A Terrific TRINITY Passage of Scripture

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Duckybill

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It is you who believe in hell, so which body part do you chop off to avoid it? Do you poke your eyes out so that you don't see the pretty girls on the street and the tv?
Actually it is Jesus who believes in Hell.

Matthew 5:29-30 (ESV)
[sup]29 [/sup]If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. [sup]30 [/sup]And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

Go ahead now, start re-writing.
 

belantos

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There is no historical evidence for a Great Apostasy in Church history.

There might not be evidence in the official trinitarian church history, but if you read other sources you should find evidence. As a proof I quoted to Justin Martyr on this forum.

Also, what about the case of Jaroslav Pelikan? An expert in Church history, but is not religious, until he joins the Orthodox Church at the age of 90. After a lifetime of studying and writing about all stages of Christian history, he decides to join a Church that you claim is based on a different belief system than the Early Church? It just doesn't add up.....

One out of the many is not sufficient proof.
 

Duckybill

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No need to list them, I know them all. I used to be a trinitarian, got a theology degree, served in full time ministry receiving only voluntary financial gifts... until one day I decided to test - not disprove, nor prove, but test - the foundations. And the foundations fell apart. I had to throw it all away and reworked everything.
How long were you a "trinitarian"?

 

belantos

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Also, what about the case of Jaroslav Pelikan? An expert in Church history, but is not religious, until he joins the Orthodox Church at the age of 90. After a lifetime of studying and writing about all stages of Christian history, he decides to join a Church that you claim is based on a different belief system than the Early Church? It just doesn't add up.....


"Pelikan was born in Akron, Ohio, to a Slovak father and mother, Jaroslav Jan Pelikan Sr. and Anna Buzekova Pelikan. His father was pastor of Trinity Slovak Lutheran Church in Chicago, Illinois, and his paternal grandfather a bishop of the Synod of Evangelical Lutheran Churches then known as the Slovak Lutheran Church in America.
According to family members, Pelikan's mother taught him to use a typewriter when he was three years old, as he could not yet hold a pen properly but wanted to write. A polyglot, Pelikan's facility with languages may be traced to his multilingual childhood and early training. That linguistic facility was to serve him in the career he ultimately chose (after contemplating becoming a concert pianist)--as a historian of Christian doctrine. He did not confine his studies to Roman Catholic and Protestant theological history, but also embraced that of the Christian East."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaroslav_Pelikan

He was a trinitarian. Are you surprised he has found no evidence of the apostasy?
 

Duckybill

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Do you ever sin? I bet you do. Which body part do you chop off?
Sure I have sinned since being saved. But I truly repented. It is MUCH different to commit a sin and to live in sin. Jesus wasn't saying to chop our bodies up literally, because that wouldn't keep us from sinning. He was explaining the awfulness of Hell.

 

belantos

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How long were you a "trinitarian"?


About 12 years. It was spent with extensive bible studies, from church evening classes to bible college evening school and finally accredited bible college course. Then ministry. I loved it and was very devoted.
 

Duckybill

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About 12 years. It was spent with extensive bible studies, from church evening classes to bible college evening school and finally accredited bible college course. Then ministry. I loved it and was very devoted.
And now you are saying you were deceived for 12 years?

 

John Zain

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No need to list them, I know them all. I used to be a trinitarian, got a theology degree, served in full time ministry receiving only voluntary financial gifts ... until one day I decided to test - not disprove, nor prove, but test -
the foundations. And the foundations fell apart. I had to throw it all away and reworked everything.
Let's see, shall I be trained by a university or by the Holy Spirit? Tough choice.
Please explain your testing of the foundations ... I am extremely interested.
(Side point: any of them include "the doctrine of baptisms" plural (Hebrews 6)?
I also served ... 15 years as an evangelist overseas.
(NT foundational) prayng for God to perform miracles seemed to work quite well.

 

belantos

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Let's see, shall I be trained by a university or by the Holy Spirit? Tough choice.
Please explain your testing of the foundations ... I am extremely interested.
(Side point: any of them include "the doctrine of baptisms" plural (Hebrews 6)?
I also served ... 15 years as an evangelist overseas.
(NT foundational) prayng for God to perform miracles seemed to work quite well.


The pouring out of the Spirit was only meant for a specific time period in history. Nobody today has the Spirit.


Acts 2:
16... this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel: 17 ‘In the last days it will be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams. 18 Even upon my slaves, both men and women, in those days I will pour out my Spirit; and they shall prophesy. 19 And I will show portents in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and smoky mist. 20 The sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the coming of the Lord’s great and glorious day. 21Then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.’

The Kingdom was announced by Jesus and was expected to come in the lifetime of his disciples. The wrath of God fell on the Jewish people in 70AD and therefore the Spirit was no longer given. The Preterists have a very good argument that the Kingdom came at that time in a spiritual sense.


And now you are saying you were deceived for 12 years?


I was taught the the errors inherited from the Greeks and built upon by the reformers. I trusted my spiritual forefathers rather than doing my own independent studies. Thus, I fulfilled Jeremiah's prophecy:


Jeremiah 16:19
O LORD, my strength and my stronghold,
And my refuge in the day of distress,
To You the nations will come
From the ends of the earth and say,
“Our fathers have inherited nothing but falsehood,
Futility and things of no profit.”
 

Duckybill

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I was taught the the errors inherited from the Greeks and built upon by the reformers. I trusted my spiritual forefathers rather than doing my own independent studies. Thus, I fulfilled Jeremiah's prophecy:

Jeremiah 16:19
O LORD, my strength and my stronghold,
And my refuge in the day of distress,
To You the nations will come
From the ends of the earth and say,
“Our fathers have inherited nothing but falsehood,
Futility and things of no profit.”
And now you have "fulfilled" this prophecy:

1 Timothy 4:1 (ESV)
[sup]1 [/sup]Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,


 

aspen

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"Pelikan was born in Akron, Ohio, to a Slovak father and mother, Jaroslav Jan Pelikan Sr. and Anna Buzekova Pelikan. His father was pastor of Trinity Slovak Lutheran Church in Chicago, Illinois, and his paternal grandfather a bishop of the Synod of Evangelical Lutheran Churches then known as the Slovak Lutheran Church in America.
According to family members, Pelikan's mother taught him to use a typewriter when he was three years old, as he could not yet hold a pen properly but wanted to write. A polyglot, Pelikan's facility with languages may be traced to his multilingual childhood and early training. That linguistic facility was to serve him in the career he ultimately chose (after contemplating becoming a concert pianist)--as a historian of Christian doctrine. He did not confine his studies to Roman Catholic and Protestant theological history, but also embraced that of the Christian East."

http://en.wikipedia....aroslav_Pelikan

He was a trinitarian. Are you surprised he has found no evidence of the apostasy?

You were a Trinitatian believer, as well; yet, you didn't spend your entire life devoted to the study of Church history, so what happened? Perhaps you were typing at age 2?
 

John Zain

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The pouring out of the Spirit was only meant for a specific time period in history.
Nobody today has the Spirit.
And of course you have a Scripture to prove that this "specific time period in history" is long gone?

You do realize that everyone reading this who has been born again knows you are wrong?
(Most especially those who have been baptised with the Holy Spirit.)

How would you explain the following phenomenon that has been experienced by MANY people?
When they are "born again" their ideas, attitudes, opinions, etc. drastically change?
This lines up (in our favor) with that wonderful passage ... John 14:16-26.
 

belantos

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Nov 12, 2010
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And now you have "fulfilled" this prophecy:

1 Timothy 4:1 (ESV)
[sup]1 [/sup]Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

You missed the term "later times". It is not a reference to thousands of years.

And that is exactly what happened in the second century when Greek Christianity began to embrace Pagan ideas - deceitful spirits and teachings of demons.

You were a Trinitatian believer, as well; yet, you didn't spend your entire life devoted to the study of Church history, so what happened? Perhaps you were typing at age 2?

There are trinitarians who spend a life to study a field in Christianity and they do well. But they never test the fundamental doctrines. They might spend many years of their lives to prove them, but not test them.

Proving means the outcome is predetermined.

Testing means the outcome is unknown, like in a court case.

In most of my trinitarian life I was busy to do the former.

...until... once I did the latter.

And of course you have a Scripture to prove that this "specific time period in history" is long gone?

You do realize that everyone reading this who has been born again knows you are wrong?
(Most especially those who have been baptised with the Holy Spirit.)

How would you explain the following phenomenon that has been experienced by MANY people?
When they are "born again" their ideas, attitudes, opinions, etc. drastically change?
This lines up (in our favor) with that wonderful passage ... John 14:16-26.

The last time I read the gospels the Kingdom was preached: "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is near!"

It was near in those days. You cannot preach that message for 2000 years. Once Jerusalem was destroyed that time slot was gone.

Religious experience is very powerful, but it is not the Spirit. The Spirit meant miraculous power and it was given as a sign to the Jewish people that the end was coming.
 

Duckybill

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You missed the term "later times". It is not a reference to thousands of years.

And that is exactly what happened in the second century when Greek Christianity began to embrace Pagan ideas - deceitful spirits and teachings of demons.
Since you already admitted that you were terribly deceived for 12 years, how do you know you're not deceived now? You don't.

 

belantos

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Nov 12, 2010
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Since you already admitted that you were terribly deceived for 12 years, how do you know you're not deceived now? You don't.




Because I don't cling to any fix doctrine that was invented by a trinitarian in the past. My faith is dynamic and pliable, I am always ready to incorporate new knowledge. I don't need to prove that my beliefs are right, only test them. So if I find something incorrect, I am free to modify it if the evidence is convincing.

On the other hand you must stick to Nicaea, else...

Also, I work from the Tanakh first and interpret the NT in its light. So I arrive at different definitions than those who use the definitions of Nicaea and the latter councils and read them back into the NT, and then read the NT back into the Tanakh. You cannot possible get it right.


Since you already admitted that you were terribly deceived for 12 years, how do you know you're not deceived now? You don't.


I may add that I can read the works of sceptics and not be shaken by them. I am free to consider their writings and have the knowledge to answer them. They also do not understand the bible and they ignore Hebraic thought just like trinitarians. I checked a number of their claims, so called contradictions, and found them wrong. There are times when they are right, but that is often due to transmission errors, rather than real contradictions.

Of course, I haven't gone through all their claims, so I cannot tell if I would be able to answer them all, but I am not shaken by their claims. Many Christians are. I don't need to defend anything. I need to test things and find the true meaning.
 

belantos

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You're the one who's trying to re-write our English Bibles to fit YOUR doctrines. Not me.


No need to rewrite translations, only pick the scholarly ones. One of them is the RSV / NRSV. Besides, it helps to check the Greek.

Translation are opinions. Since the English bibles you so loved to quote are the work of trinitarians, the theological bias cannot be avoided. So I do need to check various translations and other resources.
 

Duckybill

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No need to rewrite translations, only pick the scholarly ones. One of them is the RSV / NRSV. Besides, it helps to check the Greek.

Translation are opinions. Since the English bibles you so loved to quote are the work of trinitarians, the theological bias cannot be avoided. So I do need to check various translations and other resources.
And that is YOUR opinion.

 

aspen

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Belantos,

Have you been to this site using another name? Perhaps, 'Truth'?
 

belantos

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You're the one who's trying to re-write our English Bibles to fit YOUR doctrines. Not me.


English bibles are no more than translations, and as such it always reflects the theological bias of the translators. To filter it out you need to access other resources and other translations. Why should I rewrite a translation? But I am interested to get behind the translators' bias and get the intended meaning.

Belantos,

Have you been to this site using another name? Perhaps, 'Truth'?

No, never.


And that is YOUR opinion.


Read the foreword of the NRSV. Not only mine. If you want a good selection of translations, I use the RSV / NRSV and NASB as primary translations, and use all others as secondary.