Scriptural proof that Jesus was NOT "fully God"

John Zain said:

God had to produce a sinless human to be our Savior-Redeemer-Substitute.
Do you understand all that went into this?
Voila, the man called "Jesus" was produced.
If God wanted to produce 5 more such miracles, then we'd have 6 sinless men.

Yes, no natural human being can be sinless, ergo Jesus must have been God.
But, we have been discussing whether He was "fully God".
Did you read my previous posts #40 and #56?

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I'm not going to get into a debate on the "producing" of Jesus.

This post of yours is starting to seem like you're understanding the fact of Jesus being God.

Just as God said, "Come now! Let us reason TOGETHER!"

This is just an analogy, but have you ever thought of God the Father as mind; Jesus as heart; and Holy Spirit as will? Jesus was God's heart broken for us on the Cross because of our sins against Him? We are taught by the Holy Spirit how to love and a new lesson we would never learn without the Fall; forgiveness?

veteran said:

You simply don't understand what you say.

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Actually I understand exactly what I say it is you that cannot comprehend it because you are blinded from the truth. Tedious much.

veteran said:

John 10:17-18
17 Therefore doth My Father love Me, because I lay down My life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of My Father.
(KJV)

Who else born in the flesh has that Power to lay down their life, and then take it up again? None but God only. Even if you want to try and separate The Father from that you can't, because who else has The Father given that commandment to? None but Christ Jesus only. It's why Christ Jesus is God come in the flesh.

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Its rather hilarious & convenient of you to neglect transparent scriptures that God the Father resurrected Jesus from the dead. God the Father's power raised Jesus from the dead...
Acts 13:30-34 "But God raised Him from the dead".....vs33 "God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.' "And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption.."
Rom 10:9 " that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead you will be saved"
The above scriptures confirm Jesus did not raise himself from the dead but God the Father did.

veteran said:

Here's a Scripture which probably caused the unbelieving Jews mental hardship, because they couldn't understand how Christ could be born in the flesh and still fully be God...

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I believe Jesus is God, they didn't period. Quite frankly I'm sick of explaining it to you.

veteran said:

Isa 45:21-23
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside Me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside Me.
22 Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
(KJV)

That last Isaiah 45:23 verse is about Christ Jesus, for He has been given that future judgment of all men. Did God say there every knee shall bow through His Son there? No. He said "unto Me", which means what? That is The Father equating Christ to Himself as God The Saviour.

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And when did Christ qualify as our Saviour? When he paid the death penalty for humanity's sins, after he died on the cross this is referring to after his resurrection when he was restored to his full divine Godly form in power, infinity & authority.

veteran said:

Phil 2:10-11
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(KJV)

Obviously, unbelieving Jews today still struggle with Scripture like that, just as they do with Christ's Name Immanuel per Isaiah 7, and with Jesus declaring He is The "I AM" to them per John 8.

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I do not disagree with the above scriptures I know already Jesus is the 'I AM' the God of the OT the Creator at the beginning prior to His human birth, and that He is 'Immanuel' God with us. Also He is Melchizedek our High Priest in the OT, and 'Rock' that followed them. He was still God as the human prior to his resurrection (not fully God in divinity) and He is fully God now. Phil 2:10-11 is referring to the risen Christ after His resurrection, read vs 8-9 first than 10-11 than maybe you'll click.

veteran said:

John 2:19
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
(KJV)

Why would Jesus say He would raise it up and not point to The Father also in that? It's because Jesus Christ is The everlasting Father, The Mighty God, per Isaiah 9:6, God born in the flesh as The Saviour.

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After 3 Days His temple was raised by whom?? God the Father (already provided scriptures)
Isaiah 9:6 Yes it is a prophecy of the Messiah who was born to be King and its referring to his Future coming government & kingdom which he will establish when He returns see Daniel 2:44, & the subsequent vs 7states "Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end." His government & kingdom is not here yet is it? Is there peace in this world? Absolutely not. The everlasting Father The Mighty God is referring to after his resurrection not while he was Jesus in full human flesh & blood form.

veteran said:

Phil 2:5-8
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
(KJV)

Christ Jesus being "in fashion as a man" was about His flesh attributes, not attributes of His Spirit That was "in the form of God" and "equal with God".

God The Son humbled Himself by being born in the form of flesh like us, and allowed His FLESH to be subject to death, experiencing death like us. But something special happened with death of His flesh body; He defeated death upon the cross for us by it (Heb.2:14). Can any other do that? No. Even His flesh was raised from the dead to retain the marks of His crucifixion to show this.

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Endeavour to keep an open mind

Vs six: “ being in the form of God, ……..equal with God” is referring to Jesus prior to his human birth - in fully God form.
What happened next?…Try to think. Did it state that he was to remain fully God when he became flesh?? NO

Notice the rest of the verses that follow in the correct translation the ASV Bible has a correct rendering of the Greek term Kenosis..
“…in Christ Jesus: who, existing in the form of God, counted notthe being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form ofa servant, being made in the likeness of men” (Phil 2:5-7).

“Kenosis: Literally means to empty”
Whatdid Jesus in the flesh empty? "being made in the likeness of men" is a conspicuous clue..
His divinity - direct powers, immortality. He had physical limitations just like us humans i.e. He died (God cannot), he was tempted (Matt 4:1; Heb 4:15) God cannot be tempted (Js 1:13), He did not resurrect himself God did (Acts 13:30-34; Eph 1:20 etc). He had limited power & authority on his own (John 14:10; John 5:27-30).

Also the NT in Modern English Bible “He, who had always been God by nature, did not cling to his privileges as God’s equal, but stripped himself of every advantage by consenting to be a slave by nature and being born a man.”

That is exactly the crux of the matter he died in the flesh as a human, if he was fully God in divinity - immortality/infinity & power, invincibility, he could not die in the flesh if you this you contradict the bible. If you are fully God divine - finity you cannot die! I repeat you cannot be both infinite & finite simultaneously. Yes he was the only one who qualified & conquered eternal death I know that nobody else has, and through his resurrection to eternal life he made that available for baptised converted genuine Christians. He paid the death penalty as a full flesh & blood human (God in identity & nature not in divinity). Since you support he was fully God as a full human Jesus, you undermine the enormous magnitude of His sacrifice. He suffered an excruciating death to pay our debt for the remission of our sins & to reconcile us to God and he could only genuinely do that as a full flesh & blood human without his full God divine attributes as explained above Heb 2:10,14,9. You also miss a crucial point that Jesus being fully human (& not simultaneously fully God) completed trusted & relied on God the Father, we are told to imitate Christ & that is one of his examples we should follow. I will not expound on this anymore.

That is exactly the crux of the matter he died in the flesh as a human, if he was fully God in divinity - immortality/infinity & power, invincibility, he could not die in the flesh if you believe this you contradict the bible. If you are fully God divine - infinity you cannot die! I repeat you cannot be both infinite & finite simultaneously. Yes he was the only one who qualified & conquered eternal death I know that nobody else has, and through his resurrection to eternal life he made that available for baptised converted genuine Christians. He paid the death penalty as a full flesh & blood human (God in identity & nature not in divinity). Since you support he was fully God as a full human Jesus, you undermine the enormous magnitude of His sacrifice. He suffered an excruciating death to pay our debt for the remission of our sins & to reconcile us to God and he could only genuinely do that as a full flesh & blood human without his full God divine attributes as explained above Heb 2:10,14,9. You also miss a crucial point that Jesus being fully human (& not simultaneously fully God) completed trusted & relied on God the Father, we are told to imitate Christ & that is one of his examples we should follow. I will not expound on this anymore.
[/quote]

veteran said:

Titus 2:13-14
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
(KJV)

I don't know if you realize it or not, but Mysticism (like what the 2nd century Gnostics held), believed that Jesus was only a highly spiritually developed human which The Christ Spirit worked through. They believed that anyone should be able to do what Jesus did simply by The Christ Spirit working through them too. That's the false idea that we 'each' can become our own Saviour, our own god. Jewish mysticism has that doctrine too, originating from the corruption of scribes and priests that crept in from the nations of Canaan. That's why the scribes and Pharisees refused to accept Jesus of Nazareth as God The Saviour, The Christ, Immanuel ("God with us"), The everlasting Father.

They are still under that old serpent's temptation that you can be your own god. That's why they must refuse Jesus of Nazareth as being God come in the flesh, and also the various OT Scriptures that testified about Christ being born in the flesh of woman.

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Ludicrous much. I do not adhere to this fallacious view of Mysticism or Gnosticism, this does not apply to what I believe in. No I do not believe "Jesus was only a highly spiritually developed human and know that we each can become our own Saviour our own God - I never implied that. The more you comment the more it substantiates your lack of comprehension skills, quit making erroneous speculations pertaining to the origins of my beliefs. I only believe what the Bible authenticates.

You have patently conveyed that it is difficult for your archaic brainwashed psyche to discern what the bible reveals in this subject. No matter what I e-say to you, you will not understand until the Eternal God reveals it to you. Therefore this is the final time I e-speak to you regarding this subject. You can by all means continue to on with your pedantic ramblings twisting & distorting scripture hoping that it would validate your deceived perception, but it will not reconcile anything owing to the fact it is explicitly unbiblical, enough said.

Duckybill said:

You mean He wasn't God and then He was God?




Exactly!

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Yes I know you made it abundantly obvious you don't get it. Now why would I expect you to understand if you practice lawlessness? You can't even get the fundamentals correct. I have explained this many times already, I will not reiterate again, if you cannot understand & clearly you do not than that is your predicament. Do not bother replying to this post because I will not respond when I have clarified repeatedly & you have zilch substance & lack discernment.

John Zain said:

logabe,

Case closed? ... No, the Judge has not slammed down the gavel quite yet.
Haven't studied the Greek, but your Romans 5:12 is interesting.

Care to comment on this?

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David explains why all humans are sinners … their inherited sin nature
“Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.” (Psalm 51:5)
“The wicked (sons of men, verse 1) are estranged from the womb;
they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.” (Psalm 58:3)

David tells of the disasterous consequences
“The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men … They have all turned aside,
they have all become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one.” (Psalm 14:2-3)
“God looks down from heaven upon the children of men … Every one of them has turned aside;
they have all become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one.” (Psalm 53:2-3)
“… for in Your sight no one living is righteous.” (Psalm 143:2)

David was a man after God’s own heart
“The LORD has sought for Himself a man after His own heart, and the LORD
has commanded him (David) to be commander over His people …” (1 Samuel 13:14)
Paul paraphrases Samuel: “I (God) have found David, the son of Jesse,
a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.” (Acts 13:22)
But, David proved to be a sinner like everyone else, being an adulterer and a murderer.

Solomon was the wisest and most influential king in Israel’s history
“When they sin against You (for there is no one who does not sin) …” (1 Kings 8:46)
“When they sin against You (for there is no one who does not sin) …” (2 Chronicles 6:36)
“Who can say, ‘I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin’?” (Proverbs 20:9)
“For there is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin.” (Ecclesiastes 7:20)

Job was blameless and upright
This means he shunned evil and sin, but when he did slip, he immediately
and sincerely repented … which is the absolute best any human can do.
“Man who is born of woman is of few days and full of trouble. …
Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? No one!” (Job 14:1-4)
All humans have the sin nature, so how could any offspring not have the sin nature?
This “man who is born of woman” theme is repeated in Job 15:14-16 and Job 25:4.

Isaiah addresses Israel
“For I knew that you (Israel) … were called a transgressor from the womb.” (Isaiah 48:8)
“For we are all like an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses
are like filthy rags (women’s menstral cloths)” (Isaiah 64:6)
All of the Israelites were born sinners … and everyone else is also.

Why didn’t Moses seem to have this revelation?
God gave Moses the all-important Ten Commandments at a critical time.
It was very understandable and necessary that Moses was not told about man’s hopeless
sin nature, and that it was totally impossible for the Israelites to follow God’s Law.
Moses had to be in the most positive, encouraging, and demanding mode possible
to give the Israelites the maximum chance to succeed at following God’s Law.
Yes, God gave them every opportunity to succeed, but they failed miserably.

The main reason for God giving the Law
God gave the Law to prove that it is totally impossible for man to please Him.
So, everyone is a sinner, and no one is acceptable to be with God for all of eternity.
Man needed God to intervene somehow, if anyone was to have any chance of Heaven.

Jews, Christians, Muslims … How can you not believe in original sin?
Muslims … how can you believe God's prophets were sinless?

Jesus said His 12 disciples were evil
“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children …” (Luke 11:13)
Do you think Jesus purposely chose evil men to be His disciples?
No, of course not … He is simply saying that all men are evil.

Jesus understood man’s disasterous spiritual condition
“Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His
name when they saw the signs which He did. But Jesus did not commit Himself to them,
because He knew all men, and had no need that anyone should tell Him about man,
for He knew what was in man.” (John 2:23-25)
Jesus explains: “I am He who searches the minds and hearts.” (Revelation 2:23)
“Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries,
fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.” (Matthew 15:19)
John 2 above occurred months before the Holy Spirit took Jesus’ place (John 14:16-26).

Paul (Jewish scholar) just repeated what his Old Covenant Scriptures say
“As it is written: ‘There is none righteous, no, not one … there is none who does good,
no, not one.’ ”[sup] [/sup](Romans 3:10-12). Paul is quoting here from Psalm 53:2-3.
“The Scripture has confined all under sin …” (Galatians 3:22)
“… through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin,
and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned …” (Romans 5:12)
“… through one man’s offense judgment came to all men,
resulting in condemnation … in Adam all die …” (1 Corinthians 15:18, 22)
“And you (believer) He made alive, who were (spiritually) dead in trespasses and sins
… (we previously) were by nature children of (God’s) wrath,
just as the others (everyone else).” (Ephesians 2:1-3)

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
… If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him (God) a liar …” (1 John 1:8-10)

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This may seem like I am splitting hairs but it is so
important to understand what Paul is teaching us.

The book of Romans is really Paul's course in theology.
In his fifth chapter he shows the comparison between
Adam and Christ in the process of justifying all men.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin
entered into the world, and death through
sin, and so death spread to all men,
because [eph ho, "on which"] all sinned-.

This tells us that through Adam, sin entered the world,
along with its penalty, death. Adam's sin was then
imputed to all of us, not only to His descendants, but
indeed to all of creation, which groans in travail
because of it (Rom. 8:22).

22 For we know that the whole creation groans
and suffers the pains of childbirth together until
now.

Adam's sin was imputed to us. That simply means, we
were blamed for his sin, though it was an act done
outside of ourselves. And thus, we all had to pay the
penalty for Adam's sin, which is death. This is why we
are all mortal. We are not mortal because WE sinned;
we are mortal because Adam sinned, and his sin was
imputed to us.

By the same process, the righteousness of Jesus is an
act done outside of ourselves, but which is imputed to us.
Thus, we benefit from its effect-life, or immortality.

I will say it again:

Adam's sin was imputed to all men, making us all liable
for Adam's sin. This does not mean we are actually guilty
of Adam's sin. We had nothing to do with it, for it was
committed totally outside of ourselves. But God in His
sovereignty imputed his sin to our accounts, calling what
is not as though it were (Rom. 4:17). This would be a
gross injustice; in fact, it would be a false accusation on
God's part, except for the fact that Jesus came to impute
His righteousness to our accounts as well. In so doing,
He reversed entirely the effects of this "temporary
injustice" (as I call it). And this is why it is so important
that "all men" who died in Adam be saved in Christ. This
is also Paul's conclusion in Romans 5:18.

18 So then as through one transgression there
resulted condemnation to all men, even so
through one act of righteousness there resulted
justification of life to all men.

Our liability for Adam's sin simply makes us mortal in this
age. And that mortality, death reigning over us in our souls
and bodies, makes us morally sick or weak so that we are
incapable of moral perfection. So long as we are mortal,
we shall be corruptible. They go together (1 Cor. 15:53).
Thus, our mortality itself is the cause of our individual sins,
which God will deal with by means of the second death,
the lake of fire.

So the point is... Jesus didn't need a sin nature to be 100%
man. He willingly died for the sins of the whole world... and
a sin nature isn't a qualification to be a man. That's why it is
important to realize that Jesus died because it was the will
of the Spirit. He came to do the will of the Spirit and that was
exactly what he done.

Hope that has helped you a little bit but Paul's writings are
sometimes hard to understand. 2nd Peter 3:15-16,

15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation;
just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to
the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of
these things, in which are some things hard to
understand, which the untaught and unstable
distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures,
to their own destruction.

Logabe

aspen said:

This is just an analogy, but have you ever thought of God the Father as mind; Jesus as heart; and Holy Spirit as will? Jesus was God's heart broken for us on the Cross because of our sins against Him? We are taught by the Holy Spirit how to love and a new lesson we would never learn without the Fall; forgiveness?

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Makes sense to me.

Different parts of my body communicate with themselves, my brain does one thing, my mind does another, my body still more, and my soul does whatever it does (which I think that's where our minds are)

Dulzurra said:

That is exactly the crux of the matter he died in the flesh as a human, if he was fully God in divinity - immortality/infinity & power, invincibility, he could not die in the flesh if you believe this you contradict the bible. If you are fully God divine - infinity you cannot die! I repeat you cannot be both infinite & finite simultaneously. Yes he was the only one who qualified & conquered eternal death I know that nobody else has, and through his resurrection to eternal life he made that available for baptised converted genuine Christians. He paid the death penalty as a full flesh & blood human (God in identity & nature not in divinity). Since you support he was fully God as a full human Jesus, you undermine the enormous magnitude of His sacrifice. He suffered an excruciating death to pay our debt for the remission of our sins & to reconcile us to God and he could only genuinely do that as a full flesh & blood human without his full God divine attributes as explained above Heb 2:10,14,9. You also miss a crucial point that Jesus being fully human (& not simultaneously fully God) completed trusted & relied on God the Father, we are told to imitate Christ & that is one of his examples we should follow. I will not expound on this anymore.

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Jesus said no one takes his life but he lays it down. Death had no power over Him. Why is it so hard to grasp? God can be God even in the flesh, even in different manifestations of Himself and still remain in Heaven.

Seriously, is it such a mystery? If God who no man can understand can speak the universe into existance, and breathe life into beings, and speak to everyone of us at once and impart His Spirit into everyone of us at the same time,,,,,

Why would it be so far fetch that a God could make himself into different parts at the same time?

Duckybill said:

Jesus/God in the OT:

Jeremiah 17:10 (ESV)
[sup]10 [/sup]“I the Lord search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.”

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Why do you think the above verse refers to Jesus?

John Zain said:

Scripture says that ...
Jesus was NOT going around being "fully God" and able to do everything himself.

Even though Jesus, the man, had God * within him,
He still was a man and needed a lot of help from the Father and the Holy Spirit.
* It's my understanding that he had the Second Person of the Triune God within Him.

Luke 4:18
The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives (of Satan)
and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed (by demons)

Luke 5:17
Now it happened on a certain day, as He (Jesus) was teaching,
that there were Pharisees and teachers of the law sitting by,
who had come out of every town of Galilee, Judea, and Jerusalem.
And the power of the Lord was present to heal them (the multitudes).

Hebrews 10:38
... how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power,
who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil,
for God was with Him.

It is also my understanding that Jesus was NOT "fully man"
because since he was "without sin", he did not have man's sin nature.​

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There is one problem.

In ancient times tribal membership was inherited through the father's blood line. So a child born to a Jewish father and a Gentile mother would belong to the father's tribe, but would not be considered Jewish unless s/he converted at adulthood. In the same way the child of a Gentile father and a Jewish mother would be Jewish, but would have no tribal membership.

It is only recently that the Jews track tribal membership through the mother because they at least know who the mother is.
Ergo, if Joseph was not Jesus' biological father, Jesus would not have belonged to the tribe of Judah, which is one of the requirements of the Messiah.

If you are concerned about the cursed line of Jeconiah, here are a few notes:
_____________________

Reportedly, the kings of Judah did such evil that God cursed the line of Jeconiah in Jer 22:24-30, stating that no person of the seed of Jeconiah will ever sit upon the throne of David, or rule any more in Judah. Traditionally Christianity claims that since Jeconiah was cursed, the promised Messiah could not come from this male seed which was cursed. It is argued that this necessitates the virginal conception of Jesus. But, the curse against Jeconiah's male line was revoked. As Jeremiah clearly stated one could always reform his ways and actions and obey the voice of God. Then God would relent concerning the disaster that He had pronounced against one. [cf. Jeremiah 26.12-19]

How do we know that God relented concerning the curse He pronounced against Jeconiah ben Jehoiakim? In Haggai we read the following regarding Jeconiah's grandson, "I (YHVH) will take you, Zorobabel son of Salathiel, My servant", declares YHVH, "and I will make you like the signet ring for I have chosen you" declares YHVH of Armies. [2.23] The revocation of the curse by pulling off Jeconiah as "a signet ring on My right hand" is seen in making Jeconiah's grandson, Zorobabel, His "signet ring". The fact that YHVH *did* choose Zorobabel as His "servant" and that Jesus did come through Jeconiah's seed through Zorobabel (according to Matthew's genealogy) is further proof that God later cancelled the curse against Jeconiah's offspring.
_____________________

The only issue is that the Greek text of Matthew lends to the idea that Joseph wasn't the biological father. However, that is a textual corruption as the original reading is more likely to be what can be found in the Old Latin and Old Syriac translations of Matthew, where the text clearly indicate that Joseph was the biological father.

So we have a choice. If we want to hang onto the virginal conception idea, we don't have a Messiah.

... or we don't have the trinity.

Duckybill said:

Who else could it be?

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The Father God.

veteran said:

You simply don't understand what you say.

John 10:17-18
17 Therefore doth My Father love Me, because I lay down My life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of My Father.
(KJV)

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The KJV is incorrect. It is not "power", but "authority". He has this authority because the Father's commandment. Without the Father he could do nothing.

Duckybill said:

Bingo!

Jeremiah 17:10 (ESV)
[sup]10 [/sup]“I the Lord search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.”

Revelation 2:18-23 (NKJV)
[sup]18 [/sup]"And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, 'These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: [sup]19 [/sup]I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. [sup]20 [/sup]Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. [sup]21 [/sup]And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. [sup]22 [/sup]Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. [sup]23 [/sup]I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

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Do you understand the concept of the Shaliach? Here are two quotes:


“…when we live up to God’s desire; ful­fill­ing His will, becom­ing His agents as it were, we remove all sense of self from the mis­sion and bind our­selves to the source of that mis­sion by becom­ing one with our God in the ulti­mate unity of existence.”



“Shali­ach — the word means “agent” and “emis­sary” — is a halachic (Torah-legal) term for a per­son empow­ered by some­one else to act in his stead. The shali­ach first appears in the Torah in the per­son of Eliezer, whom Abra­ham com­mis­sioned to find a wife for his son, Isaac. Rebecca was selected and betrothed as a wife for Isaac by Eliezer — she was legally Isaac’s wife with­out her actual hus­band hav­ing ever set eyes on her or hav­ing exchanged a sin­gle word with her. In the words of the Tal­mud, “A person’s shali­ach is as he himself.”

There exists a halachic model (the eved or “slave”) for one who has abne­gated his will, per­son­al­ity and very iden­tity to that of his “mas­ter.” There also exists the model of the “employee” (sachir), who assumes the oblig­a­tion to per­form a cer­tain task for some­one else, but whose per­son­al­ity and iden­tity remain sep­a­rate and dis­tinct from the per­son­al­ity and iden­tity of his “employer.” The shali­ach is unique in that he or she retains a great degree of auton­omy in car­ry­ing out his mis­sion, yet at the same time becomes a vir­tual exten­sion of the per­son who com­mis­sioned him (the meshaleiach).

The shali­ach does not abne­gate his intel­lect, will, desires, feel­ings, tal­ents and per­sonal “style” to that of the one whom he rep­re­sents; rather, he enlists them in the ful­fill­ment of his mis­sion. The result of this is not a lesser bond between the two, but the con­trary: the meshaleiach is act­ing through the whole of the shali­ach — not only through the shaliach’s phys­i­cal actions, but also through the shaliach’s per­son­al­ity, which has become an exten­sion of the meshaleiach’s personality.”

veteran said:

If you have to ask that, then it suggests you don't really believe that only Jesus Christ can save us. Your idea opens up false belief that another besides Jesus Christ might also have been sinless.




If you believe Jesus did need to be "fully God" to overcome all without sinning, then why have you denied that He was fully God while in the flesh in your previous posts?

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We are exhorted in Philippians to be like him and in 1 John to walk like he did. If he was God these make absolutely no sense, for we can never be like God. Only another human being, who "learned obedience through the things he suffered" can help up to live in obedience like he did, for he showed us that it can be done.

Duckybill said:

John 1 The Word was God. The Word became flesh.

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The problem is that Christians have this external definition of "the word of God" and it is the bible. Another definition is that the "word" is Jesus in his preincarnate state. But even this latter definition is derived from a very late theological definition.

Hundreds of years before Jesus wisdom was already equated with the Torah, because obviously it is a wise thing to obey God. According to ancient Jewish tradition, like a master architect that first draws up a plan and then builds the house.

The terms such as "way", "truth", "light" and "life" are also terms related to the Torah. Hence, the early disciples called themselves "The Way" .