When Did Jesus Say He Would Return?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

goodshepard55

New Member
Feb 27, 2011
591
66
0
68
Australian
Rev. 16:

15 "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."
 

WISDOM CALLED

New Member
Nov 21, 2011
42
1
0
The New Jerusalem is NOT BUILT...


Rev 21:2-3
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God.
(KJV)


But the ORTHODOX UNBELIEVING JEWS of today, DO think to build 'a' New Jerusalem, and a new temple, in today's Jerusalem. That's what you appear to be ready for, which of course those who think 'they' can build it are living a lie.

Prophet Isaiah 'Where is the house that you will build for me?" There shall be no religious buildings in new jerusalem and nor shall it be in Israel.

The blessed one is told.

"Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your CROWN. THE ONE who is victorious I will make a PILLAR in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name. Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

The divine plan for the new holy city did indeed come from heaven from our LORD God. The LORD has chosen the land where it shall be built by hand like Isaiah said it would be.
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Prophet Isaiah 'Where is the house that you will build for me?" There shall be no religious buildings in new jerusalem and nor shall it be in Israel.

The blessed one is told.

"Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your CROWN. THE ONE who is victorious I will make a PILLAR in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name. Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

The divine plan for the new holy city did indeed come from heaven from our LORD God. The LORD has chosen the land where it shall be built by hand like Isaiah said it would be.


You've just omitted a whole lot of God's Word by that.
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
1,783
45
48
66
Tampa Bay, Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Shalom, everyone.

Edward was not entirely wrong in one sense, but I'm afraid he was somewhat misguided.

The word "aggelos" is the Greek word strictly meaning "messenger." Unfortunately, it was often transliterated instead of translated into the "English" word "angel." However, its primary meaning is a "messenger." Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) was called such a "messenger" in Matthew 11:10; Mark 1:2; and Luke 7:27:

Matt. 11:7-15
7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger (Greek: aggelos) before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

KJV

Mark 1:1-4
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger (Greek: aggelos) before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
KJV


Luke 7:24-28
24 And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
25 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in kings' courts.
26 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet.
27 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger (Greek: aggelos) before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
KJV

This includes a quotation from Malachiy 3:1:

Mal 3:1
3 Behold, I will send my messenger, (Hebrew: mal'aakhiy, also meaning "my messenger," although mal'akh is often translated "angel") and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger (Hebrew: uwmal'akh, meaning "and messenger") of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.
KJV


See what I mean? What he SHOULD have acquired from this information is that Yochanan was sent as Yeshua`s FORERUNNER, His MESSENGER! He should NOT have erred the other direction in calling Yochanan an "angel!" What we should understand from the words "mal'akh" and "aggelos" is that...
All actual angels (as beings from God's presence) are messengers, but NOT all messengers are angels!

This can help in our understanding of otherwise difficult passages, such as...

Heb 13:2
2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares
KJV


and...

1 Peter 1:10-12
10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
KJV


In both of these cases, I believe that HUMAN messengers are being talked about, not ANGELIC messengers! In fact, I believe BOTH are talking rather about PROPHETS, those who are sent by God with a message to deliver!

I believe that Heb. 13:2 alludes to the women who took in the prophets Elijah and Elisha, and I believe that 1 Peter 1:10 confirms that verse 12 is talking about the prophets.

We just need to be very careful when it comes to taking a stand on a particular, obscure passage. If at all possible, one should always approach these passages with an inquisitive mind that questions the pat answers and is willing to investigate rather than to take a dogmatic stand and then have to "eat some crow" afterwards.
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Shalom, everyone.

Edward was not entirely wrong in one sense, but I'm afraid he was somewhat misguided.

The word "aggelos" is the Greek word strictly meaning "messenger." Unfortunately, it was often transliterated instead of translated into the "English" word "angel." However, its primary meaning is a "messenger." Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) was called such a "messenger" in Matthew 11:10; Mark 1:2; and Luke 7:27:

Matt. 11:7-15
7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger (Greek: aggelos) before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

KJV

Mark 1:1-4
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger (Greek: aggelos) before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
KJV


Luke 7:24-28
24 And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
25 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in kings' courts.
26 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet.
27 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger (Greek: aggelos) before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
KJV

This includes a quotation from Malachiy 3:1:

Mal 3:1
3 Behold, I will send my messenger, (Hebrew: mal'aakhiy, also meaning "my messenger," although mal'akh is often translated "angel") and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger (Hebrew: uwmal'akh, meaning "and messenger") of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.
KJV


See what I mean? What he SHOULD have acquired from this information is that Yochanan was sent as Yeshua`s FORERUNNER, His MESSENGER! He should NOT have erred the other direction in calling Yochanan an "angel!" What we should understand from the words "mal'akh" and "aggelos" is that...
All actual angels (as beings from God's presence) are messengers, but NOT all messengers are angels!

This can help in our understanding of otherwise difficult passages, such as...

Heb 13:2
2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares
KJV


and...

1 Peter 1:10-12
10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
KJV


In both of these cases, I believe that HUMAN messengers are being talked about, not ANGELIC messengers! In fact, I believe BOTH are talking rather about PROPHETS, those who are sent by God with a message to deliver!

I believe that Heb. 13:2 alludes to the women who took in the prophets Elijah and Elisha, and I believe that 1 Peter 1:10 confirms that verse 12 is talking about the prophets.

We just need to be very careful when it comes to taking a stand on a particular, obscure passage. If at all possible, one should always approach these passages with an inquisitive mind that questions the pat answers and is willing to investigate rather than to take a dogmatic stand and then have to "eat some crow" afterwards.


Concerning the Hebrew 13:2 verse, no. But concerning the other Scripture you posted, yes.

Heb.13:2 is literally to let us know that God's angels sent to earth as messengers, or sometimes as deliverers like the two angels that went to Lot in Gen.19, that their appearance is of the image of man. With the Sodomites of Sodom in Lot's days, the two angels appeared literally as men to them. So the Heb.13:2 verse is correct that it's about heavenly angels appearing on earth.
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
1,783
45
48
66
Tampa Bay, Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Shalom, veteran.

Concerning the Hebrew 13:2 verse, no. But concerning the other Scripture you posted, yes.

Heb.13:2 is literally to let us know that God's angels sent to earth as messengers, or sometimes as deliverers like the two angels that went to Lot in Gen.19, that their appearance is of the image of man. With the Sodomites of Sodom in Lot's days, the two angels appeared literally as men to them. So the Heb.13:2 verse is correct that it's about heavenly angels appearing on earth.

This is what I mean by an "obscure passage." If you want to believe that it is about "non-physical messengers from God," go ahead. I still believe that it is talking about ANY "messengers from God," human or otherwise, and I further believe that it is more likely to entertain a human messenger from God before one entertains a non-human messenger.

It really doesn't make a difference AS LONG AS one is prepared to do either and treats such a messenger with the respect due God Himself.
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Shalom, veteran.



This is what I mean by an "obscure passage." If you want to believe that it is about "non-physical messengers from God," go ahead. I still believe that it is talking about ANY "messengers from God," human or otherwise, and I further believe that it is more likely to entertain a human messenger from God before one entertains a non-human messenger.

It really doesn't make a difference AS LONG AS one is prepared to do either and treats such a messenger with the respect due God Himself.

This statement of yours that one can go ahead and believe... whatever, is only an attempt to try and show someone is not following the Scripture. It really doesn't prove anything and only serves as speech clutter.

The Biblical facts are as I presented them. Angels from the Heavenly dimension have appeared on earth with the outward appearance of man, and that's how flesh men saw them. The example of the two angels of Genesis 18-19 that were sent to Lot in Sodom and Gomorrah is Biblical proof of this. If you want to argue against that Biblical fact in favor of some other belief, then you reveal how you're not heeding the Scriptures as written.
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
1,783
45
48
66
Tampa Bay, Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Shalom, veteran.

Well, if you want to get nasty about it, there isn't such a thing as a "Heavenly dimension!" That's a fabrication from theological imagination that should NEVER have been introduced into the thought process of a believer! All it does is REALLY mess people up!

"Heaven" simply means the "sky!" It is the earth's ATMOSPHERE, primarily! Genesis 1:1 is NOT talking about a physical realm and a spiritual realm; it is talking about a solid/liquid portion of the physical realm and the gaseous portion of the physical realm! Simply put, when the Hebrew word "shaamayim" and the Greek word "ouranos" are used in the OT and the NT, respectively, they refer to the SKY!

Someone may point out that Day 4 of Creation is the creation of the sun, moon, and stars, but that's NOT what it says! It says a "greater light" and a "lesser light!" Hebrew HAS words for the "sun" and the "moon"; they are "shemesh" and "yaareeach," respectively. So, why weren't they used in Genesis 1:14-19? The answer is simply that that is NOT what God was doing during the Creation week! He created the LIGHTS on Day 4! The electromagnetic radiation within the spectrum range, the very photonic energy, is what He created on Day 4! He wasn't going to sit around and wait for the light from distant galaxies to get here! He created the light en route! Then, almost as an after thought, He added, "He made the stars (ha-kowkhaviym = 'the round objects') also."

Matthew 16:1-4 is a GREAT place to see it in the Greek:

Matthew 16:1-4
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
KJV


Can you see it yet? I doubt it, because it wasn't translated for anyone to see it! (Why not? Who can say?) All four of the words highlighted above are the SAME GREEK WORD, OURANOS! Did He deny them a "sign from ouranos?" NO! He GAVE them a "sign from the sky!" "Red sky at night is a sailor's delight, but a red sky at morning, sailors, take warning!" However, He DID deny them a "sign of the times," except for the sign of the naviy Yonah (Jonah).

And, in the TaNaKh (the OT), it can be seen on Day 2 and Day 5 of Creation:

Verse 1 is NOT something that happened before the first day or on the first day of Creation; as is typical in Jewish literature, it is a summary of what is to follow. The actual creation of the "shaamayim" is on Day 2:

Genesis 1:6-8
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven (Shaamayim). And the evening and the morning were the second day.
KJV


The "firmament" (Hebrew: raaqiya` = "expanse") was a physical substance that could separate two other physical substances, the mayim or waters above the firmament from the mayim or waters below the firmament, an ocean of water vapor above from an ocean of liquid water below. That "firmament," that "expanse," of gases was then renamed as "Shaamayim" or the "Skies."

Further proof is found on Day 5 with the creation of the birds:

Genesis 1:20-23
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven (Hebrew: Shaamayim).
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
KJV


Thus, God created the birds to fly in the "shaamayim," in the "skies," the "atmosphere!"

By the way, the NT writers had another word to describe the area above the skies: "epouranios," meaning "of or belonging to above-the-ouranos" or "above-the-sky." This word was usually tranlated as "heavenly," although so was the Greek word "ouranios," which means "of or belonging to the ouranos," or "of or belonging to the sky."

"Epouranios" was used to describe the sun, moon, and stars in 1 Corinthians 15:40-41:

1 Corinthians 15:40-41
40 There are also celestial bodies (soomata epourania), and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial (epouranioon) is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
KJV


It is also the word used to describe the New Jerusalem in Hebrews 12:22:

Hebrews 12:22-24
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem (Ierousaleem epouranioo), and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
KJV


(Just a quick note about my transliteration scheme for Greek: I use "e" for epsilon, "ee" for eta, "o" for omicron, and "oo" for omega.)

While there may be "messengers" that are not human, such as the k'ruviym (cherubim or cherubs), mentioned 91 times in the OT, that were described as being part ox but still humanoid in shape with four faces and six wings and s'rafiym (seraphim), mentioned 7 times in the OT, which means "burning ones" and that were described as being snake-like ("fiery serpents") with six wings and with hands and feet, we don't know that much about them. All we can know about such creatures is from the Scriptures and it is WRONG to speculate too much beyond what the Scriptures actually tell us about them.

(Descriptions of the "k'ruviym" may be found in Ezekiel 1:5-14 and 10:1-15. Verse 10:15 confirms that they are two descriptions of the same creatures. A simple comparison of the description of the four faces in 1:10 and the four faces in 10:14 confirm that a keruv was ox-like. Descriptions of the "s'rafiym" may be found in Numbers 21:6-9 and Isaiah 6:1-7.)

(I've been studying this for quite a while.)
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I have a quieter interpretation - the creation story was a revelation from God to Moses that took 7 days. AMEN
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Shalom, aspen.



Quieter, perhaps, but not nearly as thorough.

I've never been into mental gymnastics - and no offense, that is what it takes to interpret the creation story literally. It cannot be reconciled with what we know about the world.
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
1,783
45
48
66
Tampa Bay, Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Shalom, aspen.

You should say, "It cannot be reconciled with what we THINK we know about the world." When one considers all the "facts" upon which we have built our scientific world-views, one should always admit that we don't know as much as we THINK we know about anything! It's hard to tell the difference these days between what is science fact and what is science fiction.

When our understanding of the cosmos is based on the Dopplar effect on light waves and upon an assumed constant speed of light, we've built a very shaky house of cards upon a foundation that could be pulled out from under us with one single discovery!

What we "know" about evolution is based NOT on the fossil evidence but on how we INTERPRET the fossil evidence. Again, this is a very subjective and fallible viewpoint.

If we were talking about a court of law, the evidence - no matter how many volumes it might fill - is all circumstantial! The volume of the evidence is ALL subjective, biased, and slanted. It's untrustworthy evidence despite the amount!

It's just like the re-writing of the American history books: If you say a thing long enough and loud enough, it becomes the assumed "truth." Never mind that there are arguments that prove otherwise, THIS is what we will teach is the truth! There are no absolutes, anyway. My "truth" is just different than YOUR "truth." I always thought it ironic that the only absolute was that there are no absolutes.
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Shalom, aspen.

You should say, "It cannot be reconciled with what we THINK we know about the world." When one considers all the "facts" upon which we have built our scientific world-views, one should always admit that we don't know as much as we THINK we know about anything! It's hard to tell the difference these days between what is science fact and what is science fiction.

When our understanding of the cosmos is based on the Dopplar effect on light waves and upon an assumed constant speed of light, we've built a very shaky house of cards upon a foundation that could be pulled out from under us with one single discovery!

What we "know" about evolution is based NOT on the fossil evidence but on how we INTERPRET the fossil evidence. Again, this is a very subjective and fallible viewpoint.

If we were talking about a court of law, the evidence - no matter how many volumes it might fill - is all circumstantial! The volume of the evidence is ALL subjective, biased, and slanted. It's untrustworthy evidence despite the amount!

It's just like the re-writing of the American history books: If you say a thing long enough and loud enough, it becomes the assumed "truth." Never mind that there are arguments that prove otherwise, THIS is what we will teach is the truth! There are no absolutes, anyway. My "truth" is just different than YOUR "truth." I always thought it ironic that the only absolute was that there are no absolutes.

I see what you are saying and you are certainly right about science commenting and interpreting the physical world in a narrow, shared vision they call reality. However, science is not the only field out there that compels me to find an alternative interpretation for the Creation Story. The study of cultural anthropology and ancient manuscripts have found similar creation stories in Sumner and other ancient civilizations. Now, I do believe that the Creation Story is inspired and belongs in the Bible, but I do not think it is particularly original. God uses people and their experiences to convey important information to us - this mystic vision is an example of that.

Finally, the point of the Creation Story is NOT how the world was made! This focus is a product of our Western mind - we are like the person at the party that misses the joke because we get caught up in a false sequence of the details. The story tells us about God's sovereignty and His intimate relationship with His creation. It also speaks to us about humanities' relationship with God and how things went sour; all very important information, but woefully inadequate for providing a scientific description of the creation of the Earth.
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Shalom, veteran.

Well, if you want to get nasty about it, there isn't such a thing as a "Heavenly dimension!" That's a fabrication from theological imagination that should NEVER have been introduced into the thought process of a believer! All it does is REALLY mess people up!

"Heaven" simply means the "sky!" It is the earth's ATMOSPHERE, primarily! Genesis 1:1 is NOT talking about a physical realm and a spiritual realm; it is talking about a solid/liquid portion of the physical realm and the gaseous portion of the physical realm! Simply put, when the Hebrew word "shaamayim" and the Greek word "ouranos" are used in the OT and the NT, respectively, they refer to the SKY!

Someone may point out that Day 4 of Creation is the creation of the sun, moon, and stars, but that's NOT what it says! It says a "greater light" and a "lesser light!" Hebrew HAS words for the "sun" and the "moon"; they are "shemesh" and "yaareeach," respectively. So, why weren't they used in Genesis 1:14-19? The answer is simply that that is NOT what God was doing during the Creation week! He created the LIGHTS on Day 4! The electromagnetic radiation within the spectrum range, the very photonic energy, is what He created on Day 4! He wasn't going to sit around and wait for the light from distant galaxies to get here! He created the light en route! Then, almost as an after thought, He added, "He made the stars (ha-kowkhaviym = 'the round objects') also."

Matthew 16:1-4 is a GREAT place to see it in the Greek:

Matthew 16:1-4
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
KJV


Can you see it yet? I doubt it, because it wasn't translated for anyone to see it! (Why not? Who can say?) All four of the words highlighted above are the SAME GREEK WORD, OURANOS! Did He deny them a "sign from ouranos?" NO! He GAVE them a "sign from the sky!" "Red sky at night is a sailor's delight, but a red sky at morning, sailors, take warning!" However, He DID deny them a "sign of the times," except for the sign of the naviy Yonah (Jonah).

And, in the TaNaKh (the OT), it can be seen on Day 2 and Day 5 of Creation:

Verse 1 is NOT something that happened before the first day or on the first day of Creation; as is typical in Jewish literature, it is a summary of what is to follow. The actual creation of the "shaamayim" is on Day 2:

Genesis 1:6-8
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven (Shaamayim). And the evening and the morning were the second day.
KJV


The "firmament" (Hebrew: raaqiya` = "expanse") was a physical substance that could separate two other physical substances, the mayim or waters above the firmament from the mayim or waters below the firmament, an ocean of water vapor above from an ocean of liquid water below. That "firmament," that "expanse," of gases was then renamed as "Shaamayim" or the "Skies."

Further proof is found on Day 5 with the creation of the birds:

Genesis 1:20-23
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven (Hebrew: Shaamayim).
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
KJV


Thus, God created the birds to fly in the "shaamayim," in the "skies," the "atmosphere!"

By the way, the NT writers had another word to describe the area above the skies: "epouranios," meaning "of or belonging to above-the-ouranos" or "above-the-sky." This word was usually tranlated as "heavenly," although so was the Greek word "ouranios," which means "of or belonging to the ouranos," or "of or belonging to the sky."

"Epouranios" was used to describe the sun, moon, and stars in 1 Corinthians 15:40-41:

1 Corinthians 15:40-41
40 There are also celestial bodies (soomata epourania), and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial (epouranioon) is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
KJV


It is also the word used to describe the New Jerusalem in Hebrews 12:22:

Hebrews 12:22-24
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem (Ierousaleem epouranioo), and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
KJV


(Just a quick note about my transliteration scheme for Greek: I use "e" for epsilon, "ee" for eta, "o" for omicron, and "oo" for omega.)

While there may be "messengers" that are not human, such as the k'ruviym (cherubim or cherubs), mentioned 91 times in the OT, that were described as being part ox but still humanoid in shape with four faces and six wings and s'rafiym (seraphim), mentioned 7 times in the OT, which means "burning ones" and that were described as being snake-like ("fiery serpents") with six wings and with hands and feet, we don't know that much about them. All we can know about such creatures is from the Scriptures and it is WRONG to speculate too much beyond what the Scriptures actually tell us about them.

(Descriptions of the "k'ruviym" may be found in Ezekiel 1:5-14 and 10:1-15. Verse 10:15 confirms that they are two descriptions of the same creatures. A simple comparison of the description of the four faces in 1:10 and the four faces in 10:14 confirm that a keruv was ox-like. Descriptions of the "s'rafiym" may be found in Numbers 21:6-9 and Isaiah 6:1-7.)

(I've been studying this for quite a while.)



That's pretty much a belief in Salvation of this present fleshy world you're pushing.


It also denies the following in 1 Cor.15 where you failed to continue with...

1 Cor 15:44-51
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(KJV)


Belief in a fleshy Salvation is of this 'present' world with those who seek to setup a copy of God's Kingdom upon this earth today. Problem is, that working is of the Devil, and not of The Father and His Son, and definitely not of the world to come.
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
1,783
45
48
66
Tampa Bay, Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Shalom, aspen.

I see what you are saying and you are certainly right about science commenting and interpreting the physical world in a narrow, shared vision they call reality. However, science is not the only field out there that compels me to find an alternative interpretation for the Creation Story. The study of cultural anthropology and ancient manuscripts have found similar creation stories in Sumner and other ancient civilizations. Now, I do believe that the Creation Story is inspired and belongs in the Bible, but I do not think it is particularly original. God uses people and their experiences to convey important information to us - this mystic vision is an example of that.

Finally, the point of the Creation Story is NOT how the world was made! This focus is a product of our Western mind - we are like the person at the party that misses the joke because we get caught up in a false sequence of the details. The story tells us about God's sovereignty and His intimate relationship with His creation. It also speaks to us about humanities' relationship with God and how things went sour; all very important information, but woefully inadequate for providing a scientific description of the creation of the Earth.

While it is true that the Bible is not a science book, it is also true that, when the Bible speaks on scientific matters, it speaks accurately. Would you really think that God doesn't know about His own Creation?! Furthermore, God is not a liar; therefore, what He has said about the Creation conveyed to Mosheh for him to write down is NOT a fabrication nor is it "woefully inadequate!" I would suggest that it is our SCIENCE, particularly our COSMOLOGICAL MODEL, that is "woefully inadequate."

I would agree with you about "God's sovereignty and His intimate relationship with His Creation," particularly ha-Adam. I will even agree with you about "humanity's relationship with God and how things went sour," but you must not forget that God gave VERY PERTINENT information regarding the actual Creation process:

God could have accomplished the entire Creation in a single day - in a single MOMENT of time! BUT, He chose not to do so. Instead, He gave us a very orderly procedure He followed by which we have our current biosphere:

Day 1 - Light (Yowm - Day) and darkness (Laaylaah - Night) (also Erev - Evening and Bokeer - Morning)
Day 2 - The skies (shaamayim) and the waters (mayim) above and the waters below - the sky, the expanse (raqiya`) of gases separating the waters
Day 3 - The seas (yamim, the gathered waters below the sky) and the dry land or earth (erets) with the plantlife, grass (deshe', plants that reproduce by runners and rhizomes), herb (`eeseV, plants that reproduce by naked seeds), and tree (`eets, plants that reproduce by seeds within fruit) - these are very generic classifications by God Himself

Day 4 - The organization of light into a Greater Light (hamaa`owr hagadol) and a Lesser Light (hamaa`owr haqaaTon) and the stars (ha-kowkhaaViym, the round objects, the "sources" almost as an after-thought)
Day 5 - The creation of animals to populate the waters (seas) and the skies - fish (dagiym) broken down to great whales (hataniynim hagdowliym, marine monstrous-creatures) and every living creature that moveth (kaal nefesh hachayah haromeset) and every winged fowl (kaal `owf kaanaaf)
Day 6 - The creation of animals and man to populate the dry land - the animals being broken down to beast of the earth (chayat haa-aarets), cattle (any herd animal, habheemaah), and every thing that creepeth upon the earth (kaal remes haa'adaamaah), and the man haAadaam (the red), divided into man (iysh) and woman (iyshah)

Day 7 - God rested (yishbot) and made the day happy and holy for "he had rested" (shaabat, or in Greek, "sabbatos" or "sabbath")

And, in the process, He gave us both a week of seven days and a "shabbat" - a day of rest, a period of recuperation from our labors.

Now, of course there will be similar stories, but theirs all stem from THIS ONE! Embellished and exaggerated, personified and attributed to other gods, their stories don't have the elegance of the ORIGINAL ACCOUNT! It is NOT a "mystic vision." It's a literal, physical account of what God did - greatly summarized, perhaps - but LITERAL and PHYSICAL and TANGIBLE! Simplistic perhaps - simple enough for a child to understand - but with profoundly detailed organization. We may use a different means of classification for life forms on this planet today, but these classifications are based upon patterns that God used for each class of animal.

Even Rav Sha'uwl (Paul) said,

1 Cor. 15:39-54
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
KJV


See how the passage is built upon the understanding of the Creation week? I challenge you to study this passage out in the Greek; you will find that there are several comparisons being made within this short passage. You might be able to see some of them in the English translations, but I doubt you will understand them all immediately.

I would ask that you think on some words of wisdom as you study:

Strange how much you have to know before you know how little you know.
We don't know that we don't know what we don't know ("blind spots").
Sometimes, our theology gets in the way of our understanding of God!
Be open-minded when it comes to questioning what you THINK you know, and don't be afraid to question it!
Don't be afraid to "kill the sacred cow" in your search for truth. There are some "holy words" that many feel we shouldn't question, but ONLY GOD IS HOLY!



Never be ashamed of the truths of God's Word. We may not understand the Scriptures fully, but they contain such intricate detail that they CANNOT be mere myth or allegory!
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
1,783
45
48
66
Tampa Bay, Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Shalom, veteran.

That's pretty much a belief in Salvation of this present fleshy world you're pushing.


It also denies the following in 1 Cor.15 where you failed to continue with...

1 Cor 15:44-51
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(KJV)


Belief in a fleshy Salvation is of this 'present' world with those who seek to setup a copy of God's Kingdom upon this earth today. Problem is, that working is of the Devil, and not of The Father and His Son, and definitely not of the world to come.

How to begin ... hmmm .... It seems that you have a faulty understanding of the basic Greek words of this passage. Let's look at the Greek of this passage directly and go back to verse 35 to start:

35 Alla erei tis, "poos egeirontai hoi nekroi? Poioo de soomati erchontai?"
36 Afroon, su ho speireis ou zoo-opoieitai ean mee apothanee;
37 kai ho speireis ou to sooma to geneesomenon speireis alla gumnon kokkon ei tuchoi sitou ee tinos toon loipoon;
38 ho de Theos didoosin autoo sooma kathoos eetheleesen, kai hekastoo toon spermatoon idion sooma.
39 Ou pasa sarx hee autee sarx alla allee men anthroopoon, allee de sarx kteenoon, allee de sarx pteenoon, allee de ichthuoon.
40 Kai soomata epourania, kai soomata epigeia: alla hetera men hee toon epouranioon doxa, hetera de hee toon epigeioon.
41 Allee doxa heeliou, kai allee doxa seleenees, kai allee doxa asteroon: asteer gar asteros diaferei en doxee.
42 Houtoos kai hee anastasis toon nekroon. Speiretai en fthora, egeiretai en aftharsia;
43 speiretai en atimia, egeiretai en doxee; speiretai en astheneia, egeiretai en dunamei;
44 speiretai sooma psuchikon, egeiretai sooma pneumatikon. Ei estin sooma psuchikon estin kai pneumatikon.
45 Houtoos kai gegraptai, "Egeneto ho prootos anthroopos Adam eis psucheen zoosan," ho eschatos Adam eis pneuma zoo-opoioun.
46 All' ou prooton to pneumatikon alla to psuchikon, epeita to pneumatikon.
47 Ho prootos anthroopos ek gees choikos, ho dueteros anthroopos ex ouranou.
48 Hoios ho choikos, toioutoi kai hoi choikoi, kai hoios ho epouranios, toioutoi kai hoi epouranioi;
49 kai kathoos eforesamen teen eikona tou choikou, foresomen kai teen eikona tou epouraniou.
50 Touto de feemi, adelfoi, hoti sarx kai haima Basileian Theou kleeronomeesai ou dunatai oude hee fthora teen aftharsian kleeronomei.
51 Idou musteerion humin legoo; pantes ou koimeetheesometha, pantes de allageesometha,
52 en atomoo, en ripee ofthalmou, en tee eschatee salphiggi; salpisei gar kai hoi nekroi egertheesontai afthartoi kai heemeis allageesometha.
53 Dei gar to ftharton touto endusasthai aftharsian kai to thneeton touto endusasthai athanasian.
54 Hotan de to ftharton touto enduseetai aftharsian kai to thneeton touto enduseetai athanasian, tote geneesetai ho logos ho gegrammenos, "Katepothee ho thanatos eis nikos."

Within this passage, there are LOTS of comparisons between two similar terms: For instance, we have...

apothanee = it-dies, zoo-opoieitai = it-is-brought-to-life
spermatoon = seed, sooma = body (as in the full plant that is harvested)
soomata epigeia = bodies above/upon-earth, soomata epourania = bodies above/upon-[the]-sky
speiretai = it-is-sown, egeiretai = it-is-raised
fthora = corruption/decay, aftharsia = incorruption
atimia = dishonor/shame, doxee = apparency/brightness/"glow-ry"
astheneia = weakness, dunamei = power/strength/"dynamite"
sooma psuchikon = breathing body, sooma pneumatikon = blasting body
prootos anthroopos Adam = first man Adam, eschatos (anthroopos) Adam = last (man) Adam
psucheen = a breathing-creature/"soul", pneuma zoo-opoioun = a life-giving wind/blast-of-air/forceful-blow/"spirit"
psuchikon = that-which-breathes/"natural", pneumatikon = that-which-forcefully-blows/blasts/"spiritual"
prootos = first, deuteros = second
ek gees = out-of/from earth, ek ouranou = out-of/from [the]-sky
ho choikos = the soil-like/dusty/dirty, ho epouranios = the from-above-the-sky
teen eikona tou choikou = the image/"icon" of-the soil-like/dusty/dirty, teen eikona tou epouraniou = the image/"icon" of-the from-above-the-sky
sarx kai haima = flesh and blood, Basileian Theou = Kingdom of-God
fthora = decay/corruption, aftharsian = incorruption
pantes ou koimeetheesometha = we shall not all sleep, pantes allageesometha = we shall all be changed/transformed/made-different
to ftharton = the corruptible/decayable, aftharsian = incorruption
to thneeton = the mortal/capable-of-dying, athanasian = immortality/incapable-of-dying
thanatos = death, nikos = victory

There is no "immaterial" implied within these verses! Our physical bodies are not made into ghost-like bodies! Our weak bodies are made into STRONG bodies! Our physical, weak bodies that can die and decay are made into PHYSICAL, STRONG bodies that can NEVER DIE and will NEVER DECAY!

What did Yeshua` say to His talmudiym after His resurrection?

Luke 24:37-40
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit (a ghost).
38 And he said unto them,
Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
KJV


Then, what did He do? He called for some food and ate it in front of them!

Luke 24:41-43
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,
Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
KJV

1 John 3:2
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
KJV


And, consider the words of this passage carefully:

Rom. 8:16-23
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
KJV


We are waiting for the ADOPTION, the buying-back of our bodies! And, not just us, but "the whole creation groaneth and travaileth!"

God is not going to lose to haSatan in any way! He is NOT going to mar God's Creation beyond saving! God WILL redeem His Creation and make it anew, just as He will make our bodies new! Even if we go to "Heaven" (which I believe is actually the New Jerusalem of Revelation 21 and 22) before our resurrection, we would be DISEMBODIED SPIRITS, without physical substance or the ability to appreciate and enjoy fully what we might "see" or "hear!" We NEED our bodies! We are incomplete without them! A "soul" (nefesh/psuchee) is the COMBINATION of the "body" (geviya`/sooma) and the "spirit" (ruach/pneuma)! If we are just disembodied spirits - ghosts - we are not yet SOULS! We MUST have the resurrection! That is also why we are NEVER encouraged to anticipate "going to Heaven"; instead, we are encouraged to anticipate the RESURRECTION OF OUR BODIES!

Hope this helps.
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
According to what you believe then, it would lead one to think that even our Heavenly Father Himself must be flesh!

A still deeper study in the New Testament Greek will reveal that spirit and soul can be separated from the flesh body, but one's spirit and soul cannot be separated from each other.


Eccl 12:5-7
5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it.
(KJV)


2 Cor 5:1-10
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now He That hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, Who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of Him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
(KJV)
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
For those having difficulty with what the resurrection is which Apostle Paul taught...


1 Cor 15:35-55
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:


Paul is giving a comparison here using a material seed sown in the earth with its germinating. A seed sown in the ground is not "quickened" (vitalized) except it die first. In the germination process, an embryonic part INSIDE the seed is quickened (vitalized) with the outer shell of the seed perishing. It's that embryonic germ inside the seed that produces a brand new plant. Plants that produce seeds that don't have embryos inside them do not... germinate.

That's what Paul was talking about with "thou sowest not that body which shall be" (Greek speiro ou ho soma ginomai). Paul reveals he's familiar with the germination process of plant seed. Got... to... understand that process first, to understand how he's using it as a comparison to the resurrection type body.

Thusly, in the resurrection, the outer shell of man's flesh is not... that body which shall be, but instead something that is inside..., like the embryo inside the plant seed that comes forth. What is sown (outer shell) must die first for that embryonic part inside to come forth. That's how Paul is applying the idea of germinating plant seed to the resurrection body. Does he continue that theme in the next verses?


38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him, and to every seed his own body.

Paul said God gives it a body according to His Purpose, like with every seed. Then Paul goes into comparisons of different type bodies.


39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

Not all flesh types are the same type, but they are all exterior that one can touch, see, i.e., made up of material matter.


40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.


The celestial bodies (of the sky) are also of material matter, but of different types and manifestations of that material matter.


42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

So likewise is the resurrection body a specific type of body. It is not a body like the birds or animals, nor of the sun, moon, or stars (celestial). It's its own type of body God ordained for it. It is sown in corruption (phthora), it is raised in incorruption (aphthrsia). The body of corruption is our flesh body. The body of incorruption is the resurrection type body, clearly a different type body than our flesh; one of its own order per God's ordaining. It's a type body that cannot die unless He says so, which is about the "second death" of Rev.20.


43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

The idea is that something... is sown in corruption, and that same it is raising in incorruption. Remember the embryo inside the plant seed that germinates. There's still a difference even in that comparison, because even a new plant from the seed's embryo is in corruption also and will eventually perish. But Paul's going further than just the simple germination process of plant seed and its embryo inside. How?

Sown in "corruption" , "dishonor" (atimia), "weakness" (astheneia) vs. raised in "incorruption", "glory" (doxa), "power" (Greek dunamis - miraculous power).


Paul's next verse is going to really seal the meaning that the resurrection type body is not the same exact type as our flesh body we have today...

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

The "natural body" (psuchikos soma - animate, beast nature) is about our flesh animated body. The "spiritual body" (pneumatikos soma - non-carnal, ethereal, or spirit) is about the type body the angels in Heaven have, a Heavenly order type. It is the spirit part of Eccl.12:5-7 that goes back to God Who gave it when our flesh body dies. There it is; that's the embryonic part inside the sown seed comparison which Paul was speaking about. That "spiritual body" is what comes forth when the seed sown dies and goes back to the earthly elements of material matter. That is about two... distinct dimensions of existence, the earthly vs. the heavenly.


45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The idea of a living soul (psuche - breath, spirit) and a quickened spirit (pneuma - breath, spirit) are often confused with each other. A living soul definitely refers to a living human being with a flesh body living on this earth. The reason why it is confused with pneuma, which also means breath-spirit, is because of that embryo inside the plant seed, remember? Jesus made it more simple...

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul (Greek psuche): but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(KJV)


What body is our Lord Jesus speaking of that is killed? It's a flesh body. OK, so at that point the flesh body is dead, but those who kill the flesh body cannot destroy what? They're not able to kill the "soul" (psuche) when they kill the flesh body. That reveals to us that one's soul... is a separate part of our being from our flesh. In other words, the existence of our soul is NOT dependent upon one's flesh body. That should be a major revelation for those who think the soul is always part of the flesh. It is not, even as Christ revealed there.

OK, so now we have a better clue as to what the "soul" (psuche) is; not part of the flesh body. And it can be separated from the flesh body if the flesh is killed. So what is this "spiritual body" (pneumatikos soma) which Paul later calls a "quickening spirit" (zoopoieo pneuma)?

THE MYSTERY:
Did you notice both those Greek words for "spiritual body" and "quickening spirit" are from Greek pneuma which means breath-spirit? And that the Greek word for "soul" also is linked to the idea of breath-spirit with psuche? They're connected together, one's soul and spiritual body, and cannot be separated from each other. But they both... can be separated from our flesh body, our body of corruption.

This is why Apostle Paul taught in 2 Cor.5 that if our outer earthly tabernacle were 'dissolved', we also have a tabernacle not made with hands (put for flesh birth), but eternal in the heavens. When we are born into a flesh body, God places our soul with spirit inside a flesh shell. That flesh shell is like the outer shell of the sown seed idea. It dies during germination, but the embryonic part inside the seed springs forth to new life. Likewise with the resurrection. When our flesh dies or is destroyed, our spirit with soul that's inside our flesh body goes to the Heavenly, to God where He is.

This is also what Solomon, whom God gave much wisdom to, also revealed...

Eccl 12:6-7
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
(KJV)


Solomon knew what happens at flesh death, even remarked about something like a "silver cord" being loosed or parted when separation of the soul with spirit leaves the flesh body at death. He did not include mention of the word soul (breath, spirit), yet later New Testament Scripture like from our Lord Jesus and Paul should settle that the 'soul' is included with that "spirit" going back to God Who gave it.


1 Cor.15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.


Paul continues with separate distinctions between the earthly order and the heavenly order. The first man was created in the flesh, God breathing the "breath of life" into it and man became living soul upon the earth. But the second man is our Lord Jesus from Heaven, and His Resurrection represents the future state of the world to come with a spiritual body with its soul living upon this earth. (Note how the angels of Gen.18 were able to sit down and eat man's food, and how the two angels sent to Lot appeared to the Sodomites per Gen.19; yet we know they did not have flesh type bodies).


48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


Paul continues to draw a line between this earthly order of existence and the heavenly order of existence. As we have borne the "image of the earthy" with a flesh body, we shall also bear the "image of the heavenly" with the "spiritual body", a heavenly body of "incorruption" that man cannot destroy, but only God can with the "lake of fire".


50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Paul actually meant that. The Kingdom of God is about the world to come, after God has destroyed this present world by fire (2 Pet.3:10). That future world will be about bodies of incorruption, not bodies of flesh and blood. Many deny Paul's statement there because of what our Lord Jesus said to His disciples about a spirit has not flesh and bones as they saw Him have (Luke 24). Our Lord Jesus' flesh body was raised and transfigured as absolute proof of His Resurrection, even with the marks of His crucifixion. This is why while upon the mount of transfiguration He was then transfigured when communicating with Elijah and Moses about His coming crucifixion (Luke 9:29-32). It helped reveal what the 'change' Paul speaks of in the next verses mean for us at Christ's second coming in the future...


51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


Not all the saints will die prior to Christ's second coming. Some of us will still be upon this earth. But we ALL... shall be "changed" to the resurrection type body, which includes the unjust also at Christ's coming (John 5:28-29). Those who have died are raised to the resurrection, but those still alive on earth will be changed at an instant to the resurrection state.


53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Those are 4 separate and distinct words in the Greek. To have eternal life through Christ... 2 conditions... must be met. The first condition will occur for everyone, the change from our corruptible flesh bodies to the "spiritual body", a body of incorruption. The other change that must happen to live with Christ is that "mortal" which is 'liable to die' must put on "immortality".

So what's that "mortal" part, since the "corruptible" part is about the flesh body? Flesh and blood cannot be made immortal, as Paul revealed earlier. So what is that "mortal" part? Once a soul is resurrected but can still be subject to the "second death", what is that second death? It's not death of a flesh body, for that order will be over after Christ's coming. What was that warning our Lord Jesus gave us to not fear those who kill our flesh body, but not our soul, but fear Him Who can destroy both body and soul in the lake of fire (Greek genna)? If our flesh body is killed, then that's not the body which God will destroy with the soul in the lake of fire (for those who perish).

That "mortal" part is the soul (spirit) Paul was talking about. That's the psuche (soul) attached with the pneuma (spirit) remember? THAT is what goes into the "lake of fire" at the "second death" for those still subject to that. That is also what must put on "immortality" to live eternal with God and His Son. Per Rev.20, not all souls will have put on that immortality. They will have the spiritual body of incorruption, but their "mortal" part will not be immortal, but still liable to perish. That's about the wicked and unjust during Christ's Millennium reign.


54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
(KJV)


The last enemy to be destroyed is 'death', also an acronym for the devil. Paul is pulling from Isaiah 25 with those verses, where God says the face of covering over all peoples will be destroyed, and the vail that is spread over all nations, and He will swallow death in victory. That is another revealing about the difference between our "image of the earthy" we have today, and the "image of the heavenly" we all will have in that future time.
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
1,783
45
48
66
Tampa Bay, Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Shalom, veteran.

According to what you believe then, it would lead one to think that even our Heavenly Father Himself must be flesh!

I have never said or indicated such a thing! I would thank you not to put words in my mouth (so to speak)! God is a Spirit - a WIND! The Hebrew word is "ruach," which can also mean "as invisible AS the wind," which is very similar to the Greek word "pneuma." This is the same word that is used for the "spirit" of a human being.

A still deeper study in the New Testament Greek will reveal that spirit and soul can be separated from the flesh body, but one's spirit and soul cannot be separated from each other.

Oh, really?! What does Hebrews 4:12 mean then?

Heb. 4:12
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
KJV


The Word of God is able to divide them apart! Indeed, the Greek text says that it divides the "breath" from the "breather!" That's NOT an uncommon event! Death comes to all!

Eccl 12:5-7
5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it.
(KJV)

2 Cor 5:1-10
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now He That hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, Who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of Him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
(KJV)

First, Ecclesiastes is not in the New Testament; therefore, it was not written in Greek (unless you are referring to the text of the Septuagint). Nevertheless, the passage merely CONFIRMS what I was saying: The "spirit" (Hebrew: ruach) alone leaves the "body" (Hebrew: geviya`) and returns to God and the person is no longer a "soul" (Hebrew: "nefesh")! The words for "body" and "soul" are not even mentioned in the passage! It's just the "spirit" that goes back to EIohiym who gave it! Furthermore, the closest thing to "body" in the passage is phrase "the dust" (Hebrew: "he`aafaar")

Now, let's go carefully through 2 Corinthians 5:1-10:

2 Cor 5:1-10
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle = "For we know that if our tent-house upon earth"
were dissolved, = "was disintegrated"
we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, = "we have a structure out from God, a house not-manufactured" (or "artificial")
eternal in the heavens .= "into the age in the skies."
2 For in this we groan, = "For we are in straits/we sigh for this,"
earnestly desiring to be clothed = "we intensely crave to be dressed in"
upon with our house which is from heaven: = "our house, the one out of the sky:"
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. = "And if so dressed, we won't be discovered naked."
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, = "For also the-ones who are in this tent sigh,"
being burdened: = "weighed-down:"
not for that we would be unclothed, = "not over that we would be undressed,"
but clothed upon, = "but be dressed,"
that mortality might be swallowed up of life. = "so that life would gulp down mortality."

5 Now He That hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, = "But God fashioned us ourselves into that same thing,"
Who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. = "who has given to us the down-payment of the Spirit."
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, = "Therefore, always courageous and knowing that"
whilst we are at home in the body, = "while we're in our own country in the body,"
we are absent from the Lord: = "we are emigrated away from the Master:"
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) = "(For through faith/trust we walk around, not through sight:)"
8 We are confident, I say, = "But we're couragous"
and willing rather to be absent from the body, = "and think well more to emigrate out of the body,"
and to be present with the Lord. = "and to be in our own country toward the Master."
9 Wherefore we labour, that, = "And consequently we are fond-of-honor/eager-to-accomplish-something,"
whether present or absent, = "whether in our own country or having emigrated,"
we may be accepted of Him. = "we may be fully agreeable to Him."
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; = "For all of us must be rendered apparent in front of the dais of the Messiah;"
that every one may receive the things done in his body, = "so that each one may carry off the things through the body,"
according to that he hath done, = "toward that he has accomplished,"
whether it be good or bad.= "whether good or wicked."

This is talking about the RESURRECTION! We don't want to be found naked, that is, without our bodies, but to be dressed in our NEW bodies, when "life gulps down mortality!"

And another thing, where do you think the "judgment seat of Christ" will be? There is a common belief that it will be in "Heaven," but let me ask it this way: Where would you suppose the judgment seat of the MESSIAH will be? When will the MESSIAH be given His throne? The Messiah is to be the King of Isra'el!

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV


His throne - David's throne, a judgment seat - will be His when He returns! He will judge throughout the Millennium, until the last enemy, death, is finally conquered and subdued.

So, everyone will appear before His throne to be judged until all matters that need rectifying are solved. That's not just "handing out crowns" for seven years, as some believe!
 

Buzzfruit

New Member
Aug 21, 2011
773
6
0
62
Bronx, New York, U.S.A
Shalom, veteran.



How to begin ... hmmm .... It seems that you have a faulty understanding of the basic Greek words of this passage. Let's look at the Greek of this passage directly and go back to verse 35 to start:

35 Alla erei tis, "poos egeirontai hoi nekroi? Poioo de soomati erchontai?"
36 Afroon, su ho speireis ou zoo-opoieitai ean mee apothanee;
37 kai ho speireis ou to sooma to geneesomenon speireis alla gumnon kokkon ei tuchoi sitou ee tinos toon loipoon;
38 ho de Theos didoosin autoo sooma kathoos eetheleesen, kai hekastoo toon spermatoon idion sooma.
39 Ou pasa sarx hee autee sarx alla allee men anthroopoon, allee de sarx kteenoon, allee de sarx pteenoon, allee de ichthuoon.
40 Kai soomata epourania, kai soomata epigeia: alla hetera men hee toon epouranioon doxa, hetera de hee toon epigeioon.
41 Allee doxa heeliou, kai allee doxa seleenees, kai allee doxa asteroon: asteer gar asteros diaferei en doxee.
42 Houtoos kai hee anastasis toon nekroon. Speiretai en fthora, egeiretai en aftharsia;
43 speiretai en atimia, egeiretai en doxee; speiretai en astheneia, egeiretai en dunamei;
44 speiretai sooma psuchikon, egeiretai sooma pneumatikon. Ei estin sooma psuchikon estin kai pneumatikon.
45 Houtoos kai gegraptai, "Egeneto ho prootos anthroopos Adam eis psucheen zoosan," ho eschatos Adam eis pneuma zoo-opoioun.
46 All' ou prooton to pneumatikon alla to psuchikon, epeita to pneumatikon.
47 Ho prootos anthroopos ek gees choikos, ho dueteros anthroopos ex ouranou.
48 Hoios ho choikos, toioutoi kai hoi choikoi, kai hoios ho epouranios, toioutoi kai hoi epouranioi;
49 kai kathoos eforesamen teen eikona tou choikou, foresomen kai teen eikona tou epouraniou.
50 Touto de feemi, adelfoi, hoti sarx kai haima Basileian Theou kleeronomeesai ou dunatai oude hee fthora teen aftharsian kleeronomei.
51 Idou musteerion humin legoo; pantes ou koimeetheesometha, pantes de allageesometha,
52 en atomoo, en ripee ofthalmou, en tee eschatee salphiggi; salpisei gar kai hoi nekroi egertheesontai afthartoi kai heemeis allageesometha.
53 Dei gar to ftharton touto endusasthai aftharsian kai to thneeton touto endusasthai athanasian.
54 Hotan de to ftharton touto enduseetai aftharsian kai to thneeton touto enduseetai athanasian, tote geneesetai ho logos ho gegrammenos, "Katepothee ho thanatos eis nikos."

Within this passage, there are LOTS of comparisons between two similar terms: For instance, we have...

apothanee = it-dies, zoo-opoieitai = it-is-brought-to-life
spermatoon = seed, sooma = body (as in the full plant that is harvested)
soomata epigeia = bodies above/upon-earth, soomata epourania = bodies above/upon-[the]-sky
speiretai = it-is-sown, egeiretai = it-is-raised
fthora = corruption/decay, aftharsia = incorruption
atimia = dishonor/shame, doxee = apparency/brightness/"glow-ry"
astheneia = weakness, dunamei = power/strength/"dynamite"
sooma psuchikon = breathing body, sooma pneumatikon = blasting body
prootos anthroopos Adam = first man Adam, eschatos (anthroopos) Adam = last (man) Adam
psucheen = a breathing-creature/"soul", pneuma zoo-opoioun = a life-giving wind/blast-of-air/forceful-blow/"spirit"
psuchikon = that-which-breathes/"natural", pneumatikon = that-which-forcefully-blows/blasts/"spiritual"
prootos = first, deuteros = second
ek gees = out-of/from earth, ek ouranou = out-of/from [the]-sky
ho choikos = the soil-like/dusty/dirty, ho epouranios = the from-above-the-sky
teen eikona tou choikou = the image/"icon" of-the soil-like/dusty/dirty, teen eikona tou epouraniou = the image/"icon" of-the from-above-the-sky
sarx kai haima = flesh and blood, Basileian Theou = Kingdom of-God
fthora = decay/corruption, aftharsian = incorruption
pantes ou koimeetheesometha = we shall not all sleep, pantes allageesometha = we shall all be changed/transformed/made-different
to ftharton = the corruptible/decayable, aftharsian = incorruption
to thneeton = the mortal/capable-of-dying, athanasian = immortality/incapable-of-dying
thanatos = death, nikos = victory

There is no "immaterial" implied within these verses! Our physical bodies are not made into ghost-like bodies! Our weak bodies are made into STRONG bodies! Our physical, weak bodies that can die and decay are made into PHYSICAL, STRONG bodies that can NEVER DIE and will NEVER DECAY!

What did Yeshua` say to His talmudiym after His resurrection?

Luke 24:37-40
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit (a ghost).
38 And he said unto them,
Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
KJV


Then, what did He do? He called for some food and ate it in front of them!

Luke 24:41-43
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,
Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
KJV

1 John 3:2
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
KJV


And, consider the words of this passage carefully:

Rom. 8:16-23
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
KJV


We are waiting for the ADOPTION, the buying-back of our bodies! And, not just us, but "the whole creation groaneth and travaileth!"

God is not going to lose to haSatan in any way! He is NOT going to mar God's Creation beyond saving! God WILL redeem His Creation and make it anew, just as He will make our bodies new! Even if we go to "Heaven" (which I believe is actually the New Jerusalem of Revelation 21 and 22) before our resurrection, we would be DISEMBODIED SPIRITS, without physical substance or the ability to appreciate and enjoy fully what we might "see" or "hear!" We NEED our bodies! We are incomplete without them! A "soul" (nefesh/psuchee) is the COMBINATION of the "body" (geviya`/sooma) and the "spirit" (ruach/pneuma)! If we are just disembodied spirits - ghosts - we are not yet SOULS! We MUST have the resurrection! That is also why we are NEVER encouraged to anticipate "going to Heaven"; instead, we are encouraged to anticipate the RESURRECTION OF OUR BODIES!

Hope this helps.


One correction on what you have said. The New Jerusalem is the City that God will bring from Heaven to the Earth......we are not going to Heaven and Jesus never taught this and neither did the apostles.

Revelation 21:1-2 (ESV)
[sup]1 [/sup]Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
[sup]2 [/sup]And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


It’s time to stop believing false teachings that is propagated in the Church.