it is too late.” A gay scout organization is a good alternative. Agree 100% with you.”
John wrote, “At fifteen I had to physically assault a homosexual to get out of his basement after he had hired me to shovel coal into a stoker furnace. I was too ashamed to tell my parents. Also in that era before I got a car on my seventeenth birthday hitch-hiking was popular. I cannot tell you how many times I threatened to jump from a moving car if they did not stop and let me out. In my professional career, I found that just about every dwelling of homosexuals I searched, I found child porn often Polaroid’s of the individual I was searching for and young boys as young as eight years in horrible unspeakable acts. Thanks for speaking the truth you have courage.”
Helen said, “I would include priests in Roman Catholic churches which attract homosexuals and pedophiles because of priests not marrying. Parents should be careful of their sons becoming altar boys and being taught in school by homosexual priests.”
A Denver native said, “I'm 66 years old and grew up in Denver. At eleven, delivered papers early in the morning on the east side and the gay bars would have let out for a few hours, when I would be up delivering papers. I was often cruised by them in their cars and carried a small pipe that when stuck out of my jacket sleeve resembled the barrel of a gun to chase off. The more persistent ones would stop and bother me. The closer I got to the capital, the worse it was. I never saw a gay man who wasn't also a pedophile. Now of course every perversion in the world is coming out of the closet trying to jump on “the normalize me” bandwagon.
One of my friends related his experience: “Frosty, when I lived in Alaska, I was confronted by a teacher up there at West Anchorage High School in my sophomore year. When he told me what I "had to do if I wanted a passing grade" I threw him down the marble staircase and jumped over him and ran right to the vice principal’s office and told him. The teacher denied it and the vice principle wanted to know if I had a witnesses. I didn't, so they let the teacher stay working at the school and they tried to expel me for tossing him down the stairs. I was kicked out of school for my first week and then another boy who had heard about me, told the vice principle the same thing happened to him. So they transferred the teacher to another school instead of firing him. Once he was at the other school, he was beaten up by four Inuit Indians for messing with one of their brothers. He left Alaska and we never heard from him again.”
It may be that if the government does force GLBT acceptance into every area of society, including churches and private organizations that Christians will just have to go underground and meet in homes once again. Of course, then they will pass a decree that meeting in homes is illegal (there was a case about this in Arizona).
Conspiracy Of Silence (Banned Discovery Channel Documentary)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asvl6kO1Vo8
"Conspiracy of Silence" is a powerful, disturbing documentary revealing a nationwide child abuse and pedophilia ring that leads to the highest levels of government.
No surprise that a small percentage of people (GLBT) have so much clout in a nation when high ranking government officials are practicing the same craft.
For you Brits online, whatever became of this: EU Rules Would Force Churches To Hire Pagans, Satanists
This may give you a sense of what could happen in straight Churches.
Boy Scouts Of America vs Gay Scouts
[SIZE=large]This is a sampling of reader responses:[/SIZE]
Ron, a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology said, “The gays don't recognize pedophilia because it is a natural thing for them to be attracted to young boys. There is an organization called NAMBLA, North America Man Boy Love Association, which advocates relationships with very young boys. Their motto is "If not before eight, then it is too late.” A gay scout organization is a good alternative. Agree 100% with you.”
John wrote, “At fifteen I had to physically assault a homosexual to get out of his basement after he had hired me to shovel coal into a stoker furnace. I was too ashamed to tell my parents. Also in that era before I got a car on my seventeenth birthday hitch-hiking was popular. I cannot tell you how many times I threatened to jump from a moving car if they did not stop and let me out. In my professional career, I found that just about every dwelling of homosexuals I searched, I found child porn often Polaroid’s of the individual I was searching for and young boys as young as eight years in horrible unspeakable acts. Thanks for speaking the truth you have courage.”
Helen said, “I would include priests in Roman Catholic churches which attract homosexuals and pedophiles because of priests not marrying. Parents should be careful of their sons becoming altar boys and being taught in school by homosexual priests.”
A Denver native said, “I'm 66 years old and grew up in Denver. At eleven, delivered papers early in the morning on the east side and the gay bars would have let out for a few hours, when I would be up delivering papers. I was often cruised by them in their cars and carried a small pipe that when stuck out of my jacket sleeve resembled the barrel of a gun to chase off. The more persistent ones would stop and bother me. The closer I got to the capital, the worse it was. I never saw a gay man who wasn't also a pedophile. Now of course every perversion in the world is coming out of the closet trying to jump on “the normalize me” bandwagon.
One of my friends related his experience: “Frosty, when I lived in Alaska, I was confronted by a teacher up there at West Anchorage High School in my sophomore year. When he told me what I "had to do if I wanted a passing grade" I threw him down the marble staircase and jumped over him and ran right to the vice principal’s office and told him. The teacher denied it and the vice principle wanted to know if I had a witnesses. I didn't, so they let the teacher stay working at the school and they tried to expel me for tossing him down the stairs. I was kicked out of school for my first week and then another boy who had heard about me, told the vice principle the same thing happened to him. So they transferred the teacher to another school instead of firing him. Once he was at the other school, he was beaten up by four Inuit Indians for messing with one of their brothers. He left Alaska and we never heard from him again.”
It may be that if the government does force GLBT acceptance into every area of society, including churches and private organizations that Christians will just have to go underground and meet in homes once again. Of course, then they will pass a decree that meeting in homes is illegal (there was a case about this in Arizona).
Conspiracy Of Silence (Banned Discovery Channel Documentary)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asvl6kO1Vo8
"Conspiracy of Silence" is a powerful, disturbing documentary revealing a nationwide child abuse and pedophilia ring that leads to the highest levels of government.
No surprise that a small percentage of people (GLBT) have so much clout in a nation when high ranking government officials are practicing the same craft.
Okay, thanks for your answer.SilenceInMotion said:
Well, I became a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church back in 1988. While once a high-profile figure in that Church I haven't attended for almost 5 years although my name is still on the membership roll. That said, I'm wondering if you would find the SDA Church 'out of step' with mainstream Christendom if you were to attend it. They believe that mainstram Christians worship on a bogus 'sabbath' and that Ellen G. White was a prophet who should be deified. There would be MANY Churches today that would be seen to be 'out of step' with the mainline Christian Church. In fact, I would doubt that there is even ONE Church today of which Jesus would approve. That's because Christianity is not found in a Church but within the heart of the individual. Nice piece of rhetoric, I grant you, but true nonetheless!marksman said:
I do agree with that, KCKID. God does not save organizations, He saved individuals that make up His Body. And who makes up His Body? Well, only He knows, but we have many hints in His word.KCKID said:Okay, thanks for your answer.
I would doubt that there is even ONE Church today of which Jesus would approve. That's because Christianity is not found in a Church but within the heart of the individual. Nice piece of rhetoric, I grant you, but true nonetheless!
2Ti_2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
We would not be told to "depart from iniquity" if it could not be done and it CAN'T be Done without Christ indwelling us. I hope you can agree with that. No man can live the Christian life apart from Christ. It is impossible. When we try to do that, we then make high sounding religious excuses for our sin and why God loves us anyway.
No need to bother you have plenty of conversations to answer that doesn't involve ....Yawn ....*scripture*KCKID said:
Maybe it's just more fun to talk about homosexuality than it is to find Gods solution
I will always try to be honest, dragonfly, even if it means that I have to say, "I don't know." There's a great deal that I don't know. And, that's it ...I don't know if homosexuality is seen as unacceptable to God because God has never spoken to me personally. If it is unacceptable then it would surely be because God designed the act of sex solely for procreation and not because it's personally 'icky' to`Him. I mean, He IS God, after all, and is surely devoid of petty human emotions. But then, we HAVE made God into a human entity, haven't we?dragonfly said:
Procreation, of course, can only occur between a male and a female. I can find nothing in scripture (other than allusions to sex as pleasure in Song of Solomon) that suggests that sex was intended for anything other than procreation. It seems that it was never intended to sell cars or dishwashing detergent or to be used to titilate men into participating in obscenities on the Internet. etc. etc. That said, there are MANY things that are displeasing to God and simply being human and behaving like a human seems to be a sin all its own. I mean truly! Humans quite clearly did not turn out the way God would have intended. Humans were a disappointment to God and I do believe that a scripture exists where it states that God regrets having created human beings in the first place. So, sex used as pleasure (recreational sex) when it was intended for procreating would no doubt be one of the things that irks God about one being human. But, as said, that's just ONE of a whole slew of things that God finds unnacceptable.
I DO believe, as already stated, that the scriptures used against homosexuals do indeed refer to the worship practices surrounding pagan idol worship REGARDLESS as to whether or not God personally finds homosexuality per se to be unacceptable. There is a great deal of information on the Internet - more, in fact that I could have ever imagined - as to the crude and bizarre worship practices of the pagans and, apparently, also the Jews themselves! We ARE talking about an age, time and a culture that was far removed from that of ours and this quite obviously needs to be taken into consideration whenever we discuss scripture. It would take reams and reams of forum cyberspace
to delve into the difficulties that the early Christian Church was experiencing and so the Internet is a good source for this.Homosexual acts - as with heterosexual acts - are surely reserved for the privacy of one's bedroom ...? And, while not intending to be crass, if it's anal sex that seems to be the issue then would that not also apply to many heterosexuals who similarly practice this in private? Could it not also be assumed that some homosexuals might prefer not to practice anal sex at all? It seems to me that some rather creepy voyeurism is involved here where the sexual practices of two people - never heterosexuals, it would seem, but certainly homosexuals - are imagined to be taking place. Between you and me, dragonfly, when I attended church - last time about 4/5 years ago, the LAST thing that I would have allowed to enter my head would have been what the pastor and those of the congregation got up to at nights in their bedroom! Dread the thought! And yet ...this is precisely what is going on here with regard to homosexuality . . . Finally, on this particular take ...why would what one might do with another in private have anything to do with one's affectiveness as a Christian witness ...?dragonfly said:
I don't see homosexuality per se as being idolatry. Just like heterosexuality, sex CAN become something to be idolized. Why separate one group from the other except to smear the other? Before I'd even heard of homosexuality I hung around guys in my youth who seemed to regard every female as a sex object. Some would literally froth at the mouth if they saw a naked mannekin in a shop window. That's true today with a huge percentage of males if not females. Sex is their idol. Why do you single out homosexuality ...a minority group with which to make your point?dragonfly said:
Homosexuality aside ...Paul was a human being, same as me. His letters made it into the Bible through the luck of the draw. I don't believe that the writings of Paul are to be considered 'divine' as well written or as inspirational as they might be considered to be. Paul was NEVER mentioned - even hinted at - by Jesus as someone who would eventually fill His shoes. That is not to mention, of course, that the word 'homosexual' was not found in Paul's vocabulary. As for the Church of Corinth ...it seems that THAT was a Church that was just about as dysfunctional as a Church could ever get!dragonfly said:
As for idolatry. For many Christians the BIBLE has become their idol. They believe it not to be a book containing words written by men but they consider it to be GOD Himself! How often do they say "God says" before quoting a text from the Bible? Some Christians - MANY Christians - are the biggest idol worshippers and they don't know it. . . .
Ah, the story-book marriage and 'the rules'. And they all lived happily ever after. unfortunately, in the real world that just ain't so. Fifty percent of all of these wonderful marriages end in divorce causing much heartache and creating dysfunctional families. Human beings are just naturally screw up. Apparently God knew that, Jesus knew that and, apparently, that's why He came so that He could 'un-screw' us by imputing His perfection on to us. Without that symbolism - no 'rules' per se - we would certainly never pass muster with God.dragonfly said:
Sorry Rex ...I'm just joshin' with ya . . .Rex said:
By the way, I have a brother by the name of Rex ...he lives on the Shetland Islands or did the last I heard . . .
KCKID said:I will always try to be honest, dragonfly, even if it means that I have to say, "I don't know." There's a great deal that I don't know. And, that's it ...I don't know if homosexuality is seen as unacceptable to God because God has never spoken to me personally. If it is unacceptable then it would surely be because God designed the act of sex solely for procreation and not because it's personally 'icky' to`Him. I mean, He IS God, after all, and is surely devoid of petty human emotions. But then, we HAVE made God into a human entity, haven't we?
Procreation, of course, can only occur between a male and a female. I can find nothing in scripture (other than allusions to sex as pleasure in Song of Solomon) that suggests that sex was intended for anything other than procreation. It seems that it was never intended to sell cars or dishwashing detergent or to be used to titilate men into participating in obscenities on the Internet. etc. etc. That said, there are MANY things that are displeasing to God and simply being human and behaving like a human seems to be a sin all its own. I mean truly! Humans quite clearly did not turn out the way God would have intended. Humans were a disappointment to God and I do believe that a scripture exists where it states that God regrets having created human beings in the first place. So, sex used as pleasure (recreational sex) when it was intended for procreating would no doubt be one of the things that irks God about one being human. But, as said, that's just ONE of a whole slew of things that God finds unnacceptable.
I DO believe, as already stated, that the scriptures used against homosexuals do indeed refer to the worship practices surrounding pagan idol worship REGARDLESS as to whether or not God personally finds homosexuality per se to be unacceptable. There is a great deal of information on the Internet - more, in fact that I could have ever imagined - as to the crude and bizarre worship practices of the pagans and, apparently, also the Jews themselves! We ARE talking about an age, time and a culture that was far removed from that of ours and this quite obviously needs to be taken into consideration whenever we discuss scripture. It would take reams and reams of forum cyberspace
Homosexual acts - as with heterosexual acts - are surely reserved for the privacy of one's bedroom ...? And, while not intending to be crass, if it's anal sex that seems to be the issue then would that not also apply to many heterosexuals who similarly practice this in private? Could it not also be assumed that some homosexuals might prefer not to practice anal sex at all? It seems to me that some rather creepy voyeurism is involved here where the sexual practices of two people - never heterosexuals, it would seem, but certainly homosexuals - are imagined to be taking place. Between you and me, dragonfly, when I attended church - last time about 4/5 years ago, the LAST thing that I would have allowed to enter my head would have been what the pastor and those of the congregation got up to at nights in their bedroom! Dread the thought! And yet ...this is precisely what is going on here with regard to homosexuality . . . Finally, on this particular take ...why would what one might do with another in private have anything to do with one's affectiveness as a Christian witness ...?
I don't see homosexuality per se as being idolatry. Just like heterosexuality, sex CAN become something to be idolized. Why separate one group from the other except to smear the other? Before I'd even heard of homosexuality I hung around guys in my youth who seemed to regard every female as a sex object. Some would literally froth at the mouth if they saw a naked mannekin in a shop window. That's true today with a huge percentage of males if not females. Sex is their idol. Why do you single out homosexuality ...a minority group with which to make your point?
Homosexuality aside ...Paul was a human being, same as me. His letters made it into the Bible through the luck of the draw. I don't believe that the writings of Paul are to be considered 'divine' as well written or as inspirational as they might be considered to be. Paul was NEVER mentioned - even hinted at - by Jesus as someone who would eventually fill His shoes. That is not to mention, of course, that the word 'homosexual' was not found in Paul's vocabulary. As for the Church of Corinth ...it seems that THAT was a Church that was just about as dysfunctional as a Church could ever get!
As for idolatry. For many Christians the BIBLE has become their idol. They believe it not to be a book containing words written by men but they consider it to be GOD Himself! How often do they say "God says" before quoting a text from the Bible? Some Christians - MANY Christians - are the biggest idol worshippers and they don't know it. . . .
Ah, the story-book marriage and 'the rules'. And they all lived happily ever after. unfortunately, in the real world that just ain't so. Fifty percent of all of these wonderful marriages end in divorce causing much heartache and creating dysfunctional families. Human beings are just naturally screw up. Apparently God knew that, Jesus knew that and, apparently, that's why He came so that He could 'un-screw' us by imputing His perfection on to us. Without that symbolism - no 'rules' per se - we would certainly never pass muster with God.
Sorry Rex ...I'm just joshin' with ya . . .
By the way, I have a brother by the name of Rex ...he lives on the Shetland Islands or did the last I heard . . .
I tend to think that you're a homosexual apologist or -by your own admittance- an enabler. your discourse is thought out and typical for those that are pro-homosexuality. I imagine your religious suggestion on your home page is nothing more than a front for your 'pink mafia' tactics.KCKID said:I will always try to be honest, dragonfly, even if it means that I have to say, "I don't know." There's a great deal that I don't know. And, that's it ...I don't know if homosexuality is seen as unacceptable to God because God has never spoken to me personally. If it is unacceptable then it would surely be because God designed the act of sex solely for procreation and not because it's personally 'icky' to`Him. I mean, He IS God, after all, and is surely devoid of petty human emotions. But then, we HAVE made God into a human entity, haven't we?
Procreation, of course, can only occur between a male and a female. I can find nothing in scripture (other than allusions to sex as pleasure in Song of Solomon) that suggests that sex was intended for anything other than procreation. It seems that it was never intended to sell cars or dishwashing detergent or to be used to titilate men into participating in obscenities on the Internet. etc. etc. That said, there are MANY things that are displeasing to God and simply being human and behaving like a human seems to be a sin all its own. I mean truly! Humans quite clearly did not turn out the way God would have intended. Humans were a disappointment to God and I do believe that a scripture exists where it states that God regrets having created human beings in the first place. So, sex used as pleasure (recreational sex) when it was intended for procreating would no doubt be one of the things that irks God about one being human. But, as said, that's just ONE of a whole slew of things that God finds unnacceptable.
I DO believe, as already stated, that the scriptures used against homosexuals do indeed refer to the worship practices surrounding pagan idol worship REGARDLESS as to whether or not God personally finds homosexuality per se to be unacceptable. There is a great deal of information on the Internet - more, in fact that I could have ever imagined - as to the crude and bizarre worship practices of the pagans and, apparently, also the Jews themselves! We ARE talking about an age, time and a culture that was far removed from that of ours and this quite obviously needs to be taken into consideration whenever we discuss scripture. It would take reams and reams of forum cyberspace
Homosexual acts - as with heterosexual acts - are surely reserved for the privacy of one's bedroom ...? And, while not intending to be crass, if it's anal sex that seems to be the issue then would that not also apply to many heterosexuals who similarly practice this in private? Could it not also be assumed that some homosexuals might prefer not to practice anal sex at all? It seems to me that some rather creepy voyeurism is involved here where the sexual practices of two people - never heterosexuals, it would seem, but certainly homosexuals - are imagined to be taking place. Between you and me, dragonfly, when I attended church - last time about 4/5 years ago, the LAST thing that I would have allowed to enter my head would have been what the pastor and those of the congregation got up to at nights in their bedroom! Dread the thought! And yet ...this is precisely what is going on here with regard to homosexuality . . . Finally, on this particular take ...why would what one might do with another in private have anything to do with one's affectiveness as a Christian witness ...?
I don't see homosexuality per se as being idolatry. Just like heterosexuality, sex CAN become something to be idolized. Why separate one group from the other except to smear the other? Before I'd even heard of homosexuality I hung around guys in my youth who seemed to regard every female as a sex object. Some would literally froth at the mouth if they saw a naked mannekin in a shop window. That's true today with a huge percentage of males if not females. Sex is their idol. Why do you single out homosexuality ...a minority group with which to make your point?
Homosexuality aside ...Paul was a human being, same as me. His letters made it into the Bible through the luck of the draw. I don't believe that the writings of Paul are to be considered 'divine' as well written or as inspirational as they might be considered to be. Paul was NEVER mentioned - even hinted at - by Jesus as someone who would eventually fill His shoes. That is not to mention, of course, that the word 'homosexual' was not found in Paul's vocabulary. As for the Church of Corinth ...it seems that THAT was a Church that was just about as dysfunctional as a Church could ever get!
As for idolatry. For many Christians the BIBLE has become their idol. They believe it not to be a book containing words written by men but they consider it to be GOD Himself! How often do they say "God says" before quoting a text from the Bible? Some Christians - MANY Christians - are the biggest idol worshippers and they don't know it. . . .
Ah, the story-book marriage and 'the rules'. And they all lived happily ever after. unfortunately, in the real world that just ain't so. Fifty percent of all of these wonderful marriages end in divorce causing much heartache and creating dysfunctional families. Human beings are just naturally screw up. Apparently God knew that, Jesus knew that and, apparently, that's why He came so that He could 'un-screw' us by imputing His perfection on to us. Without that symbolism - no 'rules' per se - we would certainly never pass muster with God.
Sorry Rex ...I'm just joshin' with ya . . .
By the way, I have a brother by the name of Rex ...he lives on the Shetland Islands or did the last I heard . . .
Your arguments are rehashed propaganda and such trash seeks to ultimately undermine society. Bottom line is you're a disruptive influence and no good will come from this.
Hos_6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
It still comes down to men exposing there hearts to the world for all to see, and it is ugly.
Mat_9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Mat_12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Go and find out for yourselves, ask Jesus, He just may not agree with you all, if He did then we are all condemned or can you not see that.
in All His Love
It still comes down to men exposing there hearts to the world for all to see, and it is ugly.
Mat_9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Mat_12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Go and find out for yourselves, ask Jesus, He just may not agree with you all, if He did then we are all condemned or can you not see that.
in All His Love
Yes, there is a very small minority of homosexuals that want to have sex with underage boys, just like there are a small minority of heterosexual men that want to have sex with underage girls. And if anything, heterosexual men seducing underage girls is more acceptable, than homosexual men seducing underage boys.Axehead said:
There will always be biased arguments made using the fringe organization NAMBLA to imply that all gay men are members, and thus all gay men want to seduce young boys. This is like saying all heterosexual men want to have sex with underage girls because there are a few fringe Mormon churches that believe its OK for men to marry preteen girls and have sex with them. Using fringe groups as examples, even in Christianity, makes for a very biased and weak argument. Thankfully, over that past several decades the conscious awareness of the majority of people understand that sexual orientation will not predict if a man is going to commit a sex crime.
I find the above most insulting, especially coming from someone who knows NOTHING about my personal life. I have no other agenda, no home page, no so-called 'pink mafia' affiliations, nothing other than my take on the subject of homosexuality and Christianity and my participation on this and one other Christian Debate Forum. While it is true that this particular topic has become my main interest in past months - as it has among many Christians - I've participated in various other Christian topics over the years, particularly when I was a practicing member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.JB_Reformed Baptist said:
The above remarks from JB_Reformed Baptist are reminiscent of the centures old folk tale of Henny Penny (or Chicken Little). This is, as said, a folk tale with a moral in the form of a cumulative tale about a chicken who believes that the world is coming to an end. You see, an acorn falls on his head and he believes that the sky has begun to fall on him. The phrase, "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" features predominantly in the story, and has passed into the English language as a common idiom indicating a hysterical or mistaken belief that disaster of some description is imminent. This is the kind of thing that causes paranoia and mass hysteria and, at the very least, uneasiness and suspicion in the minds of the gullible. And, who are among the most gullible? So as not to offend I'll let the individual answer that question themselves. The fable's central phrase, "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" has been applied to people accused of being unreasonably afraid of 'something' that they can't quite put their finger on, or those trying to incite an unreasonable fear of that same mysterious 'something' in those around them. Such is the case with homosexuality and the false notion that the sky will eventually fall on us and life as we know it will come to an end because Adam and Steve who live down the street are sharing an intimate relationship together. The sky may fall, figuratively speaking, but it will not be due to homosexuality. It will be due to unbridled stupidity!
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
yep - anyone who doesn't toe the conservative protestant narrative regarding those nasty homosexuals MUST be part of the pink mafia - lol!!
CS Lewis must be turning over in his grave....
CS Lewis must be turning over in his grave....
- Status
Similar threads
