The GENDER Issue again :)

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ScottA

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Flesh is flesh, spirit is spirit. I'm sorry, but none of us will ever be God.
According to Christ we become One--that was His prayer. If it were not so, Jesus would never be God either (for they are One also).

"I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in One, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23
 
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ScottA

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Nope. The letters in the book of the Revelation were written to specific churches, but are relevant to anyone "who has an ear to hear". Good try though.
By the way, if you think that there's order in the church now, just go back to your op and read all the responses.
I said "like", and you say "relevant to anyone"...If "Nope" were correct--it would include you as well. Obviously you simply don't want to agree with me, even when you do. :rolleyes:

I didn't say there was or was not "order in the church now." Are you still thinking so small? That is not the point. I only pointed out that the historic disorder addressed by Paul, and his command, was a foreshadowing regarding a much greater context meant to be heeded by all those in the church who come after--but with the greater understanding given to us by the Holy Spirit's leading us into all truth--that it also included men, for we are all the Bride.
 

1stCenturyLady

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What is funny is that I can't go to any of the men on these forums for what they know about the meaning of God's word, as none of them have wanted to know the truth. Why don't men take more responsibility in learning the truth instead of having itching ears and themselves learning from other men with itching ears ad infinitum.
 

amadeus

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Christians can become sinless (righteous and blameless) by the grace of God. But no person should claim sinless perfection (since that claim itself would be a sin).
It might be sin if it were not God's will for a person to say it of himself. For another person, is it even our call?

God's will for me in my part or for you in your part of the Body of Christ may well be very different from His will for other parts. The foot does not decide what the stomach is able to do or should do. That decision lies with the Head alone.

We all are urged to examine ourselves, which automatically cancels the idea of being sinlessly perfect.
Yet we were told by Jesus to be perfect [or finished or complete] as our Father is perfect [see Matt 5:48]. Another one of those impossible things... for man alone.

Does not God willingly supply that we really need to accomplish what He really desires or requires from us? If we ask of Him, will He refuse our request?

When is the job done? When are we perfect or complete in that respect?

As we are examining ourselves, could the point never come in which instead of finding more flaws or imperfections to be worked on God greets us with words like these?

"His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." Matt 25:23

Not applicable? Not for me to say!

Even Peter -- Christ's chosen apostle to the Jews -- was rebuked when he did something that was not fully in keeping with Gospel truth. And he took the rebuke with good grace.
Even Peter? He was a man as we are men. We know his weakness showed up before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 and we see also him stumble even after that. Did he stop stumbling before his flesh was buried? I do not know, nor do I know the condition of the final walks of many others, including some I have met in the flesh. Is it good to decide without having all of the facts. Is it a good thing about which to speculate?
Getting back to the gender issue -- there is absolutely no ambiguity. Christian men and women have different roles and different responsibilities in the home and in the church. If anyone is contentious about this, they can take it up with God.
I was never in on that subject even though it is in the OP. I won't join it now. Do we have to win a debate to please God?
 
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michaelvpardo

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That's the point. I do teach only what God has made clear to me. How about you?
I'm not a teacher, my calling is to be a prophet to the church, my nation, and by extension to the world. Short of another great awakening and worldwide repentance, the world has very little time left.
The mission of the prophet is correcting those going astray using the word of God. It's like being a doctor, examining the patient, assessing the malady, and applying a cure, but none of these are accomplished without His Spirit. For all intents and purposes, I'm just a messenger boy empowered by the word. A spirit filled pastor does the same thing, addressing hidden sin in the congregation, but it's a bit more complicated with unrepentant and rebellious hearts, people convinced of their own righteousness and justifying their own sin through the misappropriation and misapplication of scripture.
God isn't willingly giving those called by His name over to destruction, but wants to see us turn.
Judgment begins in the house of God and " Now If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

I don't know what DEFCON level our armed forces are at, but during our war games, scenarios like the present situation in Ukraine could escalate to total nuclear war in a number of weeks. I hope that the Lord restores sanity to our world, but the escalating violence in the streets, the rebellion within the church, and a man in power declaring "God's own truth" from the presidential podium one day and uttering curses on another in a show of self righteousness, doesn't bode well for any sort of revival, much less a great awakening.
 

michaelvpardo

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I said "like", and you say "relevant to anyone"...If "Nope" were correct--it would include you as well. Obviously you simply don't want to agree with me, even when you do. :rolleyes:

I didn't say there was or was not "order in the church now." Are you still thinking so small? That is not the point. I only pointed out that the historic disorder addressed by Paul, and his command, was a foreshadowing regarding a much greater context meant to be heeded by all those in the church who come after--but with the greater understanding given to us by the Holy Spirit's leading us into all truth--that it also included men, for we are all the Bride.
I don't couch my words in obtuse language. It may work with unstable women, but doesn't engage the saints.
 

michaelvpardo

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Thank you for your kind words.

You like others use words in posting here as well as in other communication, which sometimes means something different to other people and as a result there is little or no real transfer of information from one person to another.

My old friend @bbyrd009 is one to catch this in people and as a result often in turn cannot be understood either.

For example, in your own post above, you used the word, "perfect", as if everyone knew what you meant and must use the same definition and/or connotation that you do. Have you ever really tried to understand what God meant by it rather than immediately presuming and using the meaning of Webster's dictionary or the man on the street? How does God communicate His meaning to us? If we have already decided what He means, He may not.

I have learned to be watchful about this communication problem and so sometimes I effectively bite my tongue rather than join a lot of conversations occurring right here on this forum.

People don't really want to know most of the time what others really believe. They are mostly more interested in getting their own ideas or beliefs across, perhaps to score some kind of brownie points... They forget that what Solomon wrote about all of us 3,000 years ago still applies. God never changes. Man can change or be changed, but he is quite resistant to it... including yours truly! We need to allow Him to work on us. Closing our minds and hearts to the possibility that "we" are wrong limits God Himself.

So I believe...
Christians frequently stumble over what Jesus taught, because most of what He said was said to unbelieving Jews confident in their relationship to God through the covenant of Abraham. Christians have a new covenant which replaces the old one (of the law) and is very broad in its liberty, but does not negate the truth on display in the old. This causes confusion in our thinking, but we reconcile the word to our understanding through His teaching. Unfortunately, we don't have a great deal of time left to stumble about as children.

I've been preaching Christ's imminent return for a long time relative to our short lives, and I've been preaching judgment and impending destruction (if no great move toward repentance is seen.) While it could be argued that the "four horsemen " have been active for 2000 years, just a look at an unfiltered newspaper or worldwide news media coverage is enough proof that they are all very active now.
Where are Christians with the message of the gospel?

It would seem that we're spending all our time arguing with each other to validate our own belief in the face of imminent destruction or holding our breath for a moment to be wisked away by a hidden second coming.
This disturbs me. Does it bother you at all?

I know that there actually are saints actively trying to make a difference. Superstorms, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, massive forest fires, famines, and plagues tend to motivate at least some of the saints, and still we argue with each other, we tolerate sin in the church, and ignore the signs of the times.

Maybe, I'm just a tired and cranky old man, fed up with the pain of all my maladies, but I can't help but think, given my calling, that I'm feeling a church at odds with itself.
I suppose that the day will reveal it and as the scripture says, all our works shall be tried by fire.

Goodnight and may the Lord teach you good things in your dreams. Amen
 
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michaelvpardo

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According to Christ we become One--that was His prayer. If it were not so, Jesus would never be God either (for they are One also).

"I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in One, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23
None of us will ever be God. When you see the bombs falling, or the tornado bearing down on your home, or the flames surrounding you, just order them to be gone and let me know how that goes.
 

amadeus

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Christians frequently stumble over what Jesus taught, because most of what He said was said to unbelieving Jews confident in their relationship to God through the covenant of Abraham. Christians have a new covenant which replaces the old one (of the law) and is very broad in its liberty, but does not negate the truth on display in the old. This causes confusion in our thinking, but we reconcile the word to our understanding through His teaching. Unfortunately, we don't have a great deal of time left to stumble about as children.
Each of us has whatever time God has given him. How well we handle it is certainly up to us. I believe God holds us responsible for that. He knows what He gave us better than we know it ourselves. This is why He is the only One able to ultimately judge fairly each and every person.
I've been preaching Christ's imminent return for a long time relative to our short lives, and I've been preaching judgment and impending destruction (if no great move toward repentance is seen.) While it could be argued that the "four horsemen " have been active for 2000 years, just a look at an unfiltered newspaper or worldwide news media coverage is enough proof that they are all very active now.
Where are Christians with the message of the gospel?
When we look around us, how much do we see? How much of what we do see even is or has been through blinders of our own making?

I know of many good things that were commonly available to me as a simple quite ignorant young believer have continuously been diminishing. Too many people not doing as much with what they have had as they could. I too have been guilty, especially very early on... but more recently as well although hopefully not so frequently.

I know that I have grown toward God, but I also know that there is more growth available to me even though my remaining time is no longer as great as it was. The night is coming!


It would seem that we're spending all our time arguing with each other to validate our own belief in the face of imminent destruction or holding our breath for a moment to be wisked away by a hidden second coming.
This disturbs me. Does it bother you at all?
The wasting of time by some on this very forum, and others, has been bothering me for a long time. I have spoken of it, but I have also learned that not too many want to hear it. They enjoy the arguing too much apparently to be concerned much about the real goal that God has set before them. I may not know God's purpose for them, but sometimes it is easy to say that it is Not that.

I still participate here some and try to follow the Lord's lead in it. Lots of time, my flesh wants to speak, but the Holy Spirit has a better idea. Lots of times I try to say one thing and the Holy Spirit gives me different words to use.


I know that there actually are saints actively trying to make a difference. Superstorms, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, massive forest fires, famines, and plagues tend to motivate at least some of the saints, and still we argue with each other, we tolerate sin in the church, and ignore the signs of the times.
Perhaps if most of us had been born and now lived in very poor countries without all of material comforts and amenities, we would backslide for sure... or, is it that we were never saved in the first place and confronted with real difficulties, the truth emerges? I do not believe that of myself even though I know I still fall too short of His goals for me too often.

What is seen to be the most important thing of all in the lives of Americans bearing the label of Christ? Is it God? Is it Jesus? Is it love for God and our neighbor?

How high up do they hold America? Not too high I would hope, but are my hopes for naught?

Much is given, much is required, Jesus said... but then let us take a football break, or a coffee break, or some kind of break from... from God? Oh no, did I say that? Help us dear Lord!
Maybe, I'm just a tired and cranky old man, fed up with the pain of all my maladies, but I can't help but think, given my calling, that I'm feeling a church at odds with itself.
I suppose that the day will reveal it and as the scripture says, all our works shall be tried by fire.
You see that, but so many apparently do not see a need for any fire to burn off the dross covering themselves.
Goodnight and may the Lord teach you good things in your dreams. Amen
Good night my friend!
Give God the glory in all of the times, as evil as they may be. Is He not always right here with us?

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones." Prov. 3:5-8
 

1stCenturyLady

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I'm not a teacher, my calling is to be a prophet to the church, my nation, and by extension to the world. Short of another great awakening and worldwide repentance, the world has very little time left.
The mission of the prophet is correcting those going astray using the word of God. It's like being a doctor, examining the patient, assessing the malady, and applying a cure, but none of these are accomplished without His Spirit. For all intents and purposes, I'm just a messenger boy empowered by the word. A spirit filled pastor does the same thing, addressing hidden sin in the congregation, but it's a bit more complicated with unrepentant and rebellious hearts, people convinced of their own righteousness and justifying their own sin through the misappropriation and misapplication of scripture.
God isn't willingly giving those called by His name over to destruction, but wants to see us turn.
Judgment begins in the house of God and " Now If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

I don't know what DEFCON level our armed forces are at, but during our war games, scenarios like the present situation in Ukraine could escalate to total nuclear war in a number of weeks. I hope that the Lord restores sanity to our world, but the escalating violence in the streets, the rebellion within the church, and a man in power declaring "God's own truth" from the presidential podium one day and uttering curses on another in a show of self righteousness, doesn't bode well for any sort of revival, much less a great awakening.

How did you find out you are a prophet? I have the gift of prophecy, but do not hold the office of prophet.
 

DuckieLady

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Actually, God is like me. Because I'm made in his image and likeness.
And being God creates all things both of and from himself, you both sound foolish all the way back to Eden.

Adam's rib was from the dust of the earth God made of and from himself.

It wasn't by a woman that sin entered the world. It was by one man.

Paul praised women apostles in his ministry. Women walked and served with Jesus. Disciple means student. Women and men walked and served with Jesus.

And what is clearly ignored by the two of you? When Paul said we are all one in Christ.
Galatians 3:28

When you don't believe that, you're wrong.
1 Corinthians 11:7-9

"7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man."

Man is the glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.

There is a natural order that God put into place (beginning of 1st Cor 11) and an order is in the church. We are under the headship of the men.

That isn't bad if it is what God designed- was Jesus disappointed that he wasn't the father?
 
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DuckieLady

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There it is!
You're a mocker of scripture and God. A poser, cyber bully, provacature, targeting Christians .

Thank you Father for allowing me to be the lightening rod that drew the child of the fallen light bringer into the open.
A look into their IP may show they're here under a different account as well. One which, if God wills, shall show themselves in a dark reply to this revelation .

Amen and hallelujah. God is good.
This is not good.
 

ScottA

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I don't couch my words in obtuse language. It may work with unstable women, but doesn't engage the saints.
Jesus spoke in parables, because hearing they do not understand. And this sort of thing seems to bother you. Ignore me if you want, but parables spoken plainly are hard sayings regarding the truth. It is time, but you are not willing.
 
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ScottA

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None of us will ever be God. When you see the bombs falling, or the tornado bearing down on your home, or the flames surrounding you, just order them to be gone and let me know how that goes.
Ye of little faith :( ..there is Another in the fire.
 

Pearl

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Don't read too much into that....
Another word for the Holy Spirit is Paraclete which is an athletic term and means somebody who runs along side of you spurring you on and supporting you in your race. And both husband and wife should be this for each other just as the Holy Spirit plays this role in our Christian lives.
 

michaelvpardo

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How did you find out you are a prophet? I have the gift of prophecy, but do not hold the office of prophet.
Shortly after I believed the gospel, I read an article in a magazine, Newsweek I think, about certain elements in the RCC pressuring the pontiff to elevate St.Mary, "the mother of God", to the status of coredemptrix with Jesus Christ. I found this appalling as nothing in scripture elevates a saint to equality with God. That's blasphemous.

I've always written letters to presidents when concerned about the state of the Union, though I couldn't say if any ever made it to their desks, so when I got the unction to write to the pope, I sent a hand written letter to the Vatican warning John Paul not to make any such pronouncement as it would only further divide a fracturing church.

I was raised as a Roman Catholic and abandoned that church early in the great apostasy, but it is the religion of most of my extended family and I've always had a burden upon me for the lost, though never felt any obligation to that institution until after receiving His Spirit many years later (approximately 26 given that I stopped attending "masses" regularly immediately after my "confirmation " and finally believed and received the gospel at the age of 39).

I have no knowledge that John Paul ever saw the letter, but given that I signed it with my given name and that Catholics were looking for "Michael the great prince", and the letter's call to repentance, it's a fair bet that it was discussed.

Within a year, John Paul, who's patron saint was indeed Mary, did actually make a speech confessing the evil deeds of the church (already publicly known historically) and calling upon the church to look at things in new ways.

Not really following things in the RCC very closely, I wasn't aware of his speech for some time, but my early ministry was entirely letter writing, sometimes to radio ministries when I heard offensive error being taught, sometimes to individuals running confidence scams on people with "pay for pray" advertisements or psychic advisors offering life guidance.

Who can say what was read or simply tossed in the trash, but I heard changes in the radio ministries, sometimes angry and self righteous denunciation of attacks on sound principles like new testament "tithing", sometimes thoughtful discussions about potential misunderstandings and misinterpretation that have lead to the acceptance of carnal teaching.

Again, I couldn't say that my letters were even read, but the Holy Spirit was obviously moving powerfully in His body with teaching that I was receiving. However, I didn't see myself as a prophet while under the teaching of pastors that held completely to Reformed doctrines ( the reformation concluded that the gifts ceased with the completion of the Canon of scripture. )

I was "saved" outside of the context of the church in the sense that I received the gospel through the ministry of charismatic evangelical coworkers who patiently answered questions while we worked in our vocation. I received the gospel and submitted to the Lord at the age of 39 years old.. After 3 years of just reading the scriptures repeatedly from Genesis to Revelation, and seeing Christ revealed from the beginning to the end, I came under the conviction that I should be attending a church regularly. Since I'd been ministering to my former wife from scripture (who was also raised as a Roman Catholic but not of a religious bent,) we started visiting church services locally with a number of different denominations. While we encountered some lovely saints, most of the preaching seemed somewhat lifeless.

A small local congregation only a few blocks from our home kept drawing my attention when I drove by. It was an independent Baptist church congregation and upon our first visit, I was impressed with the Spirit at work in the members, the solid exegetical preaching of the pastor, and the powerfully moving worship in song and praise.

We attended that church for a few years, eventually making a public confession and being baptized by this "reformed" pastor who was quite gracious to me though he didn't recognize the charismatic gifts, despite the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in charismatic ways during services.

As we grew in Christ, I was looking for ways to participate in ministry beyond attending men's prayer meetings on Saturday mornings and Wednesday night gatherings for the whole congregation, but I found that ministry leaders jealously guarded their "solo" ministries and refused help.

This was a reflection of the Pastor's tight hands on the reigns of " his church" (though he was submitted to his elders.)

We visited another local assembly, called Grace Tabernacle, Which held to similar doctrine, in a neighboring town. The pastor there was very open to ministry participation and encouraged the congregation to do so. We immediately became "members" and jumped into ministries doing everything from clean up after fellowship to, on my part, preaching messages and teaching the congregation.

I was involved in multiple ministries, trusted by a quick succession of pastors, but noticed a number of issues involving the health of the congregation. I had access to the pastor and mature congregants to discuss them.
Where my counsel was heeded, internal conflicts were avoided, church discipline was activated, and spiritual growth was observed. These were not my works, but God's who gives growth.

Eventually, after having established an outreach ministry to the elderly and building it to a point where I was no longer necessary for its operation, I found myself discontented with some "modernization" to appeal to the growing "youth" membership of the congregation. I felt the call to move on and began moving from one church to another in the area.

At each church I was invited into ministries, usually worship ministries because of my "singing voice", but in each church that I was drawn to, I kept seeing deficiencies in the pastors or leadership that were hindering the spiritual growth of the congregation. When I addressed these issues directly and in the least confrontational way possible (as friendly counsel), those who heeded what I had to say "improved" the health of the congregation, but where I was ignored things didn't go quite so well. One church shrank until it couldn't afford to stay open, closing its doors forever and leaving a pastor looking for another job. In another a pastor was fired for his behavior behind the pulpit (and not by my doing) but the church recovered quickly.

It became increasingly obvious that I was serving the Lord in the capacity of prophet and you are what you do. When I wrote letters under the unction of His Spirit, I brought to bare the word to confront sin, false doctrine, corrupt thinking, and the call to repentance. As far as I could see, I was in line with the preaching of Spirit filled radio ministries, preaching identical messages from completely different Bible passages (things I heard immediately after my letters or postings.)

We discover our spiritual gifts through their manifestation, our calling through the unction of the Holy Spirit.

It's exceedingly sad when saints miss their calling, their opportunities to serve the Lord, because of complacency or the doctrines of controlling men in leadership positions, many of whom were placed through carnal practices though not qualified for their calling or treating ministry as a vocation and meal ticket.
 
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ScottA

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Men and women are meant to complement each other; each has unique skills and talents. They are meant to work together in the service of God - both in the church and in the home. Setting gender against gender is an evil thing to do and prevents both from reaching their potential - again that would be in church and at home. It has been an ongoing argument for generations but these days more men are coming to the conclusion that women who are Spirit filled are to be encouraged to play greater roles and even to actually support them.
I guess I need to point out again that this is not the point of this thread, nor of the scriptures.

The point is that the issue that Paul had with women in the church during his time, is not the reason God saw fit to include it in His eternal Word. In which case and context, the issue is not between men and women at all--but between the Bride (women and men alike) and the Bridegroom: The eternal command is for the Bride to be silent in the church, so that he Holy Spirit, the Helper, can speak and be heard, rather than the teachings of men.
 
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ScottA

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Shortly after I believed the gospel, I read an article in a magazine, Newsweek I think, about certain elements in the RCC pressuring the pontiff to elevate St.Mary, "the mother of God", to the status of coredemptrix with Jesus Christ. I found this appalling as nothing in scripture elevates a saint to equality with God. That's blasphemous.
That is what the Priests and Pharisees said of Jesus.

They were wrong, and so are you.​

The apostle Paul (a saint), however, said, "for me to live is Christ."
 

michaelvpardo

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That is what the Priests and Pharisees said of Jesus.

They were wrong, and so are you.​

The apostle Paul (a saint), however, said, "for me to live is Christ."
OK satan, we'll see soon enough. No saint will ever take you seriously here and if you said such things in the midst of one of our congregations, you'd be politely ushered out the door and politely instructed to never return.
 

ScottA

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OK satan, we'll see soon enough. No saint will ever take you seriously here and if you said such things in the midst of one of our congregations, you'd be politely ushered out the door and politely instructed to never return.
And with that, you are not only against the scriptures, but against Paul, and against Peter who confirmed him, and against Christ who chose and sent them. There are names given for that, but I invoke none. You have spoken for yourself.
 
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