Secure Eternal Salvation

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Renniks

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Even though Jesus was just baptized with water and the Spirit came down upon him and right after that he told Nicodemus to be born again is thru water and Spirit Jesus wasn't talking about the water of baptism? Fascinating. From whom did you learn that? And why do you believe them and not 2,000 years of Christian teachings?

Have you been taught or do you believe that water baptism is a necessary thing for Christians to do?
Why would Jesus tell Nicodemus that he must be baptized to be saved, even though he was still under the Old Covenant?

What Jesus was doing was explaining to Nicodemus his need to be “born from above” or “born again.”

When Jesus told Nicodemus that he must “be born of water and the Spirit,” He was not referring to literal water but was referring to the need for spiritual cleansing. In this passage Jesus is the water, as he told the woman at the well. He's the living water that saves.
Jesus used figurative language more often than not.
After all, he had to explain that he wasn't literally saying to be physically born again but you want to believe that the water part was literal?
Of course it's both Jesus and the Holy Spirit that save, so both provide the " water" of redemption.
Born again,” “born from above,” and “born of water and Spirit” are three ways of saying the same thing.
 

Illuminator

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The Bereans accepted Paul’s oral preaching as the Word of God even before they searched the Scriptures.
Acts 17:10-11 (King James Version)

10) And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind...
Whose WORD did they receive from? Using this verse to defend "sola scriptura" backfires. Paul's oral preaching is as valid as the scriptures they searched. It's both/and, not either/or. Paul's oral preaching is the word they received first, not second. Otherwise they would have branded Paul a heretic. They didn't. That's why they were fair minded.
 
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Illuminator

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I can't find "Illuminator is the source of truth" in the Bible, hmm...
This is not a reply, it's a temper tantrum. You cannot find one verse in Scripture that says Scripture is the only infallible authority of God’s word, and you base everything on a false presumption (insane Martin Luther pulled it out of thin air), and expect everyone to follow your rules. You cannot find one verse in Scripture that says Scripture is the only infallible authority of God’s word, presuming it's there doesn't cut it.
 

BreadOfLife

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Deflective response.
The Lord sprinkling water on ISRAEL is not Water Baptism, as you were saying.
It is ABSOLUTELY a prophecy abpout Baptism as it speraks about receiving a NEW SPIRIT..

Your unwillingness to admit to this is embedded inyour total hatred for the Church and nothing else.
John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of WATER and the SPIRIT, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Acts 2:37-38
Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and to the other apostles, "Brothers, what should we do?" Peter said to them, "Repent, and be BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT.

Tit. 3:4-8
but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the HOLY SPIRIT.


It's as plain as the nose on your face - but YOU will continire to reject it because then you would have yto agree with the Church.
 

BreadOfLife

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Not the means.
You've GOT to be kidding - the NAES???

Sooooo - YOU referredthe God-created rituals of Water Baptism (John 3:5, Matt. 28:19, Acts 2:38, 1 Pet. 2:31) and Anointing of the sick (James 2:14) as "man-made rituals" - which I easily debunked by showing you from Scripture that they were instituted by GOD Himself.

And now - ALL you can say is is that the NAMES of these God-ordained rituals rituals came from men??
Tallk about a pathetic reach . . .

Tell me - WHO named these Protestant doctrines??
Sola Scriptura
Sola Fide
Eternal Security
Limited Atonement

How about the word "Bible" - which is NOT in the Bible?
Your argument is as pathetic as your inability to disprove Water Baptism . . .
 

Eternally Grateful

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OK....so the "water" in "water and Spirit" is water but that water is only a symbol for spiritual cleansing. Is that what you are saying?
I did not say either.

There are two possibilities.

What we know is what is is not

Since Jesus did not mention water in his words of HOW one is born again, or baptism, we know it is NOT water baptism.
What is "Believers Baptism"? Is it when you start believing that Jesus is The Lord and Saviour?
Its when a believer who is truly born again gives his testimony and is immersed in water in front of many people

You never did answer me, Were you fully immersed in baptism or sprinkled?
Maybe Nicodemus understood Christian baptism because Jesus had just been baptized with water by John in the Jordan and the Spirit came down upon him HENCE 'water and spirit'. Nicodemus made the connection. The men who are teaching you didn't.
maybe? We don't interpret the word by maybe, We also do not know if Nicodemus knew Jesus was baptized or not. that's just mere speculation. We also do not know how long after the baptism even this conversation again, more speculation.

If jesus said baptism, then and only then would we know nicodemus would have guessed baptism.

buit the fact once again when Jesus explained HOW to be born again, He left the word baptize out. should be the greatest clue as to the fact baptism is not referenced here.

If your men have taught you that the faith is enough for salvation, then what do we do with Jesus’ declaration, “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:5) PLUS “He who believes and is baptized will be saved” (Mark 16:16) PLUS “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38)?

Are you trying to convince me that those three passages don't have anything in common? They don't all speak of water baptism and what it DOES?

Mary

let look at the fact.

If you were correct. This is what Jesus would have told Nicodemus

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him AND IS BAPTIZED should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him AND IS BAPTIZED should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.


18 “He who believes in Him AND IS BAPTIZED is not condemned; but he who does not believe OR BELIEVES BUT IS NOT BAPTIZED is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God OR DID NOT OBEY THE SON OF GOD BY GETTING BAPTIZED. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

You see, I have read many bibles. looked in many Greek manuscripts. Even looked at the bible the catholic churches use. And in all cases. the highlighted words of the importance and requirement of baptism is. You would think, something so essential to being born again would be mentioned? Not to mention. Jesus said whoever did became born again would never die. but live forever.

so you see two strikes against the belief that water is baptism.


 

Eternally Grateful

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Nope, I have made many arguments against your hereteical teachings. Soooooo that is not all I want to or have argued. Are you not going to answer the question?

Keeping it real....Mary

we have answered the question so many times, We have lost track

The church is not a physical entity, it is a spiritual one. While it has physical leaders. even the jewish church was corrupt. Because anytime you put men in power. it just takes a few men and an army to take what was pure and undefiled to destroy it.

My heresy?? I would laugh if I was not so saddened that you can not see the truth of the gospel
 
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Eternally Grateful

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RC Sproul did in the video.
Are there any protestant churches that get a lot wrong??? Absolutely. Lets see, methodist, disciples of Christ, pentecostal, basically any arminianism church.
she is stuck in the morals of Catholicism

it is here against the world. If your not with her (her church) your against her (her church)

hence you can put everyone under the same and make them one.. She does not realise quite a few so called protestant denominations is really not much different than here. they just reject the pope.
 

Eternally Grateful

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EG, you crack me up.
Nope, it's not about me. It's about calling out hypocrisy. Plain and simple.
Love it when you call yourself out.
And once again you didn't answer any of my questions. Par for the course. Instead, you went on the attack and attempted to belittle me. You made an excuse for Pearl's hypocrisy and I called you out on it. I hurt your feelings and I apologize for that.
You hurt my feelings?

Typical, you have to puff yourself up.

Again, I answered all your questions, we all have. You don;t like getting called out. thats not our fault..

Talk about being "sick of hearing the same old accusations". Have you read what your fellow Protestants have written on here about The Church?

At least Catholics don't make the excuse that evidence was burned therefor I can't present you any evidence.....;)
Yeah, I mean, facts don;t mean anything to you. As long as one of your leaders said it its ok.

The truth is, the roman church did burn all heretical writings, Your own church admits this.
We give our evidence that started with men who were students of the Apostles. You know them already: The Apostolic Fathers. That's our evidence. Your evidence is the teaching of men from the 16th century.....yikes.

Mary
There were many so called apostles and false teachers already in the church, mentioned in scripture.

The fact is, If they were the true church they would teach the truth of the word

But you do not want to look at the word. all you care about is history.

The ones in power write history.

so no one in their right mind would think that anything other than the roman belief system would be seen in history while they had power.

That does NOT prove they were correct.

Imagine if Hitler won ww2. what history would say? Heck look even know. we are seeing the Jewish holocost slowly but sure being erased from history.

does that mean it did not happen?

well using your theory. I guess very soon it will.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Hey we arminians are real Christians too!
It's the Calvinists that get a lot wrong.
this sort of gets to the root of the issue in the church

The catholics vs the arminians vs the calvinists.

A war that has been waging for years.

all of them think they are right and everyone else is wrong.
 
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Taken

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It is ABSOLUTELY a prophecy abpout Baptism as it speraks about receiving a NEW SPIRIT..

Prophecy ABOUT GOD CLEANSING ISRAEL WITH WATER AND ABOUT GOD GIVING HIS HOLY SPIRIT TO ISRAEL.... has nothing to do with a Catholic priest pouring water over the head of an infant OR GOD GIVING that unrepentant, non confessing infant HIS HOLY SPIRIT.

Your unwillingness to admit to this is embedded inyour total hatred for the Church and nothing else.

Your underhandedness and deception is noted.


John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you,
unless one is born of WATER and the SPIRIT, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Acts 2:37-38
Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and to the other apostles, "Brothers, what should we do?" Peter said to them, "
Repent, and be BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT.

Tit. 3:4-8
but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of
his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the HOLY SPIRIT.


It's as plain as the nose on your face - but YOU will continire to reject it because then you would have yto agree with the Church.

Your ignorance, underhandedness and deception is noted.
 

Taken

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You've GOT to be kidding - the NAES???

Sooooo - YOU referredthe God-created rituals of Water Baptism (John 3:5, Matt. 28:19, Acts 2:38, 1 Pet. 2:31) and Anointing of the sick (James 2:14) as "man-made rituals" - which I easily debunked by showing you from Scripture that they were instituted by GOD Himself.

And now - ALL you can say is is that the NAMES of these God-ordained rituals rituals came from men??
Tallk about a pathetic reach . . .

Tell me - WHO named these Protestant doctrines??
Sola Scriptura
Sola Fide
Eternal Security
Limited Atonement

How about the word "Bible" - which is NOT in the Bible?
Your argument is as pathetic as your inability to disprove Water Baptism . . .

Your underhandedness, deception, ignorance and deflection is noted
* Men do not Forgive men of Sin.
.......Men teach men HOW TO receive Gods forgiveness of Sin Against God.
* Men do not save men.
.......Men teach men HOW TO receive Gods salvation.
* The Church is Christ Jesus’ Church.
* The Holy Bible is a compilation of Holy Scriptures of Gods Holy Word, worthily to be Trusted.
* The Supreme Teacher of Gods Holy Word, is Christ Jesus.
......Men who teach according to the Supreme Teacher, is accounted a Worthy Teacher.

Your words, Your deceptions, Your ignorance, Your accusations, Your underhandedness....is Your burden to bear...

* My Forgiveness, Salvation, Quickening, Conversion, Baptism of Gods Holy Spirit, Relationship WITH and IN the Lord God, Membership in Christ Jesus Church, IS ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED AND SECURE;
By, Through, Of Christ Jesus Himself.


* No amount of YOUR ignorance, underhandedness, deception, deflection, accusations, can undo or change the Works of the Lord God IN me!
 

BreadOfLife

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Prophecy ABOUT GOD CLEANSING ISRAEL WITH WATER AND ABOUT GOD GIVING HIS HOLY SPIRIT TO ISRAEL.... has nothing to do with a Catholic priest pouring water over the head of an infant OR GOD GIVING that unrepentant, non confessing infant HIS HOLY SPIRIT.
Your ignorance, underhandedness and deception is noted.
Your ignorance, underhandedness and deception is noted.

Your underhandedness, deception, ignorance and deflection is noted
* Men do not Forgive men of Sin.
.......Men teach men HOW TO receive Gods forgiveness of Sin Against God.
* Men do not save men.
.......Men teach men HOW TO receive Gods salvation.
* The Church is Christ Jesus’ Church.
* The Holy Bible is a compilation of Holy Scriptures of Gods Holy Word, worthily to be Trusted.
* The Supreme Teacher of Gods Holy Word, is Christ Jesus.
......Men who teach according to the Supreme Teacher, is accounted a Worthy Teacher.

Your words, Your deceptions, Your ignorance, Your accusations, Your underhandedness....is Your burden to bear...

* My Forgiveness, Salvation, Quickening, Conversion, Baptism of Gods Holy Spirit, Relationship WITH and IN the Lord God, Membership in Christ Jesus Church, IS ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED AND SECURE;
By, Through, Of Christ Jesus Himself.


* No amount of YOUR ignorance, underhandedness, deception, deflection, accusations, can undo or change the Works of the Lord God IN me!
Sooooo, I take it by your repeated mantra above in RED - that you have ZERO Scriptural evidence to refute the Scriptural evidence I presented, showing that GOD ordained these rituals to convey His grace upon us.

As for men NOT being allowed to forgive sins in the person of Christ – READ YOUR BIBLE . . .

Jesus, to Hid inner circle – the LEADERS of His Church:
John 20:21-23Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent ME, so I send YOU.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.”

WHAT did the Father send the Son to do?
Answer: To bring about the FORGIVENESS of sins.

Paul makes NO small case for this ministry of reconciliation:
2 Cor. 5:18-20:
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”


In 2 Cor. 2:10, he states,
“Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence of Christ

The Greek word used here for “Presence” is Prosopone, which means “Person”.
Paul and the others were forgiving sins in the PERSON of Christ. The Lat–in term for this priestly power is “In Persona Cristi”.

YOUR turn . . .
 
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Illuminator

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The truth is, the roman church did burn all heretical writings, Your own church admits this.
A half truth is still a lie. Heretical writings from the first 3 centuries are available on line.

There were many so called apostles and false teachers already in the church, mentioned in scripture.
They were readily identified as false, that's why it's mentioned in Scripture in the first place.

The fact is, If they were the true church they would teach the truth of the word
Why? Because we reject the man made tradition of "sola scriptura"?

But you do not want to look at the word. all you care about is history.
Because authentic history confirms how the word was practiced out. You are faced with the impossible task of reconstructing church history based on the Bible alone.

The ones in power write history.

so no one in their right mind would think that anything other than the roman belief system would be seen in history while they had power.

That does NOT prove they were correct.

Imagine if Hitler won ww2. what history would say? Heck look even know. we are seeing the Jewish holocost slowly but sure being erased from history.

does that mean it did not happen?

well using your theory. I guess very soon it will.
That's not what I mean by authentic history.
The history of doctrines or dogmas . . . Its object is to show how the mind of the church has gradually apprehended and unfolded the divine truths of revelation, how the teachings of scripture have been formulated and shaped into dogmas, and grown into creeds and confessions of faith, or systems of doctrine stamped with public authority. This growth of the church in the knowledge of the infallible word of God is a constant struggle against error, misblief, and unbelief; and the history of heresies is an essential part of the history of doctrines. Every important dogma now professed by the Christian church is the result of a severe conflict with error.
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2004/02/historical-development-in-understanding.html
 
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Eternally Grateful

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A half truth is still a lie. Heretical writings from the first 3 centuries are available on line.

They were readily identified as false, that's why it's mentioned in Scripture in the first place.

Why? Because we reject the man made tradition of "sola scriptura"?

Because authentic history confirms how the word was practiced out. You are faced with the impossible task of reconstructing church history based on the Bible alone.

That's not what I mean by authentic history.
The history of doctrines or dogmas . . . Its object is to show how the mind of the church has gradually apprehended and unfolded the divine truths of revelation, how the teachings of scripture have been formulated and shaped into dogmas, and grown into creeds and confessions of faith, or systems of doctrine stamped with public authority. This growth of the church in the knowledge of the infallible word of God is a constant struggle against error, misblief, and unbelief; and the history of heresies is an essential part of the history of doctrines. Every important dogma now professed by the Christian church is the result of a severe conflict with error.
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2004/02/historical-development-in-understanding.html
Yep

You make the same mistakes as the jews

You reject scripture alone because with scripture alone your doctrines fail.

When you have to relay on uninspired men, uninspired history. And uninspired teachers. And reject the ONLY inspired or God breathed word of God as soul authority on things of God. You do exactly what they jews did. The truth comes. You reject it because you cant see it. And the truth leaves. Sand your left wanting.
 

Illuminator

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Yep

You make the same mistakes as the jews

You reject scripture alone because with scripture alone your doctrines fail.

When you have to relay on uninspired men, uninspired history. And uninspired teachers. And reject the ONLY inspired or God breathed word of God as soul authority on things of God. You do exactly what they jews did. The truth comes. You reject it because you cant see it. And the truth leaves. Sand your left wanting.
Scripture does not support "scripture alone". There is not one single verse that says the written word alone is the soul authority on things of God. "Scripture alone" is a man made tradition. We accept the material sufficiency of Scripture, but not "Scripture alone". The Trinity can be proven from Scripture, indeed (material sufficiency), but Scripture Alone as a principle was not formally sufficient to prevent the Arian crisis from occurring. In other words, the decisive factor in these controversies was the appeal to apostolic succession and Tradition, which showed that the Church had always been trinitarian. The Arians could not appeal to any such tradition because their christology was a heretical innovation of the 4th century.

The Arians thus appealed to Scripture Alone. And that is the point Catholics make about this. The Arian formal principle was deficient, so that they could appeal to the Bible Alone and come up with Arianism (just like Jehovah's Witnesses do today). If they had held also to an authoritative Sacred Tradition, this could not have happened because the "tradition of Arianism" was non-existent.

Read more: https://www.catholicfidelity.com/apologetics-topics/sola-scriptura/material-vs-formal-sufficiency-of-scripture-by-mark-shea/

see also Twenty One Reasons to Reject Sola Scriptura

You reject scripture alone because with scripture alone your doctrines fail.
If scripture alone were true, their would only be one branch of Protestantism, not thousands. But the topic is not "scripture alone", it's whether or not history can serve as a viable witness to authentic beliefs and practices.
But how to we check to be sure, if we do not have the faith to trust God's Magisterium? Well, the same way that we can know for sure that the Bible we read today is the what was actually written in the First Century -- by comparing what we have today with the written record of history.

In the case of the Bible, we compare what we have today with extant manuscripts from as close to the first century as possible.
In the case of the Oral Tradition, the same is true. We look to extant manuscripts of sermons, essays, Church documents, etc. from the Church Fathers that affirm that what we believe today is the same things that they believed then.
There is NO doctrine of the Catholic Church that cannot be traced to the early Church. Over the centuries our understanding of doctrine has matured from that of the infant Church, but the doctrine remains unchanged. We know this because we can prove it with documentary evidence.
When Protestants posit a theological belief that is contrary to what the Catholics believe, I ask that person to show me where any of the Church Fathers believed has he believes. If the early Christians believed as the Protestants do today there would be some evidence of this -- essays, sermons, writings of some sort. But there are none. The Catholic Church, however, can produce truckloads of extant manuscripts from the First, Second, and Third Centuries that show the foundation for ALL that the Catholic Church believes.
This evidence is overwhelming and sure. There are no other works of antiquity that we are as sure about as we are about the teachings of the Catholic Church.

One of the rules of historical documentary evidence is that a manuscript that was written or copied 50 years after the actual event or after the original autograph is most likely to be more accurate than a copy made 500 years late.
Well the oldest extant manuscript we have of Plato was a copy made 900 years after Plato's death. In actuality we cannot possible know for sure if those writings are actually Plato's.
But with the New Testament writings we have extant copies only a few decades from the original autographs. This is POWERFUL evidence that the Bible we have today is indeed the accurate writings of the Apostles.
In similar manner, we have extant copies of the thinking and teachings of the Church Fathers that we can compare to prove that the Oral Tradition we teach today had its foundations and beginnings in the early Church.
If a person is to believe that the Platonic Dialogues are actually written by Plato, then one should have no problems believing that the Oral Tradition of the Church is intact for the evidence for the Church is nearly absolute, the evidence for Plato is essentially speculative.

Sadly, you have no rules for documentary evidence, just the man made tradition of "sola scriptura" that has failed Protestantism from it's beginning.
 
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Taken

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... I take it ... you have ZERO Scriptural evidence to refute the Scriptural evidence I presented, showing that GOD ordained these rituals to convey His grace upon us.

I already know the difference of Between Jews Under the Law FORGIVING men of Sin Against them,
and
Men NOT Under the Law, being Forgiven by, through, of Christ for SIN Against God,
and Trespasses between men, being Forgiven by men.

Jesus the JEW, teaching JEWS under the Law ——>

, to Hid inner circle – the LEADERS of His Church:
John 20:21-23Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent ME, so I send YOU.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose SINS YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose SINS YOU RETAIN are retained.”


Saul/Paul, the JEW/GENTILE teaching Gentiles NOT under the Law —->

Paul makes NO small case for this ministry of reconciliation:
2 Cor. 5:18-20:
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself
IN CHRIST, not counting their TRESPASSES against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”


In 2 Cor. 2:10, he states,
“Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence of Christ” [/QUOTE]

Yes, A Forgiveness of a man IN Christ toward another man IS Heard by Christ, so also does Christ forgive the forgivers trespasses.


Sin is Against God.
Men do NOT forgive MEN of Sin against God.

You mesh men UNDER the Law, with men NOT under the Law.
 

BreadOfLife

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I already know the difference of Between Jews Under the Law FORGIVING men of Sin Against them,
and
Men NOT Under the Law, being Forgiven by, through, of Christ for SIN Against God,
and Trespasses between men, being Forgiven by men.

Jesus the JEW, teaching JEWS under the Law ——>

Saul/Paul, the JEW/GENTILE teaching Gentiles NOT under the Law —->

Paul makes NO small case for this ministry of reconciliation:
2 Cor. 5:18-20:
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself
IN CHRIST, not counting their TRESPASSES against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”


In 2 Cor. 2:10, he states,
“Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence of Christ

Yes, A Forgiveness of a man IN Christ toward another man IS Heard by Christ, so also does Christ forgive the forgivers trespasses.


Sin is Against God.
Men do NOT forgive MEN of Sin against God.

You mesh men UNDER the Law, with men NOT under the Law.
WOW.
Your arguments - angr and hateful as they are - USUALLY show at least modicum of Scriptural understanding.
This idiotic argument, however, shows absolutelt NONE.

Jesus gave His inner circle - the leaders of His Church - supreme earthly Authority over the Church.
This has been illustrated repeatedly in verses such as Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16L12-15 and John 20:21-23. As I showed you in my last post - He gave them the power to forgive sins or hold them bound (John 20:21-23).

THIS
is the power and Authority that Paul is talking about in 2 Cor. 5:18-20 and Cor. 2:10.
Paul is explaining here that HE forgave those who sinned against his readeers in the PERSON OF CHRIST.

If someone sins against YOU - they have sinned against YOU and God - not me. I don't have the power OR the authority tpo forgive them of EITHER offense. Paul and the others, however were giben that poer by Jesus Himself, who is GOD - and they handed down that Authority to their successors.

They had the God-given Authority to hand it down because Jesus said that WHATEVER they loosed or held boud pon earth - would ALSO be loosed a or held bound in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, John 20:21-23).

ALL Biblical Authority is successive.
It was that way in the OT and is that way in the NT.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Scripture does not support "scripture alone". There is not one single verse that says the written word alone is the soul authority on things of God
2 Tim 3: 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Sorry my friend, You just plain wrong.

Scripture will instruct us in all
Doctrine or spiritual truths

Scripture will reproof or correct a person in spiritual Error

it will correct a person. Give him so excuse for sin

it will instruct in righteousness or lead us how to be righteous people in our daily lives

All these things in order to make a man complete

If the word of God, which is inspired. Can make a man complete in christ. Then everything you said is in error.

while the church may be the body and teacher and everything else the church is still bound by scripture otherwise people can make up any truth they want and no one can refute them

hence as I said. People who reject scripture alone only do it because scripture alone will hurt them not help them