Tribulation Saints? A Contradiction

Yes!! After the rapture millions will see their great error and choose to become believers.

Davy said:

Since the Pre-trib Rapture theory teaches that the Church is raptured out PRIOR to the time of "great tribulation", then WHY do they teach those "saints" Jesus showed going through... the tribulation not raptured PRIOR also???

Do you not see that idea as a direct conflict with the written Scripture? You should, because their saying such a thing is just a pure LIE. If ANY of the "saints" are shown going through the great tribulation, then that means we ALL go through it.

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Not a contradiction - people get saved after the rapture. the two witnesses will be preaching, 144,000 Jewish evangelists from the ten tribes will be preaching.

Those saved after the mid trib rapture, will become the tribulation church.

Davy said:

Did you know brethren, that the false Pre-tribulational Rapture theory wrongly teaches that Jews left-behind that miss the rapture, but come to believe on Jesus, are "tribulation saints"? Of course that phrase is nowhere written in God's Word; the Pre-trib Rapture school just made that phrase up.

They also falsely apply... that "tribulation saints" idea to Christ's very elect that Jesus was pointing to in His Olivet discourse He gave while upon the Mount of Olives! Why?

The reason the Pre-trib Rapture doctors came up with that idea, is because of how God's Word shows Christ's saints GO THROUGH THE GREAT TRIBULATION!

Who doesn't see a problem with that theory? I do. Why?

Because since when are those called "saints" in God's Word NOT members of Christ's Church?

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Rev. 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, AND with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Now, who are the Saints in this verse brother Davy? And who are the Martyrs of Jesus? Why did God give this to Jesus, who gave it to John in this manner? Because he is pointing out the Jewish Saints AND the Martyrs of Jesus Christ, on both sides of the cross Harlot Religions killed the Jewish Saints/Prophets AND the Martyrs of Jesus.

In Seal #5 those under the Altar are Martyrs, only the Christian Gentiles who come to Jesus after the Rapture are not protected, this is why 5 miss the wedding (half the church) and Jesus says there will thus be weeping and gnashing of teeth for them. They will be Martyred or live through God's Wrath all because they didn't have the holy spirit in their lives when Jesus returned. The Jews who repent are protected in the Wilderness, but the other 2/3 will be killed as Zechariah 13:8-9 says, they will be CUT-OFF. They are still called Saints of God, just as Daniel called them, all Jews are Saints just like all drinks are cokes. Israel are the Saints of God, just like the Original Covenant of THE PROMISE is now known as the New Covenant. What we have come to call Saints, doesn't mean that is how God sees it. Words Morph. We can tell that God calls the Jews Saints because in Rev. 17 He made sure to DIFFERENTIATE between the Saints and the Martyrs of Jesus. God is the Jews Husband, Jesus is our husband.

Davy said:

Since the Pre-trib Rapture theory teaches that the Church is raptured out PRIOR to the time of "great tribulation", then WHY do they teach those "saints" Jesus showed going through... the tribulation not raptured PRIOR also???

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Read Zechariah 13:8-9, the Jews repent JUST BEFORE the Zechariah 14:1 DOTL comes. And SEE ABOVE, the Saints are a general term for the Jews also, who is in reality, ALL Israel, no tribes were ever lost, God says He saved 7000 (which means ALL tribes as in COMPLETENESS.)

Davy said:

Do you not see that idea as a direct conflict with the written Scripture? You should, because their saying such a thing is just a pure LIE. If ANY of the "saints" are shown going through the great tribulation, then that means we ALL go through it.

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Nope, we all most come unto Jesus by FAITH ALONE, on both ides of the Rapture, just like on both sides of e Cross, Daniel and Abraham came by FAITH ALONE. Paul, Peter, John, and you and I came unto Christ by FAITH ALONE. After the Rapture both the Jew and Gentile will come unto Christ BEFORE his Second Coming by FAITH ALONE !! I have the truth on my side brother, that is why it can't be defeated in debate. It actually saddens me to se a brother so lost in a defeated argument. You put so much time and effort into arguing a lost argument. Its the pride of life brother. God loves the humble who say, teach me Lord, not the proud whom He can never teach.

Davy said:

But the Pre-trib Rapture doctors have a comeback for all that. They try to say those are "tribulation saints" Jesus was pointing to in His Olivet discourse, those who only believe on Jesus once the tribulation has begun, and the main body of the Church has already been raptured! That idea of course they made up too, just to try and prop up their false Pre-trib Rapture theory.

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Jesus stated I am come ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel..........Did he not? He wouldn't even allow the 70 he sent out to go out unto any Gentiles either !! His ministry was purposely intended only for the Jews, that is why he only chose Paul after he died, don't you think Jesus/Gid could have shown up to Paul before he started his ministry on earth and got Paul to follow him? Jesus had to fulfill all the laws.

Davy said:

But they have forgotten a major revelation from Jesus' Olivet discourse about all that... they have created ANOTHER COMING by Christ that is NOWHERE written in God's Word!

This is why Pre-trib falsely says the rapture of the Church is NOT Jesus' 2nd coming. Yet the rapture of Christ's Church IS... actually a coming of Christ Jesus! No way around that.

Thus they treat the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture in Christ's Olivet discourse as if it is only about Christ's 2nd coming at the very end of this world, with His coming to rapture His Church having already happened prior to the start of the tribulation.

Yet per God's Word, THERE IS ONLY TWO COMINGS OF CHRIST written, not 3, not 4, etc.

Can you not see brethren, the pile of dung the Pre-trib Rapture school keeps piling up, just so they can keep their followers deceived away from the simple Scriptures of God's Word?

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Your anger on this should open your eyes brother. Anger is not of God.

Curtis said:

Not a contradiction - people get saved after the rapture. the two witnesses will be preaching, 144,000 Jewish evangelists from the ten tribes will be preaching.

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Show me ANYWHERE, where the 144,000 (who are really the 3-5 million Jews who repent) are shown preaching. I will eat those pages as copied by me on a copier, SMILE, if you can show me where there are 144,000 preaching evangelists. Rev. 14 says an Angel takes the Gospel unto the whole world. The two-witnesses do indeed preach repentance unto the Jews only, and get them to repent just BEFORE the DOTL that is why they are the 1335. And the Beast comes 75 days later at the 1260, AND the False Prophet takes Jesus Worship away and places the AoD at the 1290, which is 45 days after the Two-witnesses show up and 30 days before the Beast conquers Israel, this False Prophet is a Jewish High Priest influenced by the E.U. President (Beast) who is pulling string before he goes forth conquering. In other words, after the Gog and Magog Wars, Israel joins the E.U. and I think Ukraine is a precursor to that now.

The 144,000 needs PROTECTION, hold up the Winds (Judgments) until these 144,000 (3-5 million Jews who repent) are SEALED or protected in the Petra/Bozrah area, then the Judgments can fall on the Trees, Sea and Earth (Rev. 8 Asteroid). Just like the 10 Brides are all "FEMALE" but includes many, many males. The 144,000 are not all male Virgins either. We have to be able to DECODE the book of Revelation with the old testament.

Curtis said:

Those saved after the mid trib rapture, will become the tribulation church.

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Those saved during the 70th week will be Gentile Martyrs (Seal #5/Rev. 20:4) or Jewish followers of the Messiah who are protected for the 3.5 year reign of the Anti-Christ/Beast in the wilderness for 1260 days.

Ronald D Milam said:

Show me ANYWHERE, where the 144,000 (who are really the 3-5 million Jews who repent) are shown preaching. I will eat those pages as copied by me on a copier, SMILE, if you can show me where the are 144,000 preaching evangelists. Rev. 14 says an Angel takes the Gospel unto the whole world. The two-witnesses do indeed preach the the Jews and get them to repent just BEFORE the DOTL that is why they are the 1335. And the Beast comes 75 days later at the 1260, AND the False Prophet takes Jesus Worship ad places the AoD at the 1290, which is 45 days after the Two-witnesses show up and 30 days before the east conquers Israel, this False Prophet is a Jewish High Priest influenced by the E.U. President (Beast) who is pulling string before he goes forth conquering. In other words, after the Gog and Magog Wars, Israel joins the E.U. and I think Ukraine is a precursor to that now.

The 144,000 needs PROTECTION, hold up the Winds (Judgments) until these 144,000 (3-5 million Jews who repent) are protected in the Petra/Bozrah area, the the Judgments can fall on the Trees, Sea and Earth (Rev. 8 Asteroid). Just like the 10 Brides ae all "FEMALE" bit includes many, many males. The 144,000 are not all make Virgins either. We have to be able to DECODE the book of Revelation with the old testament.


Those saved during the 70th week will be Gentile Martyrs (Seal #5/Rev. 20:4) or Jewish followers of the Messiah who are protected for the 3.5 year reign of the Anti-Christ/Beast.

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I’ve heard of the new math, but what kind of math turns 144,000 into 3-5 million?

The 144,000 have nothing to do with those who flee into the desert for protection in Revelation 12.

The 144,000 are sealed and protected.

Curtis said:

I’ve heard of the new math, but what kind of math turns 144,000 into 3-5 million?

The 144,000 have nothing to do with those who flee into the desert for protection in Revelation 12.

The 144,000 are sealed and protected.

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Sorry about the spelling, I was on my last eyelid at the time. (cleaned it up...). I will give the math at the very end, but understanding why the 144,000 should be seen as the 3-5 million is very important also.

The same kind of math God gives us throughout the book of Revelation, its the bible encoded by the old testament where only we can understand it, not the World, the same reason Jesus told us he gave us parables. Why does God tell us its "The Woman" and gives us the CODE to understand it in Gen. 37:9 with Josephs dream? Because He doesn't want the Romans to understand He is speaking about Israel overcoming, because Rome had just sacked them, saying such things would have been sedition/treason for any Roman subject, and they were all Roman subjects/citizens. Likewise this is why Babylon was used instead of saying the whole world will be judged, God who knows all knew the Romans would see that and laugh/mock at their "Ignorance" seeing as how Babylon had been a desolate city for many years by that time.

So, the 144,000 is also a CODE for all Israel, but here its not a part of the Harvest, Rev. 14 is The Harvest Chapter, we see the Jews gathered into the Barn at the very end, we see a FLASHBACK to the Pre Trib Rapture from upon a cloud in verse 14, and we see the end time harvest of the wicked grapes in the in verses 17-20. Jesus shows up to where the 144,000 are, (they are really in the Petra area, but its showing Jesus showing up to save the City and the People), he is also shown as harvesting the Church from upon a cloud, but the Angel is shown thrusting in the sickle to harvest the wicked grapes.

So, the KEY is Rev. 7, and understanding the TIMING, when we see the 6 Seals opened. Only when people understand the Seals are all prophetic, and not judgment/actions do they get the timeline in full and can they see the picture God is painting fully. We see Jesus in Heaven with the Church (Rev. 4:4 and Rev. 5:9-10) and he opens the seals amidst them in Rev. 6, and these are not judgments, only after Seal #7 is the Judgments brought forth, which is why it is over in Revelation 8. (God says HOLD UP THE FOUR WNDS or Judgments in Rev. 7 for a reason).

So, in Rev. 6 we see the first 4 Horses/Seals and they all basically say this: Here is what is coming when the Wrath of God falls on mankind, the first 5 seals are all the 42 month rule of the coming Anti-Christ, the 6th Seal is the 42 month Wrath of God ( I will show later why they are parallel). God prophesies that when the DOTL comes the Anti-Christ will go forth Conquering (Seal #1) for 42 months, he will bring Wars for 42 months (Seal #2), His Wars will bring Famine for 42 months (Seal #3) and his rule over a 42 month period will bring Death/Sickness and the Grave/hades which is (Seal #4). Then we get the RESULTS which his carnage will bring to the Martyrs, not the Saints per se because they will be protected, BUT........there are Saints (Jews are called Saints in a general sort of way via the bible) who are killed by the Anti-Christ, just not the 3-5 million who repent. That is why people are confused via the word Saint, the Jews are the Saints of God as seen in general throughout the bible even though many will not make it to heaven, or even most a a matter of fact. Israel was the CALLED OUT NATION, just like now we are all CALLED OUT to serve God via the Holy Spirit. So, the RESULTS of the carnage seen are of the Martyrs seen under the Altar, who Jesus tells they MUST WAIT until their brothers are killed in like manner as they have been, or in other words, until the Anti-Christs 42 month reign is over !!

Now the 6th Seal is opened. This is Jesus Prophesying (IMHO mere days or hours ahead of the DOTL falling) about the soon to come Wrath of God, just like Joel did 2500 years earlier in Joel 2:31, both are FORETELLING about the coming Day of the Lord God's Wrath, notice they both describe the exact same thing !! The Rev. 8 Asteroid Strike which eventually brings DARKNESS in Trump #4. So, the Asteroid will strike (this is why the 7th Seal in in Rev 8), fire will fall as happens when an asteroid comes in, fire falls far and wide, the impact comes a little later, thus the 1st Trump is Fire, then we get Trump #2, THE IMPACT, then Trump #3, the FALLOUT of whatever it is that poisons that part (Pacific realm/Americas = the 1/3) of the earth) be it Sulfur, or some Nuclear type of reaction, maybe of a metal compound we have never even heard of etc. Then LASTLY we get Trump #4, the "Darkness" shown in both Joel 2:31 and in the 6th Seal Prophesy of Jesus.

CONTINUED.............

CONTINUED........

So, when one finally understands the Seals ARE NOT Judgments, they can then see the Judgments only start in Rev. 8, and thus there is a reason in Rev. 8 that God says HOLD UP the wind or judgments until we Seal the 144.000 in the head (We are sealed but the holy Spirit) and then in Rev. 14 we see they all have the name of The Father on their foreheads, (very important).

Rev. 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

So, back in Rev. 7, understanding the 1260 only comes via Rev. 8, we can then understand THE TIMING of Rev. 7 is right before the Anti-Christ pounces, thus now we can understand that the 144,000 is a CODE for All Israel who repent and then are fleeing Judea at the 1290, just before the 1260 (where the Anti-Christ conquers), because of the 1335 Two-witnesses who are sent only unto the Jews as Rev. 11 says (if you know how to dissect it).So, when the Angels are told to HOLD UP the four winds (Judgments of God) until the 144,000 (fleeing Jews) are Sealed, that simply means until they come unto the Father via Jesus, or repents, thus the Asteroid Judgment/Wrath of God will not fall until the Jews repent, Zechariah 13:8-9 shows thus the 1/3 (which is 3-5 million Jews, Israel has 10 million Jews the world as 15 million Jews) repents and the 2/3 refuse to repent and will perish, THEN....the very next verse (Zechariah 14:1) says BEHOLD the Day of the Lord has come, and we see the Anti-Christ conquers Israel/Jerusalem.

So, God is saying HOLD UP the Judgments (Asteroid impact) until we get the Jews to repent, get them SEALED in the head with the Fathers name. Then we know God PROTECTS them for 1260 days in the Petra and Bozrah area in Edom. Thus as soon as they are sealed what happens? We see the pre trib raptured Church in Heaven one last time in Rev. 7:9-17, then in Rev. 8 the 7th Seal is finally opened up, and there is a SILENCE in Heaven, Jesus doesn't need to Prophecy what is coming now, IT IS TIME for the Judgments to fall, the Angels ready to sound the Trumpets, and then God's Judgments falls, AND the Anti-Christ goes forth conquering, but why are they both parallel? Why is God's Wrath and the Beasts rule exactly parallel for 1260 days?

Because the Beast who hears Dark Sentences (from Satan as Dan. 8:23-25 says) will understand all things at the time it happens, he will be hip to what he needs to do. He knows the Gog and Magog war wipes out the armies of Russia, Turkey and Iran long before the events we are speaking of here, and that the Asteroid Impact will destroy 1/3 of this world, and I suspect Satan is far more intelligent than we are and more familiar with "God Speak" also, so he knows the 1/3 that will be destroyed will be far away from Jerusalem, thus as I suspect, it will be the Pacific Realm and the two Americas, which both just so happen to make up 1/3 of the Waters on the face of the earth AND 1/3 of the landmass on the face of the whole earth !! Hmmm, interesting !! Thus Satan tells him to wait, wait, wait, you can go forth conquering when the chaos hits, which will take out the mighty USA and leave the E.U. Armies to have at Israel and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region, in a sneak attack as the whole world tries to rally to their fellow citizens in need, this VILE BEAST POUNCES !!

So, just like the Woman in Rev. 12, God gives us another CODE for All Israel here. God uses math and numbers throughout the Old Testament, and also in the new testament to give us insight seeing as the Hebrew language had only 4000 words and no vowels. Thus 3 is God's Number, 6 is mans number, 7 is Divine Completion, 8 is New Beginnings, 10 is Completion and 12 is Fulness.

So, anything TIMED by 7 or 10 is God putting an ADDED EMPHASIS on this Completeness. We see examples throughout the old testament, but God uses this to give is codes in the book of Revelation. The 7 Churches represents the complete Church Age. The 7 Eyes and 7 Spirits represent God seeing ALL and being everywhere or omnipresent. The 10 days of tribulation Smyrna is told they will have to go through means they will have tribulation for the complete Church Age period. We have the 10 Commandments which stand in for God's COMPLETE LAWS. We have the 10 plagues in Egypt.

We have God saying He has saved Himself 7000 men, but of course when we do the math we can see that 7 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 7000, so it is just God saying He has men from all of the tribes of Israel still in the nation of Israel, no tribes were ever lost as per the SEED. If you had 20 horses in a stable and all were the SEED of Secretariet, but you had 2 of the horses out running around the track, and the stable caught fire and burned alive 18 horse, did the SEED to Secretariet vanish or is there still SEED? Of course there is still seed left in the two horses. Likewise, the Northern Kingdoms being toted off means nothing seed was still there in Jerusalem from every tribe. So, it is just God speak. How could it be 7000 AND 144,000 at the sane time? Because they both mean ALL Israel who repent.

12 (Fulness) x 12 x 10 (Completeness) x 10 x 10 = 144,000. Thus it just means ALL Israel who repents, and over in Zechariah 13:8-9 we can see that is 3-5 million Jews.

So, that is where the math comes from, but one must understand the Revelation TIMELINE in order to grasp it more clearly.

Ronald D Milam said:

Show me ANYWHERE, where the 144,000 (who are really the 3-5 million Jews who repent) are shown preaching. I will eat those pages as copied by me on a copier, SMILE, if you can show me where there are 144,000 preaching evangelists. Rev. 14 says an Angel takes the Gospel unto the whole world. The two-witnesses do indeed preach repentance unto the Jews only, and get them to repent just BEFORE the DOTL that is why they are the 1335. And the Beast comes 75 days later at the 1260, AND the False Prophet takes Jesus Worship away and places the AoD at the 1290, which is 45 days after the Two-witnesses show up and 30 days before the Beast conquers Israel, this False Prophet is a Jewish High Priest influenced by the E.U. President (Beast) who is pulling string before he goes forth conquering. In other words, after the Gog and Magog Wars, Israel joins the E.U. and I think Ukraine is a precursor to that now.

The 144,000 needs PROTECTION, hold up the Winds (Judgments) until these 144,000 (3-5 million Jews who repent) are SEALED or protected in the Petra/Bozrah area, then the Judgments can fall on the Trees, Sea and Earth (Rev. 8 Asteroid). Just like the 10 Brides are all "FEMALE" but includes many, many males. The 144,000 are not all male Virgins either. We have to be able to DECODE the book of Revelation with the old testament.


Those saved during the 70th week will be Gentile Martyrs (Seal #5/Rev. 20:4) or Jewish followers of the Messiah who are protected for the 3.5 year reign of the Anti-Christ/Beast in the wilderness for 1260 days.

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Can you show us this fuzzy math in Scripture were 144k is equal to a number range of 3 to 5 million. You do not even have a firm grasp on the exact amount. A variance of 2 million is not even 144k.

Here are two Scriptures: Matthew 13:37-38

"He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; (Jesus) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;"

And Revelation 14:4

"These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb (Jesus) whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

So Jesus is physically on the earth, after the Second Coming, and those 144k follow Jesus around wherever Jesus goes, and what is Jesus doing? Jesus is sowing the seed, that will soon be the harvest gathered by the angels.

"The enemy that sowed them is the devil (Satan); the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels."

So the Second Coming brings Christ to earth, the 144k are sealed, chosen just like the original 12 disciples, except this time way more disciples to sow the seed with Jesus at the Second Coming.

So what did the original twelve do that these 144k will not do? Are they just His entourage that observe and never get involved at all? Is that too foreign of a concept that those 144k will be Jesus sowing the seed like the original 12, were Jesus' "hands and feet" during the first coming?

Curtis said:

Those saved after the mid trib rapture, will become the tribulation church.

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Ronald D Milam said:

Those saved during the 70th week will be Gentile Martyrs (Seal #5/Rev. 20:4) or Jewish followers of the Messiah who are protected for the 3.5 year reign of the Anti-Christ/Beast in the wilderness for 1260 days.

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Those "saved" after the Second Coming will be removed from earth to wait on the sea of glass until the final harvest is over, and the 1,000 year reign starts. They are not the glorified church in Paradise. They are the firstfruits for the Millennium reign. The first generation to populate the earth over the next 1,000 years.

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

This describes the sheep, the wheat, and then those beheaded during the final 42 months if they even happen. All the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom. All those who were chosen after the Second Coming at the 6th Seal, during the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. The time called the final harvest at the "end of the world".

There are Tribulation saints because there is Tribulation Salvaiton.

It is not what you find in the "time of the Gentiles"., it is what you find in the Great Trib.

In the time of the Gentiles, God offers "the GIFT of Salvation",, and "the GIFT of Righteousess"

In the Trib, the Church is Gone, and what is left is faith + works, + enduring to the end.

Basically its this. You have to believe in Jesus, you have to keep the law, and you have to die a martyr.
That'll get you to heaven as a "Tribulation Saint".

Do you think you can handle that?
I dont think you want to find out.....so, instead...... Believe on Jesus and you shall be saved. All that call on the Name of the Lord, shall be saved.... Jesus says...>"all that believe in me, i give unto YOU, eternal life, and you shall never perish".
"faith is counted as righteousness".
"not by works but according to God's MERCY He saves us".

See that?
That is the Free Gift of Salvation, and that will NOT be offered during the Tribulation.
Take it now.
NOW.
"Now is the day of Salvation".
Open your heart of FAITH to the Lord Jesus, and God will make you His Son.
That's God's promise.

Davy said:

That just proves my point, because you revealed in the above that you DO NOT understand what those 144,000 are about.

It also shows you don't know who they are per God's Old Testament history.

Only THREE TRIBES out of that 144,000 represent Jews of the "house of Judah".

The REST OF THOSE TRIBES in that 144,000 represent the ten lost tribes of the "house of Israel".

ALL of the 144,000 are sealed with God's Seal PRIOR TO THE START OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION. How do we know that? Because in Revelation 9 we are shown that ONLY those not sealed (with God's Seal) can be stung during that "five months". That shows us WHAT that Sealing by God is FOR, i.e., to go through the "great tribulation" and NOT BE DECEIVED.

And then per the Revelation 7:9-17 Scripture, we are being shown the "great multitude" of Gentiles that are shown standing with Jesus, having been saved, having gone through the "great tribulation" and washed their robes in the Blood of The Lamb Jesus.

Thusly, what Revelation 7 is about, is CHRIST'S CHURCH of both believing Israelite and believing Gentile, that ARE SEALED WITH GOD'S SEAL in prep to go through the "great tribulation".

There is NO Scripture written about anyone converting to Christ Jesus DURING the time of "great tribulation". God's Word shows when the trib starts, the division between those who believe and those who do not (and are thus deceived), will remain... until Jesus comes and reveals the "man of sin" and destroys him. The idea that deceived Jews turn to Jesus DURING the GT is a doctrine created by the Pre-trib Rapture school.

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If you claim the above, why is the church herself not sealed during this "great tribulation"?

I think you missed the step that at the 6th Seal, the church herself was removed at the Second Coming. Now that Jesus is on earth, His 144k disciples are sealed to be His hand and feet on the ground so to speak. The 144k are not the glorified church in Paradise. Half of Revelation 7 is the 144k being sealed on earth, while the other half is the glorified church celebrating in Paradise. Now the 7th Seal is opened. The final harvest, aka, the greatest trouble ever known to man is about to commence. All who are left on earth will physically die, one way or the other. Once removed from earth they wait until the final, 7th Trumpet stops. Then a resurrection, and then the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ the Prince begins.

Davy said:

Did you know brethren, that the false Pre-tribulational Rapture theory wrongly teaches that Jews left-behind that miss the rapture, but come to believe on Jesus, are "tribulation saints"? Of course that phrase is nowhere written in God's Word; the Pre-trib Rapture school just made that phrase up.

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The phrase may not be in Scripture but THE FACT certainly is. There are several words in Christian theology not necessarily found in the Bible, yet summing up Bible truths.

Now we know that Moses and Elijah will be on earth and in Israel during the 3 1/2 year Tribulation period (Revelation 11). They will be preaching the Gospel and at the same time bringing down judgments on the wicked and ungodly. Will they be preaching primarily to the Jews? Absolutely. According to Malachi 4:5,6 here is what we read: Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

While this return is not exactly prophesied about Moses, we know that Moses and Elijah met Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration before His crucifixion. We also know from Revelation 11 that the miracles of the two "prophets" correspond to the miracles of Moses and Elijah. So it it reasonable to conclude that Moses will be with Elijah during that period of 1,260 days, after which they will be killed, then resurrected and raptured.

So as a result of their preaching many Jews will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and resist every attempt to worship the Abomination of Desolation, or to be compelled to take the Mark of the Beast. These are the Tribulation Saints.

They will be reminded of Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego, and Daniel, who resisted Nebuchadnezzar's demand that everyone worship the image he erected, and were thrown into the fiery furnace. While those saints were rescued, these saints will not be rescued from the executioner of the Antichrist, and will be beheaded. However they will be resurrected after the Second Coming of Christ and before He sets up His Millennial Kingdom (Rev 20).

Timtofly said:

If you claim the above, why is the church herself not sealed during this "great tribulation"?

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The body of Christ is with the Groom, before the Grt Trb starts.
They dont need to be "sealed", they are already "ONE with GOD", "in Christ".

Davy said:

Did you know brethren, that the false Pre-tribulational Rapture theory wrongly teaches that Jews left-behind that miss the rapture, but come to believe on Jesus, are "tribulation saints"? Of course that phrase is nowhere written in God's Word; the Pre-trib Rapture school just made that phrase up.

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Yeah but technically they are the Great Tribulation saints. The main issue is that there is zero evidence that they converted to Christ during the Great Tribulation. Everything indicates they go into the Great Tribulation already as saved Christians. It also makes them second hand Christians who weren't "good enough" to be part of the rapture or first resurrection (since Pretrib believes the rapture and resurrection takes place before the Great Tribulation). Seriously? The 144k and the two witnesses are lesser Christians than others?

GISMYS_7 said:

Yes!! After the rapture millions will see their great error and choose to become believers.

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That isn't found in the bible.

Ronald D Milam said:

So, back in Rev. 7, understanding the 1260 only comes via Rev. 8, we can then understand THE TIMING of Rev. 7 is right before the Anti-Christ pounces, thus now we can understand that the 144,000 is a CODE for All Israel who repent and then are fleeing Judea at the 1290, just before the 1260 (where the Anti-Christ conquers), because of the 1335 Two-witnesses who are sent only unto the Jews as Rev. 11 says (if you know how to dissect it).So, when the Angels are told to HOLD UP the four winds (Judgments of God) until the 144,000 (fleeing Jews) are Sealed, that simply means until they come unto the Father via Jesus, or repents, thus the Asteroid Judgment/Wrath of God will not fall until the Jews repent, Zechariah 13:8-9 shows thus the 1/3 (which is 3-5 million Jews, Israel has 10 million Jews the world as 15 million Jews) repents and the 2/3 refuse to repent and will perish, THEN....the very next verse (Zechariah 14:1) says BEHOLD the Day of the Lord has come, and we see the Anti-Christ conquers Israel/Jerusalem.

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If the 144k are sealed, they have no need to flee. They are impervious to Satan's fallen angels. Why would humans be a greater threat than angels?

Are there 15 million Jews total or 25 million? If you factor in Matthew 25:31 there is a judgment called for all the sheep to appear before their Prince in Jerusalem. Then some remain sheep, remain in the Lamb's book of life. While the goats are removed and sent to eternal Death. I think they turn to goats after they are placed on the goat side. I don't think they "walk in as goats". I think they leave as goats. Other interpretations are all over the gamut of who is who. Revelation 12 is full of symbolism. The Second Coming allows some to flee per Zechariah 14 and the OD. But no one flees nor stays hidden longer than necessary. This is the last of the chapter:

"And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

The 7th Trumpet is when Satan is cast out. This is after the final harvest, not before the 6 Trumpets nor 7 Thunders. So the final harvest is already over. The 144k would still be in Jerusalem with Jesus. The sheep already on the sea of glass in Revelation 15 waiting for the 7th Trumpet to end. So they are not literally hiding out in the desert on earth unless that is where the sea of glass is. So this fleeing is not even the time the Mount of Olives is split at the Second Coming.

The week of the celebration of the 7th Trumpet, may be cut in half, so this verse:

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

This verse can only mean the literal 144k in Jerusalem with Jesus. They did not flee into the desert, nor carried by an eagle, nor killed at that point. They are not the millions of Israel who were removed as sheep to the sea of glass. Nor protected after Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven when the 7th Trumpet started to sound. The 144k are those in Revelation 13:5-7

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Sometime during the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, in the midst of the week of days of this 7th Trumpet, the FP is given control of Jerusalem by Jesus Himself. The 144k are not killed. They then wait on mount Zion until Armageddon. This is even what Daniel 9:27 states. So we have 42 months of utter desolation. This is when the AoD is set up. The 144k "did flee". Then Satan joins the FP in "human form", not as a dragon, and they bring the beast to life.

Daniel's 70th week cannot end until the 7th Trumpet stops sounding. If Satan and the FP get 42 months, then the 7th Trumpet cannot stop sounding until the 1 hour battle of Armageddon is over. According to Revelation 11, the 2 witnesses are the only two humans representing God on earth during this 42 months. All else are waiting in Paradise, on Mount Zion, or the sea of glass. Those beheaded will join those on the sea of glass off and on for 42 months. I would say the sooner the better. But God will still allow some to make that decision up until the end, since this door of salvation is not limited to the first few weeks. Although the majority at this time will more than likely immediately receive the mark, and be removed from the Lamb's book of life. I doubt the 42 months will be shortened to bring this time to a sooner close. The 6,000 years was not shortened to 4,000 to bring Adam's punishment to a close any sooner. It is either 42 months or no time at all. I doubt those beheaded are just "of Israel". I think many will decide to reject Satan all over the earth, and take that "step of faith" by being beheaded.