Do the verses Isaiah 53:4-5, Matthew 8:16-17 and James 5:14-16 mean that Christians should recover from all illness. Also, do they apply only to physical illness or is mental illness included. The reason I ask is that someone I know who is a born again, bible believing Christian has had to leave her fellowship of 7 years because after suffering for a long time with ever worsening depression, she was finally diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder. When this became known in the fellowship, she was hounded by the "shepherd" to come off her medication because he said it was of the devil. Although the above verses were not used at the time, she was accused of throwing out half of the NT because she was on medication. However, she did not come off her meds and her condition is now stabilised. This reaction to her for something that was beyond her control has made me wonder where the love of Christ is in all this. I came across the verses mentioned above when looking at a website that had connections to a local church. It stated that these verses prove that all Christians should be healed from all illness through faith. This statement raises certain questions. How much faith is enough? Does a Christian suffering from say cancer who is not healed mean that they did not have enough faith? Does a Christian suffering from a mental illness mean they do not have enough faith and is perhaps under the control of demons? Last and by no means least, if both the physical and the mental illness has a biological cause, which one gets the support and love of the fellowship? The frightening thing in all this is that the shepherd was a Christian counsellor.
"By His stripes wr are healed"
- Thread starter marchmum
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She needs consoling by her brethren in Christ.
Apostle Paul wrote this...
Gal 6:11
11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.
(KJV)
2 Cor 12:7-9
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And He said unto me, "My grace is sufficient for thee: for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
(KJV)
We should never confuse that "power of Christ" with our flesh. I think that's what Paul was pretty sure of too. Bible scholars gifted in determining one's writing style suggest Paul at times dictated to others when giving his Epistles. In Galatians 6 Paul reveals that, showing the Galatians they know it is him speaking because of the larger handwriting from Paul's poor vision.
Can God heal our flesh though? Who would doubt that? But He didn't with Paul's infirmity. That 2 Cor.12 Scripture is where some get the idea that every failing of our flesh is because of lack of Faith. Well the blind man of John 9 was blind from birth for God's purpose so that His Works would be manifest in the days of Christ's first coming. There's folks in wheel chairs that have much stronger spirits and show Faith greater than multitudes of believers that are completely healthy.
Apostle Paul wrote this...
Gal 6:11
11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.
(KJV)
2 Cor 12:7-9
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And He said unto me, "My grace is sufficient for thee: for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
(KJV)
We should never confuse that "power of Christ" with our flesh. I think that's what Paul was pretty sure of too. Bible scholars gifted in determining one's writing style suggest Paul at times dictated to others when giving his Epistles. In Galatians 6 Paul reveals that, showing the Galatians they know it is him speaking because of the larger handwriting from Paul's poor vision.
Can God heal our flesh though? Who would doubt that? But He didn't with Paul's infirmity. That 2 Cor.12 Scripture is where some get the idea that every failing of our flesh is because of lack of Faith. Well the blind man of John 9 was blind from birth for God's purpose so that His Works would be manifest in the days of Christ's first coming. There's folks in wheel chairs that have much stronger spirits and show Faith greater than multitudes of believers that are completely healthy.
goodshepard55
New Member
Hello and welcome....It is hard for some people to accept people we know have a mental illness, and the friends try to convince them to leave off medication and rely on God to heal them...It is so hard when one is not healed from any illness to lay the blame on not enough faith...I do believe the Lord stated if we have the faith of a mustard seed, which is so tiny....It has nothing to do with faith or how much or how little...God has already healed the most important part...the heart...We come to Him with a hardened heart, with His love..He melts the heart and heals the hurts.....as far as demons go, both demons and the Holy Spirit can not dwell in the same house (body)...demons might oppress, but can not posses a Holy Spirit filled believer...I do believe that your Christian counsellor needs to see a professional counsellor themselves...anyone telling another to stop meds are dangerous....and when I hear someone tell another.."You do not have enough faith, that is why you were not healed." ...well that just goes to show me a couple of things...
1 - they were not praying for their friend
2 - they did not have the belief that God will heal
3 - they do not understand the Word of God
People have the belief it is all on the person sick to pray for healing, when in fact it is our place to pray for healing and to continue to pray for healing and leave the decision up to the Lord...the Word tells us to pray in Spirit and in all things....and all times
Hey marchmum! It always saddens and troubles me when I hear of the 'health and wealth' movement. While it is very true that God sometimes miraculously heals some and gives others the benefit of being wealthy, it by no means applies to all. I know this....I have had a chronic Illness for half my life. If anything, my illness has made my faith and trust in God grow! I do not like to make sweeping statements, but those who would use their erroneous doctrines to attack and berate Christians who need their support, well, it's evil. I am aware of one 'health' pastor who, when his wife came down with cancer, instead of supporting and loving his wife through this difficult time, he publicly rejected her and left her to die alone.
Here's the thing. We are saved through Christ's sacrifice, through the gift of grace. Faith itself, we are told in scripture, is a gift from God. Should we, or others, doubt the sick have 'enough faith to heal themselves' they are basically doubting God and the strength of Jesus. Should others tell us we are lacking in faith, they are making a claim that only God Himself can know, basically they are declaring themselves our judge and that we have been found wanting in both their eyes that the eyes of God.
As far as the verses go...the James one actually refers to those who are praying over the sick person. Read it and take notice...if the faith of those praying is enough the sick person may be healed. Hasn't got a thing to do with the sick persons faith! The other verses, well...here's the thing. People believing in a 'God heals everyone who belongs to Him' doctrine, they take all the healing that Jesus does in His ministry and say 'see!'. The thing they forget, is that all the healings, the releasing of the demon possessed, the miracles...all these things were done for two reasons. To fulfil the prophecy that told of the Messiah's coming, and to prove through them that He was indeed God.
I don't believe that all who belong to this movement are evil...most love Jesus, they just long for what the leaders are telling them they are owed now they are Christians. It's a heady message, I get that. 'Now you are saved you are promised perfect health, wealth and empowerment!' The sad thing is that the Bible just doesn't teach it, and by clinging to it and rejecting all those who struggle through poverty, persecution and illness, they are saying that we just don't cut it in God's eyes, and that they are better than us. As I said...the bible doesn't teach it.
So I really feel for your young lady. I hope she found peace and love...the true things Jesus promises! We are told that Jesus loves all, that He is lord of all. Those who struggle to feed their families, those that suffer and die for Christ in other countries, those who put their trust in God to be sovereign over their lives even while horribly unwell....no. They do not lack faith!
Deuteronomy 7:15 (ESV)
[sup]15 [/sup]And the Lord will take away from you all sickness, and none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which you knew, will he inflict on you, but he will lay them on all who hate you.
Psalm 103:2-5 (ESV)
[sup]2 [/sup]Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits, [sup]3 [/sup]who forgives all your iniquity, who heals all your diseases, [sup]4 [/sup]who redeems your life from the pit, who crowns you with steadfast love and mercy, [sup]5 [/sup]who satisfies you with good so that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s.
Matthew 21:22 (ESV)
[sup]22 [/sup]And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.
1 John 3:22 (ESV)
[sup]22 [/sup]and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
[sup]15 [/sup]And the Lord will take away from you all sickness, and none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which you knew, will he inflict on you, but he will lay them on all who hate you.
Psalm 103:2-5 (ESV)
[sup]2 [/sup]Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits, [sup]3 [/sup]who forgives all your iniquity, who heals all your diseases, [sup]4 [/sup]who redeems your life from the pit, who crowns you with steadfast love and mercy, [sup]5 [/sup]who satisfies you with good so that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s.
Matthew 21:22 (ESV)
[sup]22 [/sup]And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.
1 John 3:22 (ESV)
[sup]22 [/sup]and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Sure....when we take on the mind of Christ and pray for His will to be done on Earth as it is in Heaven - we will get everything we pray for.
It's an individual thing. Those who came to Jesus believing were healed. Those who didn't believe didn't get healed.
Matthew 13:58 (ESV)
[sup]58 [/sup]And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I agree - their unbelief stopped them from taking on the mind of Christ; which stopped them from asking for God's will to be done; which stopped them from being healed.
Healing is God's will for His people. He promised it.
Psalm 103:2-4 (ESV)
[sup]2 [/sup]Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits, [sup]3 [/sup]who forgives all your iniquity, who heals all your diseases, [sup]4 [/sup]who redeems your life from the pit, who crowns you with steadfast love and mercy,
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
And only His people can take on the mind of Christ and pray for His will and be healed.
Agreed.
John 9:31 (ESV)
[sup]31 [/sup]We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him.
Robbie
New Member
Robbie
New Member
and yes... if Jesus paid the price... we don't have to pay it also... but if we don't believe... we shouldn't expect to receive anything...
So Ducky, do you then believe, that my chronic illness, that I have had for years and years, is my own fault for not having enough faith? Do you really think, hardly knowing me at all, that you can make that determination?
Let me clarify for you a bit. I have no doubt at all that God can heal me, my God is all powerful. I have prayed for healing, I have had my elders pray over me for healing. I suppose the big difference between me and the 'health' movement is this: when I pray for healing I always end it off like this...'if it be your will'. I am not demanding God heal me now because I have the magic formula right, faith+God+healing and money. I do not see God as a piñata and prayer as a stick, and if I hit God with that stick enough goodies will fall from the sky. God is sovereign, he spun the universe out with a breath, and even before then He knew that one day I would be His. I do not think He is obliged to heal me any more than I think He deliberately cause my illness and sin in this world.
So having plenty of faith in His ability to heal me, and knowing that He wants the best for me, I can only conclude that my illness can play a part for Him. And you know what? It has...I have been able to witness to lots who have pain and struggling in their lives because of it in my own. As long as I can further God's gospel on this earth, I am totally at peace with being unwell.
Here's the thing. You may say that my faith is lacking, but I don't really concern myself with this. I don't need health, or wealth. Sure, they'd be nice, but they are not necessary for my happiness. I have my Saviour, I have my salvation and know that my redemption is due to Jesus' faith, His obedience to the Father's will as He went to the cross, not my own faith. Nothing I am given by God is earned...I am a sinner and deserve hell, as do we all. It's all grace, all a gift. If God chooses to heal me, then I will praise Him. If He doesn't, then I will praise Him and do my best to use what I have to glorify Him.
Damn me if that is your belief, but it's my belief that you are wrong.
Rach, are you convinced that God promised to heal us? If so, then what is the issue here? Are you convinced that He promised to forgive our sins? How can one promise be true but not the other? Same God. He's either faithful or He's not. Does He forgive all of your sins? If He doesn't heal ALL of our diseases as He said He would, then perhaps He doesn't forgive ALL of our sins either.
Psalm 103:2-5 (ESV)
[sup]2 [/sup]Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits, [sup]3 [/sup]who forgives all your iniquity, who heals all your diseases, [sup]4 [/sup]who redeems your life from the pit, who crowns you with steadfast love and mercy, [sup]5 [/sup]who satisfies you with good so that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s.
Okay Ducky. Here's the thing. I know that when you disagree with someone, you grab on and don't let go like a dog with a bone. I will not get into a back and forth with you, so this will be my final answer here.
I may not be able to persuade you differently, but you will not sway me either. You may claim that my beliefs make a mockery out of God and His promises, but I think your claims seem to turn God into your own personal genie. "God will do ALL that you ask". Really...God is that beholden to you huh? So, you think I'm wrong, I think you're wrong. I do not mind this conclusion...you obviously interpret scripture one way, but I see those passages saying something vastly different.
But let me try and assure you on a few things, so that in future conversations on other topics we may still have peaceable discussions.
God is faithful and true and I trust in Him everything, including my health, including my very life. I trust Him to heal me, if and when He chooses to. It may be tomorrow, it may be when I stand before Him face to face. I'm okay with that. He has promised that there will come a day when He will wipe every tear from our eyes. Health is but one tiny thing that can cause us grief. So many of my brothers and sisters in Christ are suffering in many different ways today and I do not count myself more or less worthy than them.
It saddens me that you somehow see yourself as 'more' than me, that quite obviously think your faith has seen you more worthy than I. It saddens me that should you suddenly come down with cancer, your relationship with Jesus will be shaken because you suddenly believe your faith has not been enough. But as far as my relationship with Jesus goes, I do not mind if you think I'm lacking, I only care what Christ thinks, and I know that He knows I love Him.
Did you even read my post??? Doesn't sound like it.
Deuteronomy 7:15 (ESV)
[sup]15 [/sup]And the Lord will take away from you all sickness, and none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which you knew, will he inflict on you, but he will lay them on all who hate you.
goodshepard55
New Member
Awesome Rach....Your faith speaks for itself....God is in control...praying for you....I do love you Rach and the Almighty Living God....has healed the most important part of us both...our heart and filled us with His perfect love....Healing is God's alone, has nothing to do with how much faith we have....He promised healing, and He has delivered...deep within our hearts....we are His children...I am truly saddened by all who do not know Him for their hearts are hardened and broken, their lives fragmented....When we have Jesus, we need nothing more.....
Jesus healed all the physically ill who came to Him with faith. It has a lot to do with our faith.
Matthew 9:22 (ESV)
[sup]22 [/sup]Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantly the woman was made well.
Matthew 9:29-30 (ESV)
[sup]29 [/sup]Then he touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith be it done to you.” [sup]30 [/sup]And their eyes were opened.
Matthew 15:28 (ESV)
[sup]28 [/sup]Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly.
Mark 5:34 (ESV)
[sup]34 [/sup]And he said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace, and be healed of your disease.”
Mark 10:52 (ESV)
[sup]52 [/sup]And Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your faith has made you well.” And immediately he recovered his sight and followed him on the way.
This thread is about physical healing. Jesus provided it for all His people who believe in His promises. Churches are filled with those who don't believe them.
Hey Shep, thanks! I am content and safe in my relationship with my Saviour. It saddens and frustrates me that people like Ducky see themselves justified by how they read scripture to condemn my faith as weak. They know absolutely nothing of my faith, my life or my illness. They can have no idea how much I have grown towards God because I have been unwell, how much I have been able to talk to others who are suffering because of it.
I believe that God has a different plan for all us, and as He is sovereign that is His right! I am offended by those who not only tell me my illness is a stain upon me, but that they claim God must heel to their expectations. Sad. But as I said to Ducky, ultimately, I only concern myself with the opinion of Jesus. As I love Him and trust Him and feel His hand in my life, I am not troubled by those who want to call me a 'bad and lacking Christian'.
I receive all my blessing from heaven, and if Christ does not want to heal me, I will consider my illness blessing as well and do all I can to turn it towards giving glory to God.
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