The tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

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Mantis

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I think people are born into moral and immoral behavior.
Chosen from the day they are in the womb as a vessel for good or bad.
And God knows each one by name.
I had a "friend" when I was very young. We used to share our barbie dolls. But she would steal my dolls clothes, and then tell her mother that I stole hers. Rather than fight about it, I would let her choose which ones she believed were hers. I wasn't attached to the dolls or the clothes. They didn't mean that much to me. But her actions and lies, I didn't understand.
Later during elementary school, she would run up behind me and punch me in the stomach laughing for no cause.
I was cautious of her, but I didn't hate her. I just didn't understand why.
One day she confronted me and wanted to fight. I said I didn't want to fight, but she insisted.
She kept pushing me and hitting me, and then I let her have it.
One punch to the face, left a bruise over her eye. I felt terrible.
She told her mother, who told my mother, and I ended up getting a light punishment for my actions, because my mother knew I was goaded into it, and I really had no choice. She wouldn't let me walk away.

I still think about those days, some 40+ years ago.
I don't know where she is now, I left that city many years ago.

Why are some people born knowing to do good, and others knowing to do bad?
She had 2 older brothers, I had 2 older brothers. None of them were saints.
I had a mother and a father. Her mother was divorced.
We both lived on the same side of the tracks, except my dad had an income and they were on welfare.
Does your financial situation determine your morals?
I've known a lot of poor people with one parent that have good hearts.
I don't know the answer...

just thinking
hugs
I have three cousins that were all siblings. One was not nice and lied etc. reminds me of your “friend”. She grew up to be a drug addict. Stole from everyone that loved her. Even when she said she was getting clean they (parents) would let her “recover” and live with them. She would then steal valuables and disappear. This happened a few times. Now she is a drug addicted homeless person. Quite sad. I have Been praying for her salvation even though she was mean when I was little. God can change anyone. But I do wonder why she turned out that way. The other two turned out great.
 
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Ziggy

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Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

willing to shew his wrath.. and to make his power known.
We know the power of God is love and mercy, so how would God show his mercy without showing what is unacceptable behavior?

Which were afore prepared unto glory..
This is why God rose up Pharoah so he could show his wrath and displeasure,
and show mercy unto his people that were afore prepared, that didn't even know his name.

I mean, we have the answers, it's the processing of them that is slow to understand.
Specially when your a kid.

And then you have Nineveh... that don't know their left hand from their right.
But for them that KNOW to do good... I think that's the clincher right there.. the knowing.
and do it not... to them it is sin.

So then what of innocent mistakes, or not understanding between right and wrong?

A rude awakening for some perhaps?

I hope the world wakes up sooner than later.
Time is getting shorter by the second.

Did you know the Dooms Day clock is down to 100 seconds?
that's scary on one hand and anticipation of a new day on the other.
I just pray where we go one we go all, and none are left behind.
And that God in his mercy, which purposefully fashioned vessels for his purpose,
will truly show us what grace and mercy looks like face to face.

But hte evil ones. The ones who know to do good and do it not..
Justice and Righteousness up front and personal.

I'm in a rambling mood today..
forgive me.
Hugs
 
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farouk

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Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

willing to shew his wrath.. and to make his power known.
We know the power of God is love and mercy, so how would God show his mercy without showing what is unacceptable behavior?

Which were afore prepared unto glory..
This is why God rose up Pharoah so he could show his wrath and displeasure,
and show mercy unto his people that were afore prepared, that didn't even know his name.

I mean, we have the answers, it's the processing of them that is slow to understand.
Specially when your a kid.

And then you have Nineveh... that don't know their left hand from their right.
But for them that KNOW to do good... I think that's the clincher right there.. the knowing.
and do it not... to them it is sin.

So then what of innocent mistakes, or not understanding between right and wrong?

A rude awakening for some perhaps?

I hope the world wakes up sooner than later.
Time is getting shorter by the second.

Did you know the Dooms Day clock is down to 100 seconds?
that's scary on one hand and anticipation of a new day on the other.
I just pray where we go one we go all, and none are left behind.
And that God in his mercy, which purposefully fashioned vessels for his purpose,
will truly show us what grace and mercy looks like face to face.

But hte evil ones. The ones who know to do good and do it not..
Justice and Righteousness up front and personal.

I'm in a rambling mood today..
forgive me.
Hugs
@Ziggy Solemn verses there...
 
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Jim B

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It is true that Christians are not under the ceremonial or sacrificial parts of the law of Moses, but Jesus himself reiterated many things from the moral aspects of the law in his teachings, and the apostles also restated these things in their letters, (marriage, sexual immorality etc) so I cannot understand anyone saying that the moral laws do not apply. Even remaining wrathful with a brother was condemned by Jesus.

“Grace” is not a license to sin. OSAS is not scriptural. Christ’s sacrifice covered past sins and mistakes in judgment thereafter, but repentance is required or no forgiveness can be expected. Repentance means not repeating a past sin because you know better and can exercise self-control. (a fruit or product do God’s spirit)

If I have misunderstood your post please correct me.

As I have said previously, the law (of any kind) is external, i.e., a set of commands that we're required to follow. Once the Holy Sprit was given to guide us into all truth (John 16:13a), then our guidance is internal. The so-called moral laws are no exception, and don't apply to certain present-day realities. Where does it say anything in the moral laws about exceeding the speed limit or "unfriending" someone on social media?

Or let's take a look at a OT law: do not steal. When you go into a store are you actually tempted to steal something or will you pay for it? Not many people are tempted to steal, but the law gives "teeth" to the impulse (if you're so inclined). Or how about committing adultery? When you're with someone who isn't your spouse, do you need a law telling you not to seduce them? However the law gives "teeth" to the impulse (if you're so inclined). And so on...

As Paul wrote in Romans 2:21b-23, " You who preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?"

It truly saddens me that some Christians still persist in following the OT law, which is a denial of Christ.
 

Aunty Jane

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@Ziggy, your ramblings often make a lot of sense. :)
You reminded me of the scripture in 2 Thessalonians 1:3-11...where Paul wrote....

3 We are obligated always to give thanks to God for you, brothers. This is fitting, because your faith is growing exceedingly and the love of each and every one of you is increasing toward one another. 4 As a result we ourselves take pride in you among the congregations of God because of your endurance and faith in all your persecutions and the hardships that you are suffering. 5 This is a proof of the righteous judgment of God, leading to your being counted worthy of the Kingdom of God, for which you are indeed suffering.

6 This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.

11 To that very end we always pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling and with his power perform completely all the good that he pleases and every work of faith.”


The “Holy Ones” (God’s elect) are speaking as a separate group to those who exercise faith in Christ and are “counted worthy of the Kingdom of God”. The “elect” will rule in heaven with Jesus, but the ones not so chosen, will be their subjects here on earth.

The ones who will not be spared when Jesus comes as judge are those “who do not know God” (because they don’t want to know him)....and those “who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus” (because they fail to do the will of the Father as he instructed them to.) So ‘knowing but not doing’ is as bad as unbelief in God’s eyes.

Those who ‘don’t want to know God’ may well wish they had when it comes to the crunch, or perhaps they will go down shaking their fist at him....who knows?
But it’s those who ‘DO know what is required of them as Christ’s disciples, and yet fail to act on that knowledge’ who will go down with the unbelievers. That is sobering, considering that the majority of those who identify as Christians are nominal...not active in their daily lives, counting on going to church maybe once a week and that’s it.....they are not obedient to the Christ in all things, every day. We are not at liberty to pick and choose what we will, or will not do in our Christian walk. It’s all or nothing....our Christianity isn’t something we can switch off when it’s inconvenient. We can’t pick it up at the door of a church, and then leave it there on our way out. It’s a 24/7 commitment. How many people take it that seriously? The OSAS group are most at risk in this, IMO.

This is serious, because Jesus words in Matthew 7:21-23 indicate that “many” have no idea that they have failed in this.......

21 Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’”

They seem to think that they have done all that is required of them....so how have they lost their salvation, whilst at the same time believing that they were doing the right thing? How are they “lawless” if there is no law?
In what way have they been remiss? Why have they not been corrected?.....or have they, and they simply did not see a need to change their thinking?

What are your thoughts?
 
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Ziggy

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They seem to think that they have done all that is required of them....so how have they lost their salvation, whilst at the same time believing that they were doing the right thing? How are they “lawless” if there is no law?
In what way have they been remiss? Why have they not been corrected?.....or have they, and they simply did not see a need to change their thinking?

What are your thoughts?
So this makes me think of the verses about not keeping their first estate...

Jde 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Jde 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

I often say History repeats itself. Perhaps it's not just times and places but entities as well.
We can look at history and say this person was just like that person. We can see a similarity in their personage and their actions.
I'm not sure where I stand on the issue of reincarnation. I believe it's a possibilty.
Saying that, then, these "angels" or messengers as the word is defined, have held different positions of authority throughout the "courses"
of time.
What is the first estate?
God sends them as messengers and servants to help the next generation progress up the ladder.
As each course progresses, perhaps they become self-righteous in their own eyes. Believing that it is they themselves that control the way things operate. They give themselves more authority, wanting to be served rather than to serve.
Perhaps this trait, this character that enters the next course is more bullyish, more demanding, more lawless. Making their own rules as each cycle turns.
Courses would be the cycles of life - death - life - death... that we have been here before, and will be again.
Those that are ever climbing up and down the ladder of progression or regression.
There are times in history when we have sunk so low and so far from God that it necessitates a new beginning. Such as Sodom and Gomorrah, the flood, the end of the ages.

So it could be as some come into this world progressing upwards, others come into the world regressing downwards, according to how they managed the office they were given in the last course of life.
I see this in the parable of the talents.

Sometimes I think that we are the angels in the flesh that fell from heaven. And this is our "pergatory" I guess it's called.
We are prisoned in this world, on this planet, and our flesh is the sin which we carry as a chain, or burden.
Some people are born with the ability to thwart temptations while others are weak and fall victim to it.
And that is measured by the amount of faith we retained in our last course, or life and death cycle,

So while some are born to do good, others are born to do bad.
But not one is without hope of getting back on the right course.
There is always repentance which causes a turning on the ladder and heading upwards once again.

Yeah, new agey.. I know. However, we are in a new age now and new depths of understandings are born everyday.
I'm sure what Paul was preaching sounded new agey to the early church as well.
They probably thought he was a tinfoil hat right wing conspiracy theorist. lol. And many wanted to see him gone.

Have set us Apostles last...

1Co 4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

When Paul says, as it were appointed to death, that sounds like to me, the end of the old course and the beginning of the new.
What is the meaning of "the world" , "angels" , and "men" .
There are 3 catagories or stations, like elevations or steps... the world, angels, and men.
The world would be the low rung on the ladder. The basest of humanity. Angels would be the servants or helpers to the world to climb up to the next level, where those in the world would progress and become angels. And then there are men. Man having achieved the prize. Having run the race and overcome the flesh and all it's obstacles.
But the Bible says that men are as beasts. They are no better and no worse than the world in which they rose from. They forget from whence they came. They become prideful and selfrighteous and end up back in prison, in the flesh, only to be humbled once again.

World without end.

Again here is 3 catagories.

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

The order is reversed. tongues of men, of angels, and confusion or nonsensicle.
Tongues of men... Those that have understanding, that have overcome or are overcoming.
Tongues of angels... as a servant, a messenger, one who serves and teaches, makes known to the
world in all its confusion and lack of knowledge and without a conductor to lead the symphony.

Paul,
The admonisher of men, the instructor to the angels, and a voice of hope to the lost.
Paul speaks on all 3 rungs of the ladder.
And meets everyone on their own level of understanding. Perhaps that is why there is so much division in the church.
Not everyone is on the same rung at the same time. And the messages Paul preaches have a place and time for everyone but not at the same time.
So we find ourselves acting as children declaring that they themselves have all the truth, when others may be still above or below or in the middle of the learning process.

Those that scoff are heading down the ladder. Those that are open and willing to listen are moving up the ladder.
And in the next course, they will be born into the world where they left off in the last.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

These spirits in prison...
Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

If we believe, and have faith, and take up our cross, our worldly desires, our old man, and crucify that way of living,
and if we overcome the world, then I think it's possible that is the next life we become as the angels in heaven, the servants, the helpers, the ministers. And yet still tempted by earthy desires. As was the case of the sons of God who saw the daughters of men, and took of them who they chose. They began descending down the ladder once again.

What are your thoughts?

:D

My thoughts are like a many layered onion.
Sometimes the onion is sweet and sometimes it makes me cry.
There is no core to this onion and there is no outer layer.
Or if there is, I havent found the beginning or the ending of all the layers of my thoughts.

Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Hugs
 

Aunty Jane

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As Paul wrote in Romans 2:21b-23, " You who preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?"

It truly saddens me that some Christians still persist in following the OT law, which is a denial of Christ.
And it truly saddens me that the OSAS mentality is so flawed. We can lose our salvation.

2 Peter 2:20-22...
"And when people escape from the wickedness of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then get tangled up and enslaved by sin again, they are worse off than before. 21 It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life. 22 They prove the truth of this proverb: “A dog returns to its vomit.” And another says, “A washed pig returns to the mud.”
 

stunnedbygrace

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It truly saddens me that some Christians still persist in following the OT law, which is a denial of Christ.

The point is that if I do not physically kill anyone, I have not actually kept the law to not murder. So…following OT law is not actually keeping OT law.
That is why Paul began chapter 2 with: you may think you can condemn such people but you are just as bad.

If I must keep the law to not murder, and if to have anger inside is to have murdered, then it is impossible for me to keep that law. Utterly impossible. If I think I am keeping it, I am deceived and do not understand that law.

But the awful mistake comes from then declaring: I must live with this sin that is in me and can never keep the law to not murder, since it is impossible for me to keep it, so thank God I do not have to keep it.
That is to have a form of godliness but to deny the power that could make you godly. It is unbelief. It is Sarah laughing about being told she would have a child, since it was no longer physically possible for her to have one. It’s to say: it is impossible for me to do, therefore, it cannot happen. It’s unbelief.
 
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farouk

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So this makes me think of the verses about not keeping their first estate...

Jde 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Jde 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

I often say History repeats itself. Perhaps it's not just times and places but entities as well.
We can look at history and say this person was just like that person. We can see a similarity in their personage and their actions.
I'm not sure where I stand on the issue of reincarnation. I believe it's a possibilty.
Saying that, then, these "angels" or messengers as the word is defined, have held different positions of authority throughout the "courses"
of time.
What is the first estate?
God sends them as messengers and servants to help the next generation progress up the ladder.
As each course progresses, perhaps they become self-righteous in their own eyes. Believing that it is they themselves that control the way things operate. They give themselves more authority, wanting to be served rather than to serve.
Perhaps this trait, this character that enters the next course is more bullyish, more demanding, more lawless. Making their own rules as each cycle turns.
Courses would be the cycles of life - death - life - death... that we have been here before, and will be again.
Those that are ever climbing up and down the ladder of progression or regression.
There are times in history when we have sunk so low and so far from God that it necessitates a new beginning. Such as Sodom and Gomorrah, the flood, the end of the ages.

So it could be as some come into this world progressing upwards, others come into the world regressing downwards, according to how they managed the office they were given in the last course of life.
I see this in the parable of the talents.

Sometimes I think that we are the angels in the flesh that fell from heaven. And this is our "pergatory" I guess it's called.
We are prisoned in this world, on this planet, and our flesh is the sin which we carry as a chain, or burden.
Some people are born with the ability to thwart temptations while others are weak and fall victim to it.
And that is measured by the amount of faith we retained in our last course, or life and death cycle,

So while some are born to do good, others are born to do bad.
But not one is without hope of getting back on the right course.
There is always repentance which causes a turning on the ladder and heading upwards once again.

Yeah, new agey.. I know. However, we are in a new age now and new depths of understandings are born everyday.
I'm sure what Paul was preaching sounded new agey to the early church as well.
They probably thought he was a tinfoil hat right wing conspiracy theorist. lol. And many wanted to see him gone.

Have set us Apostles last...

1Co 4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

When Paul says, as it were appointed to death, that sounds like to me, the end of the old course and the beginning of the new.
What is the meaning of "the world" , "angels" , and "men" .
There are 3 catagories or stations, like elevations or steps... the world, angels, and men.
The world would be the low rung on the ladder. The basest of humanity. Angels would be the servants or helpers to the world to climb up to the next level, where those in the world would progress and become angels. And then there are men. Man having achieved the prize. Having run the race and overcome the flesh and all it's obstacles.
But the Bible says that men are as beasts. They are no better and no worse than the world in which they rose from. They forget from whence they came. They become prideful and selfrighteous and end up back in prison, in the flesh, only to be humbled once again.

World without end.

Again here is 3 catagories.

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

The order is reversed. tongues of men, of angels, and confusion or nonsensicle.
Tongues of men... Those that have understanding, that have overcome or are overcoming.
Tongues of angels... as a servant, a messenger, one who serves and teaches, makes known to the
world in all its confusion and lack of knowledge and without a conductor to lead the symphony.

Paul,
The admonisher of men, the instructor to the angels, and a voice of hope to the lost.
Paul speaks on all 3 rungs of the ladder.
And meets everyone on their own level of understanding. Perhaps that is why there is so much division in the church.
Not everyone is on the same rung at the same time. And the messages Paul preaches have a place and time for everyone but not at the same time.
So we find ourselves acting as children declaring that they themselves have all the truth, when others may be still above or below or in the middle of the learning process.

Those that scoff are heading down the ladder. Those that are open and willing to listen are moving up the ladder.
And in the next course, they will be born into the world where they left off in the last.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

These spirits in prison...
Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

If we believe, and have faith, and take up our cross, our worldly desires, our old man, and crucify that way of living,
and if we overcome the world, then I think it's possible that is the next life we become as the angels in heaven, the servants, the helpers, the ministers. And yet still tempted by earthy desires. As was the case of the sons of God who saw the daughters of men, and took of them who they chose. They began descending down the ladder once again.



:D

My thoughts are like a many layered onion.
Sometimes the onion is sweet and sometimes it makes me cry.
There is no core to this onion and there is no outer layer.
Or if there is, I havent found the beginning or the ending of all the layers of my thoughts.

Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Hugs
@Ziggy Great verses there in Ephesians..... :)
 
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Ziggy

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Humans are born without the knowledge of good & evil. They gain it & which is forsaking faith in Christ? Deuteronomy 1:39.
perhaps they are born without the knowledge. I'll agree with that.
But good and evil is more than knowing, I'd say it's like an instinct. And somes got it and somes don't.
As far as gaining knowledge, most of which is through parental guidence, teachers, peers, but I believe experience is the knowledge that stays with you. Street smart vs. Book smart sort of thing. Hands on training rather than a manual.
I prefer the street smart hands on approach.

So here's the thing... I had a thought a few minutes ago..:rolleyes:
If you don't know me, well I always have a thoughts about a lot of things. It's my hands on approach you could say.
Sometimes I touch the stove and get burned, but nevertheless I learn new things every day.

So this thought...

Everybody always says we don't need the written law because we walk by faith and not by sight.
So far so good?
Why do we need a Bible then?
Just asking..

I mean, I use the Bible all the time for all kinds of reasons. Research, History, Geography, moral lessons, etc.
I even get to learn a little Greek and Hebrew along the way. Added bonus seeing I only know English.

In the book of Revelation we are even cautioned concerning what we should not be learning...
Rev 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

God says, My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge..
Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Recap: this thread is about the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Sometimes I have a habit of getting off track a bit.

knowledge is a tool in which it can be used for good or evil depending upon the heart that weilds it.
God created the tree of knowledge.
Adam and Eve all of a sudden knew they did something wrong.
At this point they have 2 choices. Confess, or Lie.
They chose to put the blame on the snake.
But the decision to eat had always been theirs to eat or not to eat.
They chose death. They chose lying, stealing, coveting... etc.

They took the hands on approach and found out the hard way. Because it's the only way to really know anything.
I can read you anything out of a book. I can preach to you about right and wrong. But until you experience it for yourself, you will never truly know.

Now after they knew, they had an opportunity to make it right. This is now judgment day. Adam and Eve had been living under grace. The only law they had was one, don't eat it.
But they broke that one commandment, bringing death upon themselves, (because it is appointed unto man once to die, ) and then face judgement day. Well. now it's judgement day and God is asking, what did you do?
She made me do it, the snake made me do it.
Did he really though? Did he take that fruit and force it on Eve?
She was already checking it out. It looked good, sounded good, why not?

Remember, when they ate the fruit, they also ate of the knowledge of good.
And to him that knows to do good and does it not, it is what? Sin.
Thus sin enetered into the world, because Adam chose not to do good.

As far as gaining knowledge and leading us away from faith?
Knowledge having learned more than basic instinct of right and wrong, is the tool that helps us choose which path to follow.
It's like a Freud thing in psychology.. the positive or negative reinforcement of doing something.
That doesn't come from a book. That is learned by experience.
And experience is knowledge.

Faith also is based on experience. You can't learn faith from a book. You have to get out of the boat, stand in that water and believe you won't sink.
You can't learn trust, or love, of hate, or anything from a book.
It all comes from experience and experience is knowledge.
Adam and Eve had never experienced death until they did.
If everlasting life is knowing God, then death is severing that bond. The ultimate divorce.
And yet God reached out his hand and gave them an opportunity to do the good thing that they also aquired when they ate the fruit.
They had choice.

I don't know if this even comes close to your question @Saved Christian ,
it's just the way this brain of mine works.
I tend to ramble a lot.
And think a lot.
:D
Hugs
 
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Lambano

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If as you agree moral law is destroyed, how can it be applicable to Christians?
If Paul prohibits the same behavior as the "moral law" (see 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21), what's the difference between obeying a written code or using a written code to identify walking by the flesh for what it is?
 
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Lambano

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Humans are born without the knowledge of good & evil. They gain it & which is forsaking faith in Christ?

I would add the nuance that babies are born without experiential knowledge of Good and Evil, but with a predilection for evil. (Babies are self-centered on their own wants and needs and to hell with anyone else, they want what they want when they want it, and they'll start screaming and crying if they don't get it.) In this I think I am in agreement with @Ziggy. Children gain experience in Good and Evil as they grow. They have to be taught to identify right from wrong, which is separate from the experiential knowledge of Good and Evil. Children also have to be taught faith in Christ, which often (but not necessarily?) goes hand-in-hand with being able to identify right and wrong.

Where do we want to go with that?
 
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Lambano

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Ephesians 2:15:"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances". Haven't you read this?
When read in the context of Ephesians 2:11-21, I don't think verse 15 is talking about what you think it's talking about, but we'll leave that be for now.
 
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Aunty Jane

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I often say History repeats itself. Perhaps it's not just times and places but entities as well.
We can look at history and say this person was just like that person. We can see a similarity in their personage and their actions.
I'm not sure where I stand on the issue of reincarnation. I believe it's a possibilty.
History certainly does repeat because human nature does not change.....times and standards change, but not the way humans think and behave....satan counts on that....it grants him success in every generation.

God sends them as messengers and servants to help the next generation progress up the ladder.
As each course progresses, perhaps they become self-righteous in their own eyes. Believing that it is they themselves that control the way things operate. They give themselves more authority, wanting to be served rather than to serve.
Perhaps this trait, this character that enters the next course is more bullyish, more demanding, more lawless. Making their own rules as each cycle turns.
I see a vastly different scenario in the Bible. I see human beings in the beginning tempted into rebellion so that satan could have worshippers. Its all he really wanted if we are going to speak of ambition and control. None of his fellow angels could see him as a 'god' because he was their equal, but not so with the humans who were a lower creation. He allowed that ambition to fester and plotted a way to separate the humans from the Creator....only then, after he had deceived them, could he have his way with them. Satan also managed to ensnare a large number of his fellow angels who also abused their free will, like satan did as he no doubt pointed out the benefits of the so called freedom they could enjoy, just as he did with the woman. It was a sad delusion, but God allowed them to run with it as it would test out the faith of his children in both realms...both humans and angels.

There are times in history when we have sunk so low and so far from God that it necessitates a new beginning. Such as Sodom and Gomorrah, the flood, the end of the ages.
By allowing them the freedom they thought would come from obeying the devil instead of their God, he could teach them valuable lessons.

God only intervened when his purpose was threatened by their wickedness.....so sometimes he had to slow things down so that wickedness did not advance and spread too rapidly. But the end of the present age is not a mere episode in an ongoing cycle, but what I believe is the culmination of all these thousands of years of abusing the privilege of free will, and in the end to see them bring the planet and all who inhabit it to the brink of extinction.....and we are already there.....but God will never allow it to be destroyed entirely. (Revelation 11:18) He will bring an end to the destroyers first.

Sometimes I think that we are the angels in the flesh that fell from heaven. And this is our "pergatory" I guess it's called.
We are prisoned in this world, on this planet, and our flesh is the sin which we carry as a chain, or burden.
Some people are born with the ability to thwart temptations while others are weak and fall victim to it.
And that is measured by the amount of faith we retained in our last course, or life and death cycle,
Interesting thought, but not supported by the Bible. There is no "purgatory" in the scriptures.....or "hell" for that matter.....in fact there is no immortal soul to go anywhere. The dead sleep peacefully in their graves, (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) and for that I am grateful because if all our loved ones were up in heaven seeing what is happening down here...and not being able to do anything to stop the bloodshed, diseases and natural disasters that are hitting us in Job-like succession, how could heaven ever be a happy place?

Angels were actually created long before we were. They were around when God created the universe.....so there is no record of them ever needing to come to earth as some kind of training ground. They were designed for their realm, and we were designed for ours. Angels have the ability to exist in both realms.....in the flesh, we only have the ability to exist in one.
 
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Aunty Jane

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So while some are born to do good, others are born to do bad.
But not one is without hope of getting back on the right course.
There is always repentance which causes a turning on the ladder and heading upwards once again.
I see no ladder in scripture.....but I do see better days coming. We have been involved in the greatest object lesson we will ever have to endure. How else could God demonstrate how hopeless we were at independently ruling ourselves if he did not allow us to experience the end result first hand? Look where we are....! :eek:

That was the issue in Eden.....'we can do better without God and his laws'....and you will not die. They couldn't be told, so they had to be shown. No one has ever done better without God, and every human since Adam has died.

No one will be able to say that God didn't give humans a fair go at trying all kinds of rulership.....we are presently seeing democracy going down the tubes as another failed system....soon to be replace by a totalitarian dictatorship where all the world's governments will unite under one banner. It will not be pretty...but it is the last one before God brings the curtain down on this world under satan's dominion. (1 John 5:19) In the days of the present rulers God will act, according to Daniel's prophesies. (Daniel 2:44)

There are 3 catagories or stations, like elevations or steps... the world, angels, and men.
The world would be the low rung on the ladder. The basest of humanity. Angels would be the servants or helpers to the world to climb up to the next level, where those in the world would progress and become angels. And then there are men. Man having achieved the prize. Having run the race and overcome the flesh and all it's obstacles.
But the Bible says that men are as beasts. They are no better and no worse than the world in which they rose from. They forget from whence they came. They become prideful and selfrighteous and end up back in prison, in the flesh, only to be humbled once again.

World without end.
I am grateful that the cycle will be broken and never have to be endured again. There is no reincarnation in the Bible. This is not the life we have programmed in our hearts....we know that life should be filled with joy and love, not sadness and hatred. How would life be a gift it the this awful cycle was perpetuated. God designed the earth for life and it was to be a beautiful journey of discovery for all of his human children. Look how long it took us to get here at this level of intelligence and education....but look at what we have done with it!
How much more is there still to learn, but in a peaceful way that benefits all? Wouldn't it be wonderful to have forever to find out? God says that all the things that cause us heartache will be no more once his Kingdom is established over the earth. (Revelation 21:2-4)

If we believe, and have faith, and take up our cross, our worldly desires, our old man, and crucify that way of living, and if we overcome the world, then I think it's possible that is the next life we become as the angels in heaven, the servants, the helpers, the ministers. And yet still tempted by earthy desires. As was the case of the sons of God who saw the daughters of men, and took of them who they chose. They began descending down the ladder once again.
There is no need, because the next life is really a continuation of this one....only without all the trauma that makes this life not worth living.
God tells us that the earth will be cleansed of all wickedness and those who practice it. There is nothing wrong with the earth itself, but it has yet to realize its purpose and so do we. It won't be the end....but a new beginning. (2 Peter 3:13) Something to look forward to.

My thoughts are like a many layered onion.
Sometimes the onion is sweet and sometimes it makes me cry.
There is no core to this onion and there is no outer layer.
Or if there is, I havent found the beginning or the ending of all the layers of my thoughts.
I hope you can put all the pieces together Ziggy because it makes for one heck of a story. :) What God starts...he finishes. (Isaiah 55:11) I am soooo looking forward to what is over the horizon....;)
 
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Ziggy

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I am grateful that the cycle will be broken and never have to be endured again.

I like the way you think. :D

Everything in Genesis can be found in the gospel.
Even the dust of the earth in which Adam was formed.
Because those who are called and chosen are brought together into one body. One temple.

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
This is here:
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
This is here:
Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Now this is where it gets interesting..
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

We know the tree of life is Jesus, but what is this tree of knowledge of good and evil?
If knowledge of good and evil is contained in the law, then my first assumption would be John the Baptist.
Both Jesus and John were set in this place and time by divine intervention. Mary and Elizabeth.

The only tree forbidden to Adam was this tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
again here:
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
NLT: You will be accepted if you do what is right. But if you refuse to do what is right, then watch out! Sin is crouching at the door, eager to control you. But you must subdue it and be its master.”

You must subdue it and be it's master..

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

John's ministry like Moses' ministry were beginning to decrease, as a new age of grace was being ushered in.
That is why Cain was thrust out from the presence of the Lord.
Cain received a mark in his forehead that any finding him and killing him would be revenged upon.
John was beheaded. Who beheaded him?
Mar 6:16 But when Herod heard thereof, he said, It is John, whom I beheaded: he is risen from the dead.
Mar 6:17 For Herod himself had sent forth and laid hold upon John, and bound him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife: for he had married her.
Mar 6:18 For John had said unto Herod, It is not lawful for thee to have thy brother's wife.

Definately the law comes into play here. It was because of the law that Herod had John beheaded.
The days of Moses law was over.
I say Moses' law because this ruling wasn't made until the days of Moses. It didn't exist prior to his ministry. or did it?

One has to wonder then, what became of Cain?
We know he went east of eden and found himself a wife. somewhere.. amongst the trees..
We are given the assumption it was Lamech who killed him from his wording of being forgiven seven times seventy seven.
Gen 4:23 And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.
Gen 4:24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.

which is also here:

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

So from this, I assume that Cain possibly told Lamech. One wife, not two. As was the case of Herod. It is not lawful for thee to have thy brother's wife.
Or else Cain chose one of Lamech's wives for himself.

Cain had immediately fallen from grace when he killed his brother.
Somewhere between the law and grace something happened between John and Jesus.
John knew and recognized Jesus as the lamb of God. And he baptised him.
And yet John questioned his authority.

Luk 7:18 And the disciples of John shewed him of all these things.
Luk 7:19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
Luk 7:20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

This argument that Cain and Abel had in the field. Enough jealousy to provoke Cain to kill him.
Killing doesn't have to be a physical action, it can also have a spiritual reaction.
Even still today there is this battle going on between law and grace.
And yet it was those who were under the law and controlled by it, that slew the bearer of grace.
Was Jesus wounded by John's words? By his questioning who he was?

At 2am these are the thoughts that I wrestle with.
I see the similarities throughout the whole bible. Comparing old and new.
Doesn't mean I'm right or wrong..
just contemplating.

The church body has to eventually come to some agreement whether we are still under the law or we are under grace.
Until such a time, like Cain and Abel, we will be wrestling each other to the death.

When Adam and Eve took of the tree, they placed themselves under the law, and sin had dominion over them.
Jesus is the tree of life. And the only way to eat that fruit is to let the fig tree whither and die.
That fig tree is the old man living in sin under the law, which must whither away.

Mat 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

just thinking...
Hugs
 
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