Homosexuality

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Is homosexuality a sin?


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aspen

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Rex said:
Not to sure about every member but the leaders have exorcised a complete disregard for scripture when it comes to extending "UNCONDITIONAL love" to it's clergy.
1 Cor 5:11
In fact the current condition of your church would benift from this very topic, that homosexuality is not a sin, they already practice it.
such is man
 

Rex

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In fact aspen the current condition of your church would benefit from this very topic, that homosexuality is not a sin, they already practice it.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit If we were to find out that inside the current conclave the topic of coming out or rooting out homosexuality within the church is being discussed right now.
 

aspen

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Rex said:
In fact aspen the current condition of your church would benefit from this very topic, that homosexuality is not a sin, they already practice it.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit If we were to find out that inside the current conclave the topic of coming out or rooting out homosexuality within the church is being discussed right now.
I know you would love to see the destruction of the Catholic Church, Rex, your message is crystal clear.
 

SilenceInMotion

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Rex said:
In fact aspen the current condition of your church would benefit from this very topic, that homosexuality is not a sin, they already practice it.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit If we were to find out that inside the current conclave the topic of coming out or rooting out homosexuality within the church is being discussed right now.
The Church does not allow clergy to have sexual relations, so how does the Church practice homosexuality?

Oh, because some clergymen broke their vows. Makes perfect sense. Now, allow me to compare all Baptists to Westboro. Oh wait, that's wrong, because Westboro isn't proper.

The more times a Protestant brings up those clergy, or any wrongs of clergymen in the past, it hurts Protestantism just a little more.

Protestant hisory: witch trials, slavery, banishment, catholic persecution, and pedophilia.

Yes, a Baptist minister was convicted of pedophilia.

Dang that pedophile ring, it should be put down!!!!

That's what you all sound like.
 

Axehead

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SilenceInMotion said:
The Church does not allow clergy to have sexual relations, so how does the Church practice homosexuality?

Oh, because some clergymen broke their vows. Makes perfect sense. Now, allow me to compare all Baptists to Westboro. Oh wait, that's wrong, because Westboro isn't proper.

The more times a Protestant brings up those clergy, or any wrongs of clergymen in the past, it hurts Protestantism just a little more.

Protestant hisory: witch trials, slavery, banishment, catholic persecution, and pedophilia.

Yes, a Baptist minister was convicted of pedophilia.

Dang that pedophile ring, it should be put down!!!!

That's what you all sound like.
SIM!! Some broke their vows? The Priest in a Catholic stands in the "place of Christ", according to your own teachings. Your same church has hidden and moved around these criminals by Bishops, some of who are now Cardinals.

As far as I and many others Christian and non-Christian and many Catholics are concerned, your church condones and encourages and covers up these crimes.

Here. Study up. BishopAccountability Then tell me it is not an imbedded culture in your religious organization.

And try not to be a blameshifter.

I would not call this Priest Database, "some".

You ought to be ashamed of yourself for minimizing this widespread abuse by people that stand in the place of Christ and command so much adulation from the "faithful".
 

Rex

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SilenceInMotion said:
The Church does not allow clergy to have sexual relations, so how does the Church practice homosexuality?

Oh, because some clergymen broke their vows. Makes perfect sense. Now, allow me to compare all Baptists to Westboro. Oh wait, that's wrong, because Westboro isn't proper.

The more times a Protestant brings up those clergy, or any wrongs of clergymen in the past, it hurts Protestantism just a little more.

Protestant hisory: witch trials, slavery, banishment, catholic persecution, and pedophilia.

Yes, a Baptist minister was convicted of pedophilia.

Dang that pedophile ring, it should be put down!!!!

That's what you all sound like.
I'll be the first to agree the Westboro Baptist are fruit cakes.

The more times a Protestant brings up those clergy, or any wrongs of
clergymen in the past, it hurts Protestantism just a little more.
I'm going to read between the lines on your quote, you really believe we, our "everyone's salvation" is indisputably linked with the RCC.


The difference is, the Baptist minister is probably in prison.
Where as your priest are not, and they continue to wear the filthy robes of the Catholic Church, that my friend is how the RCC allows clergy to have sexual relations, and practice homosexuality.
The Church does not allow clergy to have sexual relations, so how does the Church practice homosexuality?
Axehead said:
Rex, we're on the same wavelength, today. I was just going to say that.
We have never strand far from one another, never will
 

SilenceInMotion

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Rex said:
The difference is, the Baptist minister is probably in prison.
Where as your priest are not, and they continue to wear the filthy robes of the Catholic Church, that my friend is how the RCC allows clergy to have sexual relations, and practice homosexuality.
The Church is not in the business of condemning one based on accusation. That might be how do things, in fact in the world we live in now, accusation pretty much destroys your life all the same. It is vicious and unGodly.

Also, you like to go on about this and that, peace in Christ and overcoming sin, but at the drop of a dime, you issue prison to anyone who does something wrong. Maybe even death as well. You won't believe how many so called Christians I've heard say that they should be put to death. It's that sort of conviction that caused this absurd social condemnation to begin with.

Thee RCC is adamently against anything of pedophilia or homosexuality, that's it. Case closed. You do not get to abra kadabra that fact into what you want it to be *sort of like how Protestant doctrine was made*.
 

aspen

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you guys simply disavow any leader who doesn't measure up. the answer to scandal is certainly not to cover it up; but the protestant response of rebellion is even worse! deciding to declare a 'do over' every time some rogue Protestant leader acts like a human being only teaches us not to learn from history.
 

SilenceInMotion

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Axehead said:
SIM!! Some broke their vows? The Priest in a Catholic stands in the "place of Christ", according to your own teachings. Your same church has hidden and moved around these criminals by Bishops, some of who are now Cardinals.
Is there any evidence that they were ever guilty? Do you know how unrealistic it sounds to even conlude that ALL of those priests are pedophiles? If you knew someone was not a pedophile, would you still throw them in public where they would be demonized and spit on no matter if they were guilty or not?

Why you think nobody tries to take down the Church? Notice that for all the media bigotry and claims, including those such as yourself, no judge or authority is doing anything about it because all it is, is accusation and bullcrap media nonsense.

There have been priests whom have been stripped of clergy, and there are those who are in fact in prison. You're just a slave to the media- no, to the world. You don't transcend to far from the ground, that's for sure. Not you or anyone like you. And to think you all talk about Christ 'imputed righteousness' upon yourselves. Please. If I want to see a mass of saints, I'll find a mass being saints. Your end seems to be lacking, as doing the Lord's work doesn't consist of condemning the merely accused.
 

KCKID

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dragonfly said:
Hi KC,

Somehow I missed that in response to my statement of fact,

'The Light of the world is Jesus Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. That's a fact.'

you'd said, 'No. it's not. It's a belief. Very different.'


Does this mean you don't believe Jesus Christ actually exists or existed?
I've stated a number of times that I'm a believer in Jesus Christ; however, being a believer is no more than having 'the belief' that Jesus existed ...I can't prove that Jesus did exist and nor can you. You used the word 'fact' in your post in regard to Jesus' existence and that's what I responded to. A 'belief' and 'a fact' ARE very different.

By the way, there seems to be an air of suspicion among some Christians whenever another Christian might question anything pertaining to Jesus and/or scripture. Why is this?

KingJ said:
You seem to get more ignorant every post. You fail to grasp even the application of that verse.
As is so common when a Christian doesn't agree with another person's statement they resort to belittling that person. If nothing else you guys certainly don't disappoint! That said, even the ignorant might have something of value to contribute, KingJ, so listen up . . .

KingJ said:
If I love you, I tell you, ''you are in extreme sin'', ''you are en route to hell''.
My response, if I'm gay and don't believe my sexual orientation to be 'a sin' is, "Mind your own business and instead take care of the log in your own eye." Spoken 'in love', of course. Furthermore, I'm quoting Jesus.

KingJ said:
If I know there is a huge pothole on your route home and don't tell you, do I love you? If I am driving with you, do I not try turn the wheel for you / do whatever it takes to get you to take the safe route? You will not like me for trying my best to get you to take the long and difficult route home, but you will certainly dislike me alot more if I said and did nothing. You will die in that pothole and for the rest of eternity bear a grudge against me. Is that what you want?
Once again, my response, if I'm gay and don't believe my sexual orientation to be 'a sin', would be, "Mind your own business and instead take care of the log in your own eye."

KingJ said:
Now do you see why the respected Christians here really do NOT like your view?
Of course I do. It's almost complimentary. :)

dragonfly said:
Hi KC,


If you scan the NT for other examples of demon possession, would you be as keen in incorporate them into society? Let's say, the cannibals, the murderers and rapists?
Well, this is the second attempt at responding to this post. The first time - don't know if it was my connection or the forum - there was a hickup somewhere and I lost everything.

Anyway, are we responsible adults or kids believing in fairy stories, dragonfly? Demons? In all of my life and travels around this great world I have never yet come across anyone that I would refer to as being 'demon possessed'. As for the charge that homosexuals are somehow 'demon possessed' ...how ludicrous! As for comparing someone with a same-sex attraction with cannibals (cannibals!?!), murderers and rapists I can't bring myself to respond to that any more than I just did.

dragonfly said:
The fact is, that as human beings, homosexuals have adequate freedom to be who they are sexually, in privacy, which is the law for everyone.
Well, there ya go, we're in agreement. I don't know that anyone has ever suggested that homosexuals practice sex in Church or in any other public place. Good point raised, however, since public performances of both homosexual and heterosexual sex as in pagan worship rituals are what Paul, Jude, et all were referencing in 'those' texts. If the apostles objected to what members of their church were doing in private we will never know. They would not have known who was doing what with whom in private either.

dragonfly said:
The requirement to have a marriage certificate is a completely different discussion than the right of a man and a woman to covenant with each other to be faithful to each other until death parts them. Nothing prevents homosexuals making that kind of commitment to one another and fulfilling it.

All the legal jargon and paraphernalia around possessions and inheritance can be covered by appropriate legal arrangements which will bind both parties to fulfil what has been agreed. The palaver around bringing the term 'marriage' into homosexual relations is a whopping red herring.
I can't give the above the attention that it probably deserves since I have to head off for work. Thanks for the discussion, though.
 

dragonfly

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Apr 19, 2012
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Hi aspen,

I'm sorry you wrote this:

you guys simply disavow any leader who doesn't measure up.
That's because there are inflexible standards in the NT, which are attainable to those who know the Lord. This one springs to mind immediately:

A bishop [church leader, elder, responsible brother] then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that rules well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, [body] how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.


The measuring is done long before they are given this much responsibility, and if they fall after they are given such responsibility, they have to step down for a season at least, if not permanently.

I didn't make up the standard Paul defines. Regardless of human opinion, it is attainable with God's grace.



Hi KC,

I've stated a number of times that I'm a believer in Jesus Christ; however, being a believer is no more than having 'the belief' that Jesus existed ...I can't prove that Jesus did exist and nor can you. You used the word 'fact' in your post in regard to Jesus' existence and that's what I responded to. A 'belief' and 'a fact' ARE very different.
Indeed they are very different.

I accept that your 'faith' is based on your 'belief' that 'Jesus existed'.

My statement is based on my knowledge of Him. I know Him. I know He is alive. I know He is who and what scripture declares Him to be. It is not for me to prove that to you. The Lord can prove that to you, if you so desire.
 

aspen

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well, drgonfly, i think you misunderstood my use of the word 'disavow' and you refusing to acknowledge that western society used to believe that pedophilia was a sickness, not a crime before 1980. yes, the catholic church has failed to get up to speed with society who know views it as a crime for life. many churches and schools and groups that work with children are facing the same problems. unfortunately for the catholic church it is viewed as having a systemic problem, while all incidents outside the church are treated as isolated.
 

SilenceInMotion

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It's currently illegal for unmarried couples to live together in Virginia. An 1877 law was recently dug up that never became nulled. Lol.

Funny how we went from one extreme to another. It used to be that unmarried couples couldn't live together, and now Christians are trying to make homosexual marriage legitimate.

So much for that kosher in between. Society is always producing something outrageous, and yet it's people like myself who supposedly have something wrong with them.
 

Rex

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The
new reality Jesus proclaimed was nonviolent. That much is clear, not just from the Sermon on the Mount, but his entire life and teaching and, above all, the way he faced his death. His was not merely a tactical or pragmatic nonviolence seized upon because nothing else would have
worked against the Roman empire's near monopoly on violence. Rather, he saw nonviolence as a direct corollary of the nature of God and of the new reality emerging in the world from God. In a verse quoted more than any other from the New Testament during the church's first four
centuries, Jesus taught that God loves everyone, and values all, even those who make themselves God's enemies. We are therefore to do
likewise (Matt. 5:45; cf. Luke 6:35). The Reign of God, the peaceable Kingdom, is (despite the monarchical terms) an order in which the inequity, violence, and male supremacy characteristic of dominator societies are superseded. Thus nonviolence is not just a means to the Kingdom of God; it is a quality of the Kingdom itself. - Walter Wink
Say aspen I see from your signature your a fan of Walter Wink, now I know where you get your love and bubbles trumps doctrine theology.
To bad he passed away it must have been a terrible loss at soulforce http://www.soulforce.org/

I would like to post a short commentary Mr Winks wrote about biblical homosexuality.
It rather amazing how Mr Winky systematically disarms every instance of homosexual behavior or warning in the bible and justifies it under the umbrella of the LOVE --->>> two men have for one another <<<---
Here's the full commentary http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1265



Biblical Perspectives on Homosexuality

by Walter Wink

No more divisive issue faces the churches of this
country today than the question of ordaining homosexuals. Like the issue of
slavery a century ago, it has the potential for splitting entire denominations.
And like the issue of slavery, the argument revolves around the interpretation
of Scripture. What does the Bible say about homosexuality, and how are we to
apply it to this tormented question?


We may begin by excluding all references to
Sodom in the Old and New Testaments, since the sin of the Sodomites was
homosexual rape, carried out by heterosexuals intent on humiliating
strangers by treating them “like women,” thus demasculinizing them. (This is
also the case in a similar account in Judges 19-21.) Their brutal gang-rape has
nothing to do with the problem of whether genuine love expressed between consenting
persons of the same sex is legitimate or not. Likewise Deuteronomy 23:17-18
must be pruned from the list, since it most likely refers to a heterosexual
“stud” involved in Canaanite fertility rites that have infiltrated Jewish
worship; the King James Version inaccurately labeled him a “sodomite.”


Several other texts are ambiguous. It is not
clear whether I Corinthians 6:9 and I Timothy 1:10 refer to the “passive” and
“active” partners in homosexual relationships, or to homosexual and
heterosexual male prostitutes. In short, it is unclear whether the issue is
homosexuality alone, or promiscuity and “sex-for-hire.”


Unequivocal Condemnations

With these texts eliminated, we are left with
three references, all of which unequivocally condemn homosexuality. Leviticus
18:22 states the principle:


“You [masculine] shall not lie-with a male as
with a woman; it is an abomination.” The second (Lev. 20:13) adds the penalty:
“If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an
abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.”


Such an act was regarded as an “abomination” for
several reasons. The Hebrew prescientific understanding was that male semen
contained the whole of nascent life. With no knowledge of eggs and ovulation, it
was assumed that the woman provided only the incubating space. Hence the
spilling of semen for any nonprocreative purpose -- in coitus
interruptus (Gen. 38:1-11), male homosexual acts or male masturbation -- was
considered tantamount to abortion or murder. (Female homosexual acts and
masturbation were consequently not so seriously regarded.) One can appreciate
how a tribe struggling to populate a country in which its people were
outnumbered would value procreation highly, but such values are rendered questionable
in a world facing total annihilation through overpopulation.

In addition, when a man acted like a woman
sexually, male dignity was compromised. It was a degradation, not only
in regard to himself, but for every other male. The patriarchalism of Hebrew
culture shows its hand in the very formulation of the commandment, since no
similar stricture was formulated to forbid homosexual acts between females. On
top of that is the more universal repugnance heterosexuals tend to feel for
acts and orientations foreign to them. (Left-handedness has evoked something of
the same response in many cultures.)


Whatever the rationale for their formulation,
however, the texts leave no room for maneuvering. Persons committing homosexual
acts are to be executed. The meaning is clear: anyone who wishes to base his or
her beliefs on the witness of the Old Testament must be completely consistent
and demand the death penalty for everyone who performs homosexual acts. This
was in fact the case until fairly recent times -- hence the name “faggots,”
which homosexuals earned while burning at the stake. Even though no tribunal is
likely to execute homosexuals ever again, a shocking number of gays are
murdered by “straights” every year in this country.


The third text is Romans 1:26-27, which, like
Leviticus 18 and 20, unequivocally denounces homosexual behavior:


For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable
passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men
likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion
for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their
own persons the due penalty for their error.


No doubt Paul was unaware of the distinction
between sexual orientation, over which one has apparently very little choice,
and sexual behavior. He apparently assumes that those whom he condemns are
heterosexual, and are acting contrary to nature, “leaving,” “giving up,” or
“exchanging” their regular sexual orientation for that which is foreign to
them. Paul knew nothing of the modern psychosexual understanding of homosexuals
as persons whose orientation is fixed early in life, persons for whom having
heterosexual relations would be acting contrary to nature, “leaving,” “giving
up” or “exchanging” their usual sexual orientation.
 

JackSafari

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SilenceInMotion said:
Yes, the road is narrow. I don't know if you realized it or not, but Revelation is not coming to a few, it's coming to all the huge majority you think God's great design and awareness is being tapped from.

Christianity tells about how the world will try to victimize and hate those who stand for righteousness. You are COMPLETELY on the wrong end of that. You need to rethink your status as a Christian. The churches you so adore for calling sin and idolatry acceptable are the churches that Hell is actively prevailing against (Matthew 16:18). I pity any church that commits sacrilege, because the world is just going to swallow them anyway. God is going to simply hand them over to their own deceptive death.
Prophecies are not a concern of mine, and I see nothing to suggest they have any relevance on how we should make good\healthy social polices. I think more in terms of "What would Jesus do?", who is one of the great spiritual leaders in history of world. I believe he would accept all sexual orientations without any conditions\judgement, and thus so should society. I do understand such acceptance will not happen instantly, but it is happening, and will continue to happen.
 

SilenceInMotion

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JackSafari said:
I believe he would accept all sexual orientations without any conditions\judgement
1 Corinthian 6:9
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul disagrees with you.
 

aspen

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rex - interesting read, thanks for posting it. i know basically nothing about Walter Wink. i just liked his quote.
 

JackSafari

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SilenceInMotion said:
1 Corinthian 6:9
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul disagrees with you.
IMHO, God gave every person the ability to think for themselves, and develop good judgement to make wise decisions, which I feel trumps anything that is written long ago. I stick to my basic thinking "What would Jesus do?". and I don't see him condemning\rejecting anyone while pointing to the bible saying "You failed to adhere to....", and if I met some guy claiming to be Jesus who did say something like that, I would walk away knowing he wasn't.
 
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