Job, and the precursor event to the great tribulation.

I personally see the opening of the seals as critical truths about life for the Church and for the world before the coming of the Kingdom. I don't see them as chronologically-ordered steps in history, leading up to the Kingdom.

The original "birth pains" Jesus spoke of were early warning signs of the destruction of Jerusalem, which took place in 70 AD. Jesus wanted the Church to know the meaning of those times in their nation so as to warn it and to prepare people to be Christian and thus ready for national judgment. Furthermore, the Christians in Israel could escape this particular judgment, since it was to punish the nation, and not those who repent.

But there is a new set of birth pains that herald the coming of the Kingdom, mentioned in 1 Thes 5.

"Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape."

This is a completely different set of birth pains designed not to warn the world, but only to inform the Church about the character of this present age, and about what to expect from an ungodly world. I think the opening of the seals in Revelation is in much the same genre--they describe the ungodly world so as to warn the Church what to expect in the NT era, directly preceding the coming of the Kingdom.

We are to expect a variety of displays of God's displeasure with the world, as well as the world's persecution of the righteous Church. Our testimony is to overcome this satanic resistance, heralding the coming of the Kingdom.

I do think we go too far, trying to turn the book of Revelation into a kind of "prophetic map," so that we can guess and anticipate a specific chronology of events. I do think there is some specificity regarding the final 3.5 years under Antichrist's imperial dominion. But basically, it's a statement regarding the character of the entire age, which at its core is antichristian.

God is not allowing the present world to set up its own "Tower of Babel," and the horsemen of judgment ride into this world, taking away the peace that the world is trying to establish based on humanism. In place of peace they find God's curses, including diseases, wars, and destruction.

The saints have to wait patiently until the age of evangelism is over. Then, when world resistance to God is at its height, the Kingdom of Christ will come.

David H. said:

According to you, when is it that this evangelism comes to an end? Is there a specific verse that comes to mind?

For me it is at the end of the sixth trumpet when repentance is no longer to be had. (Revelation 9:20-21)

Good comment.

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I see things so much the opposite than how many others into biblical prophecy see it. That is, I see it differently than those who are into *popular eschatology* today. Scholars tend to look much deeper into the subject, and consider historical perspectives, which is what I do. I've done this for decades. So I very much appreciate your kind consideration--I don't claim to have all the right answers--I'm just trying to do due diligence.

I do *not* see Revelation as a pile of clues designed to help us put together a cryptic puzzle so that we become wise and can anticipate what the lottery number will be!

So the 7 seals are not chronologically ordered so that we can sort of "count down" until launch, and have an insight that the world would be envious about. Rather, this is simply a list, all of which are important to note so that we know God has an intelligent design in the NT age as it proceeds towards the Kingdom of God. We are to be aware of the nature of the present age so that we can come to grips with the reality of living here by faith.

It is sort of weird that at the same time we are made aware of all God's judgments in these last days we are told that the Gospel of evangelism continues to go out to the world. The Great Commission sparked the beginning of this age of evangelism, which was designed to fulfill God's promises to Abraham, to first create Israel and then to create a people of many nations.

And so, beginning with the conversion of the Roman Empire, many nations in Europe were Christianized. And later in history, the Gospel went out during the age of Colonialism reaching out to the whole world. Whether nations were entirely converted or not, everybody has gotten to hear the Gospel if they have access to satellite broadcasts, if they have a phone or computer.

So from East to West the Gospel of Christ has touched the whole world, particularly as the advent of the computer has enabled language technologies to develop. The mission is finished when the same process that happened in ancient Israel is duplicated in all nations, whether those nations are converted or not.

The process is, first the Gospel is preached in a nation and heard. Then the nation either converts entirely or develops a minority of believers. Then, over time the message of the Gospel brings judgment to those who reject that message, as well as to those who after adopting the Gospel message fall away.

Just as Israel was judged as rebellious after a long period of covenant relationship with God, so European Civilization will, I believe, come under comprehensive judgment. This process has already begun to take place with two world wars already having taken place. Finally, when the Gospel has been heard everywhere, and European Civilization has completely apostacized, Armageddon will take place, preparing for a new Christian age.

When this Gospel is preached to every nation, and every nation is then brought under judgment, then it is time for the world to have its leadership judged and its people punished so that the Kingdom can be established on earth forever. This process has not awaited the end, but has been taking place all through NT history. God's judgments are always active when needed, as well as His outreach to the world, replete with embracing societies and individuals of faith, as well as performing acts of grace in nations that repent.

But there is a crescendo, I believe, in these endtimes, when European Civilization has touched the world with the Gospel of Christ, and then Christian Civilization recedes and is ready for judgment. This is when the Antichrist will arrive. He will be judged after only 3.5 years, according to Dan 7 and Rev 13.

I'm not offended by other views, and am actually encouraged by the excitement of modern prophecy enthusiasts, whether I agree with them or not. There certainly will be those of faith even up until the end!

Randy Kluth said:

The original "birth pains" Jesus spoke of were early warning signs of the destruction of Jerusalem, which took place in 70 AD.

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I think the church absolutely understood that destruction was going to take place in their generation and that’s why we read of them selling their houses and land. Better to get something for their properties, help some who needed help, and have money to relocate. We read of them selling there but not in other areas. They definitely knew it was coming in their own generation.

David H. said:

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. (Job 1:8-11)

For those with ears to hear....

I Believe something similar to this is going on in heaven regarding the church. The church is arguably the most prosperous at it has ever been, and as wealthy and blessed as ever, just Like Job was blessed and protected. In Revelation 12:10-11 we see that Satan is cast down from heaven because of the efficacy of the Blood of the Lamb in the lives of the saints which has transformed them such that their testimony is worthy of this when faced with their own death. This precursor event to the Great tribulation (The Wrath of Satan), I Believe is what many Christians are witnessing now in the world.

Has the fiery trial fallen upon you? If so be strong until the end even if that means your death, for by our overcoming we force the devil's hand. The following is for you if you are facing this trial.

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
(2 Thessalonians 1:7-12)

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You are looking at teh church with America only eyes! Most of Christianity is dirt poor and has little. The fat lazy believing church in America is in for big trouble when real trouble hits. Then we will see Jesus do a big pruning of the unsaved from the flocks of the saved!

but teh only precursor for what we call the tribulation (7 year time of trouble) is the Antichrist signing a 7 year covenant with the nation of Israel!

stunnedbygrace said:

I think the church absolutely understood that destruction was going to take place in their generation and that’s why we read of them selling their houses and land. Better to get something for their properties, help some who needed help, and have money to relocate. We read of them selling there but not in other areas. They definitely knew it was coming in their own generation.

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They had the entire Jewish Bible, replete with the warnings Jeremiah brought before the Babylonian judgment. Finally, they had Jesus himself, warning them that just as bad as the Jewish idolatry in Jeremiah's time, the Jews in his time were hiding their sin and hatred beneath a façade of religious works and charitable acts. They would suffer the same fate "in this generation," as Jesus said.

They should've known judgment was coming in their generation because of their evils and also because of the way they were treating Jesus. And they should've known that Jesus was predicting his own demise in that very generation, suggesting imminent judgment from God.

So their sins should've informed them, as well as the fact Jesus was being rejected, as well as his denunciation of their sins. And, as you say, the Olivet Discourse had a major focus on his generation, to warn them to repent and not fall victim to the same fate as the rebellious nation. Thanks much!

David H. said:

we see that Satan is cast down from heaven because of the efficacy of the Blood of the Lamb in the lives of the saints

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He will be cast down in the future in Revelation 12, because he loses the war in heaven.

Rev 12:7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,

Rev 12:8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.


The church did not cause that.

Curtis said:

He will be cast down in the future in Revelation 12, because he loses the war in heaven.

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Doesn't have to be future. He could have been cast out long ago. IMO that war started when Christ ascended so satan could have been here doing his evil things for a long time.

ewq1938 said:

Doesn't have to be future. He could have been cast out long ago. IMO that war started when Christ ascended so satan could have been here doing his evil things for a long time.

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Except Revelation 12 is a future event, specifically it’s at the middle of the tribulation period.

Curtis said:

Except Revelation 12 is a future event, specifically it’s at the middle of the tribulation period.

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The tribulation starts in Revelation 13:1, it has not yet started in Revelation 12.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

That is when satan goes to start the Great Tribulation. It's official start is in Revelation 13.

David H. said:

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. (Job 1:8-11)

For those with ears to hear....

I Believe something similar to this is going on in heaven regarding the church. The church is arguably the most prosperous at it has ever been, and as wealthy and blessed as ever, just Like Job was blessed and protected. In Revelation 12:10-11 we see that Satan is cast down from heaven because of the efficacy of the Blood of the Lamb in the lives of the saints which has transformed them such that their testimony is worthy of this when faced with their own death. This precursor event to the Great tribulation (The Wrath of Satan), I Believe is what many Christians are witnessing now in the world.

Has the fiery trial fallen upon you? If so be strong until the end even if that means your death, for by our overcoming we force the devil's hand. The following is for you if you are facing this trial.

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
(2 Thessalonians 1:7-12)

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Do you think it's significant that Job was from Uz and that Uz is in Edom, the nation Isaiah calls the land of God's judgment.

4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved,
And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll;
All their host shall fall down
As the leaf falls from the vine,
And as fruit falling from a fig tree.

5 “For My sword shall be bathed in heaven;
Indeed it shall come down on Edom,
And on the people of My curse, for judgment.
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood,
It is made overflowing with fatness,
With the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah,
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom. Isaiah 34:4-6