The Disciple John
Active Member
Okay, but who is doing that? Certainly you don't think I am, do you?
Solomon did not treat God or Christ with contempt by his personification of Wisdom. Did he?
Mary found the tomb empty...where did Jesus body go?
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Solomon did not treat God or Christ with contempt by his personification of Wisdom. Did he?
I haven't stepped into a Baptist congregation in about 5 years, but all the ones that still exist that I attended had members that carried Bibles and pastors that preached from scripture and taught its meaning. The one that closed its doors forever had a pastor that liked puppets and stories, and rarely preached from the book, except from Malachi and about tithing when the congregation was dwindling and couldn't support his salary or church expenses.
I don't know that wisdom isn't a person or at the very least a spirit. How does God give wisdom, or as I understand it, apply scripture to life, for the asking? This is a personal exchange, not the giving of an object, but a teaching.
And for that matter, How does His Spirit teach, guide or comfort?
These are not the works of objects but of a person.
Understand, I am not a believer in 3 gods, but in One who has manifested Himself in 3 persons. I understand this in scriptural terms and can see reason why in terms of physical reality and the mathematics of special relativity, but the word of God is sufficient without deriving carnal proofs.
The Disciple John
Active Member
Do people usually carry a Bible to those sermons where people "get in the spirit", and fall down, or those faith healing tele-evangelist sessions? I don't usually see that, but I personally know of many services where many people flood there without a Bible, and do quite a lot of singing, and listen to the pastor say "the Bible says" even though he never opens a Bible.
The Disciple John
Active Member
God gives wisdom. It doesn't mean that because it comes from God, it is a person, does it. God gives knowledge and understanding.
I'm showing that it's not a logical conclusion that personifying something means that it is a person.
In other words, we can't conclude that because something is personified, it must be a person.
To take such a position, we would have to, in all honesty, apply that principle to everything else, including death.
I am sure you aware of God being a Sovereign God....and He establishes His Laws/Principles and does not change His mind....so God being all powerful could have simply punished Satan and the one third of angels that fell with him and never create mankind....thrown into an eternal bliss....so why didn't He?
I had a vision of things that explained why but I won't share here. Maybe send it to you privately...
But bottom...Adam opened a doorway that Satan entered through to deceive man and thumb his nose at God basically saying your creation is weak and pathetic....look how easily I was able to cause chaos and havoc on your Sovereignty.
So God created a plan for redemption to bring man back into a relationship with Him through Jesus...the Sacrificial Lamb of God.
And in this plan it would reverse the consequences...curses that came to man and basically go back through that same door that was opened and shut it and seal it forever.
Satan is always counterfeiting God's ways, personality, power and such...
I know this is extremely spoken as theory and it may be hard to grasp what I am trying to show you but it really is simple...when you a door you must close it....
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Yeah, that jumped out at me, too.
I heard the foundations of the Vatican start to rumble when I read that.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Uh, you're beginning to sound like my mother now, lol.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
I literally lol'd on this one.
"Uh, Miss Piggy, have you heard about the law of tithing? You see, God commanded that we..."
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
King David prophetically said: “For thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol; neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption. Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fullness of joy; in thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.” (Psalm 16:10, 11) True to this prophecy of His own inspiration, YHWH the Almighty God raised up the Messiah Jesus on the third day, Nisan 16, the day when the high priest Caiaphas at the temple offered up to YHWH God a “sheaf of the firstfruits” of the barley harvest. (Leviticus 23:9-14; 1 Corinthians 15:20, 23) True it was that the tomb in which Jesus had been put was found empty, but why was it that he was nowhere to be found by his own disciples? Why was it that during the forty days after his resurrection he would suddenly appear to them and as suddenly disappear, to prove to them that he was alive from the dead? Acts 1:1-3; John 20:1-31; Matthew 28:1-18.
The apostle Peter, to whom the resurrected Jesus appeared once privately, gives us the explanation for these materializations such as the spirit angels had made in the days of the ancient prophets. Peter says: “Christ also died for our sins once and for all. He, the just, suffered for the unjust, to bring us to God. In the body he was put to death; in the spirit he was brought to life. And in the spirit he went and made his proclamation to the imprisoned spirits.” (1 Peter 3:18, 19, 1 Corinthians 15:5; Luke 24:34) At his resurrection it was done with him as it is foretold to occur to his faithful disciples at their resurrection:
“It is sown in dishonor, it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised up in power. It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. It is even so written: ‘The first man Adam became a living soul.’ The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
“However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption. . . . For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: ‘Death is swallowed up forever.’” 1 Corinthians 15:43-45, 50-54.
“For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall certainly also be united with him in the likeness of his resurrection.” Romans 6:5.
So the Scriptural evidence proves that Jesus Christ was resurrected as a spirit Son of God in immortality and incorruption. (Acts 13:32-37) So, at his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ did not withdraw his human body as a sacrifice off God’s altar by resuming his human body. (Hebrews 10:1-10) Just as on the annual Day of Atonement the bodies of those animal victims whose blood was taken into the Most Holy for sin were disposed of, so God accepted the sacrifice of Jesus’ human nature and disposed of Jesus’ human body. We don't know how. (Hebrews 13:10-13; Leviticus 16:1-34) Although Almighty God did not resurrect his Son Jesus Christ in a human body, the resurrected Son of God did retain the value or merit of his human sacrifice, which was like the sacrificial blood that the Jewish high priest carried into the Most Holy of the temple so as to make atonement for sin.
As a spirit Son of God, Jesus Christ was able to ascend back to heaven on the fortieth day from his resurrection from the dead. A number of his faithful disciples were witnesses to that ascension. (Acts 1:1-11) Just as the Jewish high priest in the Most Holy sprinkled the Atonement blood toward the golden Ark of the Covenant, so Jesus entered into God’s heavenly presence and presented the value or merit of his perfect human sacrifice. (Hebrews 9:11-14, 24-26) Then the Most High God seated him at His own right hand as the “priest to time indefinite according to the manner of Melchizedek.” Psalm 110:1-4; Acts 2:31-36; Hebrews 5:10; 10:11-13.
The apostle Peter, to whom the resurrected Jesus appeared once privately, gives us the explanation for these materializations such as the spirit angels had made in the days of the ancient prophets. Peter says: “Christ also died for our sins once and for all. He, the just, suffered for the unjust, to bring us to God. In the body he was put to death; in the spirit he was brought to life. And in the spirit he went and made his proclamation to the imprisoned spirits.” (1 Peter 3:18, 19, 1 Corinthians 15:5; Luke 24:34) At his resurrection it was done with him as it is foretold to occur to his faithful disciples at their resurrection:
“It is sown in dishonor, it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised up in power. It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. It is even so written: ‘The first man Adam became a living soul.’ The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
“However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption. . . . For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: ‘Death is swallowed up forever.’” 1 Corinthians 15:43-45, 50-54.
“For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall certainly also be united with him in the likeness of his resurrection.” Romans 6:5.
So the Scriptural evidence proves that Jesus Christ was resurrected as a spirit Son of God in immortality and incorruption. (Acts 13:32-37) So, at his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ did not withdraw his human body as a sacrifice off God’s altar by resuming his human body. (Hebrews 10:1-10) Just as on the annual Day of Atonement the bodies of those animal victims whose blood was taken into the Most Holy for sin were disposed of, so God accepted the sacrifice of Jesus’ human nature and disposed of Jesus’ human body. We don't know how. (Hebrews 13:10-13; Leviticus 16:1-34) Although Almighty God did not resurrect his Son Jesus Christ in a human body, the resurrected Son of God did retain the value or merit of his human sacrifice, which was like the sacrificial blood that the Jewish high priest carried into the Most Holy of the temple so as to make atonement for sin.
As a spirit Son of God, Jesus Christ was able to ascend back to heaven on the fortieth day from his resurrection from the dead. A number of his faithful disciples were witnesses to that ascension. (Acts 1:1-11) Just as the Jewish high priest in the Most Holy sprinkled the Atonement blood toward the golden Ark of the Covenant, so Jesus entered into God’s heavenly presence and presented the value or merit of his perfect human sacrifice. (Hebrews 9:11-14, 24-26) Then the Most High God seated him at His own right hand as the “priest to time indefinite according to the manner of Melchizedek.” Psalm 110:1-4; Acts 2:31-36; Hebrews 5:10; 10:11-13.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
YHWH God by his Holy Spirit who is working through his Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ who in turn is working through his spiritual brothers the elect is how this was put together. I simply agree with it, put faith in YHWH God and in his arrangement of things how he is working.
.No reason to elevate the mother of our Lord? I just honor her as He does. True, that is quite elevated. In fact, up there people think that's where God should be. However elevated I put the mother of Jesus look up higher to see where I put God.
As for Moses.
In the light of the Transfiguration the Apostles could see Moses and Elijah. Elijah never experienced death. He was there with a transfigured body. Jesus was there with a transfigured body. Considering Moses, the mystery of his tomb and the dispute over his body....well it follows.
How about this. Maybe they haven't died yet because they are waiting to be witnesses for Christ and suffer martyrdom. I dunno.
Peter wrote about people who mock what they don't understand. Don't be one of them. Ignorant people scratch the surface of a subject and think they have mastered it. Intelligent people know there is much more depth and never stop being a student. If you want to understand I am able to answer questions.
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The Father is eternally knowing Himself. God knowing God. This is a Generation. A true Son. You and I can say I give you my word. I am only as good as my word. My word is of my own substance. For God this relationship of knowing and identity generates a rational divine substance. Considering all rational beings are persons God knowing God generates God. God the Father generates God the Son.
The thing is... scripture is only useful for proving a point if it means the same thing to those using it. Otherwise it only causes confusion. Reason assents to Faith. Faith and reason go hand and hand. That's the only way meaning can be agreed on. Ever notice that quoting scripture rarely or ever resolves debates between denominations? One doesn't have to have a Bible handy to know and use Scripture to articulate what it means.
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Assuming that scripture is using metaphor and simile because it isn't our experience is presumption based upon a carnal mind. If the Holy Spirit teaches you a truth about one of these "personifications" then it's reasonable to rest in that understanding. If you're reading poetic literature like the Psalms or wisdom literature like proverbs, it's reasonable to assume that some of the language is figurative. However, if you treat the entire collection of scripture in the same way, you can falsely interpret it to mean almost anything and create the most fanciful doctrines. Didn't some church authority make an argument for the number of angels that could stand on a pin?
Jesus always spoke in parables to the masses that followed Him to see the Jesus show, the healing, the miracles, the signs and wonders, but He gave a biblical reason for doing so and willingly explained things to His disciples and bluntly. His teaching about the Holy Spirit was given directly to His closest disciples, His Apostles and the women who followed and attended to Him. He taught them plainly.
And in His resurrection, He gave the instruction to make disciples of men, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I don't know the original languages of scripture, but in English the verse is given in singular form not plural, "name" not names. Why would God have us be baptized in the name of some object? What would be the point?
It seems more than a bit absurd to me, but then again I'm trapped in another pointless argument with someone who thinks Job compares men with saints in heaven because Job was a saint and apparently had mystical knowledge of what a saint is.
I can't fathom how a cultists can latch on to a single verse as a basis of doctrine and ignore all other contradictory verses as though they didn't exist. There's no sanity in it. There's no reconciliation or harmonizing of scripture to itself. What kind of god do the cults worship other than themselves?
I'm definitely getting too old for this. I spent about an hour with my old stong's Concordance and a magnifying glass searching for proofs to support what I already know to be accepted and sound doctrine, while knowing that a cultist will reject any and all proofs provided. If that isn't an exercise in futility, I don't know what is.
So, what's your justification for ignoring what scripture plainly says?
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
I made it a joke, but it was sad. I approached the man and spoke with him about his approach in the presence of his wife. His wife actually agreed with me, but he was wise in his own eyes and the remnant of his congregation was left without a place of worship or pastor. The good news is that there were more than a few Baptist congregations on the New Jersey shore and most had solid leadership, some even with councils of elders.
Read the account of the transformation upon the mount again. It's called a vision and a vision doesn't have to be literal. I don't need you or anyone else to teach me, because God teaches me by His Holy Spirit, received through prayer in an employee parking lot in Jersey city, New Jersey..No reason to elevate the mother of our Lord? I just honor her as He does. True, that is quite elevated. In fact, up there people think that's where God should be. However elevated I put the mother of Jesus look up higher to see where I put God.
As for Moses.
In the light of the Transfiguration the Apostles could see Moses and Elijah. Elijah never experienced death. He was there with a transfigured body. Jesus was there with a transfigured body. Considering Moses, the mystery of his tomb and the dispute over his body....well it follows.
How about this. Maybe they haven't died yet because they are waiting to be witnesses for Christ and suffer martyrdom. I dunno.
Peter wrote about people who mock what they don't understand. Don't be one of them. Ignorant people scratch the surface of a subject and think they have mastered it. Intelligent people know there is much more depth and never stop being a student. If you want to understand I am able to answer questions.
I'd be happy to correct you though if you'd like.
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