Jesus is Michael

Curtis said:

Why Jesus is NOT Michael:

1. Michael is one among many princes (Daniel 10:13); Jesus is one of a kind (John 3:16; Revelation 19:16)
   
   
2. Jesus created the angels (Colossians 1:16), including Michael
   
   
3. Jesus is higher than the angels (Hebrews 1:1-14; 2:1-18)
   1. Angels are not Sons (Hebrews 1:5) ; Jesus is God’s Son (Matthew 3:17)
      
      
   2. Angels worship the Son (Hebrews 1:6; Revelation 19:10; 22:8-9)
      
      
   3. Angels will not rule the world (Hebrews 2:5); Jesus will (Psalm 2:6)
4. Michael does not rebuke Satan (Jude 9); Jesus does (Matthew 4:10; 16:
5. Michael is distinguished from the Lord (Jude 9; Philippians 2:11)
   
   
6. Jesus (Revelation 12:5) is distinguished from Michael (Revelation 12:7). How could Jesus be Michael if they are both separate characters in the same story?

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1. Michael is one of the "chief" "princes" (ruler). [A.] Two main princes (rulers) in the Great Controversy (Rev. 12), Michael (Prince of Peace) & Dragon (Prince of Devils). [B.] There are many chief princes (Isaiah 43:28 KJB) of the sanctuary (High Priests), and Jesus is among them, as High Priest. [C.] There are many rulers of kingdoms, and Jesus is a ruler, as King over Israel (Numbers 23:21 KJB) and Revelation 19:16 shows that Jesus is a King over other Kings (Christians) that does not negate that He is "one of the chief princes (rulers)", as shown. [D.] Jesus is the "last Adam" (1 Corinthians 15:45 KJB), and as such is the Head representative of the family of this world, while there are head representatives of the other unfallen worlds, also called "sons of God" (Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7, etc KJB). [E.]. Michael as Archangel is then also one among other Archangels (though He is the highest), such as Gabriel, also an archangel. Even satan is an arch angel. [F.] Among the "apostles", Jesus is the Highest "Apostle" (Hebrews 3:1 KJB). That Jesus is the only begotten Son (same nature of Deity, as His Father), does not mean that Jesus is also not among His "fellows" (Hebrews 1:9 KJB, heavenly angelic messengers like Gabriel) as highest messenger, anointed above them.

2. Jesus created all created angels, Hebrews 1:7, "maketh". Jesus is the "angel of the covenant" (Malachi 3:1), see also Revelation 10:1, etc. He is the one like His Father (which is what Michael, a symbolic name (even as "Dragon" is a symbolic name for the devil)), and is uncreated and eternal, but in the position of highest messenger for the Father (thus Arch-angel). The Holy Spirit is also an uncreated and eternal "angel" (Revelation 18:1). You see the Son is like the Father, in that the Son also has two (created) guardian angels (Gabriel and 'herald' (an unnamed messenger)) with Him at all times (see Genesis 3, 11, 17-19; Daniel 7-12, NT Gospels at the resurrection, etc), and thus so too the eternal Father, has His two (uncreated and eternal) guardian angels (covering Him), the Son (Michael/Jesus), and the Holy Ghost (the unnamed, another Comforter).

3. Jesus is higher than all the created (Hebrews 1:7) angelic hosts, that is true (thus Arch (ruler over, or chief) Angel (Messenger)), but they are also called his "fellows" (Hebrews 1:9 KJB), as messengers, since Jesus in Hebrews 1:1-3 is the highest messenger sent by the Father, above prophets (human angels/messengers) and Heavenly messengers like Gabriel. Angels are "sons" (Job 1:6, 2:1; Psalms 89:6; James 1:17 KJB, etc), just not like "the Son" (the only begotten, the one who shares the eternal nature of Deity with the Father). The created angelic hosts like Gabriel have flesh natures (1 Corinthians 15:38-40 KB; Hebrews 2;16; Jude 1:7 KJB, etc) of their own. All created (Hebrews 1:7 KJB) angels indeed worship the Son. Created angels will indeed not rule the world. However, the Son is Head of this world, and is the Highest Messenger (uncreated and eternal "angel") of the Father in Heaven to this world (Hebrews1:1-3 KJB, etc).

4. Michael/Jesus does not rebuke satan with a "railing accusation" or blasphemous accusation, for that would be like what the devil does, and Jesus would never do that. Since the name Michael archangel is used, Jesus came on behalf of the Father to resurrect Moses, as highest messenger, and therefore can only say what the Father gave the Son to say, like as in the NT (John 12:49 KJB). In Zechariah 3:2, the "LORD" (the Son, called "Angel of the LORD (Father) in Zechariah 3:1 KJB)) does the same thing by saying to the devil, "the LORD (the Father) rebuke thee". Jude 1:9 and Zechariah 3:2 are parallel in language.

John 12:49 - For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

In Matthew 4:10,16, Jesus was given authority from the Father to say what He did at that time. You do not seem to understand the timing (Ecclesiastes 3:1 KJB).

5. In Jude, Michael is distinguished from the "Lord", because it is the Son being distinguished from the Father. Both are LORD or Lord. Thus, like in Daniel 7, the Son is called "son of man", and Father called "Ancient of Days". In Zechariah 3:1-2, the Son is distinguished from the Father there as in Jude, for in Zechariah 3:1, the Son (Michael) is called "angel of the LORD" (messenger of the Father), and in Zechariah 3:2, the Son is called "LORD", who rebukes satan in the name of the Father for it is written, "the LORD ("the Son, the 'angel of the LORD, vs 1') said unto Satan, The LORD (the Father) rebuke thee". Again, same language, parallel in speak. In Philippians 2:11, the Son (Michael/Jesus) is called "Lord", no issue. However, so is the Father:

2 Timothy 1:18 - The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.

Two "Lord's". One is the Father, the other the Son.

When Michael is called "Prince" it means ruler, or Lord. See Joshua 5:14, "captain", same word, in Daniel 10 & 12 [H8269]. It doesn't mean lesser in Being. It simply refers to a position of rulership.

6. I do desire you to see the study notes at the end, for it deeply answers this question about the several names and designations of both the Son and of the devil in Revelation 12. Just as the Son has several names designations in Revelation 12, so too the devil. They battle one another from heaven to earth. See Chapter 7 specifically. Jesus and Michael are not contrasted. They are the same person at differing stages of the Great Controversy, identified by differing names/symbols. The structure itself, in unbreakable chiasm (inherent structure inspired of the Holy Ghost), demonstrates this.

Notice the chiastic structure.

[A1] Revelation 12:1-5 KJB = Woman, Child and Dragon

[B1] Revelation 12:6 KJB = Woman in Wilderness for 1,260 days [years]

[C1] Revelation 12:7-9 KJB = War between Michael and Satan in Heaven

[D1] Revelation 12:10 KJB = Cross, Power of Christ, His Victory

[D2] Revelation 12:11 KJB = Lamb, Blood of Christ, Their [overcoming saints] Victory in Him

[C2] Revelation 12:12 KJB = Dragon permanently cast down to Earth fights against Jesus' body

[B2] Revelation 12:13-16 KJB = Woman in Wilderness, for a time, and times, and half a time [aka, 3 1/2 times or 1,260 days [years]]

[A2] Revelation 12:17 KJB = Woman, her Seed and Dragon

An example of another parallelism within the greater:

Revelation 12:7 KJB - And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

[A1] Michael – Leader

[B1] his angels – Followers

[A2] Dragon – Leader

[B2] his angels - Followers

Curtis said:

Why Jesus is NOT Michael:

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Looking at these two combatants, compare the surrounding context, this time starting with “the Dragon”, followed with “Michael”:

[1] “the Dragon” and his several titles in Revelation 12:

“Dragon” - Revelation 12:3,4,7,9,13,16,17 KJB

“serpent” - Revelation 12:9,14,15 KJB

“Devil” - Revelation 12:9,12 KJB

“Satan” - Revelation 12:9 KJB

“accuser of our brethren” - Revelation 12:10 KJB

“his” [angels] - Revelation 12:7,9 KJB

Compare also:

“neither was their place found any more in heaven” - Revelation 12:8 KJB

“was cast out … cast out into the earth” - Revelation 12:9 KJB

“is cast down” - Revelation 12:10 KJB

[2] “Michael” and his several titles in Revelation 12:

“Michael” - Revelation 12:7 KJB

“Lamb” - Revelation 12:11 KJB

“child” - Revelation 12:2,4,5 KJB

“man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron” - Revelation 12:5,13 KJB

“seed” - Revelation 12:17 KJB

“it” - Revelation 12:4 KJB

“Jesus” [even the “testimony” of] - Revelation 12:17 KJB

“Christ” - Revelation 12:10,17

“his” [angels] – Revelation 12:7 KJB

Compare also:

“caught up unto God, and to his throne.” - Revelation 12:5 KJB

“rule all” - Revelation 12:5 KJB

After considering these things, let some questions be asked, and fill them in by the texts of the King James Bible themselves:

Who is the “Dragon” of Revelation 12:3,4,7,9,13,16,17 KJB?

Who is the “serpent” of Revelation 12:9,14,15 KJB?

Who is the “devil” of Revelation 12:9,12 KJB?

Who is the “Satan” of Revelation 12:9 KJB?

Who is the “accuser of the brethren” of Revelation 12:10 KJB?

Who was “cast out” of Revelation 12:9 KJB?

Who was “cast down” of Revelation 12:10 KJB?

Who is the one which “cast out of his mouth water as a flood” of Revelation 12:15,16 KJB?

Are there any “angels” which belong, “his”, to the singular person in the verses cited, KJB?

Does the fallen arch-rebel have many designations, KJB?

According to the text of Revelation 12:7 KJB, what is the arch-rebel's designation in “heaven” in this verse?

Who opposes the “Dragon”?

Who opposes the “serpent”?

Who opposes the “devil”?

Who opposes the “Satan”?

Who opposes the “accuser of the brethren”?

Whose “angels” oppose the “angels” of that "Dragon"?

Curtis said:

Why Jesus is NOT Michael:

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Revelation 12 KJB:

Is there a “woman” and a “child” and a “Dragon” in Revelation 12:1-6 KJB?

Is there a “woman” entering into a “wilderness” for “a thousand two hundred and threescore days” [1,260 days; aka “1 time + 2 times [dual; plural of time] and half/dividing of time”; aka “42 months”] in Revelation 12:6 KJB?

Is there a “war” in “Heaven” between “Michael” [and “his angels”] and “the Dragon” [and “his angels”], wherein “the Dragon and his angels” were “cast out” and “neither was their place found any more in heaven” in Revelation 12:7-9 KJB?

Did the “power of his [the Father's] Christ” on earth gain the “victory” and “salvation” over and from the “accuser of our brethren” in Revelation 12:10 KJB?

Did “they” on earth also “overcome” “him” [the accuser] by the “blood of the lamb” and by “the word of their testimony” in Revelation 12:11 KJB?

Is there “rejoic[ing]” in the “Heavens” for them “that dwell in them”, but yet “woe” to the “inhabiters of the earth and of the sea” for the “Dragon” being cast out of “Heaven” is now “come down” unto them and was full of “wrath” and “persecuted” the Church in Revelation 12:12-13 KJB?

Is there a “woman” entering into a “wilderness” for “a time, and times, and half a time ” [1 time + 2 times [dual; plural of time] and half/dividing of time' aka 1,260 days [“a thousand two hundred and threescore days”]; aka “42 months”] in Revelation 12:14 KJB?

Is there a “woman” and the “remnant” of “her seed” [aka “child”] and a “Dragon” in Revelation 12:15-17 KJB?

Revelation 12 KJB

Whose “angels” oppose the “angels” of that Michael"?

Who opposes the one which has the True “testimony"?

Who opposes the “Christ”, even "Jesus Christ"?

Who opposes the “child", even the "man child" and "it"?

Who opposes the “lamb”?

Who opposes “Michael”?

According to the text of Revelation 12:7 KJB, what is the arch-defender's designation in “heaven” in this verse?

Does the Son of God have many designations?

Are there any “angels” which belong, “his”, to the singular person in the verses cited, KJB?

Who is the one who has a “testimony” of Revelation 12:17 KJB?

Who is the one to “who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron” of Revelation 12:5 KJB?

Who is the one “caught up” of Revelation 12:5 KJB?

Who is the “seed” of Revelation 12:17 KJB?

Who is the “child” and “man child” and “it” of Revelation 12:2,4,5,13 KJB?

Who is the “Christ” and “Jesus Christ” of Revelation 12:10,17 KJB?

Who is the “lamb” of Revelation 12:11 KJB?

Who is “Michael” of Revelation 12:7 KJB?

If the structure is truly Chiastic in its nature, then can the identification of the beings therein ever be broken [even according to John 10:35 KJB]?

If the Church is the Woman on the earth, and she the Body in Revelation 12:11-13 KJB and the Dragon fought against her, who then is the Heavenly Head in Revelation 12:7-9 KJB, who the Dragon warred against there?

Feel free to use the following studies to aid you to correct theology regarding this.


Michael The Archangel [X7] - Appendix 7 - Daniel 11.1 20 KJB, 3 Angels Messages, A Work In Progress



Michael The Archangel [X5] - Appendix 5 - The Cross Throughout The Bible And In The Sanctuary


Michael The Archangel [X4] - Appendix 4 - The Son Of The Father, Jesus, Who Is JEHOVAH Emmanuel, The Eternal And Great I AM, God Manifest In The Flesh


Michael The Archangel [X3] - Appendix 3 - The Many Names And Titles Of The Son Of The Father - Jesus


Michael The Archangel [X2] - Appendix 2 - The Short Historical List Of Those Who Taught Jesus Is Michael


Michael The Archangel [X1] - Appendix 1 - The Epistles Of Peter & Jude Compared


Michael The Archangel [12] - The Plan Of Redemption Who Is Like Unto God Daniel 11.40 45, 12.1 3


Michael The Archangel [11] - Messengers Of The LORD & The Reformation & Etc


Michael The Archangel [10] - Questions And Answers About Michael Archangel Jesus Texts


Michael The Archangel [09] - The Comparisons Of The Angel Of The LORD Throughout The KJB


Michael The Archangel [08] - The Great Controversy; Michael Vs Dragon


Michael The Archangel [07] - Revelation 12, An Unbreakable Chiastic Structure


Michael The Archangel [06] - The Two Princes


Michael The Archangel [05] - Michael The Great Prince Of Daniel


Michael The Archangel [04] - Archangels In The KJB And In The SoP-ToJ


Michael The Archangel [03] - The Word Angel As Defined And Used


Michael The Archangel [02] - The Basic Definitions


Michael The Archangel [01] - Locating The Main Texts


Michael The Archangel [00B] - The Introduction


Michael The Archangel [00A] - The Table Of Contents


Michael The Archangel [X6] Appendix 6 – Daniel & The Revelation Compared, 7 Branch Candlestick


AWHN - Bible - Michael Wikipedia


Doctrine - Michael Archangel - Francis N Lee - Michael Archangel Short Notes


Doctrine - Michael Archangel - Francis N Lee - Jesus Is Michael


Doctrine - Michael Archangel - Archangels - Another Study, Not All Correct But Good


Amazing Facts - Pocket Book - Doug Batchelor - Who Is Michael The Archangel

Taken said:

Harmonizing Scripture reveals Knowledge.
What do you think is...the meaning of:

Matt 28:
[19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Why three Names ?
What are the three Names ?

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Names? Only two have names because only two are actual personages. Only one of these is God. (John 17:3)

This verse acknowledges the role that each has played in the spiritual journey one undertakes on the way to baptism, which is not simply sprinkling an infant with water and muttering some scripture before people who are merely engaging in a ritual that their church has promoted since time immemorial.

Each one of these will have played a vital part when the person's individual journey is complete and he/she becomes a dedicated disciple of Jesus Christ, symbolized by complete immersion of the candidate in 'dying' to their former life course and being 'raised' as a new person in imitation of Jesus himself.

The expression "in the name of" indicates representation. A police officer can say "stop in the name of the Law"....he is not the law, but a representative of it. The law gives him his authority. So "in the name of the Father" acknowledges the way the Father has "drawn" this individual and was invited by him to come to his son. (John 6:44;65)

"In the name of the son" is acknowledging that Jesus' as redeemer has also played a vital role in one's salvation....without which no human on earth could be saved. The Father "sent" his son to do that for us (making them both Saviors) and the holy spirit also played a vital role in opening the hearts of those individuals whom God has drawn to his son. In the first century the Christians had first hand experience regarding the operation of God's spirit....it was there in front of their eyes so it was hard to deny....but today we have what Paul said were the more important aspects of our faith. These would demonstrate our maturity, not requiring the things seen as important but the things unseen. (1 Corinthians 13:11, 13; 2 Corinthians 4:18)

So, when you see a trinity....I see something way more meaningful and in accord with what the rest of the scriptures teach....there is no trinity in the Bible. Even the Catholic church who introduced it into official church doctrine in the 4th century admits that it is not scriptural. So why would I support something my Lord Jesus never taught?

ReChoired said:

Does the Son of God have many designations?

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That is a very lengthy post in order to support a TOTALLY false doctrine. Yes Christ has many names and titles, but one of them is NOT "Michael the Archangel". Michael in Hebrew means "Who is like God?" So Michael is telling you through his name "Stop equating me with God, since there is none like God".

Enoch111 said:

That is a very lengthy post in order to support a TOTALLY false doctrine. Yes Christ has many names and titles, but one of them is NOT "Michael the Archangel". Michael in Hebrew means "Who is like God?" So Michael is telling you through his name "Stop equating me with God, since there is none like God".

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Jesus made all things that were created, without exception, says scripture - thus if He were an angel, HE CREATED HIMSELF - it’s absurd for them to try to make ‘the mighty God and everlasting Father’ from Isaiah 9, into a created angel.

Taken said:

You don’t believe Jesus taught he IS God?

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No, I do not see a single passage of scripture where either God or his son directly state that Jesus is Almighty God, or even claim equality with his Father.

Aunty Jane said:

No, I do not see a single passage of scripture where either God or his son directly state that Jesus is Almighty God, or even claim equality with his Father.

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As a humble servant and man on earth, the Father was greater in STATUS than He, (John 14:28)— yet Jesus Is equal in NATURE to the Father, so He and the Father are one, (John 10:30) and He who has seen Him has seen the Father (John 14:9).

marks said:

Would you mind simplifying what you're pasting here?

Jesus humbled Himself. What was He before He humbled Himself? He took on the form of a servant. Who Is He that He took on a form? Do you understand what I'm asking?

"He put on the uniform of a fireman." What was he before? A man in streetclothes. Like that.

So I answer this way. Before Jesus took the form of a servant, He was sovereign. But He became fashioned as a man, and took on the role of a man.

Much love!

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Do you not know you are the very image of God too!

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

This does not make you God of the universe, just like Jesus... Both you and Jesus have a God! This is written over and over in our Scriptures. Stop ignoring scripture that disagrees with your view... Either you are wrong or scripture is wrong... Tell me who's wrong, you or scripture?

Paul

Pierac said:

Do you not know you are the very image of God too!

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

This does not make you God of the universe, just like Jesus... Both you and Jesus have a God! This is written over and over in our Scriptures. Stop ignoring scripture that disagrees with your view... Either you are wrong or scripture is wrong... Tell me who's wrong, you or scripture?

Paul

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Yes, we were created in God's image. Jesus was born in a human body, and in so doing, He humbled Himself, taking upon Himself the form of a servant. The question remains unanswered by you, what was He before?

We did not "take on the image of God", so your comparison isn't valid.

Stop ignoring blah blah blah. Tell me who is wrong, you or God? We all know the answer to such a ridiculous and meaningless question. It's just distraction at best and personal antagonism at worst. Best not to write such things in my opinion.

Much love!

marks said:

It sounds like you are answering a different question again. So it's not really helping.

That the Holy One is born isn't what I'm asking.

You say, His glorious presence at work, yes, incarnating the Messenger of YHWH, Who is Himself YHWH. Creating is not named in your passage here. Nor in your quote from the NET Bible notes, which you do not attribute to them. Were you the writer of those notes?

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Then your saying conception is not considered being created? So your saying you were not created in your mother womb?

It's people like you that give support to killing Babies before they are born... Saying they are not human and don't exist! Shame on you... SHAME!!!

marks said:

Yes, we were created in God's image. Jesus was born in a human body, and in so doing, He humbled Himself, taking upon Himself the form of a servant. The question remains unanswered by you, what was He before?

We did not "take on the image of God", so your comparison isn't valid.

Stop ignoring blah blah blah. Tell me who is wrong, you or God? We all know the answer to such a ridiculous and meaningless question. It's just distraction at best and personal antagonism at worst. Best not to write such things in my opinion.

Much love!

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I have a simple YES or NO question!!!

So Mark my very simple question is... Does Jesus have a GOD?

Can't make it easier for you Mark... It's either YES or NO

MARK does Jesus have a GOD...?

YES or NO

I await your Yes or No answer...

Enoch111...

I'm still waiting for you to post what YOU believe Philippians 2:5-11 is saying. As in detail... please describe it's meaning...
Like I said... Please do a little work, put in at least 8000 words of more
Paul

Pierac said:

Then your saying conception is not considered being created? So your saying you were not created in your mother womb?

It's people like you that give support to killing Babies before they are born... Saying they are not human and don't exist! Shame on you... SHAME!!!

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I said nothing of the kind. These are words you are putting in my mouth, then launching yourself against them. You reveal yourself here.

That I'm created is not evidence that Jesus, Who Himself created me, was Himself created.

Your accusations and shaming are nothing more than distraction. You don't have to reply at all, you know. I mean really, you have to call me a baby-killer?

This isn't what I'm here for, so, so long!

Much love!

marks said:

Scripture teaches Jesus was created by the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary... thus the Son of God was created... at that time
Luk 1:35 The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
But where does it say Jesus was created? I don't see that in your quote here.
Much love!

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marks said:

I said nothing of the kind. These are words you are putting in my mouth, then launching yourself against them. You reveal yourself here.

That I'm created is not evidence that Jesus, Who Himself created me, was Himself created.

Your accusations and shaming are nothing more than distraction. You don't have to reply at all, you know. I mean really, you have to call me a baby-killer?

This isn't what I'm here for, so, so long!

Much love!

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There you said it... Being concieved in the womb of Mary is not being considered as a human being. a new creation from God

Now answer my Yes or No question...

@Taken you asked....
Why do you not Accept God Sent Himself according to His order and way?

The simple answer from my viewpoint is that he didn’t have to.
In order to redeem the human race, God needed a faithful servant to fulfill a mission that would see the Father restore his original purpose for the earth and mankind upon it.

Let me paint a picture for you because the big picture explains what isolated bits and pieces never could....I apologise for the length of this but I can explain it no other way.....not being a toddler...

The big picture for me comes into focus when we ask why God put humans on planet earth in the first place.....what was his purpose in connection with us here? Did he ever intend to take any human to heaven? Did he ever need to come to the earth himself to rectify a problem....any problem?

Jehovah created a vast material universe and obviously had a long term plan concerning it. So in all that vast universe, he chose one small planet in one part of one galaxy among millions, and began the first part of his agenda. He prepared this planet incrementally, and the preparation included habitats for all the living things he created to share life with the caretakers that he would create ‘in his own image’. (They would therefore take care of this planet as he himself would.)

These would be his crowning achievement at the end of the 6th creative day. He told his human creatures to “be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it”. They were to have dominion over all of creation and fill the earth with their kind, creating more workers for the task he assigned to them.....“subduing” the world outside of the garden that he planted as a blueprint for the rest of the planet. God wanted the whole world to look like the garden of Eden....and he gave humans the ability, and the satisfying task of becoming creators of beautiful places themselves....after all they were to be the ones who were going to enjoy it....forever.

Humans would be unique among the living creatures in that they would have a level of intelligence along with free will, abilities and choices that those in the animal kingdom would not have. The humans would represent their Creator here, and they alone were given the opportunity for everlasting life, though not immortality. All they had to do to maintain their lives eternally was to obey one simple command.

Enter the first rebel.....who was not human.....and the Bible then relates what happened to lead the first humans into disobedience in an attempt to gain worship for himself. The issue now became universal as it involved his angels as well as the newly created humans.

It is my belief that the creative days were not 24 hours, but very lengthy periods of time in which the Creator, (who is not limited by earth time) brought all things into existence in stages over a vast period, breaking these “days” up in a logically planned order. At the end of each period, God expressed his satisfaction with each one, declaring it “good”. Then began the next “day” and it’s planned achievements.

When Jehovah had finished his creative work, his expression was heightened, in that everything was now “very good”....so all was as he had planned for it to be. But the 7th day (when he rested only from his creative work) has no stated conclusion, because I believe that it is still ongoing. God set aside this period for all eventualities concerning his free willed children to be ironed out. So we are still in the 7th day. When it is completed, then God will again declare the end of this day.....”very good”.

God allowed things to play out naturally without his intervention and for all eventualities to surface and to be dealt with.
We see many things that God did to deal with what his (now sinful) children had done since their original rebellion in Eden, but only when things were interfering with his stated purpose. e.g...The events leading up to the flood of Noah’s day.....the confusing of the language at Babel and after the formation of the nation he chose to bring forth his Messiah.

The rocky history of the nation of Israel taught us more about the consequences of disobedience than anything they did that was good. Sometimes bad examples teach us bigger lessons.

The need for the Messiah was obvious, but he was not sent to simply save Israel because Abraham was told that “all the nations” would be “blessed” by the role played by him. So now we get to the nitty gritty of WHO the Messiah was and why he was sent.

The Messiah had to be 100% human in order to redeem fallen mankind, plunged into sin through no fault on their part. Jesus was sent to undo the damage that Adam’s sin had caused them. If Jesus was God, that would be impossible because firstly, God is immortal and cannot die. Mere humans cannot kill God.

Secondly, if the Messiah did not die the same death as Adam, no redemption was possible. It is a set price...no more and no less than what was demanded. God’s Law was “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth and a life for a life”. The life offered had to be the exact equivalent of the life that was lost....if God himself had come to earth as a human, then the overpayment would have been ridiculous. The only requirement for the redeemer was that he be sinless...which is why Jesus had to come from outside the now sinful human race.

God sent his most trusted servant to do the job....and he willingly came to offer his human life for us. (Acts 4:27)
Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son in an illustration in human terms of what God was doing in sacrificing his precious son because God had commanded it. Abraham was not asked to sacrifice himself.

Jesus in his pre-human existence was never God. He was the “Son of God” from his creation. This Son was the very first and only direct creation of his Father....his “firstborn” and “only begotten”. (Colossians 1:15; John 3:16)
He was “sent” not by himself but by his God and Father. (John 17:3)

This is why Jesus can never be God to me. No scripture says he is, or ever was. (The Father is still his “God” even in heaven. Revelation 3:12)

Understanding the word “theos” in Greek holds the key. All people need to do is research this word and find out that Jesus can be “theos” (a god) without being “ho theos” (The one God of Israel) The teaching of the trinity masks that fact.
Jesus can be “divine” without being “deity”.

I hope that answers you question....

Pierac said:

So Mark my very simple question is... Does Jesus have a GOD?

Click to expand...

Yes:

KJB Matthew 22:43-45, 27:46; Mark 15:34; Luke 20:41-44; John 20:17

Jesus, as a man (1 Timothy 2:5 KJB), is not an atheist, but was a Jew of the tribe of Juda (Hebrews 7:14; Revelation 5:5 KJB) and thus worshipped His Father (JEHOVAH), who is eternal Deity. Jesus, as Deity, is the eternal Son of the eternal Father, and positionally the Father is above the Son (Genesis 41:40 KJB), but in regards creation they are both LORD over all creation, and sit in the same throne of Deity together, the Son always at the right hand of the Father. The Son's nature, as Deity is the same as that of His Father, from whom it derives. Thus the Father is identified as "τὸν μόνον ἀληθινὸν θεὸν ... τὸν θεόν ... ὁ θεός" (John 17:3, John 1:1; Hebrews 1:9) and the Son is identified as "τοῦ μονογενοῦς υἱοῦ ... θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος ... ὁ θεός" (John 3:18, John 1:1; Hebrews 1:9). Both are identified by the name JEHOVAH ("LORD") in Scripture.

alethinon means underived, original, true (that which all is measured against, standard)
genous means of the same nature as that which it is compared/in relation to

A father does not derive their nature from a son, but a son does derive their nature from a father. The Son is in the "express image" (uncreated and eternal) of the Father (Hebrews 1:3 KJB).

See also Exodus 20:12. Jesus always honoured His Father (John 8:49 KJB).

Yet, in so saying, Jesus is also eternal God (Deity), John 1:1, 5:18; Philippians 2:6 KJB. He is "God" (Person/Being of the Son) who was with "the God" (Person/Being of the Father) in the beginning, Genesis 1.

The Father - "God said ..." (speaking to the Son)
The Son - "And God made ..." (the Son making on behalf of the Father's instruction/word)
The Holy Spirit - "And God saw ... moved ..." (the Spirit eternally as witness, which is why we have Genesis 1, and moves at the word of the Son)