Job, and the precursor event to the great tribulation.

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stunnedbygrace

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As i have said, those first five seals will be accelerated during the great tribulation (the wrath of Satan) and will be worldwide.

I just had a thought on this. Wars existed though before He opened the seal. So what changed?
 

David H.

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I just had a thought on this. Wars existed though before He opened the seal. So what changed?
Wars on the church were carried out by Saul and the Jewish priesthood right from the get go of the church age. All these seals are the birth pangs like birthpangs they started slow and they only get worse, till the antichrist Kingdom has the church as the enemy and wars against the saints and prevails against them.... If anything church history has been an example of this, with the exception of the modern times where the seduction of the church is at its height.
 

Truth7t7

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What you are describing is the patient endurance of the saints. I think it is different for men and women in that men are more rational therefore they need their passions awakened, Women in general are more passionate need to have them them tamed... or at least so my experience has shown me?



A fiery trial is there for us to give our testimony (the word in the Greek is martyria from which we get the word martyr from) What it is is a testimony of the efficacy of the blood of the lamb to help us overcome persecution and seduction from the Adversary. for example, those who do not take the mark of the beast will be a testimony of this and some will be killed while others will live without the ability to buy or sell and have a normal life. Both are giving their testimony (Martyria) though some are not called to make the saintly sacrifice. For example the Apostle John was not martyred, yet he is considered a saint, so martyrdom is not the soul basis for who is a saint.

If you read the passage in Luke 21:12-19 you will see this "testimony" being explained as pertaining to the Apostles and by extension the saints of the church.
Romans 8:26-27KJV
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

1 Corinthians 1:2KJV
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
 
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stunnedbygrace

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What you are describing is the patient endurance of the saints. I think it is different for men and women in that men are more rational therefore they need their passions awakened, Women in general are more passionate need to have them them tamed... or at least so my experience has shown me?

By passions I mean…being stirred to anger at how I’m treated rather than remaining in peace (maybe along the lines of David here: if that man is throwing rocks at me, maybe God has told Him to. God hasn’t told me what He’s doing so don’t beat him up). or…having joy at something that’s agreeable to me but having no joy if somethings not agreeable to me. After all, how do I know if the thing that’s agreeable to me isn’t what I should be rejoicing over and the thing that I don’t find agreeable or pleasant is the thing that’s best for me?
I don’t mean a male or female thing.
 
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David H.

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By passions I mean…being stirred to anger at how I’m treated rather than remaining in peace (maybe along the lines of David here: if that man is throwing rocks at me, maybe God has told Him to. God hasn’t told me what He’s doing so don’t beat him up). or…having joy at something that’s agreeable to me but having no joy if somethings not agreeable to me. After all, how do I know if the thing that’s agreeable to me isn’t what I should be rejoicing over and the thing that I don’t find agreeable or pleasant is the thing that’s best for me?

This is a great example, (rocks being thrown at you).... What you are describing is the learning of meekness, a concept not understood by many, for us men we are trained to fight back, it is far harder for us to learn meekness, and took me years and many rocks thrown to learn this whereas for women this comes much quicker because they are more in tuned with the passions and sympathize with the rock throwers. Christ Jesus laid down his life for us in meekness, he did not defend himself though he could have, as the old song puts it, sent ten thousand angels. Thus meekness is much harder for men to learn than women in general. None of us can give our testimony without learning meekness.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Wars on the church were carried out by Saul and the Jewish priesthood right from the get go of the church age. All these seals are the birth pangs like birthpangs they started slow and they only get worse, till the antichrist Kingdom has the church as the enemy and wars against the saints and prevails against them.... If anything church history has been an example of this, with the exception of the modern times where the seduction of the church is at its height.

Okay, at least I can grasp your understanding maybe a little bit. You’re saying the seal being broken only affected the church but later that seal will affect the rest of the world at once? Or…you see the war as persecution of the church rather than wars and rumors of wars on the whole earth?
 

stunnedbygrace

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This is a great example, (rocks being thrown at you).... What you are describing is the learning of meekness, a concept not understood by many, for us men we are trained to fight back, it is far harder for us to learn meekness, and took me years and many rocks thrown to learn this whereas for women this comes much quicker because they are more in tuned with the passions and sympathize with the rock throwers. Christ Jesus laid down his life for us in meekness, he did not defend himself though he could have, as the old song puts it, sent ten thousand angels. Thus meekness is much harder for men to learn than women in general. None of us can give our testimony without learning meekness.
Hmm…I hadn’t considered it as meekness. I guess I saw it more as trusting God so much that anything you find yourself in, you remain calm and know He’s in control…your passions are not stirred to anger or to not accepting what you find yourself in as either from God or that He will work it to good…
I guess you could call it meekness toward God.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Anyway, if you could remain/abide in that level of trust (or meekness), I don’t know what could hold you back then from anything and everything God has and wants for you.
 

stunnedbygrace

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And I wouldn’t say that as a woman I sympathize with a rock thrower…I just trust God that He guides my steps and brings me to my situations and circumstances for His good reasons. Like…letting a man be sold into slavery. He turned it to the good of the mans own soul and growth AND to save many people in a famine. It’s always a win win with God.
 
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David H.

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Okay, at least I can grasp your understanding maybe a little bit. You’re saying the seal being broken only affected the church but later that seal will affect the rest of the world at once? Or…you see the war as persecution of the church rather than wars and rumors of wars on the whole earth?

I see it as outright war on the church... yes persecution is involved, but outright wars on the church have been increasing throughout history, although we are in a bit of lull right now with Isis in check and the communist largely in a passive state. Remember these are birth pangs. which increase in strength and frequency.

Hmm…I hadn’t considered it as meekness. I guess I saw it more as trusting God so much that anything you find yourself in, you remain calm and know He’s in control…your passions are not stirred to anger or to not accepting what you find yourself in as either from God or that He will work it to good…
I guess you could call it meekness toward God.

The following is from Strong's concordance on the word Meek... I think I have shared this before on this site?

"Meekness toward God is that disposition of spirit in which we accept His dealings with us as good, and therefore without disputing or resisting. In the OT, the meek are those wholly relying on God rather than their own strength to defend against injustice. Thus, meekness toward evil people means knowing God is permitting the injuries they inflict, that He is using them to purify His elect, and that He will deliver His elect in His time (Isa 41:17, Luk 18:1-8). Gentleness or meekness is the opposite to self-assertiveness and self-interest. It stems from trust in God's goodness and control over the situation. The gentle person is not occupied with self at all. This is a work of the Holy Spirit, not of the human will (Gal 5:23)."

Sounds an awful lot like what you are describing.

God bless
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Wow. I guess I didn’t know meekness really means radical trust, but yeah, that’s real close to how I was describing trust. So then, you were saying earlier that…radical trust is easier for women than for men?
I guess I can see that, we train men up to defend.
 

Randy Kluth

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And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. (Job 1:8-11)

For those with ears to hear....

I Believe something similar to this is going on in heaven regarding the church. The church is arguably the most prosperous at it has ever been, and as wealthy and blessed as ever, just Like Job was blessed and protected. In Revelation 12:10-11 we see that Satan is cast down from heaven because of the efficacy of the Blood of the Lamb in the lives of the saints which has transformed them such that their testimony is worthy of this when faced with their own death. This precursor event to the Great tribulation (The Wrath of Satan), I Believe is what many Christians are witnessing now in the world.

Has the fiery trial fallen upon you? If so be strong until the end even if that means your death, for by our overcoming we force the devil's hand. The following is for you if you are facing this trial.

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
(2 Thessalonians 1:7-12)

Interesting take on Job, applying it to the endtimes, prosperous Church. Thanks! May be some truth in it?
 

stunnedbygrace

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I see it as outright war on the church... yes persecution is involved, but outright wars on the church have been increasing throughout history, although we are in a bit of lull right now with Isis in check and the communist largely in a passive state. Remember these are birth pangs. which increase in strength and frequency.



The following is from Strong's concordance on the word Meek... I think I have shared this before on this site?

"Meekness toward God is that disposition of spirit in which we accept His dealings with us as good, and therefore without disputing or resisting. In the OT, the meek are those wholly relying on God rather than their own strength to defend against injustice. Thus, meekness toward evil people means knowing God is permitting the injuries they inflict, that He is using them to purify His elect, and that He will deliver His elect in His time (Isa 41:17, Luk 18:1-8). Gentleness or meekness is the opposite to self-assertiveness and self-interest. It stems from trust in God's goodness and control over the situation. The gentle person is not occupied with self at all. This is a work of the Holy Spirit, not of the human will (Gal 5:23)."

Sounds an awful lot like what you are describing.

God bless

My strongs concordance doesn’t have paragraphs like that in it. Yours does??
 

stunnedbygrace

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Thanks guys. I just always do Bible gateway but I’ve never looked at their other “tools.” Guess I should.
I’m old so I was thinking he meant a physical concordance like the one I use! Lol.
Was thinking they came out with a newfangled one and was thinking, but I can barely lift it already…!
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Interesting take on Job, applying it to the endtimes, prosperous Church. Thanks! May be some truth in it?

Yes, it is interesting.
I’ve seen Job in my own struggles to remain in trust more firmly. It really is a struggle for a while. And I’ve seen that what God takes from me is to actually increase me and ready me.
But I never once considered Job as reflective of endtimes. I can see some of it now.
 

Randy Kluth

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Yes, it is interesting.
I’ve seen Job in my own struggles to remain in trust more firmly. It really is a struggle for a while. And I’ve seen that what God takes from me is to actually increase me and ready me.
But I never once considered Job as reflective of endtimes. I can see some of it now.

I don't think God squeezes us until He sees how much we will take before we break. Everybody breaks down under torture, and God is not evil, nor does He wish evil on anybody.

But the story of life is all about Satan accusing us of wanting our own way, as he does. Of course, there is nothing wrong with wanting something for yourself. But the acid question is: do you want your own way even if it contradicts God's way?

And so, when we follow the Lord in life, it often conflicts with the ways of the world. And this leads to our suffering. It is our glory to continue to follow the Lord, even when the world opposes us and persecutes us.
 
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Timtofly

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No, its a PROVEN FACT, the Church can be SEEN in Rev. 4:4 BEFORE Jess opens the Seals IN HEAVEN. This was my point, you dodge facts 2 + 2 x 10 is 40 not 47 that's a fact, just like Revelation 4:4 is a fact. God will ask us why we dodged facts to chose our on understandings.

A NOWHWRE MAN does not exist.
The church has been seen in Paradise, that heavenly city since the Cross. People have arrived daily for almost 1,992 years.

Did you mean all the church or all the church that was there?

The symbolism of the 5th Seal is the whole church covered by the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 5:6 and Revelation 6:9

"stood a Lamb as it had been slain"

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God."

Christ was not a martyr. John did not call them martyrs. Don't ask why, but John uses a lot of symbolism. Why not just state clearer facts? I am not asking why either. Just making a point. This is the whole church portrayed along with Christ under the alter as slain just like Christ. Paul just said it plainly that we are in Christ. John put a lot more graphic detail into the point.

After the Second Coming there are more souls still part of the Lamb's book of life, who have to die to Adam's flesh and blood. Those beheaded are not really martyrs either. They are slain to remain in the Lamb's book of life. In Matthew 25 Jesus Himself compared those judged after the Second Coming as sheep and goats. Both forms of sacrifice. Both representatives of Israel. Because when Jesus steps on the Mt. of Olives it will be all about Israel, because the church was already glorified, and forever with the Lord, after meeting in the air as Jesus was heading for the Mt. of Olives.

Jesus and the angels carry out the final harvest, and that is during the Trumpets and Thunders, and it is all about being slain. That is why it is the GT. It is the end of Adam's rotten sinful flesh. Of course every human will die. All will be:

"until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled"

Removed from Adam's flesh and blood. Christ was the second Adam that removes sin. Adam brought sin into the world. Christ is going to take sin out of the world once and for all.