Job, and the precursor event to the great tribulation.

I guess I can’t connect with this because…I am not as prosperous as I was when I first came to God. In fact, I’m pretty destitute, temporally speaking. I’m part of His body, the church, and I am poor so that every year when I do my taxes, I fall below the poverty level by a good amount.

So, He took away what wealth I had on earth, temporally. I would not have it back for all the world. Living hand to mouth daily is fine with me, although I did not get to that trust except through a lot of struggle. But then He replaced what He took with so much better! I would gladly live under a bridge to keep what He has given me.

David H. said:

I Believe something similar to this is going on in heaven regarding the church. The church is arguably the most prosperous at it has ever been, and as wealthy and blessed as ever, just Like Job was blessed and protected. In Revelation 12:10-11 we see that Satan is cast down from heaven because of the efficacy of the Blood of the Lamb in the lives of the saints which has transformed them such that their testimony is worthy of this when faced with their own death. This precursor event to the Great tribulation (The Wrath of Satan), I Believe is what many Christians are witnessing now in the world.

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The GT is not for the church. The GT is the end of Adam's legacy.

The church is in Christ. Humanity is in Adam.

So Jesus showing the church off like Job, is like trying to put the church back into Job's time period. Not going to work. History cannot be re-lived.

Timtofly said:

History cannot be re-lived.

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Ecclesiastes 3:15
What is happening now has happened before, and what will happen in the future has happened before, because God makes the same things happen over and over again.

stunnedbygrace said:

I guess I can’t connect with this because…I am not as prosperous as I was when I first came to God. In fact, I’m pretty destitute, temporally speaking. I’m part of His body, the church, and I am poor so that every year when I do my taxes, I fall below the poverty level by a good amount.

So, He took away what wealth I had on earth, temporally. I would not have it back for all the world. Living hand to mouth daily is fine with me, although I did not get to that trust except through a lot of struggle. But then He replaced what He took with so much better! I would gladly live under a bridge to keep what He has given me.

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11 Not that I speak in regard to need, for I have learned in whatever state I am, to be content: 12 I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. 13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Philippians 4:11-13

All God's promises in Christ are "yes" and God can provide worldly wealth as you hear in the prosperity gospels being preached from some pulpits (and usually by pastors, who ride in limousines and possess a great deal.) However, it should be understood that great wealth is also great temptation if the prosperous haven't understood sound stewardship principles or recognized that we are blessed in order to be a blessing to others.

“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. Matthew 6:19-21

Jesus was a teacher of the law and familiar with the book of Deuteronomy, so He knew that God's blessings lead to the apostasy of Israel.

20 When I have brought them to the land flowing with milk and honey, of which I swore to their fathers, and they have eaten and filled themselves and grown fat, then they will turn to other gods and serve them; and they will provoke Me and break My covenant. Deuteronomy 31:20

“But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked;
You grew fat, you grew thick,
You are obese!
Then he forsook God who made him,
And scornfully esteemed the Rock of his salvation. Deuteronomy 32:15

Then Jesus taught:
24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon. Matthew 6:24

And in the book of the Revelation:
14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,
‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— Revelation 3:14-17

Money is treacherous when we place our reliance in our wealth. Jesus referred to "Mammon" instead of simply money, because Mammon is wealth personified, like the Canaanite god Baal Hamon.

And finally when Paul wrote to Timothy:
3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.
6 Now godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content. 9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 1 Timothy 6:3-10

It seems like you understand these things, but many go after false teachers who preach to the desires of the flesh and the comfort money can afford.

stunnedbygrace said:

Ecclesiastes 3:15
What is happening now has happened before, and what will happen in the future has happened before, because God makes the same things happen over and over again.

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People repeating mistakes is not doing history over again. History cannot be lived again, and the mistakes corrected. If the same type of mistakes are being made over and over again, that is just humanity being insanely human.

"That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past."

David H. said:

He is placing the saints in that role as that is their calling, the faithful are spared in the wilderness during the great tribulation.

As For History repeating it is not History repeating but the episode with Job is an archetype of what is happening in heaven as seen in Revelation 12:7-12.

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Job was not spared in the wilderness. Job experienced all his tribulation 100%.

Those identified as saints after the 6th Seal are not the church that was just glorified in the 5th and 6th Seal.

The church is in Paradise. The 144k are on earth.

Timtofly said:

Job was not spared in the wilderness. Job experienced all his tribulation 100%.

Those identified as saints after the 6th Seal are not the church that was just glorified in the 5th and 6th Seal.

The church is in Paradise. The 144k are on earth.

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Those in the 5th Seal are not the Raptured Church, those in the 5th Seal are Martyred Saints that were Martyred during the 70th week, thus thy can not be seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:9-17 because those under the altar at the 5th seal were told specifically that they must wait until all of their brothers on earth are killed in like manner as they were before they can get the vengeance that they so desire. This means that no one who dies during the 70th week can make it to heaven until after the Beasts 1260 day rule is finished. We see that this is also affirmed by Rev. 20:4 where we see that those who were Martyred are only Judged AFTER the Second Coming.

So, those seen in Seal #5 do not get glorified, they are 70th week Saints. LOOK at Jesus words, these will not get vengeance until all of their brothers have been killed in like manner as them.

Let me explain it all in simple terms.{at least its simple to me...}

Seal #1 is the COMING Anti-Christ, the Seals are PROPHETIC UTTERNCES by Jesus, not actual judgments. Thus Jesus is saying over the coming 42 month reign of the Anti-Christ he will go forth CONQUERING.

Seal #2 says He brings War over a 42 month period of time.

Seal #3 says his Wars bring Famine for 42 months.

Seal #4 says this Anti-Christ will bring Death/Disease and the Grave(hades) over 42 months.

Seal #5 says this man will Martyr the Saints (those who come unto Christ Jesus AFTER the Pre Trib Rapture of the Church) and they will only get vengeance once his 42 month rule is over.

Seal #6 is Jesus prophesying that God's Wrath will come very soon, and we know it also lasts for 42 months. Thus the Wrath will come with the Rev. 8 Trumpet Judgments, that is why the 7th Seal is opened over in Rev. 8, and then the Trumpets are readied by the Angels.

LOOK VERY CLOSLY AT THIS 7 SEALED SCROLL



Most people do not understand the Seals at all, they think Jesus opens a Seal and that seal then comes to pass at that time, this is an error of their own thinking, look at the picture above, can you read the scroll without taking all 7 Seals off? No, of curse not, a king sent a letter out with three Signet Seals on it, if 1 seal was off the message was safe, even of 2 were somehow to come off the message was never read by anyone else and these kings did this because they had war plans in these messages at times etc. etc. The Signet Seals were also unique in design where you couldn't just read a letter and duplicate the signet that sealed the letter.

So, God using 7 (complete) means he has COMPETELY SEALED Judgement on mankind until all Seven Seals are loosed, the Scroll is the Judgments to come, when all 7 are off then and ONLY THEN will judgments be announced (Rev.8). So, with each seal being taken off or loosed Jesus is in Heaven, amidst the Church taking off one seal and then prophesying what (he is doing this maybe a month before these judgments fall, or maybe a week, or maybe one day before these judgments fall, who knows exactly) is about to befall mankind when the 7 sealed scroll is finally opened up, and the Judgments are readied. NOTICE: The Trumpet Judgments and the Vial Judgments are readied, then judgments fall (7 Trumps and 7 Vials) but no one can find where the "7 Seal Judgments" are readied because they are not Judgments, but prophetic utterances by Jesus. The Anti-Christ is not allowed to go forth until the God's Wrath falls, that is why God's Wrath and his 42 month rule parallel exactly.

Understanding this is how I came to understand the 144,000 are the Fleeing Jews. They are not 144,000 male virgins just like the Church/Bride is not 10 female virgins. 10 = completion or ALL Christendom, and 144,000 = 12 (fulness) x 12 x 10 (completion) x 10 x 10 which is 144,000 or ALL Israel who repent. They are fleeing (Rev. 7) just before the Judgment falls in Rev. 8, and what happens just before the 1260 middle of the week? The 1290 False Prophet (a Jewish High Priest gone rogue) places an IMAGE (AoD) of the Beast (an E.U. President) in the Temple and FORBIDS Jesus Worship in the Temple by the Jews who repented. You can't DEFILE the temple by taking away an already defiled meat sacrifice, the temple has to be cleaned first, and that happens when Jesus is accepted as the Jews Messiah just before the Day of the Lord as both Malachi 4:5 and Zechariah 13:8-9 says happens.

All 7 Seals are like a closet with 7 locks on it, you can't open the door until all 7 locks are off.

Ronald D Milam said:

Those in the 5th Seal are not the Raptured Church, those in the 5th Seal are Martyred Saints that were Martyred during the 70th week, thus thy can not be seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:9-17 because those under the altar at the 5th seal were told specifically that they must wait until all of their brothers on earth are killed in like manner as they were before they can get the vengeance that they so desire. This means that no one who dies during the 70th week can make it to heaven until after the Beasts 1260 day rule is finished. We see that this is also affirmed by Rev. 20:4 where we see that those who were Martyred are only Judged AFTER the Second Coming.

So, those seen in Seal #5 do not get glorified, they are 70th week Saints. LOOK at Jesus words, these will not get vengeance until all of their brothers have been killed in like manner as them.

Let me explain it all in simple terms.{at least its simple to me...}

Seal #1 is the COMING Anti-Christ, the Seals are PROPHETIC UTTERNCES by Jesus, not actual judgments. Thus Jesus is saying over the coming 42 month reign of the Anti-Christ he will go forth CONQUERING.

Seal #2 says He brings War over a 42 month period of time.

Seal #3 says his Wars bring Famine for 42 months.

Seal #4 says this Anti-Christ will bring Death/Disease and the Grave(hades) over 42 months.

Seal #5 says this man will Martyr the Saints (those who come unto Christ Jesus AFTER the Pre Trib Rapture of the Church) and they will only get vengeance once his 42 month rule is over.

Seal #6 is Jesus prophesying that God's Wrath will come very soon, and we know it also lasts for 42 months. Thus the Wrath will come with the Rev. 8 Trumpet Judgments, that is why the 7th Seal is opened over in Rev. 8, and then the Trumpets are readied by the Angels.

LOOK VERY CLOSLY AT THIS 7 SEALED SCROLL

View attachment 20498

Most people do not understand the Seals at all, they think Jesus opens a Seal and that seal then comes to pass at that time, this is an error of their own thinking, look at the picture above, can you read the scroll without taking all 7 Seals off? No, of curse not, a king sent a letter out with three Signet Seals on it, if 1 seal was off the message was safe, even of 2 were somehow to come off the message was never read by anyone else and these kings did this because they had war plans in these messages at times etc. etc. The Signet Seals were also unique in design where you couldn't just read a letter and duplicate the signet that sealed the letter.

So, God using 7 (complete) means he has COMPETELY SEALED Judgement on mankind until all Seven Seals are loosed, the Scroll is the Judgments to come, when all 7 are off then and ONLY THEN will judgments be announced (Rev.8). So, with each seal being taken off or loosed Jesus is in Heaven, amidst the Church taking off one seal and then prophesying what (he is doing this maybe a month before these judgments fall, or maybe a week, or maybe one day before these judgments fall, who knows exactly) is about to befall mankind when the 7 sealed scroll is finally opened up, and the Judgments are readied. NOTICE: The Trumpet Judgments and the Vial Judgments are readied, then judgments fall (7 Trumps and 7 Vials) but no one can find where the "7 Seal Judgments" are readied because they are not Judgments, but prophetic utterances by Jesus. The Anti-Christ is not allowed to go forth until the God's Wrath falls, that is why God's Wrath and his 42 month rule parallel exactly.

Understanding this is how I came to understand the 144,000 are the Fleeing Jews. They are not 144,000 male virgins just like the Church/Bride is not 10 female virgins. 10 = completion or ALL Christendom, and 144,000 = 12 (fulness) x 12 x 10 (completion) x 10 x 10 which is 144,000 or ALL Israel who repent. They are fleeing (Rev. 7) just before the Judgment falls in Rev. 8, and what happens just before the 1260 middle of the week? The 1290 False Prophet (a Jewish High Priest gone rogue) places an IMAGE (AoD) of the Beast (an E.U. President) in the Temple and FORBIDS Jesus Worship in the Temple by the Jews who repented. You can't DEFILE the temple by taking away an already defiled meat sacrifice, the temple has to be cleaned first, and that happens when Jesus is accepted as the Jews Messiah just before the Day of the Lord as both Malachi 4:5 and Zechariah 13:8-9 says happens.

All 7 Seals are like a closet with 7 locks on it, you can't open the door until all 7 locks are off.

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No such thing as a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven found in scripture, as claimed

David H. said:

But you can unlock five of the locks and then wait to unlock the other two correct.

If you do a study of the word seal you will see it is rooted in the word "Hedge" as used in the passage from Job, thus a seal is a hedge of protection, to break a seal is to break that hedge of protection.

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No, you can't open the door util all 7 locks are off.

Look at seal #6 Now go look at what happens when Trumps numbers 1, 2, 3 and 4 come to pass. We have Fire tat burns the trees, grasses etc. (Houses/businesses) in 1/3 of the world creating huge smoke in the jet stream all around the earth. We have the asteroid impact in Trump #2. We have the Fallout that is poisonous (WORMWOOD) in Trump #3 which is just describing the same IMAPACT as Trump #2 but is telling us about the poisonous fallout of whatever it may be from this asteroid, it might just be tons of sulfur, but it poisons 1/3 of the fresh waters. This is why its shown coming in HOT, it portends a huge explosion is coming also, not just a "mountain" but a Space Mountain/Rock/Asteroid.

Now we get to the all important Trump #4, NOTICE: This Trump brings to pass not only Jesus' 6th Seal Prophecy but also the Joel 2:30-31 prophecy. Allow me to bring this together in scriptures.

Joel 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before(in the presence of) the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Rev. 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake;(Asteroid Impact) and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair(Smoke fills the skies), and the moon became as blood(The hue from the fires); 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Now, lets see both of these Prophetic Events come to pass in the Rev. 8 Trumps. We know that Trump #1 brings FIRE and BLOOD. Trump #2 Is the Sea Impact, Trump #3 is the Wormwood fallout. Now we get to see Trump #4 bring to pass Joel 2:3-31 and the 6th Seal Prophecy.

Rev. 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

This is Seal #6's Prophetic uttering coming to pass. The smoke from all, of the firs darken the earths light. God's WRATH starts with the asteroid Impact. Not with the Seals which do nothing.
People can study and twist anything like they want it be, but this has a real meaning, we have to be able to overcome bad information just because we once believed something doesn't mean we should not allow God to teach us His truths in these end times.

Here is what's funny to me, Gid stated that in the end ties He was going to reveal all things and pour out His spirit unto us. Instead of ACCETING this teaching that is of God NOW we are in many cases still standing on things MEN PASSED DOWN long ago. That makes no sense the Spirit is teaching us now, if we will just receive it.

No offense brother, I believed there was 21 Judgments for over 30 years. One night while in prayer, asking Gid why the Church has so many different interpretations of things in these end tines when Gd promised om reveal all in tee end times the holy spirt told me this:

"Ron, you guys already know it all"

QUESTION: If you were raised up to think 2 + 2 = 5 for 10 years in a school. If a teacher came in telling you 2 + 2 was 4 what would you do? Smile and think, YEA, OK, we know its really 5.

God is like unto that sub teacher. He now has to overcome the 2 +2 = 5 bad info, if you were never taught math in that situation the sub teacher would be a lot better off. God is saying let Me tech you, forget what you learned from other men.

David H. said:

But you can unlock five of the locks and wait to open two of them later.

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You are clearly not getting it and here is why, this understanding is so important (and I know what it is, and have debunked this multiple times) that nothing else can be seen clearly, we call it tunnel vision but we never see our own tunnel vision as such. All 7 Seals have to be loosed before any of the scroll of Judgments can be read from.

Now, before I read any further, let me guess your beliefs on this from just the little bit I glanced at in two or three sentences. You think the Seals were all opened long ago except for the 5th Seal which you think are the Martyrs of the Church. I have proven this thinking can't be true unto others with the same thought, but they will not listen, their ideas are too important, God thinks His truths are all that matters however. Now let me go look further to see of I am on the right trail. I have been doing this 37 years, I can tell people they are into "Armstrongism" and his believers and some don't even know who Herbert W. Armstrong is.

P.S. "THE NOWHERE MAN" remember that phrase I will use it later.

David H. said:

Christ arrived in heaven as the worthy lamb that prevailed and he opened the seals in heaven, but he inserted a mystery between the 5th and sixth seal known as the church age.... when he unlocks the last two The church age will end Which occurs with the rapture of the church, which occurs when repentance is no longer found among men... that is when the church age end and the wrath of God begins.

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See what I am saying, you have fallen for this okey doke hocus pocus stuff. I saw this 30 years ago. So, since Jesus was not seen in Heaven he wasn't there in Heaven and John then wept. No, that is not what it means, this is why we have to use the whole bible to stop flawed thinking like this from leading us down rabbit holes (Satan loves confusion).

Rev. 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

So, what we get is this debunked theory, that Jesus was on the earth thus John didn't see him in Heaven because he had not yet been sacrificed.

So, what you have to believe in that case is Jesus is a NOWHERE MAN because the very same verse says no man ON EARTH..........NOR UNDER THE EARTH is Worthy open the Seals. So all one has to do is think just a wee little but and they can understand Satan is whispering lies unto people on this. Just like he did with Adam, "thou shalt not surly die". The Church can be seen in Rev. 4:4 anyway, the CROWNS of Gold, the Robes and them sitting at God's THRONE are all three promises made to the OVERCOMING Church HERE.........Revelation 2:10, Revelation 3:5 and Revelation 3:21 have a look see.

So, was Jesus also NOT on the Earth nor IN THE EARTH? Of course this blows up that whole train of thought, the only thing John was being told was that NO MAN was Worthy to open the Seals but the Slain Lamb of God was Worthy. It has nothing to do with where Jesus was at, because according to those that say he WAS NOT in Heaven, well, then according to the very same verse he also then WAS NOT on the Earth NOR under the Earth, so He would have to be a NOWHERE MAN. See how preposterous that theory is? Our biggest faults as men is PRIDE, even when proven wrong men cling to things they know better but can't change their ideas. Men of God are supposed to lose their pride in Christ Jesus, its OK to be wrong, that just means we learned Gods truths.

David H. said:

But Ronald, this post is not about the seals or the rapture, but about the precursor event to the great tribulation, which is Satan being cast down to earth by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony (Revelation 12:11). this should not lead to a pre trib or pre wrath raprue argument, but rather about the saints embracing their "worthy calling", But the the real problem is most do not know the difference between the faithful and the saints because they have been taught the errant teaching that all believers are saints. Until you and the majority of protestants correct this misunderstanding this post will not mean much to them, But those who are called to the high calling of God in Christ know this fact. Many are called, few are chosen.

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All teachings of God are relevant.

Until one understands the Seals are not Judgments they can't really understand the Book of Revelation. That goes far beyond the Pre Trib Rapture which is correct. I frankly am very weary of any persons understanding on anything via eschatology that cant get the pre trib Rapture right.

Ronald D Milam said:

Most people do not understand the Seals at all, they think Jesus opens a Seal and that seal then comes to pass at that time, this is an error of their own thinking

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This is true and very rare to see posted. Here's mine:

There are things the seals speak of that happen later in the trumps, which prove the seals are not action, but a foretelling, a glimpse of what is to come. Battle plans in those days were written on scrolls often sealed with a seal or more....so a "General" would have to break each seal so he could read the scroll and know the battle plan, and then once that was done a signal like a trumpet sound would call the troops to action. Its a seven stage war. Once all seven are read and reviewed then the 7 stages (trumps) can be executed/started.


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The seals are glimpses of the trumps. The seals are not action but knowledge. The trumps are action in fact trumpets were always used to signal an action to happen, especially in war. The seals are on a book and I believe that book to symbolize the plan of God in the end times so all seven seals must be broken before the trumps call to action begin.


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The seals only give information about future events. Nothing happens when a seal is opened other than John being shown that future info. It's the trumpets that sound the call for action and real time events to happen. That's why Jesus can be described coming in the 6th seal and the 7th trump but doesn't come two separate times. One is only info about the event and one is the event happening.