Controversial... Hence debate forum.

Oceanprayers · Jan 26, 2022

JohnPaul said:
You really think Muslims want to hear the gospel? Try it and see if you make it home with your head on your shoulders.

Well, that depends on where you live.
Actual practicing Muslims in America deny the gospel because its tenets vonflict with the identity of Isa.
If they accept the Gospel they are reckoned as Apostates and-or Kafir, by islams standards.

In Muslim countries that same behavior can result in death. But mainly the family and friends of the Kaffir or the Apostate try to bring them back into the fold. Death is the extreme.

Curtis · Jan 26, 2022

Aunty Jane said:
Actually Jesus was speaking about his kingdom, which is a governmental arrangement with himself as its appointed king.
A "kingdom" is a "king" and the "dom"ain over which he rules. He said that his kingdom was "no part of this world". (John 18:36)
Jesus' own example proves that he was not there to meddle in the politics of the day because the "Times of the Gentiles" had not yet been completed. Only then would he intervene on his Father's behalf and bring about justice for his oppressed and persecuted disciples. (John 15:18-21)
The coming of this kingdom would see all flawed and corrupt human rulership "crushed" out of existence. (Daniel 2:44) Will you be voting for these ones?

I think you are forgetting who controls the world and through whom he does so......satan offered Jesus "all the kingdoms of the world", so how could that actually be a temptation if they were not his to give? Jesus did not refute his claim but simply told him that God alone was to be worshipped. (Luke 4:5-8)

So, we are to be NO PART of that world....the one alienated from God and under the control of the devil. (1 John 5:19)

Voting for human rulers means that you have to accept responsibility for what they do because you helped to put them there.
Being "NO PART of the world" means exactly what Jesus said and he showed us what that meant.....no political meddling, obedience to the ruling authorities as long as it it did not contravene God's laws, and being a good law-abiding citizen, not a political 'rebel' but a political 'neutral'. The ruling authorities should have no fingers to point at Christ's disciples who do not incite others except to be "peaceful with all men" and to "love and fine works". (Romans 12:17-21; Hebrews 10:24-25)

Being 'in the world but not of it' was what Jesus was.....so I'll follow his example....it includes morality, but more importantly it means being no part of the devil's world governmental system. You can justify whatever course you wish. I am not your judge.
I am simply telling you what the Bible says.....the parts you choose to ignore.

What does history tell us about those Christians who were in the military prior to becoming followers of Christ....?

Early Christians refused to serve in the Roman army, in both the legions and auxilia, considering such service as wholly incompatible with the teachings of Christianity.

Justin Martyr, of the second century C.E., in his “Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew” (CX): “We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage.” (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I, p. 254)

In his treatise “The Chaplet, or De Corona” (XI), when discussing “whether warfare is proper at all for Christians,” Tertullian (c. 200 C.E.) argued from Scripture the unlawfulness even of a military life itself, concluding, “I banish from us the military life.”—The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 1957, Vol. III, pp. 99, 100.

“A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [121-180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.” (The Rise of Christianity, by E. W. Barnes, 1947, p. 333)

Confirming this....“It will be seen presently that the evidence for the existence of a single Christian soldier between 60 and about 165 A.D. is exceedingly slight; . . . up to the reign of Marcus Aurelius at least, no Christian would become a soldier after his baptism.” (The Early Church and the World, by C. J. Cadoux, 1955, pp. 275, 276)

“In the second century, Christianity . . . had affirmed the incompatibility of military service with Christianity.” (A Short History of Rome, by G. Ferrero and C. Barbagallo, 1919, p. 382)

“The behavior of the Christians was very different from that of the Romans. . . . Since Christ had preached peace, they refused to become soldiers.” (Our World Through the Ages, by N. Platt and M. J. Drummond, 1961, p. 125)

“The first Christians thought it was wrong to fight, and would not serve in the army even when the Empire needed soldiers.” (The New World’s Foundations in the Old, by R. and W. M. West, 1929, p. 131)

“The Christians . . . shrank from public office and military service.” (Editorial introduction to “Persecution of the Christians in Gaul, A.D. 177,” in The Great Events by Famous Historians, edited by R. Johnson, 1905, Vol. III, p. 246)

“While they [the Christians] inculcated the maxims of passive obedience, they refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . It was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”—The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, by Edward Gibbon, Vol. I, p. 416.

Need more evidence?

First of all, I won’t trust any quotes you got from your watchtower website, because I personally know they misquote sources, having read their quote from encyclopedia Brittanica on the trinity, where they edited it to say there’s no trinity found in the Bible - because I happened to have a set of those at the time and looked it up.

And isn’t it an amazing coincidence that a biblical languages professor said the NWT translation is dishonest?

Secondly, there’s too much scripture, such as Romans 13, and the fact Jesus said nothing to a centurion about being a soldier not being compatible with faith in Him, and the need to leave Roman military - he just complemented and commended his very strong faith - thus no matter how many might misunderstand scripture, I know the facts about that topic.

Or 1 Peter 2:13-15 that says if your government drafted you to fight in a war, you must obey and submit to it, and fight, by telling you to obey the government authorities as they fight against wrong doers.

In Romans 13:1-5 the government leader taking a sword against evil doers is called His servant.

quietthinker · Jan 27, 2022

Backlit said:
KJV Luke 4:18-19
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Are there any Muslims who aren't poor, broken, blind, bruised or in prison?
KJV Mark 16:15
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
So. In answer to your question, do I think Muslims really want to hear the gospel, I don't know. But they need to hear the gospel, we are told to preach the gospel, and the fact is they are responding to the gospel throughout the world.
More Muslims convert to Christianity than ever before

a fascinating article!

quietthinker · Jan 27, 2022

Oceanprayers said:
Well, that depends on where you live.
Actual practicing Muslims in America deny the gospel because its tenets vonflict with the identity of Isa.
If they accept the Gospel they are reckoned as Apostates and-or Kafir, by islams standards.

In Muslim countries that same behavior can result in death. But mainly the family and friends of the Kaffir or the Apostate back into the fold. Death is the extreme.

I see, no credit to the author!

Curtis · Jan 27, 2022

Aunty Jane said:
Being 'in the world but not of it' was what Jesus was.....so I'll follow his example....it includes morality, but more importantly it means being no part of the devil's world governmental system. You can justify whatever course you wish. I am not your judge.
I am simply telling you what the Bible says.....the parts you choose to ignore.

I bet you drive on government roads, I bet if you had a fire you would call the fire department and use that government service, and if your life was in danger from a criminal you would call the police department and use that government service.

Do you use government sewers that run from your toilet? Do you drink water from the faucet that comes from the city municipal water department?

I bet you do. So you you are part of the world yourself. Why aren’t you living out in the woods somewhere where you’re not need government roads government water fire department government police department etc.

Aunty Jane · Jan 27, 2022

Curtis said:
First of all, I won’t trust any quotes you got from your watchtower website, because I personally know they misquote sources, having read their quote from encyclopedia Brittanica on the trinity, where they edited it to say there’s no trinity found in the Bible - because I happened to have a set of those at the time and looked it up.

I don't believe I quoted the Encyclopedia Brittanica.....

There is quite a variety of sources that I did quote.....and you picked one that I didn't.

How abaout the New Catholic Encyclopedia which states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

Or perhaps some of these.....?
Comparative Religion: Trinity, The Innovated Doctrine

Curtis said:
And isn’t it an amazing coincidence that a biblical languages professor said the NWT translation is dishonest?

No, actually what is amazing is that this biblical language professor (who is obviously nameless) didn't have something to say about other translations that disagree with his viewpoint.....tell me he's not a trinitarian...

Curtis said:
Secondly, there’s too much scripture, such as Romans 13, and the fact Jesus said nothing to a centurion about being a soldier not being compatible with faith in Him, and the need to leave Roman military - he just complemented and commended his very strong faith - thus no matter how many might misunderstand scripture, I know the facts about that topic.

Well, you are ignoring Jesus words at Matthew 5:43-44....how do you 'love you enemy' with a gun or a bomb? Do you tell them you love them and pray for them, before or after you kill them?

Being in subjection to governmental authorities has its limits. When the apostles were arrested for their preaching and brought before the Sanhedrin....."The high priest interrogated them, 28 saying, “We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this Man’s blood upon us.” 29 But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men." (Acts 5:27-29) No man can tell us to DO what Jesus taught us not to....and no man can tell us NOT to do what God commands.

Jesus expressly taught his disciples to be "no part of the world", which includes its bloodshed. (Isaiah 1:15)
God's Kingdom is not compatible with man's corrupt kingdoms. Jesus and his angelic forces will soon destroy them all. (Daniel 2:44)

Curtis said:
Or 1 Peter 2:13-15 that says if your government drafted you to fight in a war, you must obey and submit to it, and fight, by telling you to obey the government authorities as they fight against wrong doers.

No, sorry, you are ignoring the rest of Christ's teachings to focus on the interpretation of one that gives you permission for your patriotism to conquer your Christianity. Who do you obey...? God or man?

Curtis said:
In Romans 13:1-5 the government leader taking a sword against evil doers is called His servant.

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except by God, and those that exist are put in place by God. 2 So then, the one who resists authority resists the ordinance which is from God, and those who resist will receive condemnation on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of terror for a good deed, but for bad conduct. So do you want not to be afraid of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from it, 4 for it is God’s servant to you for what is good. But if you do what is bad, be afraid, because it does not bear the sword to no purpose. For it is God’s servant, the one who avenges for punishment on the one who does what is bad. 5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath but also because of conscience." (LEB)

First of all, no authority would exist except by God's permission. When God delivered world rulership over to the devil it was not to be a free for all.....there were rules attached or none of us would be here. These governmental authorities would rule for the benefit of his own people who had to live in the world. It bears the sword for their sakes, keeping a measure of peace and security so that Christ's disciples could carry out their commission. (Matthew 24:14) This is how these are God's servants. But sanctioning wars is something that God has not done since the days when Israel defended their own God-given land. No nation on earth today has land that is 'God given', and no Christian can engage in bloodshed without God's sanction. There is no such thing as a "just" politically motivated war.

We have to hold a good conscience. That is impossible with blood on our hands.

Aunty Jane · Jan 27, 2022

Curtis said:
I bet you drive on government roads, I bet if you had a fire you would call the fire department and use that government service, and if your life was in danger from a criminal you would call the police department and use that government service.

Do you use government sewers that run from your toilet? Do you drink water from the faucet that comes from the city municipal water department?

I bet you do. So you you are part of the world yourself. Why aren’t you living out in the woods somewhere where you’re not need government roads government water fire department government police department etc.

Good grief.....

Do we pay taxes? We do, and so we are entitled to use those utilities along with everyone else who pays taxes.
Do you ever stop and think about what you say? The governments are there to serve us.....we are not there to serve them.

JohnPaul · Jan 27, 2022

Oceanprayers said:
I also watched the towers collapse. Heard the explosions.
If you watch an implosion demolition of a highrise, and compare that side by side with the towers, they're the same.

The Bush and bin Laden families had a relationship for years before 911.
On 9-11 when all aircraft were grounded after the attacks, the only plane allowed to enter our airspace was the private jet that carried the bin Laden family out of New York.
Harvard receives money from the family.

How odd after the attacks, some news agencies showed the terrorists, now dead, as they made their way through the airport. Names and all.

Some were on terrorist watch lists but gained entry into America anyway. And how would the news know the names of all the terrorists? When we're to believe only one flights flight attendant contacted the tower and gave the names and seat numbers of her flights hijackers.

These fools are holding plane loads of passengers hostage using box cutters, according to reports, and one flight's attendant is able to get to a radio and read names from part of the flight manifest to the tower?

But on that September day America changed forever.

And what precipitated that is the same story as throughout history on many different levels. Both secular and religious. Fear.

Induce fear into a population. And then introduce a solution that is promised to remove or resolve the fear. Label people not amenable to the solution as putting the public good at risk. Call them selfish, traitors.
Induce compliance from the majority by appealing to group think and conscience.

Make the concession appear to be for the good of everyone. Cast aspersions upon those who don't agree. Cast an us vs. them narrative into the arena of public opinion.And proceed with new restrictive policies regardless of public outcry. Because it's for "the good of the country."

Because before, you know, liberty, autonomy, and freedom weren't .

Those buildings were designed in case of a catastrophe to pancake the way they did, it was explained.

I worked at a Pharmaceutical company back in the late 80's, the company was centered right in the middle of a neighborhood, one of the buildings where one of the labs were had an explosion, luckily during the night hours when no one was in the building, the building was designed to implode and not explode, and that's just what happened, had the building exploded the neighbors would have suffered catastrophic consequences, no surrounding homes were harmed.

Architectural Engineers can design a building a certain way in case of a catastrophe natural or manmade like 9/11.

JohnPaul · Jan 27, 2022

Oceanprayers said:
Well, that depends on where you live.
Actual practicing Muslims in America deny the gospel because its tenets vonflict with the identity of Isa.
If they accept the Gospel they are reckoned as Apostates and-or Kafir, by islams standards.

In Muslim countries that same behavior can result in death. But mainly the family and friends of the Kaffir or the Apostate back into the fold. Death is the extreme.

Yes I know in some Muslim countries, conversion from Islam is the death penalty.

Oceanprayers · Jan 27, 2022

JohnPaul said:
Yes I know in some Muslim countries, conversion from Islam is the death penalty.

On YouTube there are videos of supposed former Christian women who converted to Islam giving their testimony
in how wonderful and at peace they feel now.
One woman, I think she said she was a reporter visiting a Muslim country to do a story when the Azan, the call to prayer, rose like a chorus because of all the mosques heralds making the call at the same time. She wept. Shortly after she became a Muslim.
I admit a great voice does make for a beautiful Azan.

Those former Christian women need to get a travel visa and journey to a Sharia ruled Muslim nation.
Bringing their western female Muslim ideal with them. If they should survive to return home later I've no doubt they'll run back to the cross. Where God shall await to welcome them home.

Oceanprayers · Jan 27, 2022

JohnPaul said:
Those buildings were designed in case of a catastrophe to pancake the way they did, it was explained.

I worked at a Pharmaceutical company back in the late 80's, the company was centered right in the middle of a neighborhood, one of the buildings where one of the labs were had an explosion, luckily during the night hours when no one was on the building, the building was designed to implode and not explode, and that's just what happened, had the building exploded the neighbors would have suffered catastrophic consequences, no surrounding homes were harmed.

Architectural Engineers can design a building a certain way in case of a catastrophe natural or manmade like 9/11.

A plane didn't fly into tower 7. It collapsed in the same way as its two sister towers anyway.

TWIN TOWER ELEVATORS FACE TOUGH INSPECTIONS

The towers never had fire safety inspections.

This is old news. We're living with what came after. Including laws and federal regulations that changed America as we know it for the worse pre-2001. And there's no going back or repeal in sight in future.

Oceanprayers · Jan 27, 2022

quietthinker said:
I see, no credit to the author!

LOL Ohhhh, OK. If I must and since you don't know yourself, Muhammad. That would be the author, though I don't know I'd call it a credit.

JohnPaul · Jan 27, 2022

Oceanprayers said:
A plane didn't fly into tower 7. It collapsed in the same way as it's two sister towers anyway.

TWIN TOWER ELEVATORS FACE TOUGH INSPECTIONS

The towers never had fire safety inspections.

This is old news. We're living with what came after. Including laws and federal regulations that changed America as we know it for the worse pre-2001. And there's no going back or repeal in sight in future.

Perhaps building 7 collapsed do to the quaking of the ground from the force of the planes hitting the Towers and weakened its foundation due to the Towers collapsing.

Oceanprayers · Jan 27, 2022

JohnPaul said:
Perhaps yielding 7 collapsed do to the quaking of the ground from the force of the planes hitting the Towers and weakened its foundation due to the Towers collapsing.

The video is on YouTube. See for yourself.

Oceanprayers · Jan 27, 2022

Curtis said:
First of all, I won’t trust any quotes you got from your watchtower website, because I personally know they misquote sources, having read their quote from encyclopedia Brittanica on the trinity, where they edited it to say there’s no trinity found in the Bible - because I happened to have a set of those at the time and looked it up.

And isn’t it an amazing coincidence that a biblical languages professor said the NWT translation is dishonest?

Secondly, there’s too much scripture, such as Romans 13, and the fact Jesus said nothing to a centurion about being a soldier not being compatible with faith in Him, and the need to leave Roman military - he just complemented and commended his very strong faith - thus no matter how many might misunderstand scripture, I know the facts about that topic.

Or 1 Peter 2:13-15 that says if your government drafted you to fight in a war, you must obey and submit to it, and fight, by telling you to obey the government authorities as they fight against wrong doers.

In Romans 13:1-5 the government leader taking a sword against evil doers is called His servant.

Watchtower? Aunty is JW then. That explains her former posts to me denying Jesus divinity , and the rest.
Thanks for clearing that up.

JohnPaul · Jan 27, 2022

Oceanprayers said:
The video is on YouTube. See for yourself.

Sorry for the typo I meant building, autocorrect from my iPhone.

I have seen the video many of times.

amadeus · Jan 27, 2022

Oceanprayers said:
Romans 23:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

Amen! And nothing good belongs to Caesar nor to any of us. It all belongs to God. What kind of stewards are we now? Are any human government officials more than stewards according to God?

Oceanprayers · Jan 27, 2022

amadeus said:
Amen! And nothing good belongs to Caesar nor to any of us. It all belongs to God. What kind of stewards are we now? Are any human government officials more than stewards according to God?

I think we also have to consider the government that exist in this world. All of them. Even the United Nations.
Nations United.

Oceanprayers · Jan 27, 2022

JohnPaul said:
Sorry for the typo I meant building, autocorrect from my iPhone.

I have seen the video many of times.

I have a Smart Phone that has the autocorrect feature. Which is why I come back and edit typos after it "corrects" what I intended be written. Only it does so after I've moved down the page a bit.

Sneaky slow wrong autocorrect.lol

amadeus · Jan 27, 2022

Oceanprayers said:
I think we also have to consider the government that exist in this world. All of them. Even the United Nations.
Nations United.

We have to consider them because God put them in places as well... but being dead [anyone who has not received and accepted the Life Jesus brought] they also are not owners, even though they might disagree with me.
Give God the glory!

Controversial... Hence debate forum.

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