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Is it all on tithed donations from the flock?
I am intrigued to know as my church is catholic and i wonder how it works in other denominations?
Is it all on tithed donations from the flock?
I am intrigued to know as my church is catholic and i wonder how it works in other denominations?
Is it all on tithed donations from the flock?
I am intrigued to know as my church is catholic and i wonder how it works in other denominations?
Is it all on tithed donations from the flock?
I am intrigued to know as my church is catholic and i wonder how it works in other denominations?
Jesus and Paul did teach for the christians NOT to tithe.
The Holy Spirit and the Apostles prohibit the practice of tithing.
In all the NT there is not a single church or individual practicing or teaching tithe.
In all the Bible there is not a single verse that gives to the christian tithe a minimum of basis.
Goinheix,
I would like to know why you believe Jesus and the Apostles taught Christians NOT to tithe and prohibited the practice. I don't find any verse that says that. If you are referring to not being under the law, you should remember tithing was practiced before the law. Genesis 14:20 said Abram gave tithes on all he had.
Goinheix,
Jesus actually did approve of tithes as well. Matthew 23:23 said, "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgement, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
As for the teachings of the Apostles, I don't see where they said not to tithe. While he may not have mentioned tithes specifically, Paul did talk about giving to the ministry in most if not all of his epistles. Rom 13:6, 1 Cor 16:2, 2 Cor 9:7, Gal 6:6, Php 4:14 -18 for example, all talk about giving to the ministry in a positive way.
Goinheix,
I would like to know why you believe Jesus and the Apostles taught Christians NOT to tithe and prohibited the practice. I don't find any verse that says that. If you are referring to not being under the law, you should remember tithing was practiced before the law. Genesis 14:20 said Abram gave tithes on all he had.
Jesus actually did approve of tithes as well. Matthew 23:23 said, "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgement, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
As for the teachings of the Apostles, I don't see where they said not to tithe. While he may not have mentioned tithes specifically, Paul did talk about giving to the ministry in most if not all of his epistles. Rom 13:6, 1 Cor 16:2, 2 Cor 9:7, Gal 6:6, Php 4:14 -18 for example, all talk about giving to the ministry in a positive way.
Furthermore, let us also not forget that the only two death sentances in the Bible occured in Acts 5 and was pronounced by Peter. It wasn't the amount they gave, but lying about it. However, these people (even Ananias and Saphiras) gave more than just a tithe -- they gave all. The two in question didn't give all and lied about it.
So I'd like to know where in the Bible Jesus and the Apostles taught not to Tithe. If the problem is giving and not just tithing, certainly Peter and Paul preached that it should be done.
On a different note. I read a post in this thread I made to the original question. I don't know what I was thinking in that other than I must've misunderstood the question. So I apologize for that. We shouldn't care HOW the money is spent, and really where it comes from. I won't say where my Church gets the money, but I will say that Churches should be supported by the congregation and shouldn't have to resort to gimmicks or sales. Certainly, they shouldn't allow the gov't or outside organizations fund them as it allows (at least the supporter) to believe they have a say in what is being preached. Very dangerous for the Church!
While he may not have mentioned tithes specifically, Paul did talk about giving to the ministry in most if not all of his epistles. Rom 13:6, 1 Cor 16:2, 2 Cor 9:7, Gal 6:6, Php 4:14 -18 for example, all talk about giving to the ministry in a positive way.
Furthermore, let us also not forget that the only two death sentances in the Bible occured in Acts 5 and was pronounced by Peter. It wasn't the amount they gave, but lying about it. However, these people (even Ananias and Saphiras) gave more than just a tithe -- they gave all. The two in question didn't give all and lied about it.
So I'd like to know where in the Bible Jesus and the Apostles taught not to Tithe. If the problem is giving and not just tithing, certainly Peter and Paul preached that it should be done.
On a different note. I read a post in this thread I made to the original question. I don't know what I was thinking in that other than I must've misunderstood the question. So I apologize for that. We shouldn't care HOW the money is spent, and really where it comes from. I won't say where my Church gets the money, but I will say that Churches should be supported by the congregation and shouldn't have to resort to gimmicks or sales. Certainly, they shouldn't allow the gov't or outside organizations fund them as it allows (at least the supporter) to believe they have a say in what is being preached. Very dangerous for the Church!
Abraham did tithe only one time in hes entire life. And Abraham did never ever tithe out of his own property. Abrahm, the only time in his life that did tithe was out of others properites, not his. Abraham did not tithe never before, and did not tithe never after. That isolated tithe did not set any doctrine or practice. Ismael and Isaac his sond did never tithe. Jacob did never tithe. The 12 sons of Jacob-Israel did never tithe. The people of Israel did never tithe until Moses. Searching in the oposite direction; Abraham Father and Grand Father did never tithe. Actually we can go back all the way to Adam and found that nobody did tithe.
Calling "hypocrites" to those that tithe; is not a good starting. Jesus instead of tithing is claiming for judgement, mercy and faith. Because God requires from as misericordy not sacrifices. Because the money belong to Caesar not to God.
The tithe of the law - the tithe Jesus is refering to - was intended to suport the temple, the service and sacrifices. All of that ceased in the cross. There is not more need of priest, sacrifices or temple. That is way Jesus is using past tense. It was necessary, but it is not necessary any more.
Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29. The Apostles decided to prohibit the impossing any of the Moses Laws. That includes the Moses Law of the tithe. In the entire Bible we can not found any doctrine of tithing other tahn in the Moses Law. If we dont read or quote the books of Moses or the Moses Law, we dont found a verse promoting the tithe in all the rest of the Bible. Tithe is a Moses Law and it is prohibit to impose, encourage, or permit the practice of any Moses Law, including tithe. Tithe have been prohibited for christians.
Paul have been very clear that the christians have the responsability to provide financial support for those caring for the local church, watching for the spiritual life of the congregation. He also teaches to take care of widows and brother in necesity. And he (Paul) is not alone in that direction. The amuzing thing is that him or even James did never ever mentioned the tithe. Yes we have to give for the pastor, for the poors in the congregation, for assisting others congregation...but not one time it is mention to do it by tithing. Tithing is not a christian doctrine.
The first church in Act, did never ever practiced tithe. Ananias and Saphira did not tithe. The two in question were not kill for not tithing. Not tihing is OK; and if we continue with this topic you will discover how bad is to tithe.
I think I have answer that.
Jesus is teaching that God is not expecting nor accepting our money. The money is specifically for Caesar. Also Jesus did state that the need for tithe did cease in the cross.
The Apostles position is in Act 15:28-29
Paul teaching against the practice of any Moses Law is very well know. Romans and Efesians are two examples. Tithe is a Moses Law and is one of the things Paul is teaching against.
The Churches can not at all be supported by tithe of the brothers. Teaching or practicing tithe is a rebelion to the Holy Spirit. A congregation practicing tithe is in desobedience to the Holy Spirit. A church that need money fron ntithe is a carnal tithe, have not the power or direction of the Holy Spirit and only can do things in the power of the money, and the direction of a economist..
Regardless of how many times Abraham gave tithes, it was still before the Law. It is not recorded that he gave tithes more than once, but it doesn't say he never tithed again. In any case, its irrelevant. Also Jacob vowed to give tithes (a tenth). That's in Genesis 28.
Jesus did say you ought to give tithes. It was a rebuke for not considering the weightier matters, but he still said to the pharasees "this ye ought to do". Furthermore, Jesus was not against giving money. Remember the widow who gave her last mites. She gave ALL she had and that was more than a mere tithe.
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Jesus and Paul did teach for the christians NOT to tithe.
The Holy Spirit and the Apostles prohibit the practice of tithing.
If you believe we no longer have to tithe, that's fine. I can agree with that. However, no where do any of the apostles forbid it. The best we can say is that we are required not to lie about how much we give, we should give cheerfully and we should give as much as is in our hearts to give. If thats's less than a tenth, fine. If it's more than a tenth, that's ok too. We are not forbidden on any account to what limit we can give.
We are meant to give what we can as Christians to help others in the community and other nations suffering.
-- Care to share the scripture that supports that position?
1) According to the Bible Abraham did never tithe of his own property. if we have to guess how many times did Abraham parcticed tithe along his life, the best guess wil be cero, nil
I don't guess with the Bible. Granted, it doesn't whether he did or not. He did however tithe. That's the bottom line. it was his own property too. He concuered it. and from that point it was his.
2) We can not stablish a doctrine based on the speculation that besides the Bible never saying that Abraham did practice tithing, we - you - presumes that he did tithe all his life.
I make no presumptions. I acknowledge it is the only time the Bible says he tithed. God however, did establish a doctrine from that. Hebrews 7:5 confirms that. If God made it a doctrine, then it matters nothing whether we call it one or not.
3) No where in the Bible we are encouraged to do the same thing that Abraham did. That is tithing, having sex with the slave of the wife, offering his child insacrifice, going to war agains those who were enemies of his frinds. But more that all of that, we are not suppose to do the things that we like to imagine that he did.
I actually can show that we are encouraged to to some of the same things Abraham did -- even under grace. One of them is to have faith. Abraham's faith is listed at least twice in two different epistles as being the type of faith we should have. However, by this statement, you are lumping in Giving to God (through the Man of God) in the same light as having sex with a slave, offering child in sacrifice (which should be looked at more as obeying God instead of offering children as sacrifice) and going to war with enemies of friends. That is pretty low! You have taken a single one good thing Abraham did and lumped it in with many bad things (by societies standards) he did. Thus, it seems you are saying that tithing is evil. That's just the way it looks to me and what your statement infers.
4) You are right saying that the Abraham tithe - of others, not own property - is irrelevant. And I dont understan what is has to do with Christian tithe. It is all irrelevant for doctrinig over tithe.
Again, he owned that property. He conquered it. God ordained it and Abraham did it. It was earned. Yes it is irrelevant. It is irrelevant that he earned it. He still tithed it.
5) Jacob did vowed to comence giving tithes to God. That means few things:
- That Jacob was not tihing before he vowed to commence tithing.
So what?
- That the silence on the Bible concerning Abrahm tithing, Lot tithing; Ismael tithing; Isaac tithing, Esau tithing, and Jacob tithing; means that actually they did never tithe at all.
It does not mean they never did. In a long and round about way.... They actually did through Abraham as Hebrews 7 talks about.
- That the fact of Abraham tithing - once of not of his own property - did not stablished any doctrine or practice in his family.
It was his property and it did establish a doctrine not only in his family, but in the Law of Moses.
6) Have you noticed that Jacob did never kept the promess to God and that he did never tithe?
I have not noticed because such an accusation is unfounded. Jacob may have been a deceiver to his dad, but he did not lie to God nor break an oath to God. He vowed it. That's enough for me.
7) Abraham tithe was previous to Moses Law. But it is clear that Jews or Christians never were supposed to tithe as Abraham did tithe.
Jews wer supposed to tithe. That is clear from the Law of Moses. You can say that after the Law was abolished, they didn't have to. I can understand that. Here is my most concerning point. You have previously said that Christians are forbidden to tithe. I would like validation of that statement. Again, I understand English is not your first language and perhaps there is a language barrier. However: Jesus, Peter, John, James, Paul nor any of the other Apostles nor any other man of the ministry ever forbid tithing. Please show me where under the Law of Grace we are forbidden to give tithes.
This is your rule: if the Christians comes to my church and give money, I will accept whatever they give. I will never refuse to accept any money gived to my church.
Unfortunally to recieve tithe it is prohibited for you and all pastors and churches. The Holy Spirit did prohibit it. Pay attention to the next. All the Bible and the NT is inspired by the Holy Spirit; but in all the Bible and NT there is not any time where we read something like "the Holy Spirit say". Actually we can read it only in one oportunity, and is in Acts 15:28-29. Those verses are directly said by the Holy Spirit. Will you dare not to obey those verses? Will you risk to ofend the Holy Spirit?
Those verses are very clear in the direction of not impossing to the christians any of the Moses Laws (except for a short list included). Not to impose any Moses Law is any at all. No one of all 600 plus Moses Laws. There is not a list of all the 600 plus Moses Laws, but a short list of exceptions. We can imposse only those very few Moses Laws and not any other one. And guess what? Tithing is one of those Moses Laws that are prohibited to impose, teach or aloud.
Tell me. Out of all 600 plus Moses Laws (that is not the 10 commandment wich are God Law), how many do you ask your brother to keep? Probably only one: "give me your money"
Now let see if tithing is a Moses Law or not:
Tithing is included in the Moses Law, but also we read of tithe before Moses times.
Keeping the sabbath (that is from Fri sunset to Say sunset) is included in the Moses Law, but also we read of the sabbath before Moses times.
Circunsicion is included in Moses Law, but we read of circunsucion before Moses times.
Do you require for your brother to tithe, keep the sabbath and be circunsuced?
Or insted you tell your brothers not to care for the circunsiced, not to bother in observing the sabbath, but to bring your money every week and every month?
Wow.... That's about all I can say. Ok.... Don't tithe. I never said you had to. I don't look down on you for not tithing. We don't have a problem with that...
But I am a little upset at your statement which claims, "This is your rule". I haven't made any rules. I openly admit we don't have to tithe anymore. My point is that there is nothing that says we are forbidden to tithe.
You have said that wikipedia has more authority than the Gospels, that the new testament wasn't as inspired at the old testament. And now, much less importantly, you are telling me what "my" rules are. This is unreal. I hope this is a matter of a language barrier.Because its pretty insulting to me, and more importantly to the Holy Spirit.
Wonderfull. Now you are out of any argument and try the low punches and dirty moves. Is like I am insulting you and them I will be baned and your problem will end. Is like I am insulting the Holy Spirit and I will be expiulsed for blasphemy and this tithe topic will be on save.
The true is that in Act 15:28-29 the Holy Spirit is giving personal guidelines prohibiting to impose the Moses Law to the christinas. It is a direct and personal command of the Holy Spirit. Probably those insulting the Holy Spirit are those that keep impossing the Moses Law on the christians. It is not me insulting the Holy Spirit, but those desabeying Him by impossing the Moses Law of tithe.