Jesus is Michael

ReChoired said:

Daniel is speaking to Gabriel, not Michael, in Daniel 10.

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I don't believe so.

1. The "angel" is glorified. No other angels appearance is glorified. Only Jesus!
2. There are many angels and nowhere here does it say it is Gabriel.
3. It says man, not angel.
4. The description matches Jesus in Revelation.


Daniel 10:5-6

I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. 6 His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.

Revelation 1:11-16

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

You can even see the significant similarity based on his voice with the "rushing waters" bit.

Keiw said:

They didnt see the actual being. Moses saw a burning bush. Since the OT is clear--no man has ever seen God. You are in error.

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Where in the OT (Gen. to Mal.), does any text say that "no man has ever seen God"? I request the specific OT text please (Isaiah 8:20).

FluffyYellowDuck said:

I don't believe so.

1. The "angel" is glorified. No other angels appearance is glorified. Only Jesus!
2. There are many angels and nowhere here does it say it is Gabriel.
3. It says man, not angel.
4. The description matches Jesus in Revelation.


Daniel 10:5-6

I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. 6 His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.

Revelation 1:11-16

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

You can even see the significant similarity based on his voice with the "rushing waters" bit.

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You are in error in three ways:

1. I said that Daniel was speaking to Gabriel. I never said that Daniel didn't see Jesus in vision. The vision of Jesus (Daniel 10:5-9, just like Revelation 1 with John), and the angel Gabriel speaking (Daniel 10:10-21, 11:1 onward) to Daniel are two differing things, for similar see Daniel 9:21.

2. Gabriel required help from Michael (Jesus), Daniel 10:13.

3. Gabriel looks like a "man" (Daniel 9:21), and "the similitude of the sons of men" (Daniel 10:16), and "one like the appearance of a man" (Daniel 10:18).

Jesus is seen at the beginning and ending (Daniel 12:1,6-7), but Gabriel is the one speaking to Daniel having bent "sent" (Daniel 10:11) by Jesus (Michael) to Daniel. Gabriel had been battling Satan, but Jesus (Michael) needed to intervene to make sure the prophecy went forward, and so Michael (Jesus) stays to battle the devil, and send Gabriel to Daniel, until such time that Gabriel accomplishes that, and returns to battle the devil (Daniel 10:20), and frees up Jesus (Michael) to do other things.

See and compare Zechariah 3 to Daniel 10 to Jude 1:9 to Revelation 12.

ReChoired said:

You are in error in three ways:

1. I said that Daniel was speaking to Gabriel. I never said that Daniel didn't see Jesus in vision. The vision of Jesus (Daniel 10:5-9), and the angel Gabriel speaking (Daniel 10:10-21, 11:1 onward) to Daniel are two differing things, for similar see Daniel 9:21.

2. Gabriel required help from Michael (Jesus), Daniel 10:13.

3. Gabriel looks like a "man" (Daniel 9:21), and "the similitude of the sons of men" (Daniel 10:16).

Jesus is seen at the beginning and ending (Daniel 12:1,6-7), but Gabriel is the one speak having bent "sent" (Daniel 10:11) by Jesus (Michael) to Daniel. Gabriel had been battling Satan, but Jesus (Michael) needed to intervene to make sure the prophecy went forward, and so Michael (Jesus) stays to battle the devil, and send Gabriel to Daniel, until such time that Gabriel accomplishes that, and returns to battle the devil (Daniel 10:20), and frees up Jesus (Michael) to do other things.

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OK, it seems we were both speaking about two separate pieces and I also didn't realize you were of the understanding of Jesus being Michael also.


I think that @Ronald David Bruno already provided a good explanation. I don't see any reason to add to it.

Ronald David Bruno said:

...

144k are all Jews from the 12 tribes as it specifically states.

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You are in error.

The 144k are all Christians, for Jesus is the True Israel, the Israel of God, the True overcomer and prince with God His Father, and His disciples his children. Even the very order of the names given in Revelation when compared to their names in the OT at birth, spell out the Everlasting Gospel.

Let me know if you need the details.

ReChoired said:

You are in error.

The 144k are all Christians, for Jesus is the True Israel, the Israel of God, the True overcomer and prince with God His Father, and His disciples his children. Even the very order of the names given in Revelation when compared to their names in the OT at birth, spell out the Everlasting Gospel.

Let me know if you need the details.

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Okay your beliefs are specific - are you JW?

FluffyYellowDuck said:

... I also didn't realize you were of the understanding of Jesus being Michael also.
...

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Why do you not understand Michael to be another designation for Jesus (uncreated and eternal Son of the Father)?

What are your top 5 reasons, and will you look at them with me in the light of scripture?

ReChoired said:

You are in error.

The 144k are all Christians, for Jesus is the True Israel, the Israel of God, the True overcomer and prince with God His Father, and His disciples his children. Even the very order of the names given in Revelation when compared to their names in the OT at birth, spell out the Everlasting Gospel.

Let me know if you need the details.

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He's referring to this

Rev 7:4-8
Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

And these are Jewish male virgins who can only sing a very specific song, likely A specific language.

Rev 14

Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

FluffyYellowDuck said:

Okay your beliefs are specific - are you JW?

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No. I am Seventh-day Adventist. Fa'afetai lava.

FluffyYellowDuck said:

He's referring to this

Rev 7:4-8 ...

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Yes I know. Please reread what I stated, and if you want the scripture evidence, ask me for it.

ReChoired said:

Why do you not understand Michael to be another designation for Jesus (uncreated and eternal Son of the Father)?

What are your top 5 reasons, and will you look at them with me in the light of scripture?

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There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that says so, the understanding doesn't apply to anything. If there was something to that then that would be clear.

ReChoired said:

Yes I know. Please reread what I stated, and if you want the scripture evidence, ask me for it.

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You'll need to read the first part of Rev 14 below that- they are specifically described.

ReChoired said:

No. I am Seventh-day Adventist. Fa'afetai lava.

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Interesting, thanks, went to seventh day school as a kid. Don't remember them having these beliefs.

Michael is an angel. In hebrews 1 it states that God made Christ human and exalted Him above all creation.

Jesus is not Michael. Just read Hebrews 1.

FluffyYellowDuck said:

You'll need to read the first part of Rev 14 below that- they are specifically described.

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Are you saying you don't want to see my evidence from scripture (Proverbs 18:13,17 KJB)? I have quite a bit.

friend of said:

Michael is an angel. In hebrews 1 it states that God made Christ human and exalted Him above all creation.

Jesus is not Michael. Just read Hebrews 1.

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I have read Hebrews 1, prayerfully, and in thorough detail. Care to discuss what you think might be an issue in Hebrews 1, whereas you think that Jesus cannot be Michael because of it?

FluffyYellowDuck said:

Interesting, thanks, went to seventh day school as a kid. Don't remember them having these beliefs.

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Most of those 'schools' are not according to the pattern that was established at the beginning. Those 'schools' are not after God's order, which is why you did not hear the present truth from them.

ReChoired said:

Are you saying you don't want to see my evidence from scripture (Proverbs 18:13,17 KJB)? I have quite a bit.

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Not necessarily, TBH, because Rev 12-14 is very direct and specific on it's own.

If it isn't directly stated, then it is theory, and I can't set my faith on theory, I set my faith on what is plainly stated.

FluffyYellowDuck said:

Not necessarily, TBH, because Rev 12-14 is very direct and specific on it's own.

If it isn't directly stated, then it is theory, and I can't set my faith on theory, I set my faith on what is plainly stated.

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I will post it for others then:

144,000, made up of 12 Tribes of Israel (Jesus, Israel of God) - Juda, Reuben, Gad, Aser, Nepthalim, Manasses, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zabulon, Joseph, Benjamin (Names, Character), both Dan (“Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.” – Genesis 49:17 KJB) and Ephraim (“Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.” – Hosea 4:17 KJB) are not mentioned in this Revelation passage. See also Genesis 35:22-26; Numbers 1:5-16,20-46, 7:12-89, 10:11-28, 13:3-16, 26:2-51, 34:16-29; Deuteronomy 27:12-14, 33:6-29; Joshua 14:1-19:51, 21:1-45; 1 Chronicles 2:1-2, 4:1-7:40, 12:24-36, 27:16-22; Ezekiel 48:1-35 KJB.

12 – Service, Victory over self (Israel; OT – 12 patriarchs & NT – 12 disciples/apostles; prince or overcomer with God) and always being about the Father’s business, rulership (Esther 9:1; as the 12 hours in the day/night; John 11:9), purification (Esther 2:12), and 6 + 6 were the two stacks of the shewbread, a place for the Father and Son (Leviticus 24:5-6); see: Genesis 14:4, 42:13; 1 Kings 4:7, 18:31; 1 Chronicles 25:6,9-31; 2 Chronicles 34:3; Nehemiah 5:14; Ezekiel 47:12; Matthew 10:5-10; Mark 3:14-15, 9:35; Luke 2:42,49, 9:1-2; John 18:36; Acts 26:7; James 1:1; Revelation 7:3,4-8, 22:2. KJB

1,000 – The whole of Multitudes (Judges 9:49, 15:15-16; Job 9:3, 33:23; Psalms 50:10; Ecclesiastes 7:28; Mathew 18:24) or full measurement of something (Deuteronomy 7:9; Joshua 23:10; Ezekiel 47:3-5 KJB), whole unit (1 Samuel 18:13); or mighty Nation of People – Numbers 31:4-6 Deuteronomy 1:11; Song of Solomon 4:4; Isaiah 60:22; Daniel 5:1 KJB.

Yet, according to the Scripture (KJB), who is the real and true Israel, and who are His children that ought keep the Sabbath of the LORD?

Jesus and His Disciples:

Jesus is the Real and True “Israel” (Romans 9:6-8), the “Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16), for we read (KJB) in Matthew 2:13-15,19-21; Hosea 11:1 that Jesus is identified by the Father, through the Holy Spirit who inspired Matthew to cite Hosea 11:1 as being truly fulfilled by Jesus, who is named “Israel” (and no marvel for Jesus is also named, “Adam” (1 Corinthians 15:45-47), “David” (Jeremiah 30:9; Ezekiel 34:23-24, 37:24-25; Hosea 3:5), ‘Solomon’ (“Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6), “son of David” (Matthew 1:1; Luke 3:31, &c.)) , “Levi” (Malachi 2:4-7), and many others, for all the scriptures testify of Jesus (John 5:39; Luke 24:27; Psalms 40:7; Hebrews 10:7; Acts 3:18)). Jesus is the Real and True “overcomer” (John 16:33; Revelation 3:21) and “Prince” (Isaiah 9:6; Daniel 8:11,25, 9:25, 10:13,21, 11:22, 12:1; Acts 3:15, 5:31; Revelation 1:5) with God His Father, which is what the name “Israel” means (Genesis 32:28, 35:10). Jesus is the very “elect” (Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18; 1 Peter 2:6) of the Father, in whom all the promises of God the Father find their realization and true fulfillment (2 Corinthians 1:20; Psalms 2:8, 116:14,18). Jesus is the “Lord” over His own house, whose house are Christians/Disciples (Psalms 98:3; Hebrews 3:6; Jeremiah 31:33).

Since Jesus is the Real and True Israel, who then are His children?

The disciples of Jesus are His Real and True children, given Him by the Father (John 13:33; Hebrews 2:13, citing Isaiah 8:16,18 in context of Isaiah 8:8-20, “Immanuel”, “God with us”, “sanctuary”, “stone”, “rock”, “LORD of Hosts”). Just as the Jacob/Israel after the flesh had the 12 patriarchs (Genesis 35:22), so too Jesus has the 12 Apostles (Matthew 10:2; Luke 6:13, 22:14; Revelation 21:14), and all whom they taught, the number of whom is as the “sand of the sea” (Isaiah 10:22). Though there was a “natural” “Israel”, “after the flesh”, Jesus is the Real and True “spiritual” (1 Corinthians 15:45-47) “Israel”, “of God”, “after the Spirit” (Romans 8:4). For the Law of God (Ten Commandments, including the Sabbath of the LORD, Exodus 20:1-17) is “spiritual” (Romans 7:14), and can only be kept by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:8-13, 10:16; Ezekiel 11:19-20, 36:22-38, 37:26-28; 2 Corinthians 3:3,6). There, “remaineth therefore a rest (sabbatismos, Sabbath keeping in spirit and in truth; John 4:23-24; Isaiah 66:22-23; Revelation 14:6-12) to the people of God” (Hebrews 4:9; Hebrews 4:1-12; Matthew 11:28; Exodus 33:14), and because they love Him who first loved them, they keep His commandments (John 14:15; Exodus 20:6; Revelation 12:17, 14:7,12; Exodus 20:11), which are not grievous (1 John 5:3), especially the Sabbath which was “made for” (Mark 2:27) Him/them (Colossians 1:16; 1 Timothy 2:5; 1 Corinthians 15:45-47), never being ‘against’ Him/them; being “light” (Proverbs 6:23; Isaiah 8:20, 51:4), never a shadow; fulfilled in grace/mercy (Exodus20:2,6), thus to be kept holy by all in Christ Jesus in the everlasting covenant (Isaiah 56:1,8; John 10:16; Isaiah 56:2-7).

“Israel”, “after the flesh” (1 Corinthians 10:18), as a ‘nation’ (individuals can still be saved if they call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ), is left “desolate” (Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35), failed to keep the sabbath of the LORD (Exodus 16:28, 20:12-13, 20-24; Numbers 15:32-41; Psalms 95:11; Hebrews 3:11, 4:3,5), being not mixed with faith (Hebrews 4:2; Romans 14:23), and are to bear no more “fruit” ever again (Matthew 21:19), being cursed, and withered away (Mark 11:21), dried up from the root (Mark 11:20), being “twice dead” (Jude 1:12), for the axe was already laid at their root (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), and so was cut down, and thrown into the fire (Isaiah 9:14; John 15:6; Matthew 22:7; Luke 21:20), and will be so again in the lake of fire to come (Revelation 20:15, 21:8; 1 John 2:4).

FluffyYellowDuck said:

Not necessarily, TBH, because Rev 12-14 is very direct and specific on it's own.

If it isn't directly stated, then it is theory, and I can't set my faith on theory, I set my faith on what is plainly stated.

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I will post it for others then:

“Of the tribe of Juda (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad (were) sealed twelve thousand.” – Revelation 7:5 KJB

“Of the tribe of Aser (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses (were) sealed twelve thousand.” – Revelation 7:6 KJB

“Of the tribe of Simeon (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar (were) sealed twelve thousand.” – Revelation 7:7 KJB

“Of the tribe of Zabulon (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin (were) sealed twelve thousand.” – Revelation 7:8 KJB

Judah = “Jew” = “I Will Praise The Lord” (Genesis 29:35)

“And she conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, Now will I praise the LORD: therefore she called his name Judah; and left bearing.” - Genesis 29:35 KJB

Reuben = “Behold A Son” = “He Has Looked On Me” (Genesis 29:32)

“And Leah conceived, and bare a son, and she called his name Reuben: for she said, Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction; now therefore my husband will love me.” - Genesis 29:32 KJB

Gad = “Troop” = “Given Good Fortune” (Genesis 30:11, 49:19) (a troop is a band of persons who brings (back) wealth/fortune through conquering others, or those who overcame others victoriously bringing back spoils/fortune/wealth, etc)

“And Leah said, A troop cometh: and she called his name Gad.” - Genesis 30:11 KJB
“Gad, a troop shall overcome him: but he shall overcome at the last.” - Genesis 49:19 KJB

Asher = “Happy” = “Happy Am I” (Genesis 30:13)

“And Leah said, Happy am I, for the daughters will call me blessed: and she called his name Asher.” - Genesis 30:13 KJB

Naphtali = “Wrestling” = “My Wrestling” (Genesis 30:8)

“And Rachel said, With great wrestlings have I wrestled with my sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his name Naphtali.” - Genesis 30:8 KJB

Manasseh = “Causing To Forget” = “Is Making Me To Forget” (Genesis 41:51)

“And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh: For God, (said he), hath made me forget all my toil, and all my father's house.” - Genesis 41:51 KJB

Simeon = “Heard” = “God Hears Me” (Genesis 29:33)

“And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Because the LORD hath heard that I (was) hated, he hath therefore given me this (son) also: and she called his name Simeon.” - Genesis 29:33 KJB

Levi ** = “Joined To” = “Is Attached To Me” (Genesis 29:34)

“And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Now this time will my husband be joined unto me, because I have born him three sons: therefore was his name called Levi.” - Genesis 29:34 KJB

Issachar = “There Is Recompense” = “He Has Purchased Me” (Genesis 30:18)

“And Leah said, God hath given me my hire, because I have given my maiden to my husband: and she called his name Issachar.” - Genesis 30:18 KJB

Zebulun = “Exalted” = “A Dwelling” (Genesis 30:20)

“And Leah said, God hath endued me (with) a good dowry; now will my husband dwell with me, because I have born him six sons: and she called his name Zebulun.” - Genesis 30:20 KJB

Ephraim * = “Double Ash Heap” = “I Shall Be Doubly Fruitful” (Genesis 41:52)

“And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction.” - Genesis 41:52 KJB

Joseph = “Jehovah Was Added” = “God Will Add To Me” (Genesis 30:24)

“And she called his name Joseph; and said, The LORD shall add to me another son.” - Genesis 30:24 KJB

Benjamin = “Son Of The Right Hand” = “Son Of His Right Hand” (Genesis 35:17-18)

“And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also.” - Genesis 35:17 KJB

“And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.” - Genesis 35:18 KJB

Dan * = “A Judge” (Genesis 30:6)

“And Rachel said, God hath judged me, and hath also heard my voice, and hath given me a son: therefore called she his name Dan.” - Genesis 30:6 KJB

And therefore, by the special list given in Revelation (Juda, Reuben, Gad, Aser, Nepthalim, Manasses, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zabulon, Joseph, Benjamin) it is seen that the meaning is:

Now I Will Praise The LORD {JEHOVAH} (Judah) (for) Surely The LORD Hath Looked Upon My Affliction (Reuben) (and) Granted Good Fortune (Gad) (therefore) Happy Am I (Asher) (even though) With Great Wrestlings Have I Wrestled (Naphtali) (but) God Is Making Me To Forget All My Toil (Manasseh) (for) the LORD Hath Heard Me (Simeon) (being) Joined Unto Me (Levi) (and) He Has Purchased Me (Issachar) (wanting) To Dwell With Me (Zebulun) (and) The LORD Shall Add To Me (Joseph) (also) The Son Of His Right Hand (Benjamin).

A specific example of this may be seen from the Beginning (Adam, see 1 Corinthians 15:45-47 KJB) :Adam – Genesis 2:7; Eve – Genesis 3:20; Abel – Genesis 4:2; Cain – Genesis 4:1; Seth – Genesis 4:25; Enos – Genesis 4:26; Cainan – Genesis 5:9; Mahalaleel – Genesis 5:12; Jared – Genesis 5:15; Enoch – Genesis 5:18; Methuselah – Genesis 5:21; Lamech – Genesis 5:25; Noah – Genesis 5:29; Shem – Genesis 5:32 KJB

(JEHOVAH) God, through His Unique Son, who died (Adam, Red/blood), Gives Life (Eve), being pierced (Cain), and in the place of (Seth) mourning/sorrow (Abel), for Mortal Man (Enos), Obtained (Cainan), the Praise of God (Mahalaleel), for He Descended/Came Down (Jared), Dedicated/Walked With God and was not found, for God took Him (Enoch), and Whose Death Would Bring (Methuselah), Strength/Vital Force (Lamech), and Rest/Comfort (Noah), so declaring His Good Name (Shem).