Tribulation Saints? A Contradiction

Timtofly · Mar 6, 2022

Davy said:
And it MUST be always remembered brethren, those who try to shove the exact written order in your mind are allowed by God to deceive you, IF you so desire with listening to them.

This does not even make logical sense.

You claim that unless we follow your private interpretation, we are wrong.

You then claim if we accept God's Word as written, we are wrong. Then you claim those who take God at His Word are being deceived on purpose by God.

Then if we take your private interpretation, there is no room for human error as only you have the correct "Revelation from God", even if it contradicts the actual Word of God?

Timtofly · Mar 6, 2022

Behold said:
The body of Christ is with the Groom, before the Grt Trb starts.
They dont need to be "sealed", they are already "ONE with GOD", "in Christ".

The post I quoted does not hold to the church taken out until the very end at Armageddon.

They claimed the 144k are sealed, but not the church herself. The church must endure, past the point that even those beheaded are the one's resurrected, and not even the church. Who is left at the end? No one but those with the mark of the beast.

Timtofly · Mar 6, 2022

Davy said:
Like I said, and sadly, you show you don't know about God splitting old Israel into two separate kingdoms, and scattering the majority of them (i.e. the ten tribes) among the Gentiles, and The Gospel going to them also. The ten tribes were not in Jerusalem-Judea at Lord Jesus' 1st coming. Only Jews of the "house of Judah" were still there, and only a small remnant of them even. Like the ten tribes, God would scatter the majority of the "house of Judah" also after their 70 years Babylon captivity, like He did earlier to the ten tribes. Today, the majority of the scattered ten tribes, along with a good portion of the house of Judah, make up Christ's Church along with the believing Gentiles. And this was actually prophesied to happen per the Old Testament prophets, like Hosea.

So are you Jewish, hanging on old Jewish traditions maybe? Many Jews don't even believe the scattered ten tribes of Israel will even return to the holy land, even though God's Word says differently. This would account also why you don't know who all those 144,000 represent involving Christ's Church.

What in the world do people living 2000 years ago have to do with those alive and remain at this post? Who is claiming those dead since Abel are the alive and remain to be raptured at the Second Coming? They are already in Paradise. They do not need raptured. Believe it or not, they got to Paradise pre-trib. Although many were martyred coming out of great tribulation like those during the Jewish and Roman persecutions or the Spanish Inquisition. Those were times of tribulation the living church did go through and came out post trib as time marches on.

Davy said:
So bottomline, Christ's 'faithful' Church most definitely IS Sealed with God's Seal. What did Apostle Paul say that Sealing is about?

Eph 4:30
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with which ye have been sealed for [the] day of redemption.

Eph 1:12-14
12 That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In Whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory.
KJV

2 Cor 1:21-22
21 Now He Which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
KJV

I never said the church was not sealed. I was asking why you refuse to see the church is already sealed by the Cross, and already gone, and not part of the 144k who will be sealed after the Second Coming.

Davy said:
No such idea is written there on the 6th Seal. Christ gathering His Church is not taught there in Revelation 6. But, per other Scripture that does, we know He only gathers His Church on that day of His coming when His Wrath is poured out, as shown there on that 6th Seal. Likewise, with the 7th Trumpet, we also know Christ's Church is gathered when He comes on that trumpet, even though it is not specifically mentioned there. Yet we know it because by the time that all the kingdoms of this world become His, we know He had gathered us then too. And the fact on that 7th Trumpet is also when He hands out rewards to His servants, even that is a time marker for when He gathers His Church ON that 7th Trumpet. So everything aligns perfectly when we don't miss any of the parameters given in His Word about His future return on the "day of the Lord", the last day of this world.

Yes the Second Coming is at the 6th Seal as you claim. The issue is the 6th Seal happens before the 7th Seal. The 7th Seal happens before the 1st Trumpet. How can you claim the 7th Seal happens after the 1st Trumpet?

Davy said:
That idea is nowhere written. The sealing of the 144,000 is PRIOR to the "four winds" blowing. Have you ever studied about that four winds? Those four winds are being held back by the four angels. And that is definitely NOT the time of Christ's coming to gather His Church.

Of course the 144k are sealed, even before the 7th Seal is opened. The 7th Seal is opened before the 1st Trumpet sounds, so the 144k are sealed and protected during all the Trumpets and all 7 Thunders.

Davy said:
No it isn't. If the "great multitude" only represented the raptured Church, then it would mean ONLY believing Gentiles would have been raptured! What the false pre-trib rapture school is teaching you is a bunch of dung that's easy to debunk by staying in God's Word as written, and actually using one's brain.

ONLY those 'sealed' with God's Seal in their foreheads (mind) will not be subject to the Revelation 9 stinging by the locust army. What is that stinging, since they are not allowed to hurt any green thing, nor kill those NOT sealed? That stinging represents BEING DECEIVED. The Sealed CANNOT be deceived, period, which is WHY they are SEALED by The Holy Spirit! And WHO did Apostle Paul point to about that Sealing by The Holy Spirit?? Christ's faithful Church! Think!

I did not say this multitude in heaven between the 6th and 7th Seals is only those raptured. Why would any one make that nonsensical claim? I said it was the entire church from all time raptured, completed, and glorified. You don't even put the raptured saints in there. You place them in heaven after the 6 vials, years later. You have one group after the 6th Seal, and then the "living on earth group" years later.

Then you declare all views heretical except your view that splits the church into two different segments.

Timtofly · Mar 6, 2022

ewq1938 said:
Yeah but technically they are the Great Tribulation saints. The main issue is that there is zero evidence that they converted to Christ during the Great Tribulation. Everything indicates they go into the Great Tribulation already as saved Christians. It also makes them second hand Christians who weren't "good enough" to be part of the rapture or first resurrection (since Pretrib believes the rapture and resurrection takes place before the Great Tribulation). Seriously? The 144k and the two witnesses are lesser Christians than others?

Were Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob better Christians than any one else, since they came first?

Ronald D Milam · Mar 6, 2022

Timtofly said:
Can you show us this fuzzy math in Scripture were 144k is equal to a number range of 3 to 5 million. You do not even have a firm grasp on the exact amount. A variance of 2 million is not even 144k.

Oh, I most certainly have firm grasp on it. Zechariah 13:8-9 says that 1/3 of Israel will repent and God will bring them through the fire and that 2/3 will refuse to repent and will be cut-off or perish, now of course we know that 10 million Jews currently live in Israel and there are 5 million Jews living elsewhere in the world. What we don't know is if Gid is speaking about only those living in Israel at the time, thus they can flee Judea, and we cant know as times get worse how many of the 5 million will move to Israel like has been going on since 1948, so, in that light, my 3-5 million is el correcto. If things started getting bad in the USA and elsewhere, I am sure all of the Jews would return home.

The 144,000 is a CODE why is it you guys cant figure our when God uses a squared up number like this its a CODE WORD? 12 Means FULNESS and 10 means COMPLETENESS thus 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 means ALL Israel, its not even that hard to understand once someone tells you, at least it shouldn't be.

Timtofly said:
Here are two Scriptures: Matthew 13:37-38

"He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; (Jesus) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;"

I fail to see how this correlates in anyway to our discussion on the subject. Enlighten me on your point.

Timtofly said:
And Revelation 14:4

"These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb (Jesus) whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

Just as we are shown in scripture as the Bride of Christ, the 10 Virgins, and thus we are not all Female and not all Virgins, its symbolism, we are virgins in Christ, they will be virgins once they accept Christ Jesus forgiveness. They are the first-fruits of the Father, whose name is imprinted on their heads, God the Father married Israel long ago. Jacob had two brides, the preferred one in Rachel and the forced one in Leah.

Timtofly said:
So Jesus is physically on the earth, after the Second Coming, and those 144k follow Jesus around wherever Jesus goes, and what is Jesus doing? Jesus is sowing the seed, that will soon be the harvest gathered by the angels.

Yes, Jesus kingdom is David's Throne, he will rule from Jerusalem for 1000 years and these 3-5 million will be the Nation of Israel who begat kids along the way. They are harvested into the Fathers barn.

Timtofly said:
"The enemy that sowed them is the devil (Satan); the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels."

No, Jesus Harvests the Church in a Pre Trib Flashback in Rev. 14:14, go look, he alone THRUSTS IN THE SICKLE !!

Timtofly said:
So the Second Coming brings Christ to earth, the 144k are sealed, chosen just like the original 12 disciples, except this time way more disciples to sow the seed with Jesus at the Second Coming.

No, they are SEALED before the DOTL which is Gods Wrath, which begins in the middle of the week at the 1260 event. No one is CHOSEN, they chose to repent, they are the 3-5 million Jews who flee Judea. Nowhere does it say these Jews Preach, you will not show it to me because I now the bible like the back of my hand, been there, done that. It does nit exist. Its just MEN'S TRADITIONS.

Timtofly said:
So what did the original twelve do that these 144k will not do? Are they just His entourage that observe and never get involved at all? Is that too foreign of a concept that those 144k will be Jesus sowing the seed like the original 12, were Jesus' "hands and feet" during the first coming?

See how you just DODGED the facts and slowly walked them into preachers just like the 12? Now, I simply asked fir FACTS, show me anywhere tat they are shown to preach at in the bible.

ewq1938 · Mar 6, 2022

Timtofly said:
Were Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob better Christians than any one else, since they came first?

They weren't Christians. I believe they are now, having witnessed the coming of the Messiah from heaven.

Timtofly · Mar 6, 2022

ewq1938 said:
That isn't found in the bible.

I agree that after the Second Coming in the 6th Seal choice is taken away to become a Christian. Christian meaning one redeemed since Abel all the way up to the Second Coming. But since we are calling all humans Christians who are redeemed, no matter what part in history they come from, we should probably not call them Christians after the Second Coming, if they no longer have a choice to become a Christian.

The problem is no one wants to put the Second Coming prior to Christ already on earth gathering the final harvest with His angels. So when exactly does this final harvest start with Jesus, but Jesus is not actually here, but neither can people become Christians?

They actually are not Christians. They are those who rule and reign with Christ during the 1,000 year reign. They are post resurrection humans who don't even need salvation, so probably will not call themselves Christians, who had to actually make a choice in that decision.

Ironically they do follow Christ. There are just not any outside lost people pointing that out, as all follow Christ. Any who rebel will no longer be alive, but killed.

So we have two choices. The 6th Seal is the removal of the last Christians alive. No one left behind who are Christians. Since those who claim to be, but are not, are literally not, even if they say they are. Remember not all of Israel are Israel. Not all who claim to be Christians, actually are. So literally no Christians are left behind. Like any of Israel who were not actually Israel in the first century did not automatically then become Christians. Only people who made the choice were Christians. Those who just call themselves a Christian, but never choose to be a Christian are much less Christian than those of Israel who are born that way without a choice, who stop being "of Israel".

The second choice is the 6th Seal is the actual Second Coming prior to the final harvest. Thus this issue is that those still redeemed are that way because God chooses them. God chose the 144k. In Matthew 25 God chose who the sheep are. In Matthew 13, Jesus Himself is on earth sowing seed. A very strong reason why the Second Coming is before this final harvest. Jesus literally has to be here to sow that seed. Once again, God choosing who will be the wheat. So, yes choice is removed. Not because there was a rapture, and choice was taken away. Christ as Prince actually comes to earth and declares who will be His and who will not. The rapture just happened, because the Second Coming happened. So then, if there is no choice, and God is doing the choosing it actually is a time of great trouble. When God rejects you to your face, you know you are in trouble. That is the point of the 6th Seal, no?

"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne (God face to face), and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Obviously only those God chooses. All the rest will be destroyed.

Then we get past the point of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. BOOM! Now we have Revelation 13. Satan is given 42 months. Now we have two choices. God stopped choosing. God starts marking those to Death with an expiration date, 666. God is removing names still, but now with a caveat. If any so chooses to remove their head, instead of receiving the mark, they will later be resurrected, to reign with Jesus for 1,000 years. Still not a choice to become a Christian. More a choice to become beheaded. So the point being, they have been redeemed, because their names have yet to be removed. But literally having one's head chopped off, is not technically living, but literally dying. The act of beheading is not to symbolically remain in the Lamb's book of life. It is a choice to literally remain in the Lamb's book of life. How is there even a rapture at this point? The only ones left alive have the mark. Any who did choose the Atonement, no longer had their head attached to their body. Normally a rapture does not include placing one's head back onto the body, but only deals with those alive.

I am not saying the sheep and wheat were not raptured to the sea of glass. I am saying they were not raptured at the Second Coming. Because if there is no choice after, when exactly is the period that God does choose the sheep and the wheat? It certainly is not between Armageddon and the resurrection in Revelation 20:4. At that point no one is still alive.

Ronald D Milam · Mar 6, 2022

Timtofly said:
Those "saved" after the Second Coming will be removed from earth to wait on the sea of glass until the final harvest is over, and the 1,000 year reign starts. They are not the glorified church in Paradise. They are the firstfruits for the Millennium reign. The first generation to populate the earth over the next 1,000 years.

Rev. 15 is prose, we all get victory over the Beast, even in death, right? So, it could be a vision of all those 3-5 million Jews back on earth, plus the miniscule Gentile who weren't martyred since we are not protected during the 70th week, but it could also be Joh given a vision of all the Saints who overcame the Beast by both the blood and God's protection, after they repented. I never cited Rev. 15 as the Church, ANYWHERE, I understand its just prose, Rev. 7:9-17 is indeed the Church, as is Rev. 4:4 and 5:9-10.

Timtofly said:
"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

This describes the sheep, the wheat, and then those beheaded during the final 42 months if they even happen. All the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom. All those who were chosen after the Second Coming at the 6th Seal, during the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. The time called the final harvest at the "end of the world".

You are totally mixing up the three different feasts first-fruits. The Barley comes in first, the Church is the Barley. The Wheat = the Jews who grow together until the end with the wicked tares. Then the Grapes are placed in God's Wine-press of Wrath.

Ronald D Milam · Mar 6, 2022

Timtofly said:
If the 144k are sealed, they have no need to flee. They are impervious to Satan's fallen angels. Why would humans be a greater threat than angels?

You are missing THE SEAL, we are Sealed in Christ Jesus also via the Holy Spirit, its a Seal unto Life, of course they have need of protection, all we have to do is read the passage. That is the WHOLE POINT, they are not 144,000 Super Preachers who can't be touched, they are simply the Jews who repent just before the 1260 Beast Conquers Jerusalem.

Rev. 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. {{What hurts these? In Rev. 8 we see its God's Judgments}}

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God(See Rev. 14:1, they have the Fathers name sealed in the heads): and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

So, they are being specifically told, do not allow the Trumpet Judgments to hurt the Trees, Seas and Earth until these Jews have repented and start fleeing Judea, which they will know to do only because of the Two-witnesses and Matt. 24 which they had never read before the repented, of course. If ty were these SUPER BEINGS the would't God to HOLD UP the Judgments until thy were sealed. That SEALING is God calling Israel to 1.) Repent 2.) Flee Judea and 3.) Be protected for 1260 days in the mountains of Edom/Moab/Petra/Bozrah !! The Seal just means God is going to protect them, because they are now His children again.

Timtofly said:
Are there 15 million Jews total or 25 million? If you factor in Matthew 25:31 there is a judgment called for all the sheep to appear before their Prince in Jerusalem. Then some remain sheep, remain in the Lamb's book of life. While the goats are removed and sent to eternal Death. I think they turn to goats after they are placed on the goat side. I don't think they "walk in as goats". I think they leave as goats. Other interpretations are all over the gamut of who is who. Revelation 12 is full of symbolism. The Second Coming allows some to flee per Zechariah 14 and the OD. But no one flees nor stays hidden longer than necessary. This is the last of the chapter:

I have heard 15 million and 10 million in Israel, what ever it is, 1/3 will repent. The number isn't really relevant, except that 144,000 is a CODE just like the 7000 was a CODE. It simply means AL Israel who Repents, just as the Woman in Rev. 12 does. Gen. 37:9 tell us that code. I am looking more for the TIMELINES, people do not understand you can't really understand the book of Revelation and end time prophecy until you understand the TIMELINES. As per Zechariah 14, verses 1-2 is the Anti-Christ, verses 3-4 is Jesus, so the Beasts 42 month reign is not being shown in Zechariah 14 per se. It just glosses over that.

Timtofly said:
"And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Satan = the Dragon, the Woman is Israel (Gen. 37:9 says so) the nation who birthed the MALE CHILD, its not Man, that's a bad translation. God is shown as Eagles Wings many times in the bible. There God protects and nourishes Israel for 1260m days (Time, time and Half). Thus Satan must e kicked out of Heaven for at least 1260m days, which places him as being kicked out at or just before the FIRST SEAL, not the 7th Seal (Remember.....TIMIING is key). The flood is Satan's main mans (Anti-Christ) Army. But the earth opens her mouth and protects the Woman (Israel) just like it did in Egypt, via the wall of fire etc.

Satan gets angry and goes after the Remnant of her SEED (Jesus is the Seed, so says Gal. 3). Who have the TESTIMONY of Jesus, so this Remnant can't be the 2/3 who refused to repent because they wouldn't have the testimony of Jesus !! AND it can't be the 1/3 who did repent because Satan TURNED going after them because he couldn't get at them. So, these Remnant are the Remnant of the Raptured Church !! Remnant means a small part of a much larger part.

Timtofly said:
"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

No, these are the 2/3 Jews who did not repent, Jews are always Saints in the bible. We see in Rev 17 that there was blood of the Saints AND the Martyrs of Jesus Christ on the hands of the Harlot.

Timtofly said:
Sometime during the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, in the midst of the week of days of this 7th Trumpet, the FP is given control of Jerusalem by Jesus Himself. The 144k are not killed. They then wait on mount Zion until Armageddon. This is even what Daniel 9:27 states. So we have 42 months of utter desolation. This is when the AoD is set up. The 144k "did flee". Then Satan joins the FP in "human form", not as a dragon, and they bring the beast to life.

All Jesus is going to do is kill the False Prophet and cast him into hellfire.

Timtofly said:
Daniel's 70th week cannot end until the 7th Trumpet stops sounding. If Satan and the FP get 42 months, then the 7th Trumpet cannot stop sounding until the 1 hour battle of Armageddon is over. According to Revelation 11, the 2 witnesses are the only two humans representing God on earth during this 42 months. All else are waiting in Paradise, on Mount Zion, or the sea of glass. Those beheaded will join those on the sea of glass off and on for 42 months. I would say the sooner the better. But God will still allow some to make that decision up until the end, since this door of salvation is not limited to the first few weeks. Although the majority at this time will more than likely immediately receive the mark, and be removed from the Lamb's book of life. I doubt the 42 months will be shortened to bring this time to a sooner close. The 6,000 years was not shortened to 4,000 to bring Adam's punishment to a close any sooner. It is either 42 months or no time at all. I doubt those beheaded are just "of Israel". I think many will decide to reject Satan all over the earth, and take that "step of faith" by being beheaded.

The 7th Trump gives us 75 days of Plagues via the 3rd Woe which has 7 vials in it.

Timtofly · Mar 6, 2022

Ronald D Milam said:
Oh, I most certainly have firm grasp on it. Zechariah 13:8-9 says that 1/3 of Israel will repent and God will bring them through the fire and that 2/3 will refuse to repent and will be cut-off or perish, now of course we know that 10 million Jews currently live in Israel and there are 5 million Jews living elsewhere in the world. What we don't know is if Gid is speaking about only those living in Israel at the time, thus they can flee Judea, and we cant know as times get worse how many of the 5 million will move to Israel like has been going on since 1948, so, in that light, my 3-5 million is el correcto. If things started getting bad in the USA and elsewhere, I am sure all of the Jews would return home.

The 144,000 is a CODE why is it you guys cant figure our when God uses a squared up number like this its a CODE WORD? 12 Means FULNESS and 10 means COMPLETENESS thus 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 means ALL Israel, its not even that hard to understand once someone tells you, at least it shouldn't be.

Why cannot Jesus as Prince have disciples at His Second Coming?

Ronald D Milam said:
I fail to see how this correlates in anyway to our discussion on the subject. Enlighten me on your point.

Because this is an earthly ministry of Christ. Christ is quoted as being on earth in Matthew 13, Matthew 25, and Zechariah 14.

Ronald D Milam said:
Just as we are shown in scripture as the Bride of Christ, the 10 Virgins, and thus we are not all Female and not all Virgins, its symbolism, we are virgins in Christ, they will be virgins once they accept Christ Jesus forgiveness. They are the first-fruits of the Father, whose name is imprinted on their heads, God the Father married Israel long ago. Jacob had two brides, the preferred one in Rachel and the forced one in Leah.

Does it matter one way or the other? I am not trying to avoid political correctness. Nor go out of my way to inject political correctness. Besides this is avoiding the point being made entirely. It does not make them any less a group of chosen, directly by God, disciples of Jesus the Prince sitting on His throne in Jerusalem after the Second Coming.

Ronald D Milam said:
Yes, Jesus kingdom is David's Throne, he will rule from Jerusalem for 1000 years and these 3-5 million will be the Nation of Israel who begat kids along the way. They are harvested into the Fathers barn.

Actually they would be the sheep of Matthew 25. The wheat of Matthew 13 gathered into the barn would be many from all nations on earth. Remember that Egypt was mentioned by name in Zechariah 14? Also the Thunders seems an appropriate name for a wheat and tares harvest. Trumpets are calling Israel out. Then there is the time of harvest for all the nations, during the Thunders.

Ronald D Milam said:
No, Jesus Harvests the Church in a Pre Trib Flashback in Rev. 14:14, go look, he alone THRUSTS IN THE SICKLE !!

I have always claimed the Second Coming and rapture happen at the 6th Seal, before any other event after the 7th Seal. I think Revelation 14 is the same ending as Revelation 19, except there was no 42 months given to Satan, so the events in Revelation 13 never happened. The 7th Trumpet sounds for one week, then the sickle and winepress happen, then Satan is bound. We have Revelation 12, then 14, and then 20. Any events, including the 2 witnesses, of Revelation 13, 15-19 do not even happen. When the Atonement was confirmed at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, no one was found who would choose to be beheaded. Since God's plan is the redemption of mankind, not catering to Satan's whims, the point of the 42 months were only about those beheaded, and nothing else. The church is looking for the wrong ending. They should be more concerned about a golden harvest, instead of humans seeking after Satan.

Ronald D Milam said:
No, they are SEALED before the DOTL which is Gods Wrath, which begins in the middle of the week at the 1260 event. No one is CHOSEN, they chose to repent, they are the 3-5 million Jews who flee Judea. Nowhere does it say these Jews Preach, you will not show it to me because I now the bible like the back of my hand, been there, done that. It does not exist. Its just MEN'S TRADITIONS.

Show me how the sheep in Matthew 25 ever decided they were sheep. Show me in Revelation 7 that these 144k decided to choose God, and God chose them, based on that decision. Show me in Matthew 13 those tares decided they would be tares, or that wheat decided they would choose God.

I never said these 144k preached. I said they were the hands and feet of Jesus. Whatever Jesus does, they do. Also show me where the original 12 were able to say no to being God's disciples. Except we know the choice Judas made. The same choice Dan made, more than likely. Still not sure how you have so much to say about these 144k, except how they mirror the 12 original disciples at the first coming.

Ronald D Milam said:
See how you just DODGED the facts and slowly walked them into preachers just like the 12? Now, I simply asked fir FACTS, show me anywhere tat they are shown to preach at in the bible.

If the number 12 is special, why not corralate the 144k with the original 12? 12 is still the point, no? See how you dodged all my points and fixated on the word "preach"?

Timtofly · Mar 6, 2022

Ronald D Milam said:
No, these are the 2/3 Jews who did not repent, Jews are always Saints in the bible. We see in Rev 17 that there was blood of the Saints AND the Martyrs of Jesus Christ on the hands of the Harlot.

Are you not saying these are the 144k?

Those sheep who you alledge repented, are out of the picture. Only the 144k are left with Jesus.

My point was the difference between the 144k and the general sheep themselves.

No one declares the 12 disciples were not literal, but represented just the Jews who repented in the first century.

If John took the time to point out 144k from 12 tribes, it is more than "just code". God took the time to give us 4 Gospels about 12 disciples of Jesus in the first century.

He could have not mentioned the 144k at all, and just went with 33% of Israel were His chosen sheep. Why conflate the testimony back into just a general meaning, when God did specify a point?

Does the symbolism of Revelation 17 encompass the whole of time, time since the Cross, or just 42 months? Martyrdom was not mentioned in these verses:

"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

Curtis · Mar 6, 2022

Timtofly said:
Those "saved" after the Second Coming will be removed from earth to wait on the sea of glass until the final harvest is over, and the 1,000 year reign starts.

No, those in post-rapture tribulation church will be killed for refusing to take the mark of the beast, per the souls john saw in heaven in Revelation:

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Timtofly · Mar 7, 2022

Curtis said:
No, those in post-rapture tribulation church will be killed for refusing to take the mark of the beast, per the souls john saw in heaven in Revelation:

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Who is going to be left after the church is gone? They are not part of the church after that point. They live and reign on earth for 1,000 years. The church is in Paradise from the rapture on. The church comes to earth in the New Jerusalem after the 1,000 years. Why would the New Jerusalem come to earth empty?

"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

It comes down as a bride, not as a groom coming for the bride.

Ronald D Milam · Mar 7, 2022

Timtofly said:
Why cannot Jesus as Prince have disciples at His Second Coming?

Brother, that had nothing to do with the portion you copied, however, I guess it corelated to another portion somewhere, I vaguely remember that mention somewhere about Disciples.

Why does Jesus need "Disciples" in his 1000 year reign? Satan is not around to deceive the masses everyone living on this earth under Jesus will in fact be followers of Jesus, there will be no "Willful Sins" for his 1000 year reign, only sins of omission.

Jesus has all of the Martyrs who died during the 70th week, think of it, they are a testimony unto their contemporaries who are alive on earth, bit the Jews who were protected, the Gentile Christians who dodged death somehow, and maybe, just maybe the pompous people who do not believe in God whom God allows to live under his Rod of Iron Rule, I am not sure about this, but if Obama and likeminded libs were made to live under the rule they so despised, and couldn't teach their kids the ignorance they learned, that would delight me I must say. (SMILE) So, the Martyrs of the 70th week live and reign with Jesus 1000 years (Rev. 20:4)

All people on earth are Disciples of Jesus because there is no willful sin. And the 12 Disciples do indeed rule over Israel the Bible says. So, that is why your question confused me tbh.

Ohh. I may have n ow put your thought process together, you are saying the 144,000 are his "Special Disciples", but that just not the case, they have the Fathers name in their forehead in Rev. 14:1 but they are living human being, regular folks like we are now, they are just 3-5 million Jews who will be a part of the Kingdom Age. Why does anyone think there will not be a segment of Israel saved so Jesus can sit on David's throne? The 144,000 is just a code word for ALL Israel, just like 7000 that Gid said He said unto Himself is another code that means the same exact thing. Ever wonder why New Jerusalem is 144,000 cubits? That's God using numbers again to tell you it about its completion/fulness.

Timtofly said:
Because this is an earthly ministry of Christ. Christ is quoted as being on earth in Matthew 13, Matthew 25, and Zechariah 14.

Ok, he was on earth, in the two Gospels and in his Second Coming in Zechariah 14:3-4 on, but he's not in Zechariah 14:1-2, that the Anti-Christ. So, again, point out the reason for the overall question, we agree, Jesus was here in all three cases except for verse 1 and 2 in Zech. 14.

Timtofly said:
Does it matter one way or the other? I am not trying to avoid political correctness. Nor go out of my way to inject political correctness. Besides this is avoiding the point being made entirely. It does not make them any less a group of chosen, directly by God, disciples of Jesus the Prince sitting on His throne in Jerusalem after the Second Coming.

Everyone on this earth will be followers of Jesus during the 1000 years, there is no special 144,000 with special powers, they are simply a code word for those who flee Judea just as the Woman is, yes it matters so we understand what God is telling us on Rev. 7, because at that time they are n great peril, because that that time they are fleeing from evil. They are then the Jews/Israel in full whom sits in Israel and who Jesus rules over and with on David's throne. They are the people God chose His so to rule in their midst, that is indeed a great reward IMHO.

Timtofly said:
Actually they would be the sheep of Matthew 25. The wheat of Matthew 13 gathered into the barn would be many from all nations on earth. Remember that Egypt was mentioned by name in Zechariah 14? Also the Thunders seems an appropriate name for a wheat and tares harvest. Trumpets are calling Israel out. Then there is the time of harvest for all the nations, during the Thunders.

The Sheep and Wheat are the same thing, the Jews are the only ones Jesus was sent unto, so his ministry was unto them alone, his death was for the remission of sins unto all men, the sheep are the lost sheep gathered from all nations, the wheat are also Israel. God sent aul unto the Gentiles. The Wheat is Harvested AFTER the Barley (Church). Granted, those Gentiles who missed the Rapture will also be a part of the Wheat harvest if they repent, but most of them will have to die, they ae not protected. These are generalities in both cases, the wicked is only judged after the 1000 year reign. The Righteous are Judged at the Pre Trib Rapture, some are Jews, of course, they are also judged after the second coming. The Jews are in many nations. So, in general this is about Israel, Jesus did not come to preach unto the Gentiles, he barley spoke to the Samaritan woman, but did so only because of her great faith.

Timtofly said:
I have always claimed the Second Coming and rapture happen at the 6th Seal, before any other event after the 7th Seal.

The Seals DO NOTHING, one will always be off kilter on the TIMELINES until they understand this. The Second Coming is at the 7th Vial, in Rev. 16:19, where Jesus lands and the mountain and it splits into. Then he places Babylon the Great (the wicked of the Whole World) in the Wine-press of God's Wrath. So, why would anyone think Jesus returns at the 6th Seal? You problem is you take a PROPHECY that says the same thing as Joel 2:31, you see the Earthquake and Darkness and tie it unto the very end, its not, its speaking of the coming Wrath of God via the first four trumps, which are all ONE ASTEROID IMPACT, then comes the 5th Trump (Woe #1) the 6th Trump (Woe #2) and the 7th Trump (Woe #3) which is the the 7 Vials all wrapped up in the LAST WOE which ends it all

CONTINUED................

Ronald D Milam · Mar 7, 2022

Timtofly said:
I think Revelation 14 is the same ending as Revelation 19, except there was no 42 months given to Satan, so the events in Revelation 13 never happened.

You are on the right track here, listen, I have never seen anyone who completely gets the TIMELINES, I do, God blessed me with this, once you get it, its easy, but only God it seems can reveal the timing. I studied for years and never saw it, then in the last 5 years God has blessed me, all because I started ASKING Him to tell me His truths and put off MEN'S TRADITIONS which were blocking me from learning God's truths.

So, Rev. 11 (7th Trump IS the 3rd Woe), Rev, 14, the Wine-press of God's Wrath, Rev. 16:19 again the Wine-press of God's Wrath, and Rev. 19, Armageddon, all four are are the exact same ending, because the book of Revelation is not in Chronological Order.

The Revelation TIMELINE...

Rev. 1 is all about what John and the Disciples SAW, Jesus Glory (write the things you have seen)
Rev. 2 and 3 = The Church Age (The things which ARE as in current to John's time on earth)
Rev. 4:1 is the Rapture this everything after this is the (Hereafter)as in the rest of Revelation.

Rev. 4 and 5 is the Church in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are ever opened.
Rev. 6 is Jesus opening the Seals amidst the Church, but the Seals are just Prophetic in nature.
Rev. 7 is the Jews coming unto Jesus BEFORE Judgement falls via the 7 Trumps.

The Day of the Lord/God's Wrath starts Here....AND ends Here
Rev. 8 is the start of God's Wrath, the Mountain/Asteroid falls on the earth/the A.C. goes forth.
Rev. 9 is the 1st Woe, there is 5 months of torture by Demons on those with the Mark (MOTB)
Rev. 15&16 should be one chapter, the Angels ready the Vial, in Rev. 8 we see the Angels ready the Trump to sound AND sound the first four Trumps. In Rev. 15 the Angels ready themselves to pour out the Vials of God's Wrath, then they pour them out in Rev. 16, which ends it all, we win.

The Parenthetical Citation Chapters. (All happen at the same time as Rev. 8, 9 and 16)
Rev. 10 is God revealing that after the 7 Thunders (7 Trumps) time as we know it will be no more
Rev. 11 the Two-witnesses ministry, it starts 75 days before the 1260 and ends at the 2nd Woe.
Rev. 12 and 13 both start with the Rev. 8 Asteroid (1260) and ends via the Rev. 16:19.
Rev. 14 is The Harvest Chapter, we see the Wheat (Israel) the Barley (Church who is Raptured pre trib) and Wicked grapes which is seen in Rev. 16:19. This chapter covers 7 full years.

Rev. 17 is the Harlot (All False Religion of ALL Time) who the Beast/Kings DESTROYS, there is no room for any other gods besides Beast Worship now. so she gets destroyed, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and all other religions are forbidden, including Jupiter/Zeus type worship of old. This starts in Rev. 8 and end in Rev. 16:19 with Jesus' Second Coming. (The Angels says IT IS DONE)

Rev. 18 also starts with Rev. 8 and ends with Rev. 16:19, it is Babylon (Whole World) getting judged by God's Plagues. They run from the 7 Trumps to the 7th Vial which ends the 3rd Woe.

Rev. 19 starts with the Pre Trib Rapture Church being seen in Heaven, so it runs for 7 years, just like Rev. 14, then we return with Jesus to Armageddon to defeat the Beast, just as Rev. 16:19 shows us. Only the part where Jesus casts the Anti-Christ and F.P. into Hell is REAL TIME EVENTS.

Rev. 20 = The Judgment Throne in Jesus 1000 year reign.

Rev. 21 ad 22 is the ever-after and New Jerusalem.

So, Revelation 13 did happen, but it happens at the same time as the Judgments of God in Revelation chapters 8, 9 and 15&16. The Anti-Christ ARISES when God's Wrath falls, he takes advantage of the "Chaos" to go forth conquering as the 1st Seal "Prophesies" he will do.

Timtofly said:
The 7th Trumpet sounds for one week, then the sickle and winepress happen, then Satan is bound. We have Revelation 12, then 14, and then 20. Any events, including the 2 witnesses, of Revelation 13, 15-19 do not even happen. When the Atonement was confirmed at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, no one was found who would choose to be beheaded. Since God's plan is the redemption of mankind, not catering to Satan's whims, the point of the 42 months were only about those beheaded, and nothing else. The church is looking for the wrong ending. They should be more concerned about a golden harvest, instead of humans seeking after Satan.

The 7th Trump sounds, (nowhere is it stated how long, which isn't important anyway), that is the 3rd Woe the Two-witnesses prayed down before they died. The Two-witnesses show up at the 1335, which is 75 days before the 1260 (Anti-Christ event), so they must also die 75 days before the Anti-Christ dies at the 7th Vial, thus we know the 7th Trumpet judgments lasts for 75 days. Israel ATONES before the 1st Trumpet Sounds (DOTL) as Zechariah 13:8-9 shows us.

Timtofly said:
Show me how the sheep in Matthew 25 ever decided they were sheep. Show me in Revelation 7 that these 144k decided to choose God, and God chose them, based on that decision. Show me in Matthew 13 those tares decided they would be tares, or that wheat decided they would choose God.

God calls EVERY MAN, and any man can choose BY FAITH ALONE to accept Jesus or not. This us only like in 10,000 scriptures brother. This is a basic tenet of Christendom. In Zechariah 13:8-9 we see 1/3 REPENT and 2/3 refuse to REPENT. You only hinderance is you can't grasp a CODE in a book chock full of codes. Any Christian who doesn't understand being a Christian is all about our personal choice is way off kilter. God knocks on ever mands door, else Jesus lied. Paul said God wants every man to find Salvation and that He calls every man. "God would not that any man should perish" So, it is OUR CHICE, not God choosing us, except he chooses those who come unto Christ Jesus by FAITH ALONE.

Timtofly said:
I never said these 144k preached. I said they were the hands and feet of Jesus. Whatever Jesus does, they do. Also show me where the original 12 were able to say no to being God's disciples. Except we know the choice Judas made. The same choice Dan made, more than likely. Still not sure how you have so much to say about these 144k, except how they mirror the 12 original disciples at the first coming.

Yes, but they need PROTECTION, don't they? Meaning they re mere humans, meaning they are the Jews who flee Judea. Thus we get the 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 Fulness x Completeness. Each man has FREE WILL, this is simple. Without that God s not God. The 144,000 are very simple once you understand its a CODE just like the Woman in Rev. 12.

Timtofly said:
If the number 12 is special, why not corralate the 144k with the original 12? 12 is still the point, no? See how you dodged all my points and fixated on the word "preach"?

12 Means FULNESS.

Ronald D Milam · Mar 7, 2022

Timtofly said:
Are you not saying these are the 144k?

The 144,000 are the Jews who REPENT in Zechariah 13:8-9 (the 1/3) not the 2/3 who do not REPENT, thus the 2/3 or 6-10 million who get killed are Jews also and thus in general Saints to old testament readers and unto Daniel in general.

Timtofly said:
Those sheep who you alledge repented, are out of the picture. Only the 144k are left with Jesus.

Its prose, and code, the 144,000 simply refer unto the Jews who return unto God/Jesus by faith alone just before the Anti-Christ goes forth conquering, thus they are indeed the Sheep also. You are getting to bogged down in different titles imho.

Timtofly said:
My point was the difference between the 144k and the general sheep themselves.

That is the point, they are THE SHEEP, they are the Jews who REPENT, just like The Woman is the Jews who repent AND the Sheep in Rev. 12.

Timtofly said:
No one declares the 12 disciples were not literal, but represented just the Jews who repented in the first century.

And nowhere in the bible are they TIMED by 10 either. When you see 7 (Divine Completion) or 10 it is always referring to COMPLETION, the 10 Commandments, the 10m plagues, the 7 Eyes and 7 Spirts, the 70 years timed by 7 represents God's COMPLETED Judgment against Israel, as did the first Judgment which (I just thought of this/Blessing) was 7 x 10 = 70 years.

Timtofly said:
If John took the time to point out 144k from 12 tribes, it is more than "just code". God took the time to give us 4 Gospels about 12 disciples of Jesus in the first century.

No, because God gave this to Jesus to give unto John, he's is not the Author, God is. And even the 12,000 is TIMED by 10s. We know 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 12,000. God is screaming at us, this is ALL Israel who repent. Don't let old understandings block God's truths brother. Again, 12 is FULNESS, and the Disciples were God's full plans, that is why he added in Paul. But they didn't need to be TIMED. All numbers do not need to be timed unless the number is to vast or unless God is trying to be secretive, the Disciples have come and gone, God didn't need to keep their number a secret. Thus they 12 simply represents God's FULNESS of those He needed to go forth as Disciples of Jesus his son in order to spread the gospel to the whole world.

Timtofly said:
If John took the time to point out 144k from 12 tribes, it is more than "just code". God took the time to give us 4 Gospels about 12 disciples of Jesus in the first century.

Could, but God wanted to ENCODE the Book of Revelation, to make us search out His truths and so the world seeing will not see, and hearing will not hear, thus its just like a Parable. BUT...We can search these things out because we are of God.

Timtofly said:
Does the symbolism of Revelation 17 encompass the whole of time, time since the Cross, or just 42 months? Martyrdom was not mentioned in these verses:

You cite Rev. 17, but then posted Rev. 14.

The Martyrs of Jesus are all AFTER THE CROSS. The Martyrs of the Saints are all BEFORE the Cross, save for a few Jewish Saints who may get murdered during the 70th week after they repent, and do not make it unto the Petra/Bozrah area of safety in time, for what ever reason.

Davy · Mar 7, 2022

Enoch111 said:
The phrase may not be in Scripture but THE FACT certainly is. There are several words in Christian theology not necessarily found in the Bible, yet summing up Bible truths.

Not good enough, because such an idea like "tribulation saints" MUST be written somewhere in God's Word to be true. It isn't.

Even though we are shown events of Christ's coming to end this world, without direct statements about His gathering His Church, we still know it had to happen on that "day of the Lord". Why? Because of other Scriptures where that gathering IS... written tied to the "day of the Lord".

With the "tribulation saints" idea, there's not even one Scripture that points to those; instead just the opposite, because God's Word is emphatic that the unbelieving Jews will remain blinded all the way to the day of Christ's return, which is why we are shown those Jews will wish for the hills and mountains to fall upon them, because of their shame (Luke 23). If this were not so, then we would not have even been given the Revelation 7 Chapter about the SEALING of Christ's Church, which includes the sealed Gentiles of the "great multitude". Just the FACT that the 144,000 are shown being SEALED prior, reveals they represent Christ's Church sealed by The Holy Spirit in PREP to go through... the "great tribulation".

Timtofly · Mar 7, 2022

Ronald D Milam said:
You cite Rev. 17, but then posted Rev. 14.

The Martyrs of Jesus are all AFTER THE CROSS. The Martyrs of the Saints are all BEFORE the Cross, save for a few Jewish Saints who may get murdered during the 70th week after they repent, and do not make it unto the Petra/Bozrah area of safety in time, for what ever reason.

You cited Revelation 17.

I was saying that you cannot claim Revelation 17 for the 144k. No martyrdom, no blood from your Revelation 17 reference to the harlot.

Davy · Mar 7, 2022

ewq1938 said:
Yeah but technically they are the Great Tribulation saints.

No such idea written. Revelation 7 is specifically about those of Christ's Church that are 'sealed' by The Holy Spirit in prep for the tribulation. Revelation 9 reveals the locusts are allowed to 'sting' only those NOT sealed with God's sealing. And the fact of what Jesus showed in Luke 23:27-30 that the deceived Jews will wish for the hills and mountains to, "Fall on us", because of their shame when they see Jesus coming in the clouds, that points to their remaining deceived all the way to the day of Christ's return. The end of Zechariah 12 points to the same idea, as does Revelation 1:7 also.

So just because the Pre-trib Rapture school noticed there are members of Christ's Church going through the "great tribulation" as written, that does not mean those only believe on Jesus after the trib starts. They fabricated that idea so as to support their false pre-trib rapture idea of Jesus pulling the Church out prior to the great tribulation. That is how they build dung upon dung per their doctrine. They falsely assume Christ raptures His Church prior to the tribulation, which is nowhere written, and then they apply all other events in relation to that false idea.

Davy · Mar 7, 2022

Timtofly said:
This does not even make logical sense.

It does if one reads the REST OF MY POST where you sliced and diced that one statement out of my post.

The order I was pointing to of course is about those who wrongly assume the Revelation events of the 3 sets of Seals, Trumpets, and Vial occur in the order they are written.

When I said Christ's coming is shown on the 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial, the order of events in Revelation should have been obvious what I was pointing to.

So you don't fool me one bit, for I know you cannot... change those events about the time of Christ's Wrath upon the wicked shown on that 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vials!

Rev 6:14-17
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV

Rev 11:15-18
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, "We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, Which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
KJV

Rev 16:15-20
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
KJV

Those who reject that simple timing of God's Wrath on that day, showing those events happen on the 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial, are listening to another spirit.

Tribulation Saints? A Contradiction

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