The Two Laws

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Brakelite

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The Two Laws, JN Andrews.
"
THERE is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things." 1 Corinthians 8:6. From him all beings derive their existence. He who creates and upholds has certainly the right to govern and control. Hence it is that he is represented in the Scriptures as the one Lawgiver who is able to save and to destroy. James 4:12. Existence being derived from the benevolence of the Creator, all intelligent creatures are amenable to his just government. Of all the creatures made by God to inhabit the earth, man alone is capable of learning the distinction of right and wrong, and he alone is placed under the control of moral law. Deriving his existence from a Being of infinite purity, he was himself once innocent, pure and upright. He was the creature and the loyal subject of God, and God was the author of his existence and his rightful Sovereign. But God did not sustain toward man the character of a Saviour and Redeemer, for man needed not pardon.
As a creature owing all to God, the author of his existence, it is self-evident that he was under the highest obligation to love him with all his heart. The existence of other human beings originates a second great obligation, viz., to love our neighbor as ourselves. This precept is also one of self-evident obligation; for others are equally the creatures of God with ourselves, and have the same rights that we also have. These two precepts are the sum of all moral law. And they grow out of the fact that we owe all to God, and that others are the creatures of God as well as ourselves.
In rendering obedience to the first of these two precepts, man could have no other gods before the Lord; nor could he worship idols; neither could he speak the name of God in an irreverent manner; nor could he neglect the hallowed rest-day of the Lord, which was set apart at creation in memory of the Creator's rest.
Equally evident is it that our duty toward our fellow men comprehends our duty to our parents, and the strictest regard to the life, chastity, property, character and interests of others.
The moral law thus divided into two parts, and drawn out and expressed in ten precepts, is of necessity unchangeable in its character. Its existence grows out of immutable relations which man sustains toward God, and toward his fellow man. It is God's great standard of right, and after man's rebellion, the great test by which sin is shown.
Where shall we look for the record of such a moral code as we have noticed? In the earliest possible place in the Bible, certainly. And yet the book of Genesis contains no moral code whatever. How can this mystery be explained? A few facts will remove the difficulty. The book of Genesis was not written until about 2500 years after the creation. As it was written long after the patriarchs were dead, it could not have been a rule of life for them. It is a brief record of events that occurred during that period, and contains several allusions to an existing moral code. But the book of Exodus which brings the narrative down to the author's own time, introduces this code under circumstances of the greatest solemnity. In this book is found the law of God as given by himself in person, and written with his own finger on stone. Indeed, the evidence indicates that no part of the Bible was written until after the ten commandments had been spoken and written by God, and consequently that code is the earliest writing in existence.
Such was the origin of the moral law, and such the character of its precepts. Its proclamation by God himself, prior to his causing any part of the Bible to be written sufficiently attests the estimate which he placed upon it. From its very nature it exists as early as the principles of morality; indeed it is nothing but those principles expressed or written out. These principles do not owe their existence to the fall of man, but to relations which existed prior to the fall.
But there is a system of laws that does owe its origin to sin; a system that could have had no existence had not man become a transgressor. The violation of moral law was that which gave existence to the law of rites and ceremonies, the shadow of good things to come. There could be no sacrifices for sin until man became a sinner. In Eden there could be no types and shadows pointing forward to future redemption through the death of Christ; for man in his uprightness needed no such redemption. Nor did God place upon man before his fall the obligation of carnal ordinances which look forward to the time of reformation; for man was innocent and free from guile. That it was the violation of moral law that caused the fall of man may be seen at a glance. The motive set before Eve by Satan was that they should become as gods if they ate of that tree Genesis 3; and as Adam was not deceived 1 Timothy 2:13, it is evident that he chose to follow his wife rather than to obey the Lord; an open violation of the first commandment in each case.

 

Brakelite

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When man had thus become a sinner, and God had promised the means of his redemption, a second relation toward God was brought into existence. Man was a sinner needing forgiveness, and God was a Saviour offering pardon. It is plain therefore that the typical law pointing forward to redemption through Christ owes its origin to man's rebellion, and to God's infinite benevolence. If man had not sinned he would have needed no types of future redemption, and if God had not determined to give his Son to die he would have instituted no typical system pointing forward to that great event. The existence of such a code therefore is in consequence of sin, its precepts are of a ceremonial nature, and its duration is necessarily limited by the great offering that could take away sin. From the fall of Adam till the time of Moses the typical system was gradually developed and matured; and from Moses' time until the death of our Lord, it existed as a shadow of good things to come.
At mount Sinai, as we have seen, God proclaimed the moral law, speaking it with his own voice, and writing it with his own finger. By his direction the two tables on which the law was written were placed in the ark of the covenant, which was made on purpose to receive it. Exodus 25:10-22; Deuteronomy 10:1-5. And this ark containing the law of God was placed in the second apartment of the earthly sanctuary the most holy place. Exodus 40; Hebrews 9. The top of the ark was called the mercy-seat, because that man who had broken the law contained in the ark beneath the mercy-seat could find pardon by the sprinkling of the blood of atonement upon this place. The whole system of ceremonial law was ordained to enable man to approach again to this broken law, and to typify the restitution of the pardoned to their inheritance, and the destruction of the impenitent.
The law within the ark was that which demanded an atonement; the ceremonial law which ordained the Levitical priesthood and the sacrifices for sin, was that which taught men how the atonement could be made. The broken law was beneath the mercy seat; the blood of sin offering was sprinkled upon its top, and pardon was extended to the penitent sinner. There was actual sin, and hence a real law which man had broken; but there was not a real atonement, and hence the need of the great antitype to the Levitical sacrifices. The real atonement when it is made must relate to that law respecting which an atonement had been shadowed forth. In other words the shadowy atonement related to that law which was shut up in the ark, indicating that a real atonement was demanded by that law. It is necessary that the law which demands atonement in order that its transgressor may be spared, should itself be perfect, else the fault would in part at least rest with the lawgiver, and not wholly with the sinner. Hence, the atonement when made does not take away the broken law, for that is perfect, but is expressly designed to take away the guilt of the transgressor.
In the New Testament we find the great antitype of all the offerings and sacrifices the real atonement as contrasted with the Levitical one. The death of our Lord Jesus Christ as the great sacrifice for sin, was the antitype of all the Levitical sacrifices. The priesthood of our Lord Jesus Christ in the heavenly sanctuary is the great antitype of the Levitical priesthood. Hebrews 8. The heavenly sanctuary itself is the great original after which the earthly one was patterned. Hebrews 9:23; Exodus 25:6, 9. And the ark of God's testament in the temple in heaven Revelation 11:19 contains the great original of his law. And thus we see under the new dispensation a real atonement instead of a shadowy one; a High Priest who needs not to offer for himself; a sacrifice which can avail before God; and that law which man had broken, magnified and made honorable at the same time that God pardons the penitent sinner.
We shall find the New Testament to abound with references to the essential difference between these two codes. And that the distinction in the New Testament is made as clear and obvious as it is made by the facts already noticed in the Old Testament.
Thus the one code is termed "the law of a carnal commandment" Hebrews 7:16, and of the other it is affirmed, "we know that the law is spiritual." Romans 7:14. The one code is termed "the hand-writing of ordinances," "which was contrary to us," and which was nailed to the cross and taken out of the way Colossians 2:14; the other code is "the royal law," which James affirms that it is a sin to transgress. Chap. 2:8-12. The first is a code of which "there was made of necessity a change" Hebrews 7:12; the second is that law of which Christ says, "Till heaven and earth pass one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:18. The one law was a "shadow of good things to come" Hebrews 10:1, and was only imposed "until the time of reformation" Hebrews 9:10; but the other was a moral code of which it is said by John "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4. The one is a yoke not able to be borne Acts 15:10; the other is that "law of liberty" by which we shall be judged. James 2:8-12. The one is that law which Christ abolished in his flesh Ephesians 2:15; the other is that law which he did not come to destroy. Matthew 5:17. The one is that law which he took out of the way at his death Colossians 2:14; the other is that law which he came to magnify and make honorable. Isaiah 42:21. The one was a law which was disannulled "for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof" Hebrews 7:18; the other is a law respecting which he inquires "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid; yea we establish the Law." Romans 3:31. The one is that law which was the middle wall of partition between Jews and Gentiles Ephesians 2:14; the other is that law the work of which even the Gentiles are said to have written in their hearts Romans 2:12-15, and to which all mankind are amenable. Romans 3:19. The one is the law of commandments contained in ordinances Ephesians 2:15; the other law is the commandments of God which it is the whole duty of man to keep Ecclesiastes 12:13, which are brought to view by the third angel Revelation 14:12, which the remnant of the seed of the woman were keeping when the dragon made war upon them Revelation 12:17, and which will ensure to those who observe them, access to the tree of life. Revelation 22:14.
Surely these two codes should not be confounded. The one was magnified, made honorable, established, and is holy, just, spiritual, good, royal; the other was carnal, shadowy, burdensome; and was abolished, broken down, taken out of the way, nailed to the cross, changed, and disannulled on account of the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Those who rightly divide the word of truth will never confound these essentially different codes, nor will they apply to God's royal law the language employed respecting the hand writing of ordinances.
That the ten commandments are a perfect code of themselves appears from several facts. 1. God spake them with his own voice, and it is said "he added no more" Deuteronomy 5:22, as evincing that he had given a complete code. 2. He wrote them alone on the two tables with his own finger, another incidental proof that this was a complete moral code. 3. He caused these alone to be placed under the mercy seat, an evident proof that this was the code that made an atonement necessary. 4. He expressly calls what he thus wrote on the tables of stone, a law and commandments. Exodus 24:12.
The precepts of this law are variously interspersed through the books of Moses, and mingled with the precepts of the ceremonial law. And the sum of the first table is given in Deuteronomy 6:5; and that of the second table in Leviticus 19:18; but there is only one place in which the moral law is drawn out in particulars and given by itself with no ceremonial law mixed with it, and that is in the ten commandments.
An examination of the royal law in James 2, and of the hand-writing of ordinances in Colossians 2, will further illustrate this subject; the one is in force in every precept while the other is abolished.
"If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well; but if ye have respect to persons ye commit sin and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point he is guilty of all. For he that said Do not commit adultery, said also Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. Verses 8-12.
 

Brakelite

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1. The law here brought to view is an unabolished law, for it convinces men of sin who transgress it. 2. It is an Old Testament law it is taken from the Scriptures. 3. The second division of the law is quoted because he was reproving sin committed toward our fellow men; and hence he takes the second of the two great commandments, the sum of the second table Matthew 22:36, 40; Romans 13:9, and cites his illustration from the second table of stone. 4. His language shows that the ten commandments are the precepts of the royal law, for he cites them in illustrating the statement that he who violates one precept becomes guilty of all. This is a most solemn warning against the violation of any one of the ten commandments. 5. He testifies that whoever violates one of the precepts of this code becomes guilty of breaking the whole code. 6. And last of all he testifies that this law of liberty shall be the rule in the judgment. The unabolished law of James is therefore that code which God gave in person and wrote with his own finger.
"Blotting out the hand-writing of ordinances that was against us which was contrary to us and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days, which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Colossians 2:14, 16, 17. If this hand-writing of ordinances is the same as the royal law of James, then Paul and James directly contradict each other. But they wrote by inspiration and each wrote the truth of God. We have seen that James' unabolished law refers directly to the ten commandments. Hence, it is certain that the law which Paul shows to be abolished does not refer to that which was written with the finger of God. It is to be noticed that the code which is done away was a shadow extending only to the death of Christ. But we have already seen that the law shut up in the ark was not a shadow, but the very code which made it necessary that the Saviour should die. Not one of the things abolished in this chapter can be claimed as referring to the ten commandments except the term Sabbaths, for the term holy day is literally feast day Gr. and there were three feasts appointed by God in each year. Exodus 23:14. The term Sabbath is plural in the original. To refer this to the Sabbath of the fourth commandment is to make Paul contradict James. What are the facts in the case?
1. The ceremonial law did ordain at least four annual Sabbaths, viz., the 1st, 10th, 15th and 23rd days of the 7th month. These were besides the Sabbath of the Lord, and were associated with the new moons and feast-days. Leviticus 23:23-39. These exactly answer Paul's language. Hence it is not necessary to make Paul contradict James.
2. But the Sabbath of the Lord was "set apart to a holy use" (this being the literal meaning of sanctify) in Eden. It was "made for man" before he had fallen. Hence it is not one of the things against him and contrary to him, taken out of the way at Christ's death.
3. It was not a shadow pointing forward to the death of Christ; for it was ordained before the fall. On the contrary it stands as a memorial pointing backward to creation, and not as a shadow pointing forward to redemption.
It is plain therefore that the abrogation of the hand-writing of ordinances leaves in full force every precept of the royal law. And also that the law of shadows pointing forward to the death of Christ, must expire when that event should occur. But the moral law was that which caused the Saviour to lay down his life for us. And its sacredness may be judged of by the fact that God gave his only Son to take its curse upon himself, and to die for our transgressions. Reader, are you in rebellion against the law of God? If so, I beseech you to lay down your arms and seek pardon in the blood of Jesus before the curse of the law falls upon you. SITL 33.2 - SITL 35.4
 

Robert Gwin

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The Two Laws, JN Andrews.
"
THERE is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things." 1 Corinthians 8:6. From him all beings derive their existence. He who creates and upholds has certainly the right to govern and control. Hence it is that he is represented in the Scriptures as the one Lawgiver who is able to save and to destroy. James 4:12. Existence being derived from the benevolence of the Creator, all intelligent creatures are amenable to his just government. Of all the creatures made by God to inhabit the earth, man alone is capable of learning the distinction of right and wrong, and he alone is placed under the control of moral law. Deriving his existence from a Being of infinite purity, he was himself once innocent, pure and upright. He was the creature and the loyal subject of God, and God was the author of his existence and his rightful Sovereign. But God did not sustain toward man the character of a Saviour and Redeemer, for man needed not pardon.
As a creature owing all to God, the author of his existence, it is self-evident that he was under the highest obligation to love him with all his heart. The existence of other human beings originates a second great obligation, viz., to love our neighbor as ourselves. This precept is also one of self-evident obligation; for others are equally the creatures of God with ourselves, and have the same rights that we also have. These two precepts are the sum of all moral law. And they grow out of the fact that we owe all to God, and that others are the creatures of God as well as ourselves.
In rendering obedience to the first of these two precepts, man could have no other gods before the Lord; nor could he worship idols; neither could he speak the name of God in an irreverent manner; nor could he neglect the hallowed rest-day of the Lord, which was set apart at creation in memory of the Creator's rest.
Equally evident is it that our duty toward our fellow men comprehends our duty to our parents, and the strictest regard to the life, chastity, property, character and interests of others.
The moral law thus divided into two parts, and drawn out and expressed in ten precepts, is of necessity unchangeable in its character. Its existence grows out of immutable relations which man sustains toward God, and toward his fellow man. It is God's great standard of right, and after man's rebellion, the great test by which sin is shown.
Where shall we look for the record of such a moral code as we have noticed? In the earliest possible place in the Bible, certainly. And yet the book of Genesis contains no moral code whatever. How can this mystery be explained? A few facts will remove the difficulty. The book of Genesis was not written until about 2500 years after the creation. As it was written long after the patriarchs were dead, it could not have been a rule of life for them. It is a brief record of events that occurred during that period, and contains several allusions to an existing moral code. But the book of Exodus which brings the narrative down to the author's own time, introduces this code under circumstances of the greatest solemnity. In this book is found the law of God as given by himself in person, and written with his own finger on stone. Indeed, the evidence indicates that no part of the Bible was written until after the ten commandments had been spoken and written by God, and consequently that code is the earliest writing in existence.
Such was the origin of the moral law, and such the character of its precepts. Its proclamation by God himself, prior to his causing any part of the Bible to be written sufficiently attests the estimate which he placed upon it. From its very nature it exists as early as the principles of morality; indeed it is nothing but those principles expressed or written out. These principles do not owe their existence to the fall of man, but to relations which existed prior to the fall.
But there is a system of laws that does owe its origin to sin; a system that could have had no existence had not man become a transgressor. The violation of moral law was that which gave existence to the law of rites and ceremonies, the shadow of good things to come. There could be no sacrifices for sin until man became a sinner. In Eden there could be no types and shadows pointing forward to future redemption through the death of Christ; for man in his uprightness needed no such redemption. Nor did God place upon man before his fall the obligation of carnal ordinances which look forward to the time of reformation; for man was innocent and free from guile. That it was the violation of moral law that caused the fall of man may be seen at a glance. The motive set before Eve by Satan was that they should become as gods if they ate of that tree Genesis 3; and as Adam was not deceived 1 Timothy 2:13, it is evident that he chose to follow his wife rather than to obey the Lord; an open violation of the first commandment in each case.

I guess Jesus reply to satan at Mat 4:10 would be the greatest of the laws no doubt. Even though Christ was the end of the Law, we are still obligated to observe that one, still the greatest of the laws given to Christians.
 

Jim B

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I guess Jesus reply to satan at Mat 4:10 would be the greatest of the laws no doubt. Even though Christ was the end of the Law, we are still obligated to observe that one, still the greatest of the laws given to Christians.

You wrote that 1) Christ was the end of the Law and 2) we are still obligated to serve "that one". 1) is correct: Christ was the end of the Law, making 2) obsolete.
 

Brakelite

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You wrote that 1) Christ was the end of the Law and 2) we are still obligated to serve "that one". 1) is correct: Christ was the end of the Law, making 2) obsolete.
Correct. But which law? The only law that ended with Christ is that law which pertained to the services of the sanctuary, the meditation of the priesthood, the sacrifices and feast days that comprised the annual show and tell portrayal of the gospel.
The reason the sanctuary system was introduced was because of sin and transgression of the moral law. The ceremonial law was a temporary solution to the transgression of the moral law. Temporary until Christ. The moral law was, as Isaiah said, made honorable by the death of Christ. His death proved that the moral law could never be abolished. The moral law is still holy, just, and good.
 

Behold

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I guess Jesus reply to satan at Mat 4:10 would be the greatest of the laws no doubt. Even though Christ was the end of the Law, we are still obligated to observe that one, still the greatest of the laws given to Christians.

As long as a believer understands that discipleship is not their Salvation, then they are free to observe and maintain the commandments, and them not be a snare to them.

How can Jesus's Commandments become a snare to a believer?
When they become LEGALISM.
Its when they BELIEVE they have to keep them to go to heaven.....as when that becomes their faith, then the "Gift of Salvation", and the Blood Atonement, are set aside.

See, Justification is....>"faith is counted as righteousness".......not commandments.

Listen, as long as a believer's FAITH is simply this.....>"what saved me, is why i go to Heaven"......and that is Jesus who is the SAVIOR.
As long as THAT is your FAITH...... and not...>"as long as i do this...and keep that commandment, and dont commit that sin, and if i confess all i can remember, then i hope i dont go to hell after i die".

See all that?
That is BROKEN FAITH, as that FAITH is real FAITH.......but it is NOT Faith in Christ.
Paul says of that type BELIEVER. = you are BEWITCHED......you do not OBEY THE TRUTH.......YOU are "fallen from Grace".
 

Jim B

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Correct. But which law? The only law that ended with Christ is that law which pertained to the services of the sanctuary, the meditation of the priesthood, the sacrifices and feast days that comprised the annual show and tell portrayal of the gospel.
The reason the sanctuary system was introduced was because of sin and transgression of the moral law. The ceremonial law was a temporary solution to the transgression of the moral law. Temporary until Christ. The moral law was, as Isaiah said, made honorable by the death of Christ. His death proved that the moral law could never be abolished. The moral law is still holy, just, and good.

You wrote this: The only law that ended with Christ is that law which pertained to the services of the sanctuary, the meditation of the priesthood, the sacrifices and feast days that comprised the annual show and tell portrayal of the gospel." Where does it say this in your Bible? In my Bible it says that "For Christ is the end of the law, with the result that there is righteousness for everyone who believes." Romans 10:4, NET v2.1

It doesn't say the only law that ended with Christ is that law which pertained to the services of the sanctuary, the meditation of the priesthood, the sacrifices and feast days that comprised the annual show and tell portrayal of the gospel." It clearly says that Christ is the end of the law, not what you claim.

Romans 7:4, "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God."
 

Robert Gwin

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You wrote that 1) Christ was the end of the Law and 2) we are still obligated to serve "that one". 1) is correct: Christ was the end of the Law, making 2) obsolete.

Yes sir Jim, although many of the laws given to us through Moses are still in effect, as well as helping us to know how God thinks since He does not change. Christians are under a new covenant that Jesus instituted on the last day of his life, and went into force on Pentecost of the year 33CE with the outpouring of holy spirit on the congregation of God Acts chap 2
 

Robert Gwin

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As long as a believer understands that discipleship is not their Salvation, then they are free to observe and maintain the commandments, and them not be a snare to them.

How can Jesus's Commandments become a snare to a believer?
When they become LEGALISM.
Its when they BELIEVE they have to keep them to go to heaven.....as when that becomes their faith, then the "Gift of Salvation", and the Blood Atonement, are set aside.

See, Justification is....>"faith is counted as righteousness".......not commandments.

Listen, as long as a believer's FAITH is simply this.....>"what saved me, is why i go to Heaven"......and that is Jesus who is the SAVIOR.
As long as THAT is your FAITH...... and not...>"as long as i do this...and keep that commandment, and dont commit that sin, and if i confess all i can remember, then i hope i dont go to hell after i die".

See all that?
That is BROKEN FAITH, as that FAITH is real FAITH.......but it is NOT Faith in Christ.
Paul says of that type BELIEVER. = you are BEWITCHED......you do not OBEY THE TRUTH.......YOU are "fallen from Grace".

All Christians are sinners Behold, but those who go to heaven will be quite exemplary sir. Although I am not among them, we are still under the same laws as they, you may not consider them commandments, but I do, and if I disobey them I am still guilty even if I considered them suggestions. Perhaps Eve considered not eating of the tree a suggestion, even Adam who chose to join her in her rebellion, how did that turn out?

No sir, I fully disagree, those who truly love Jehovah obey His commandments sir 1 Jn 5:3
 

Jim B

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Yes sir Jim, although many of the laws given to us through Moses are still in effect, as well as helping us to know how God thinks since He does not change. Christians are under a new covenant that Jesus instituted on the last day of his life, and went into force on Pentecost of the year 33CE with the outpouring of holy spirit on the congregation of God Acts chap 2

We are living under a New Covenant. We are dead to the OT law -- all of it. Romans 7:4, "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God." And that is just one verse.

Here is another in greater detail: Galatians 2:15-21, " We are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified. But if I build up again those things I once destroyed, I demonstrate that I am one who breaks God’s law. For through the law I died to the law so that I may live to God. I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So the life I now live in the body, I live because of the faithfulness of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside God’s grace, because if righteousness could come through the law, then Christ died for nothing!"
 

Robert Gwin

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We are living under a New Covenant. We are dead to the OT law -- all of it. Romans 7:4, "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God." And that is just one verse.

Here is another in greater detail: Galatians 2:15-21, " We are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified. But if I build up again those things I once destroyed, I demonstrate that I am one who breaks God’s law. For through the law I died to the law so that I may live to God. I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So the life I now live in the body, I live because of the faithfulness of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside God’s grace, because if righteousness could come through the law, then Christ died for nothing!"

Make no mistake Jim, many of those laws are still binding on Christians are included in the law of the Christ. Humans have always been given free will, the right to choose, but if one desires everlasting life, the gift that God gives, then they will live within the guidelines of the law of the Christ sir. Do not let yourself be deceived as to believe we do not have laws, and that we are just free to go about our merry way and that God will save us in the end. There are requirements involved in being one of God's people.
 

Jim B

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Make no mistake Jim, many of those laws are still binding on Christians are included in the law of the Christ. Humans have always been given free will, the right to choose, but if one desires everlasting life, the gift that God gives, then they will live within the guidelines of the law of the Christ sir. Do not let yourself be deceived as to believe we do not have laws, and that we are just free to go about our merry way and that God will save us in the end. There are requirements involved in being one of God's people.

It's apparent that you don't understand the law and grace. We are dead to the law and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Romans 7:4 says this perfectly: "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God."

Your biggest mistake is saying that we are just free to go about our merry way if we're not under the law. We aren't; we're guided by the Holy Spirit to live according to the will of God. If you're a Christian you're not governed by the obsolete OT law.
 

Jim B

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One of the easiest examples of this principle is obeying the speed limit law while driving. If you're at peace you naturally drive at or below the posted speed limit. If you're governed by your own desire to get somewhere quickly then you speed, constantly checking the rear view mirror for the police, hoping that you won't have to pay the penalty. Granted this isn't a perfect analogy, but it shows that you don't need to worry about keeping the law if you aren't governed by your own selfish desire.
 
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Robert Gwin

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It's apparent that you don't understand the law and grace. We are dead to the law and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Romans 7:4 says this perfectly: "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God."

Your biggest mistake is saying that we are just free to go about our merry way if we're not under the law. We aren't; we're guided by the Holy Spirit to live according to the will of God. If you're a Christian you're not governed by the obsolete OT law.

Some laws for Christians Jim:
(1 John 4:21) And this commandment we have from him, that the one who loves God should be loving his brother also.
(1 John 3:22-24) and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we are observing his commandments and are doing the things that are pleasing in his eyes. 23 Indeed, this is his commandment, that we have faith in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and be loving one another, just as he gave us commandment. 24 Moreover, he who observes his commandments remains in union with him, and he in union with such one; and by this we gain the knowledge that he is remaining in union with us, owing to the spirit which he gave us.

(John 13:34-35) I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. 35 By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”

(Matthew 28:18-20) And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

(1 Corinthians 7:39) A wife is bound during all the time her husband is alive. But if her husband should fall asleep [in death], she is free to be married to whom she wants, only in [the] Lord.

(Romans 7:2-3) For instance, a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is alive; but if her husband dies, she is discharged from the law of her husband. 3 So, then, while her husband is living, she would be styled an adulteress if she became another man’s. But if her husband dies, she is free from his law, so that she is not an adulteress if she becomes another man’s.

(Romans 13:1) Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.

(Hebrews 10:25) not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near.

(1 Corinthians 6:9-10) . . .What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom.

As Christians we have many laws, several of them carried over from the Law given to Moses as well. If you don't believe this, there is little more that I can say.
 

Jim B

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Some laws for Christians Jim:
(1 John 4:21) And this commandment we have from him, that the one who loves God should be loving his brother also.
(1 John 3:22-24) and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we are observing his commandments and are doing the things that are pleasing in his eyes. 23 Indeed, this is his commandment, that we have faith in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and be loving one another, just as he gave us commandment. 24 Moreover, he who observes his commandments remains in union with him, and he in union with such one; and by this we gain the knowledge that he is remaining in union with us, owing to the spirit which he gave us.

(John 13:34-35) I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. 35 By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”

(Matthew 28:18-20) And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

(1 Corinthians 7:39) A wife is bound during all the time her husband is alive. But if her husband should fall asleep [in death], she is free to be married to whom she wants, only in [the] Lord.

(Romans 7:2-3) For instance, a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is alive; but if her husband dies, she is discharged from the law of her husband. 3 So, then, while her husband is living, she would be styled an adulteress if she became another man’s. But if her husband dies, she is free from his law, so that she is not an adulteress if she becomes another man’s.

(Romans 13:1) Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.

(Hebrews 10:25) not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near.

(1 Corinthians 6:9-10) . . .What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom.

As Christians we have many laws, several of them carried over from the Law given to Moses as well. If you don't believe this, there is little more that I can say.

My Bible has a lot more to say than the "salad" of these out-of-context verses.

There is only one verse needed in reply. Romans 7:4, "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God."

I will take you at your word that there is little more that you can say about this subject.
 

Robert Gwin

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My Bible has a lot more to say than the "salad" of these out-of-context verses.

There is only one verse needed in reply. Romans 7:4, "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God."

I will take you at your word that there is little more that you can say about this subject.

Thank you Jim for your input sir. Hope you are correct, but I simply cannot confirm it scripturally.