Three Questions

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

FHII

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2011
4,833
2,494
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It is my way of knowing for sure what others believe at this point in their lives.

You asked for "yes or no" reponses to questions, and you are basing an opinion of what they believe based on that, without considering a reason why they answered the way they did? I realize no one else took up your request, but don't you think that's a little presumpous?
 

RichardBurger

New Member
Jan 23, 2008
1,498
19
0
90
Southeast USA
You asked for "yes or no" reponses to questions, and you are basing an opinion of what they believe based on that, without considering a reason why they answered the way they did? I realize no one else took up your request, but don't you think that's a little presumpous?

No I don't. The questions only required a yes or no answer.

I do commend you on your courage to give a yes or no answer. You notice that few did.
 

FHII

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2011
4,833
2,494
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No I don't. The questions only required a yes or no answer.

I do commend you on your courage to give a yes or no answer. You notice that few did.

Well, whether you want my reasoning or not, I am going to give it.

1. The sole purpose for Jesus coming to the Jews (Israel) was to setup the kingdom promised to the Jews; yes or no?


The reason for my answering "yes" is one word in the question: "sole". By all means Jesus came to the Jews to set up the kingdom promised. I'll go even further and say that from their perspective, it was the sole reason. However, it wasn't the only reason from an overall perspective. He also came to be rejected by them (though not all did, the ones who needed to reject him did), so he could be crucified, which later would result in the acceptance of the gentiles.

Let me use a different account to show that. Why did Joseph's brothers sell him into slavery? Ask them, and they would say because Joseph claimed we would all bow down to him and we were angry at his prophecy. Ask Joseph and he'll say, "they meant it for bad, but God meant it for Good; I was to become an important official in Egypt and would save the world from a 7 year famine. Ask God and he'll most likely point to the rest of the Bible and note all these things were as a result... I did it so I eventually could rise from the dead.

So your answer is correct from a perspective of the Jews, but not the overall scope of things.



3. The preaching of Paul is just a continuation of what Jesus and the 12 taught; yes or no?


This is absoultely true. It was quite different in scope, but since Jesus sent Paul, and Paul spoke of Jesus, by all means it was a continuation. The OT and NT have their differences, but we still recognize the OT as a forshadowing and a schoolmaster.
 

Rach1370

New Member
Apr 17, 2010
1,801
107
0
44
Australia
Three Questions?
*please don’t preach a sermon, a yes or no answer is sufficient. If you can't say yes or no then don't reply.*

1. The sole purpose for Jesus coming to the Jews (Israel) was to setup the kingdom promised to the Jews; yes or no?

2. The ministry and teachings of Jesus was to convince the Jews that He is the Messiah: yes or no?

3. The preaching of Paul is just a continuation of what Jesus and the 12 taught; yes or no?

Hey Richard. I haven't really read all the other replies, but will still answer. Will do my best for your short answer, but I'm thinking that a simple 'yes' 'no' answer will be hard, because of how you or I may differ on meanings.

For example...question
1) assuming the 'promised kingdom' means 'by purchasing salvation for those who believe, Jesus came to allow sinners access to the Kingdom of God...something that would have been impossible without His perfect sacrifice'. And also, I would have to say that Israel was the promised people because through them salvation would come to the world...not that they were the promised people because the kingdom was promised to them and only them.

2) Yes...and also to 'bring good news'. The gospel is that because He is the Messiah, we now have hope in Him, through His sacrifice and the grace we are given if we trust in Him.

3) Yes, without the 'convincing of Messiah' part, as clearly Paul was not God!!

Hope that was short enough!!
 

RichardBurger

New Member
Jan 23, 2008
1,498
19
0
90
Southeast USA
without bloviating my answers are.


--------- 1. yes, 2: yes, 3; no -- in that order

See my reply #20

As I look at all the replies not one addresses the scriptures I gave in reply #20. It is as if they do not exist.

So let me repeat them:


Let me make it clear that Jesus Christ, “”by His own words,”” did not come to minister to the Gentiles, nor was His message "the kingdom gospel" sent to the Gentiles. He did not offer the "kingdom of heaven" TO the Gentiles. The following scriptures support my view.

Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ)
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ)
23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

If a person says that Jesus came to minister to the Gentiles they make Jesus telling a lie in the above two verses.


Paul said: Rom 15:8 (NKJ)
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

The above scriptures supports my view on questions 1 & 2.

1. The sole purpose for Jesus coming to the Jews (Israel) was to setup the kingdom promised to the Jews; Yes!

2. The ministry and teachings of Jesus was to convince the Jews that He is the Messiah, Yes!

No where in the first 4 books of the N.T. is there a reference to the gospel of God’s grace and if you believe Paul then you must agree that the gospel of grace was hidden in God until it was given to Paul. I didn’t say that, Paul did. No where in the O.T. nor the 4 gospels is the church called "His Body" nor are the words "IN CHRIST" used.

However, much is said in the following scriptures about the fact that the gospel of grace was """HIDDEN IN GOD""".

Ephesians 3:8-9
Purpose of the Mystery 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
NKJV

Colossians 1:24-27
Sacrificial Service for Christ 24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,
25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God,
26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
NKJV

Romans 16:25-26
Benediction 25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith —
NKJV

Ephesians 3:1-11
The Mystery Revealed 3 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles —
2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,
3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already,
4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),
5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:
6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.
Purpose of the Mystery 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places,
11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,
NKJV

Now for you people that want to go to other scriptures and discuss them, how about discussing the one I gave. You do know that they are in the Bible don't you. The same Bibble you say you believe.
 

FHII

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2011
4,833
2,494
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As I look at all the replies not one addresses the scriptures I gave in reply #20. It is as if they do not exist.

So let me repeat them:


Let me make it clear that Jesus Christ, “”by His own words,”” did not come to minister to the Gentiles, nor was His message "the kingdom gospel" sent to the Gentiles. He did not offer the "kingdom of heaven" TO the Gentiles. The following scriptures support my view.

Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ)
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ)
23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

If a person says that Jesus came to minister to the Gentiles they make Jesus telling a lie in the above two verses.


Paul said: Rom 15:8 (NKJ)
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

The above scriptures supports my view on questions 1 & 2.

1. The sole purpose for Jesus coming to the Jews (Israel) was to setup the kingdom promised to the Jews; Yes!

2. The ministry and teachings of Jesus was to convince the Jews that He is the Messiah, Yes!

No where in the first 4 books of the N.T. is there a reference to the gospel of God’s grace and if you believe Paul then you must agree that the gospel of grace was hidden in God until it was given to Paul. I didn’t say that, Paul did. No where in the O.T. nor the 4 gospels is the church called "His Body" nor are the words "IN CHRIST" used.

However, much is said in the following scriptures about the fact that the gospel of grace was """HIDDEN IN GOD""".

Ephesians 3:8-9
Purpose of the Mystery 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
NKJV

Colossians 1:24-27
Sacrificial Service for Christ 24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,
25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God,
26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
NKJV

Romans 16:25-26
Benediction 25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith —
NKJV

Ephesians 3:1-11
The Mystery Revealed 3 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles —
2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,
3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already,
4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),
5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:
6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.
Purpose of the Mystery 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places,
11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,
NKJV

Now for you people that want to go to other scriptures and discuss them, how about discussing the one I gave. You do know that they are in the Bible don't you. The same Bibble you say you believe.

OK. I'll bite. Richard... You really ought not to start quoting scripture and quit when things get rough for you. In post #20, you mention Matthew 10:5-7. I have nothing to argue with that verse. You are correct, and I never said otherwise. But you moved on to Chapter 15:23-24, and here are those verses:

Matthew 15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

Jesus didn't send her away. She was a Caananite, and thus a gentile, but Jesus didn't send her away. The disciples asked him to, but he simply didn't answer. He didn't send her away.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

That's the key to your line of thinking. Yes, he said that. And it get's worse. Verse 25 says that the woman worshiped him and asked him for help. Verse 26 says Jesus answered and said, "I'm not going to give my chosen's bread to a dog. She was a female and if you know what a female dog is.... Well, Jesus was basically calling her that!

So all that supports your position. But did you bother to look at what happened next? Read verses 27 and 28 and tell me that Jesus didn't minister to the gentiles! This one he did! Yes, he had mercy on one gentile... Kind of like Ruth and Rehab. Just a few exceptions to the rule... But they were exceptions. Not the only ones I can show because David had several officers in his Army were pretty high up (the elite mighty men) who weren't of Israel.

Also, wasn't their a Samaritan woman that Jesus told a great revelation to, that he never told his disciples in fullness?


You then in post number 20 wanted to talk about Romans 15:8. It says:


Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Yes, by that verse alone you are right. Nothing in any of the verses I am against. Jesus did come for the purpose of saving the house of Israel. That -- at the time -- was his only mission. He only had an interest in preaching to them, and while a few stragglers of gentiles were blessed, he didn't come (again for the moment) to save the gentiles. Your answer is correct in a mere moment of time, but not in eternity. And the verses that follow verse 8 prove that.

Romans 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy, AS IT IS WRITTEN,
And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

Rom 15:10



And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

Rom 15:11



And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.



Rom 15:12



And again, Isaiah saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.



 

thisistheendtimes

New Member
Mar 3, 2008
136
1
0
67
True understanding is not first found in a correct answer.......

...........it is FIRST FOUND in a correct question.

Richard, the only QUESTIONS I see in your opening post are....

1) yes or no?

2) yes or no?

3) yes or no?

...the rest of what you write in your OP are STATEMENTS, NOT "questions".

What you are actually doing is...

1) making a STATEMENT....

2) of YOUR own perception/understanding, and then saying...

3) either agree to it or not.

Take what I'm writing very seriously. The 'quest for truth' is done very methodically.

First, you must make sure your questions are correct/valid, accurate, clear and relevant/confined to the topic/subject you are pursuing.

THEN, you must not PLACE LIMITATIONS on the replies (such as ONLY ANSWER 'this way').......DO NOT form the 'scenario'/situation (because it will ALWAYS be a roadblock to the truth of the topic that you are pursuing)....free thought must be free, not restricted.

Closed ended answers (yes or no answers) are only good for CHOICES that involve TWO options in the question (such as "is THIS good OR is THAT good?",....either/or (a DICHOTOMY). VERY, VERY often people make a HUGE mistake by asking questions like "IS THIS GOOD?" because they never offer the second option in the question (like "is this better?"......better THAN WHAT?).

The Lord wants us to learn DISCERNMENT as a DICHOTOMY (is it GOOD or is it NOT GOOD?..."good from evil" DISTINGUISHING)....these dichotomies are called "PRINCIPLES".(Hebrews 5:12).

Then, in discussion/debate, conversation, simply STAY ON TOPIC. Don't let the discussion become personal or confrontational.

........(these are rules for debate that would likely be similar to "Roberts Rules of Order").

It seems that Jesus DID bring peace to the Jews by setting up the kingdom promised to them (I never thought of that until you mentioned it), but The Lord's PURPOSE/REASON for coming to EARTH was not for the Jews or the NON-JEWS/GENTILES (a Gentile is a NON-JEW of ANY time period in history, "gentile" does not mean "Jesus follower", it means "NOT a JEW"). The Lord's purpose in coming to earth was to bring a "sword" OF DISCERNMENT (create a CLEAR DIFFERENCE between right and wrong) so that the "TRUE worshiper" would learn to distinguish clearly between what is good....and what is NOT GOOD (EVIL).

1 Kings 3:9
"Give thy servant therefore an understanding mind to govern thy people, that I may discern between good and evil; for who is able to govern this thy great people?".
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=good+and+evil&t=RSV&sf=5

When "GOOD" changes to "EVIL", the change is CLEAR and ABRUPT (there is NO MIDDLE GROUND, "no variation or shadow").....meaning NO 'levels' of good, and no levels of BAD.....like "naughty" or "sneaky", etc....

James 1:17
"there is no variation or shadow due to change".

...this is the discerning "sword" that a Godly person will learn from God's spirit if they are a good student/listener.....(because "MY" sheep HEAR my VOICE when they LISTEN, not READ what was said two thousand years ago),....yes there are many Godly people who don't know how to read (and many in other countries who have no access to scripture or tapes of it).

Ephesians 6:17
"sword OF THE SPIRIT"....why is it thought that The Lord is always repeating Himself in different ways all throughout scripture?

We are to RIGHTLY HANDLE the "WORD OF TRUTH" (scripture), but HEAR His VOICE.

BACK THEN, we were classified as "Gentiles" because we were the UNBELIEVERS of Judaism, but today we are "neitherJew nor Greek".

Today the Jews call us "Goyim"....unbelievers.....non-Jews.

My verses are from the RSV.
 

lawrance

New Member
Mar 30, 2011
738
19
0
I think it's about what Israel means ?

It's got Nothing to do with a race really.

But it came from the Jews.

I think that anyone who believes that a Jew has some sort of position above all others is just a stupid joke as just look at the history of the fools that Jews are like how many could have the right to be called Israel in the true seance of the word. and then have a look for the true Jews ? How many are their ? about 6% i have been informed.

I think that the coming back to the home land has to do with the true 'Israel' Christians.
And as to what is happening over their now is just a worldly devilish lot of trash just being morons pushing poor people around like dictators and that has got noting to do with God at all.
 

Rach1370

New Member
Apr 17, 2010
1,801
107
0
44
Australia
Let me make it clear that Jesus Christ, “”by His own words,”” did not come to minister to the Gentiles, nor was His message "the kingdom gospel" sent to the Gentiles. He did not offer the "kingdom of heaven" TO the Gentiles. The following scriptures support my view.


No where in the first 4 books of the N.T. is there a reference to the gospel of God’s grace and if you believe Paul then you must agree that the gospel of grace was hidden in God until it was given to Paul. I didn’t say that, Paul did.

I don't think anyone doubts that the gospel came first to Israel. It came to and through Israel. But clearly we see (in Jesus' own teachings) that when (not if) Israel rejected Jesus, that the message would then spread.
As others have mentioned, Jesus ministered to those who were not Jews as well. He may have given guideline to his disciples on occasions, but Jesus himself accepted, healed and loved all. (eg...the Roman centurions servant [Luke 7:1-10], the cleansed leper [Luke 17:11-19] who was a foreigner.)

Here are some examples of Jesus teaching that the time of the Gentiles was forth coming:

Luke 14:16-24...the parable of the great banquet....("none of those men who were invited shall taste my banquet")
Luke 20:9-18.....the parable of the Wicked Tenants...("give the vineyard to others...")

Luke 24:44-47..."Then he said to then, 'Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day ruse from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.'"


Of course there is John 3:16, which was startling to the Jews, because they always thought they were the chosen of God, and Jesus here says that God so love the whole world...that whoever...He is speaking of all here, not just 'the people of God'.

Jesus clearly preaches a gospel message in John 4:1-45 to the Samaritan women, and then to the people of her village...He would have had no reason to do that if His message was not for her.

John 8:12 "...I am the light of the world...", John 12;32 "...will draw all people to myself..."

Acts 1:8 "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the end of the earth."

Acts 9:15..."for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles..."

So, clearly while the gospel came first to Israel, Jesus always had the plan the the word would spread to the whole world. I do not believe you can separate the two, they are the same goal, but necessity states it had to start somewhere. You cannot think that Jesus' plan all along was just the salvation of Israel, but after His death he changed His mind and decided Paul would do a dandy job!
 

RichardBurger

New Member
Jan 23, 2008
1,498
19
0
90
Southeast USA
I don't think anyone doubts that the gospel came first to Israel. It came to and through Israel. But clearly we see (in Jesus' own teachings) that when (not if) Israel rejected Jesus, that the message would then spread.
As others have mentioned, Jesus ministered to those who were not Jews as well. He may have given guideline to his disciples on occasions, but Jesus himself accepted, healed and loved all. (eg...the Roman centurions servant [Luke 7:1-10], the cleansed leper [Luke 17:11-19] who was a foreigner.)

Here are some examples of Jesus teaching that the time of the Gentiles was forth coming:

Luke 14:16-24...the parable of the great banquet....("none of those men who were invited shall taste my banquet")
Luke 20:9-18.....the parable of the Wicked Tenants...("give the vineyard to others...")

Luke 24:44-47..."Then he said to then, 'Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day ruse from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.'"


Of course there is John 3:16, which was startling to the Jews, because they always thought they were the chosen of God, and Jesus here says that God so love the whole world...that whoever...He is speaking of all here, not just 'the people of God'.

Jesus clearly preaches a gospel message in John 4:1-45 to the Samaritan women, and then to the people of her village...He would have had no reason to do that if His message was not for her.

John 8:12 "...I am the light of the world...", John 12;32 "...will draw all people to myself..."

Acts 1:8 "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the end of the earth."

Acts 9:15..."for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles..."

So, clearly while the gospel came first to Israel, Jesus always had the plan the the word would spread to the whole world. I do not believe you can separate the two, they are the same goal, but necessity states it had to start somewhere. You cannot think that Jesus' plan all along was just the salvation of Israel, but after His death he changed His mind and decided Paul would do a dandy job!

The only message that the scriptures indicate as spreading was the gospel that was given to Paul and it was not the gospel of the Jewish kingdom at hand. But you don't see that it was a message hidden in God and revealed to Paul. You seem to reject that idea out of hand.
 

thisistheendtimes

New Member
Mar 3, 2008
136
1
0
67
Indulge me in my madness (not 'anger', INSANITY).

Acts 26:24 "Paul, you are mad, your great learning is turning you mad".

If you seem to other people to be perfectly fit for this PHYSICAL world, then something is wrong with your spiritual beliefs.

The people in the towns that The Lord cursed had the opportunity to "SEE" the truth right before their eyes, but they did not let it become MEANINGFUL to them in their hearts and minds (even though they were completely knowledgeable from their scriptures about the promised Messiah).....they did not let their experience CHANGE THEM (drive them mad).

With all that I have ever written, I can only provide an INTELLECTUAL UNDERSTANDING, but not an INNER UNDERSTANDING. I can only make signposts that point the way to the real spiritual teacher (God Himself). But NOBODY can 'have' God as a spiritual teacher UNLESS they first FORSAKE MAN and his ways of mammon,.....BUT THAT IS NOT ALL.

NO HUMAN BEING will ever find God's truth....NOPE, EVERY person will ALWAYS be a complete failure at that BY THEIR OWN EFFORTS/MIGHT, but if God sees that you are truly, sincerely making the effort to "draw near to Him", He will come to the rescue once again, and by His own graciousness, fill the gap and "draw near to you".

Forsaking mammon is not good enough, eating of the bread of life is not good enough. All manner of believers (pastors/ministers, scholars, churchgoers) have conveniently overlooked everything that is not intellectually/pridefully understandable...INCLUDING what flowed at the cross. I'm not talking about THE BLOOD, I'm referring to THE WATER (of course some of you are VAGUELY familiar with that, 1 John 5:6).

When you FEEL SORROW (true love), water that is LIVING comes out of your eyes (where does it come from?). The Lord said that His true lovers ("True worshipers") will feel SORROW, not fake/rehearsed COMPASSION (they will be "mad" with sorrow) so that they "neither thirst" (Revelation 7:16).

A true worshiper is not the FOLLOWER TYPE of person and does not NEED (1 John 2:27) TO BE TAUGHT (yet I will always WANT/DESIRE God Himself as mine). A true worshiper will LEARN without being taught.

If God is going to "fill the gap" for you, He will first show you how to find the 'God seed' (spiritual common sense) that is buried deep inside of each human being. But it's not all finished, you must takecare to continue to FORSAKE MAMMON (you must be able to LEARN without being taught).........it is because of my deep love for Him that I will always WANT HIM to be my teacher instead of just LET "the anointing" teach me everything....."Abba Father" is truly "ABBA"/dear to me.

The bottom line is that we EACH have our own "Council of Jerusalem" (a FINAL decision to make). Are we going to go along with the Jews, disciples, and Peter in order to glorify Moses the man and his ways, or are we going to have the courage to be COMPLETELY contrary to the status quo (mammon)?.

Don't let information just be "information" and become prideful intelligence. If what you hear, see/observe makes sense to you (spiritual sense), then observe/hear in such a manner that it will CHANGE you "drive you mad"....................."so that you shall be driven mad by the sight which your eyes shall see"........Deutoronomy 28:34.

Whatever Jesus did for or with the Jews does not concern the true worshiper, let God's business be His own ("mind YOUR own affairs").

1 Thessalonian 4:11 "mind your own affairs"......(God is the SAME as He asks us to be, mind YOUR affairs, not HIS or anyone else's).

WE are not JEWS. THEIR worship was to THE CREATION FATHER, not to Jesus and the the Holy Spirit also.....

John 7:39
"for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified".

The Jews were baptized into MOSES...

1 Corinthians 10:2
"and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea".

There are no MULTIPLE baptisms....."one lord, one faith, ONE baptism" (Ephesians 4:5).

WE are NOT JEWS.

Is God right now completely convinced that you are FORSAKING MAN and his mammon ways?
 

Rach1370

New Member
Apr 17, 2010
1,801
107
0
44
Australia
The only message that the scriptures indicate as spreading was the gospel that was given to Paul and it was not the gospel of the Jewish kingdom at hand. But you don't see that it was a message hidden in God and revealed to Paul. You seem to reject that idea out of hand.

Ah...no I don't. I most certainly don't reject it out of hand. I agree that Jesus ministered first to His own race, the Jews. But the conclusions I have drawn have come straight from scripture...mainly, the ones I quoted to you. It is clear that Jesus, once He had risen again, was sending the disciples forth to other races and nations....by His own words. But even before that...in the midst of Jesus' ministry, He still gave the gospel to those who weren't Jews....the best example is John 4:1-45. The woman herself points out that she is not a Jew, why would Christ speak to her about these things? Conclusion....Jesus came to save all the lost....not just the lost Jews. So, my opinion comes straight from Jesus' own mouth....which was your point all along, yeah? That Jesus did not speak the gospel to any other than Jews? Well, sorry, obviously He did!
Oh, and by the way....I'm not attacking you or anything, as others may have. I found your questions interesting and although I disagree with you, I don't see why we can't discuss the idea with love. So please don't feel like you have to defend yourself (the idea maybe!!), because I'm really not here for an argument...just conversation about my favourite topic....Jesus!!
 

lawrance

New Member
Mar 30, 2011
738
19
0
I don't think anyone doubts that the gospel came first to Israel. It came to and through Israel. But clearly we see (in Jesus' own teachings) that when (not if) Israel rejected Jesus, that the message would then spread.
As others have mentioned, Jesus ministered to those who were not Jews as well. He may have given guideline to his disciples on occasions, but Jesus himself accepted, healed and loved all. (eg...the Roman centurions servant [Luke 7:1-10], the cleansed leper [Luke 17:11-19] who was a foreigner.)

Here are some examples of Jesus teaching that the time of the Gentiles was forth coming:

Luke 14:16-24...the parable of the great banquet....("none of those men who were invited shall taste my banquet")
Luke 20:9-18.....the parable of the Wicked Tenants...("give the vineyard to others...")

Luke 24:44-47..."Then he said to then, 'Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day ruse from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.'"


Of course there is John 3:16, which was startling to the Jews, because they always thought they were the chosen of God, and Jesus here says that God so love the whole world...that whoever...He is speaking of all here, not just 'the people of God'.

Jesus clearly preaches a gospel message in John 4:1-45 to the Samaritan women, and then to the people of her village...He would have had no reason to do that if His message was not for her.

John 8:12 "...I am the light of the world...", John 12;32 "...will draw all people to myself..."

Acts 1:8 "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the end of the earth."

Acts 9:15..."for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles..."

So, clearly while the gospel came first to Israel, Jesus always had the plan the the word would spread to the whole world. I do not believe you can separate the two, they are the same goal, but necessity states it had to start somewhere. You cannot think that Jesus' plan all along was just the salvation of Israel, but after His death he changed His mind and decided Paul would do a dandy job!


Israel never rejected Jesus, ever and never has !

Israel can't reject Jesus ! that is impossible.

Only the stupid Jews rejected Jesus and the reason why is because they are not "Israel" ?

And if you are from the tribe of israel that does not make you an Israel at all but only someone in the tribe nothing more than a just a Jew.

Jesus said to his disciples go out and seek the true Israelites and they that are not, to wipe the dust from their feet and leave from them as they are not Israel and Jesus talks of the creeps like this as having admitted being the ones who tried to reject Moses as they are the ones who worship the golden calf and it is they that push their race and position above God not to mention murdering swine ect.

People today who run around looking up to filthy Jews as something are guilty of idolatry.


These people who reside in the so called State of israel calling themselves what ever are mainly just bastards who have the audacity and hide to runaround rejecting Jesus Christ and we have Devils in our Christian Churches supporting the filthy golden calf scourge.
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I see antisemitism is alive and well......
 

Rach1370

New Member
Apr 17, 2010
1,801
107
0
44
Australia
People today who run around looking up to filthy Jews as something are guilty of idolatry.

These people who reside in the so called State of israel calling themselves what ever are mainly just bastards who have the audacity and hide to runaround rejecting Jesus Christ and we have Devils in our Christian Churches supporting the filthy golden calf scourge.

Whoa...hate much? I get people thinking that the Jews are no longer part of God's plan...I too think that that time has passed them; but as human beings they deserve decency and respect, not verbal spewing of hatred aimed at them. Yeah, they've got it totally wrong about Jesus, but that's saddening, and should not give anyone, especially someone claiming to follow Christ, a reason to come out with some seriously anti Christian sentiments.
 

RichardBurger

New Member
Jan 23, 2008
1,498
19
0
90
Southeast USA
Whoa...hate much? I get people thinking that the Jews are no longer part of God's plan...I too think that that time has passed them; but as human beings they deserve decency and respect, not verbal spewing of hatred aimed at them. Yeah, they've got it totally wrong about Jesus, but that's saddening, and should not give anyone, especially someone claiming to follow Christ, a reason to come out with some seriously anti Christian sentiments.

Some of the O.T. prophesies have not been fulfilled. Israel will be reborn after the "time of the Gentiles" has been completed.

Prophesy in the O.T. is about the nation of Isreal. There is nothing in O.T. prophesy about this age of God's grace BECAUSE IT WAS HIDE IN GOD. The book of Revelations is a continuation of God dealing with Israel after the age of the Gentiles.

If a person looks at a mountain before them in the distance and there is another mountain much taller behind it they will not be able to see what is between those mountains. O.T. prophesy did not see what is between; this age of grace.
 

jiggyfly

New Member
Nov 27, 2009
2,750
86
0
63
North Carolina
Some of the O.T. prophesies have not been fulfilled. Israel will be reborn after the "time of the Gentiles" has been completed.

Prophesy in the O.T. is about the nation of Isreal. There is nothing in O.T. prophesy about this age of God's grace BECAUSE IT WAS HIDE IN GOD. The book of Revelations is a continuation of God dealing with Israel after the age of the Gentiles.

If a person looks at a mountain before them in the distance and there is another mountain much taller behind it they will not be able to see what is between those mountains. O.T. prophesy did not see what is between; this age of grace.

Very good analogy Richard, I like it. I think there are some hints in the O.T. about this age of God's grace but it is easier to see them now, being that we are experiencing it and have the N.T. Once HolySpirit was sent He began to reveal and give understanding of what was written in the O.T. just as it is recorded in the N.T. On behalf of Israel I can also see how they could misunderstand what God was saying and miss it. But it was according to God's plan as Paul so clearly states in his many letters.
smile.gif
 

RichardBurger

New Member
Jan 23, 2008
1,498
19
0
90
Southeast USA
Israel never rejected Jesus, ever and never has !

Israel can't reject Jesus ! that is impossible.

Only the stupid Jews rejected Jesus and the reason why is because they are not "Israel" ?

And if you are from the tribe of israel that does not make you an Israel at all but only someone in the tribe nothing more than a just a Jew.

Jesus said to his disciples go out and seek the true Israelites and they that are not, to wipe the dust from their feet and leave from them as they are not Israel and Jesus talks of the creeps like this as having admitted being the ones who tried to reject Moses as they are the ones who worship the golden calf and it is they that push their race and position above God not to mention murdering swine ect.

People today who run around looking up to filthy Jews as something are guilty of idolatry.


These people who reside in the so called State of israel calling themselves what ever are mainly just bastards who have the audacity and hide to runaround rejecting Jesus Christ and we have Devils in our Christian Churches supporting the filthy golden calf scourge.

You seem to forget God's promise to Abraham. -- He said, "I will bless those that bless you and curse those that curse you." The story Jesus told of the Sheep and Goat Judgement is the separation of the Gentiles that blessed Israel and those that cursed Israel.
 

Rach1370

New Member
Apr 17, 2010
1,801
107
0
44
Australia
Some of the O.T. prophesies have not been fulfilled. Israel will be reborn after the "time of the Gentiles" has been completed.

Prophesy in the O.T. is about the nation of Isreal. There is nothing in O.T. prophesy about this age of God's grace BECAUSE IT WAS HIDE IN GOD. The book of Revelations is a continuation of God dealing with Israel after the age of the Gentiles.

If a person looks at a mountain before them in the distance and there is another mountain much taller behind it they will not be able to see what is between those mountains. O.T. prophesy did not see what is between; this age of grace.

I actually agree that Israel will finally turn to Jesus. But that is not yet, so at the moment they are just people. I find it a little hard to explain actually. There are many people today who still see the Jews as Gods chosen people, that they are special etc. I don't think this...God cut them from the tree when they rejected Jesus. So at the moment I think they are just a people going about their business. What I do think is that God is not completely done with them, one day they will be grafted back onto the tree (Rom 11). They play a big part in the end time prophecies and we can know this from two things: the Bible tells us, and because what are the odds, after all they've been through, that they are still 'a nation', back in their home land etc. I believe it is God's hand that had kept them together, has brought them back to the land and strong...He still has a plan for them.
So yeah, while I'm not one who thinks Israel is currently 'special', I do think they will have more to do. And I cannot tolerate people who hate them, like they do not deserve to continue living. Even if they had never been Gods, even if they did not still have a part to play, they still should have basic human rights. It's shameful that Christians jump on that wagon.