When Did Jesus Say He Would Return?

veteran · Dec 31, 2011

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, veteran.

I have never said or indicated such a thing! I would thank you not to put words in my mouth (so to speak)! God is a Spirit - a WIND! The Hebrew word is "ruach," which can also mean "as invisible AS the wind," which is very similar to the Greek word "pneuma." This is the same word that is used for the "spirit" of a human being.

I never said you actually did... believe God could be flesh, but that your view on this matter would make it seem so.

Oh, really?! What does Hebrews 4:12 mean then?

Heb. 4:12
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
KJV

The Word of God is able to divide them apart! Indeed, the Greek text says that it divides the "breath" from the "breather!" That's NOT an uncommon event! Death comes to all!

That verse must agree with what Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 to not fear those who can kill our flesh body but not the soul, which is more clear as to what is separated at flesh death. That Hebrews verse is about the separating of soul & spirit from... the flesh body.

First, Ecclesiastes is not in the New Testament; therefore, it was not written in Greek (unless you are referring to the text of the Septuagint). Nevertheless, the passage merely CONFIRMS what I was saying: The "spirit" (Hebrew: ruach) alone leaves the "body" (Hebrew: geviya`) and returns to God and the person is no longer a "soul" (Hebrew: "nefesh")! The words for "body" and "soul" are not even mentioned in the passage! It's just the "spirit" that goes back to EIohiym who gave it! Furthermore, the closest thing to "body" in the passage is phrase "the dust" (Hebrew: "he`aafaar")

Doesn't matter that Eccl.12:5-7 is Old Testament and that it does not specifically mention the word soul (nephesh), because Christ Jesus and Apostle Paul gave more detail in the NT about that very event. That shows you're wanting to rely more on the Old Testament and tradition instead updating your understanding about the soul per the New Testament, like what our Lord Jesus said in Matt.10:28 about the soul (psuche) not being killed with the flesh body.

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul (psuche): but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(KJV)

How do Christ's Own words there not... disagree with the Eccl.12:5-7 passage? Ans: one's "soul" (psuche) has to be included with that "spirit" that goes back to God Who gave it. Thus the 'soul' per New Testament doctrine is not about it being part of the flesh.

2 Cor 5:1-10
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle = "For we know that if our tent-house upon earth"
were dissolved, = "was disintegrated"
we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, = "we have a structure out from God, a house not-manufactured" (or "artificial")
eternal in the heavens .= "into the age in the skies."

There's a huge difference between the sky atmosphere that surrounds the earth and the place of Heaven where God dwells. The sky around the earth is of material matter, the abode of Heaven is not, for it's simply a different 'dimension' or realm of existence.

Even in Genesis 1:1 the Hebrew for "heaven" there is plural, meaning Heaven (God's abode) and heaven (sky around the earth). So your context in translating that into "age in the skies" literally removes the idea of God's Heavenly abode altogether, when God's Heavenly abode is specific to what Paul is referring to. The idea of a house "not made with hands" should have shown you that difference also, since Paul's making a distinction with that earthy tabernacle of flesh being different than the one not made with hands that's immaterial.

2 For in this we groan, = "For we are in straits/we sigh for this,"

The Greek of "For in this" is important, which is Greek: gar (because) en (in) toutoi (within this). The Greek is not only about being in straits. It is pointing specifically to our being inside... something that causes us to be in straits. What is it that we are in that makes us groan to be clothed with our house from Heaven? It's our flesh body, the earthly tabernacle Paul mentioned, the one made with hands that's fleshy, material.

earnestly desiring to be clothed = "we intensely crave to be dressed in"
upon with our house which is from heaven: = "our house, the one out of the sky:"

Just can't get around what Paul is saying there can you? Paul's making a clear distinction between an earthy flesh body and a Heavenly type body, what he called the "spiritual body" and "image of the heavenly" in 1 Cor.15. Obviously, that's not simply about a body made out of the sky atmosphere around the earth!

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. = "And if so dressed, we won't be discovered naked."
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, = "For also the-ones who are in this tent sigh,"

Once again the Greek is about those who dwell in the flesh body as a temporary residence with Greek 'skenos', we groan inside it to be clothed "with our house which is from heaven", which per the Greek is: hemon (of our) oketerion (habitation) ho (that) ek (is from) ouranos (Heaven, as the abode of God).

being burdened: = "weighed-down:"
not for that we would be unclothed, = "not over that we would be undressed,"
but clothed upon, = "but be dressed,"
that mortality might be swallowed up of life. = "so that life would gulp down mortality."

The flesh is assigned to death, period. It cannot live forever, and will not. Paul is showing that with this required change from our earthy tabernacle to another type he called our "house which is from heaven" in verse 2.

5 Now He That hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, = "But God fashioned us ourselves into that same thing,"
Who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. = "who has given to us the down-payment of the Spirit."

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, = "Therefore, always courageous and knowing that"
whilst we are at home in the body, = "while we're in our own country in the body,"

You fail to use the proper idea of Greek endemeo per the context of what's Paul been talking about. With "whilst we are at home" he was not talking about the idea of a country, but our fleshy tabernacle house as our temporary dwelling. So the KJV translators translated the idea of Greek endemeo properly with "home". The whole phrase: endemeo (at home) en (in) ho (the) soma (the body).

we are absent from the Lord: = "we are emigrated away from the Master:"

Greek: ekdemeo (to vacate or absent) apo (away from) ho (the) kurios (lord). Once again, the KJV translators were right-on with "we are absent from the Lord". Greek 'kurios' is used a whole lot in the NT as a title for The Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight = "(For through faith/trust we walk around, not through sight"
8 We are confident, I say, = "But we're couragous"
and willing rather to be absent from the body, = "and think well more to emigrate out of the body,"
and to be present with the Lord. = "and to be in our own country toward the Master."
9 Wherefore we labour, that, = "And consequently we are fond-of-honor/eager-to-accomplish-something,"
whether present or absent, = "whether in our own country or having emigrated,"
we may be accepted of Him. = "we may be fully agreeable to Him."
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; = "For all of us must be rendered apparent in front of the dais of the Messiah;"
that every one may receive the things done in his body, = "so that each one may carry off the things through the body,"
according to that he hath done, = "toward that he has accomplished,"
whether it be good or bad.= "whether good or wicked."

This is talking about the RESURRECTION! We don't want to be found naked, that is, without our bodies, but to be dressed in our NEW bodies, when "life gulps down mortality!"

None of that changes a single thing I taught in my previous post. Instead, it's right in-line with what Paul was teaching here in 2 Cor.5 about the difference between his declaration of a "spiritual body" and "image of the heavenly" vs. the "natural body" and "image of the earthy". One is a house (tabernacle) of flesh, the other one isn't. The flesh one is a temporary dwelling, not a permament dwelling like you're trying to infer.

Basically, what you're doing is trying to assign a flesh body as eternal Salvation, when Paul did not teach that.

1 Cor 15:49-51
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(KJV)

That is actually easier than simple math like 2 + 2 = 4.

And another thing, where do you think the "judgment seat of Christ" will be? There is a common belief that it will be in "Heaven," but let me ask it this way: Where would you suppose the judgment seat of the MESSIAH will be? When will the MESSIAH be given His throne? The Messiah is to be the King of Isra'el!

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

His throne - David's throne, a judgment seat - will be His when He returns! He will judge throughout the Millennium, until the last enemy, death, is finally conquered and subdued.

So, everyone will appear before His throne to be judged until all matters that need rectifying are solved. That's not just "handing out crowns" for seven years, as some believe!

Ah! So you equate the idea of being on this earth being possible ONLY with a flesh body! The angels which God sent on earth didn't have flesh bodies, yet... they were able to walk and talk on earth, and even eat man's food! (Gen.18 & 19). They appeared with the image of men, yet they were not of flesh.

Here's another Scripture you obviously deny, or think to try and change its meaning so you think you won't be in denial...

Matt 22:30
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
(KJV)

Retrobyter · Jan 4, 2012

Shalom, Buzzfruit.

Buzzfruit said:
One correction on what you have said. The New Jerusalem is the City that God will bring from Heaven to the Earth......we are not going to Heaven and Jesus never taught this and neither did the apostles.

Revelation 21:1-2 (ESV)
[sup]1 [/sup]Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
[sup]2 [/sup]And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

It’s time to stop believing false teachings that is propagated in the Church.

I really agree with you, except perhaps with the definition of "heaven": The word used in Rev. 21:2 for "heaven" is "ouranos," (NT: 3772) which means "the sky" or the "atmosphere." This is how I know that the city will land; it comes OUT of the sky; it comes OUT of the atmosphere! Little kids may draw the sky at the top of the page and the ground beneath a person's feet, but there is really no gap between the atmosphere and the earth. So, the city must land upon the New Earth.

Again, Paul and Peter and Matthew (with perhaps another person as the author of Hebrews) had another word for "above the sky": "epouranios," (NT:2032) coming from "ouranios" (NT:3770) and the prefix "epi" (NT:1909) meaning "above" or "over" or "upon." That word was either translated as "heavenly" (same as "ouranios," unfortunately) or "celestial." "Epouranios" is the ONE Greek word that could refer to "outer space." It is NOT used in Revelation 21 (although it IS used in Hebrews 12:22, referring to the current location of the New Jerusalem)!

Retrobyter · Jan 5, 2012

Shalom, veteran.

veteran said:
I never said you actually did... believe God could be flesh, but that your view on this matter would make it seem so.

Good. Just so long as we're clear, and you're not trying to paint me as some sort of heathen or something! I'd hate to have to rebuke you.

veteran said:
That verse must agree with what Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 to not fear those who can kill our flesh body but not the soul, which is more clear as to what is separated at flesh death. That Hebrews verse is about the separating of soul & spirit from... the flesh body.

The Greek has a different wording than the English versions:
28 Kai mee fobeisthe apo toon apoktennontoon to sooma teen de psucheen mee dunamenoon apokteinai; fobeisthe de mallon ton dunamenon kai psucheen kai sooma apolesai en ge-ennee.

28 Kai = 28 And
mee = not
fobeisthe = you-fear
apo = from
toon = the
apoktennontoon = killers
to = of-the
sooma = body
teen = the
de = but
psucheen = breather
mee = not
dunamenoon = able-ones
apokteinai; = to-kill;
fobeisthe = you-fear
de = but
mallon = rather
ton = the
dunamenon = able-one
kai = and/also
psucheen = breather
kai = and
sooma = body
apolesai = to-destroy
en = in
ge-ennee. = Gei-Hinnowm.

28 And don’t fear from the killers of the body but are not empowered to kill the breather; but rather fear the one able to destroy breather and body in the Valley of Hinnowm.

The valley of Hinnowm is just outside of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) in Isra'el even today! This verse is not talking about "hell"; it's talking about the Judgment Seat of the King when He is on the Throne of David during the Kingdom! Thus, the contrast is not between the immaterial and the material parts of a person but rather the natural body that can be relieved of the spirit (breath) and the body that stands before Yeshua` resurrected and permanently intact - a body with the spirit, a breather, a "soul" - as well as those who can still be relieved of their spirits (breaths)!

There are two points that need to be addressed: First, the difference between "thee" and "you" is the difference between "you singular" and "you plural." This is one of the reasons for adhering to the KJV. Modern versions that have dropped the thee's and thou's no longer make a distinction between the second person singular from the second person plural! That's unfortunate because passages like this can be misunderstood by such negligence.

Second, the job description of an Isra'eli King was not only to make decisions for the country (to rule), but also to act as the "Supreme Court" to decide between matters that could not be handled by a district judge (to judge). David's throne was a "judgment seat," a "beema" in Greek (using the "ee" for eta), a short, backless bench upon which the king would sit to decide matters that required wisdom and direction from God's Anointed.

veteran said:
Doesn't matter that Eccl.12:5-7 is Old Testament and that it does not specifically mention the word soul (nephesh), because Christ Jesus and Apostle Paul gave more detail in the NT about that very event. That shows you're wanting to rely more on the Old Testament and tradition instead updating your understanding about the soul per the New Testament, like what our Lord Jesus said in Matt.10:28 about the soul (psuche) not being killed with the flesh body.

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul (psuche): but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(KJV)

How do Christ's Own words there not... disagree with the Eccl.12:5-7 passage? Ans: one's "soul" (psuche) has to be included with that "spirit" that goes back to God Who gave it. Thus the 'soul' per New Testament doctrine is not about it being part of the flesh.

Nonsense. The Messiah did not contradict the Tanakh (the OT)! Are you meshuggah (crazy)?! Did not the same Ruach haQodesh Elohiym (the same Holy Spirit of God) inspire the writing of both, the Tanakh and the B'rit Chadashah (the New Covenant or "NT")? Since when does the Ruach haQodesh contradict Himself?!

The answer to your question is to be found in the definitions of the words you and I use. Since our definitions don't match, the same sentence you read is different from the sentence I read. It's really quite simple: Mankind is not triune. The "soul" (the "breather") is simply the combination of the "body" and the "spirit" (the "breath"):

Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV

He wasn't "given" a soul; he BECAME a living soul!

veteran said:
There's a huge difference between the sky atmosphere that surrounds the earth and the place of Heaven where God dwells. The sky around the earth is of material matter, the abode of Heaven is not, for it's simply a different 'dimension' or realm of existence.

Even in Genesis 1:1 the Hebrew for "heaven" there is plural, meaning Heaven (God's abode) and heaven (sky around the earth). So your context in translating that into "age in the skies" literally removes the idea of God's Heavenly abode altogether, when God's Heavenly abode is specific to what Paul is referring to. The idea of a house "not made with hands" should have shown you that difference also, since Paul's making a distinction with that earthy tabernacle of flesh being different than the one not made with hands that's immaterial.

...And yet, the Hebrew word for "heaven" ("shaamaayim") in Genesis 1:1, a dual word btw, not plural which is 3 or more, is the SAME WORD that is used to name the "firmament" ("raaqiya`") in Genesis 1:8, the physical substance that separated the waters above the "firmament" from the waters below the "firmament!"

Furthermore, a house "not made with hands" is simply a reference to the creative power of God in the Resurrection, who is a Spirit without human hands! It does NOT imply that the house is not material any more than Adam's physical body was implied to be immaterial when God fashioned it out of the dust of the earth!

However, you're right about one thing: my "context in translating that into 'age in the skies' literally removes the idea of God's Heavenly abode altogether." I do NOT believe in "God's Heavenly abode," except for the House He is actually designing and building for us human beings, the New Jerusalem, Yerushalayim haChadashah. If you were to ask the average Christian what "Heaven" looks like, how does he or she respond? He or she would probably respond with a quotation from Revelation 21 and 22! Y'know, streets of transparent gold, pearly gates, etc. Is he or she wrong? NO! Not when you consider that there is "heaven" or "atmosphere" within the walls of the New Jerusalem!

veteran said:
The Greek of "For in this" is important, which is Greek: gar (because) en (in) toutoi (within this). The Greek is not only about being in straits. It is pointing specifically to our being inside... something that causes us to be in straits. What is it that we are in that makes us groan to be clothed with our house from Heaven? It's our flesh body, the earthly tabernacle Paul mentioned, the one made with hands that's fleshy, material.

Just can't get around what Paul is saying there can you? Paul's making a clear distinction between an earthy flesh body and a Heavenly type body, what he called the "spiritual body" and "image of the heavenly" in 1 Cor.15. Obviously, that's not simply about a body made out of the sky atmosphere around the earth!

Once again the Greek is about those who dwell in the flesh body as a temporary residence with Greek 'skenos', we groan inside it to be clothed "with our house which is from heaven", which per the Greek is: hemon (of our) oketerion (habitation) ho (that) ek (is from) ouranos (Heaven, as the abode of God).

Why do you act like you've "killed the big one?" That's not very professional nor is it very Christian-like. It's not like I haven't thought all this through. You're writing back and forth with someone who has looked up EVERY verse in both the Tanakh and the B'rit Chadashah that has anything at all to do with "heaven, heavens, heavenly, heavenlies, air, sky, skies, and celestial!" I was using Strong's Concordance, a KJV Bible, and the Greek and Hebrew dictionaries within Strong's Concordance, an English dictionary, and Roget's Thesaurus to essentially look up every occurrence of a Greek word or a Hebrew word, like the Englishman's Concordance does, before I even knew there WAS an Englishman's Concordance! I'm not stupid, and I am tenacious about a subject until I've exhausted all leads!

I don't have to "get around" what Paul was saying in 1 Cor. 15:35-54 or 2 Cor. 5:1-10. Neither the words "epouranios" ("heavenly") nor "pneumatikos" (spiritual) imply immaterial. To the contrary, they suggest material STRENGTH! Just as the seed and the stalk of wheat are both physical in 15:37-38, so too the "psuchikos" body and the "pneumatikos" body are both physical! The difference is not "material" and "immaterial"; rather, the difference is "weak" and "strong" and BOTH are physical! Look, be more careful: It's not an "ouranios" body, a body made out of "the sky atmosphere around the earth"; it's an "EPouranios" body! A body fashioned like unto HIS glorious body which currently is in outer space, "epouranios!"

Yes, our present body is a mere "skeenee" or "tent" as an "oikia" or "home." That's why we look forward to "oikion ... aioonion," a "permanent house!" A brick house! A block house! A stone house! A concrete house!

Phil. 3:20-21
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
KJV

Luke 24:36-43
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
KJV

veteran said:
The flesh is assigned to death, period. It cannot live forever, and will not. Paul is showing that with this required change from our earthy tabernacle to another type he called our "house which is from heaven" in verse 2.

You fail to use the proper idea of Greek endemeo per the context of what's Paul been talking about. With "whilst we are at home" he was not talking about the idea of a country, but our fleshy tabernacle house as our temporary dwelling. So the KJV translators translated the idea of Greek endemeo properly with "home". The whole phrase: endemeo (at home) en (in) ho (the) soma (the body).

Greek: ekdemeo (to vacate or absent) apo (away from) ho (the) kurios (lord). Once again, the KJV translators were right-on with "we are absent from the Lord". Greek 'kurios' is used a whole lot in the NT as a title for The Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

None of that changes a single thing I taught in my previous post. Instead, it's right in-line with what Paul was teaching here in 2 Cor.5 about the difference between his declaration of a "spiritual body" and "image of the heavenly" vs. the "natural body" and "image of the earthy". One is a house (tabernacle) of flesh, the other one isn't. The flesh one is a temporary dwelling, not a permament dwelling like you're trying to infer.

Basically, what you're doing is trying to assign a flesh body as eternal Salvation, when Paul did not teach that.

1 Cor 15:49-51
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(KJV)

That is actually easier than simple math like 2 + 2 = 4.

Ah! So you equate the idea of being on this earth being possible ONLY with a flesh body! The angels which God sent on earth didn't have flesh bodies, yet... they were able to walk and talk on earth, and even eat man's food! (Gen.18 & 19). They appeared with the image of men, yet they were not of flesh.

Here's another Scripture you obviously deny, or think to try and change its meaning so you think you won't be in denial...

Matt 22:30
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
(KJV)

You are SO WRONG in all of this! Your fundamental premise, "The flesh is assigned to death, period. It cannot live forever, and will not," is CONTRARY to the Scriptures! In Matthew 22:30, Yeshua` was not saying we would be immaterial like the "messengers" (Greek: "aggeloi" transliterated as "angels"); we just won't need to be married! That's all!

Consider these verses in closing:

Rom. 8:11-23
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
KJV

Job 19:23-27
23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
KJV

Buzzfruit · Jan 5, 2012

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Buzzfruit.

I really agree with you, except perhaps with the definition of "heaven": The word used in Rev. 21:2 for "heaven" is "ouranos," (NT: 3772) which means "the sky" or the "atmosphere." This is how I know that the city will land; it comes OUT of the sky; it comes OUT of the atmosphere! Little kids may draw the sky at the top of the page and the ground beneath a person's feet, but there is really no gap between the atmosphere and the earth. So, the city must land upon the New Earth.

Again, Paul and Peter and Matthew (with perhaps another person as the author of Hebrews) had another word for "above the sky": "epouranios," (NT:2032) coming from "ouranios" (NT:3770) and the prefix "epi" (NT:1909) meaning "above" or "over" or "upon." That word was either translated as "heavenly" (same as "ouranios," unfortunately) or "celestial." "Epouranios" is the ONE Greek word that could refer to "outer space." It is NOT used in Revelation 21 (although it IS used in Hebrews 12:22, referring to the current location of the New Jerusalem)!

Paul was describing it as he saw it in his vision the way one would see it looking up to the sky, yes......but the City was not made in the sky....it was made in Heaven.....it came from God. But the bottom-line is that we are not going to Heaven to live but God is coming to the Earth to live with us.

Retrobyter · Jan 5, 2012

Shalom, Buzzfruit.

Buzzfruit said:
Paul was describing it as he saw it in his vision the way one would see it looking up to the sky, yes......but the City was not made in the sky....it was made in Heaven.....it came from God. But the bottom-line is that we are not going to Heaven to live but God is coming to the Earth to live with us.

I didn't say it was made in the sky; I said it is BEING made ABOVE the sky! Now hear this loud and clear:

THERE IS NO "HEAVEN!!!"

It doesn't exist! The closest thing to it that the Scriptures talk about is the New Jerusalem! Again, when people talk about "Heaven" what do they usually describe? Don't they talk about "pearly gates" and "streets of gold," even "transparent gold?" These are descriptions of the New Jerusalem, NOT "HEAVEN!" (Rev. 21:21) Where is the "throne of God and of the Lamb?" It's in the New Jerusalem! (Rev. 22:3) Where is the "river of the water of life?" It's within the New Jerusalem! (Rev. 22:1) Where is the "tree of life?" It's within the New Jerusalem! (Rev. 22:2)

Now, if you want to say that there's "heaven" WITHIN the New Jerusalem, I will agree with you. There IS a "sky" or an "atmosphere" within the New Jerusalem!

We're still stuck in the mentality and the conclusions of the "brilliant minds" of the DARK AGES!

Buzzfruit · Jan 5, 2012

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Buzzfruit.

I didn't say it was made in the sky; I said it is BEING made ABOVE the sky! Now hear this loud and clear:

THERE IS NO "HEAVEN!!!"

It doesn't exist! The closest thing to it that the Scriptures talk about is the New Jerusalem! Again, when people talk about "Heaven" what do they usually describe? Don't they talk about "pearly gates" and "streets of gold," even "transparent gold?" These are descriptions of the New Jerusalem, NOT "HEAVEN!" (Rev. 21:21) Where is the "throne of God and of the Lamb?" It's in the New Jerusalem! (Rev. 22:3) Where is the "river of the water of life?" It's within the New Jerusalem! (Rev. 22:1) Where is the "tree of life?" It's within the New Jerusalem! (Rev. 22:2)

Now, if you want to say that there's "heaven" WITHIN the New Jerusalem, I will agree with you. There IS a "sky" or an "atmosphere" within the New Jerusalem!

We're still stuck in the mentality and the conclusions of the "brilliant minds" of the DARK AGES!

Revelation 21:21 and Revelation 21:1 are both talking about future events not what it is now is. What is being described in those two verses is what the Earth will be......John was describing what he saw in a vision of the future.....the City or the New Jerusalem will descend from God out of the third Heaven to the Earth.

So I don't know where you get the idea that there is no Heaven when Jesus mentioned it. Jesus said the Father is in Heaven. Even the Temple that the Israelites were commanded to build was an exact pattern of what was in Heaven.

Matthew 10:33 (ASV)
[sup]33 [/sup]But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father who is in heaven.
Jesus preached about the kingdom of Heaven.

Matthew 3:2 (KJV)
[sup]2 [/sup]And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Angels of God are in Heaven.

Matthew 18:10 (ASV)
[sup]10 [/sup]See that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, that in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven.

God's throne is in Heaven.

Psalms 11:4 (KJV)
[sup]4 [/sup]The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.

The Heaven that is mentioned in all the verses above is the third Heaven and not the sky or the universe.....the third Heaven is not part of the physical world.

Retrobyter · Jan 6, 2012

Shalom, Buzzfruit.

Buzzfruit said:
Revelation 21:21 and Revelation 21:1 are both talking about future events not what it is now is. What is being described in those two verses is what the Earth will be......John was describing what he saw in a vision of the future.....the City or the New Jerusalem will descend from God out of the third Heaven to the Earth.

So I don't know where you get the idea that there is no Heaven when Jesus mentioned it. Jesus said the Father is in Heaven. Even the Temple that the Israelites were commanded to build was an exact pattern of what was in Heaven.

Matthew 10:33 (ASV)
[sup]33 [/sup]But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father who is in heaven.
Jesus preached about the kingdom of Heaven.

Matthew 3:2 (KJV)
[sup]2 [/sup]And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Angels of God are in Heaven.

Matthew 18:10 (ASV)
[sup]10 [/sup]See that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, that in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven.

God's throne is in Heaven.

Psalms 11:4 (KJV)
[sup]4 [/sup]The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.

The Heaven that is mentioned in all the verses above is the third Heaven and not the sky or the universe.....the third Heaven is not part of the physical world.

First, let me re-introduce you to 2 Peter 3:3-13:

2 Peter 3:3-13
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV

Please understand that the concept of the "third heaven" that most accept today I saw first stated flatly in a Scofield Reference Bible, KJV. Scofield said on page 1238 that the "first heaven, of clouds; second heaven, of stars; third heaven, God's abode." He made this statement without a Bible reference or any biblical justification for the statement whatsoever! This is a concept based on 1-2-3 being a spatial reference from the surface of the earth.

HOWEVER, Peter's explanation above says that the 1-2-3 of "heaven" should be CHRONOLOGICAL, a reference to time! The first "heavens" (Greek: ouranoi = "skies") were before the Flood of Noach's day; the second "heavens" were after the Flood but before the Fire "against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men," and the third "heavens" will be after the Fire - the "new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." All three are the Greek word "ouranoi!" All three are references to the "skies," the "atmosphere" around our planet earth!

I don't know about you, but I prefer Peter's explanation of a "third heaven" to that of Scofield!

Now, for each of the verses that you quoted above, there are simple explanations: For instance, yes, Yeshua` heralded a "Kingdom from the sky" or a "Kingdom from God," but not a Kingdom ABOVE the sky in some ethereal place called "Heaven!"

Neither Revelation 21:1-2 nor Revelation 21:10-12 say ANYTHING about a "THIRD heaven!" That's YOUR assumption and YOUR addition! All the Scriptures say is,...

Rev 21:1-2
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
KJV

Rev 21:10-12
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
KJV

(Rev. 21:21 doesn't even say ANYTHING close!)

Yes, Yeshua` DID say that His Father was in the sky, but then the Scriptures also say,...

1 Kings 8:27
27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
KJV

2 Chron. 2:6
6 But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?
KJV

2 Chron. 6:18
18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!
KJV

In theology, we say that God is OMNIPRESENT! How can He have an "abode," as Scofield said? God is in the sky, but He is not LIMITED to the sky!

Buzzfruit · Jan 6, 2012

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Buzzfruit.

First, let me re-introduce you to 2 Peter 3:3-13:

2 Peter 3:3-13
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV

Please understand that the concept of the "third heaven" that most accept today I saw first stated flatly in a Scofield Reference Bible, KJV. Scofield said on page 1238 that the "first heaven, of clouds; second heaven, of stars; third heaven, God's abode." He made this statement without a Bible reference or any biblical justification for the statement whatsoever! This is a concept based on 1-2-3 being a spatial reference from the surface of the earth.

HOWEVER, Peter's explanation above says that the 1-2-3 of "heaven" should be CHRONOLOGICAL, a reference to time! The first "heavens" (Greek: ouranoi = "skies") were before the Flood of Noach's day; the second "heavens" were after the Flood but before the Fire "against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men," and the third "heavens" will be after the Fire - the "new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." All three are the Greek word "ouranoi!" All three are references to the "skies," the "atmosphere" around our planet earth!

I don't know about you, but I prefer Peter's explanation of a "third heaven" to that of Scofield!

Now, for each of the verses that you quoted above, there are simple explanations: For instance, yes, Yeshua` heralded a "Kingdom from the sky" or a "Kingdom from God," but not a Kingdom ABOVE the sky in some ethereal place called "Heaven!"

Neither Revelation 21:1-2 nor Revelation 21:10-12 say ANYTHING about a "THIRD heaven!" That's YOUR assumption and YOUR addition! All the Scriptures say is,...

Rev 21:1-2
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
KJV

Rev 21:10-12
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
KJV

(Rev. 21:21 doesn't even say ANYTHING close!)

Yes, Yeshua` DID say that His Father was in the sky, but then the Scriptures also say,...

1 Kings 8:27
27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
KJV

2 Chron. 2:6
6 But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?
KJV

2 Chron. 6:18
18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!
KJV

In theology, we say that God is OMNIPRESENT! How can He have an "abode," as Scofield said? God is in the sky, but He is not LIMITED to the sky!

Boy you are so in error I don't even know where to start......I don't have the time right now to get into all your errors but I will touch on one or two. You use many scriptures but without understanding of them.

The heavens were created in the beginning of creation.

Genesis 1:1 (ASV)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 Peter 3:7 is saying that the Earth and the heavens as it is now will be destroyed by fire. This is supported by 2 Peter 3:10.

2 Peter 3:10 (KJV)
[sup]10 [/sup]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

God does not live in the sky....His throne is not in the sky and the gospel that Jesus preached is not from the sky. When God inspire the men of God to speak or write down what He has to say they use words that human beings can identify with. God did not invent the world heaven.....man did. The Bible use words such as father and king for example to tell us what God is. The same is so for the world heaven. So when God inspire the prophets and the third Heaven is use we should understand that it is not the sky that it is talking about, but a place that is not part of our physical world or universe.

Retrobyter · Jan 7, 2012

Shalom, Buzzfruit.

Buzzfruit said:
Boy you are so in error I don't even know where to start......I don't have the time right now to get into all your errors but I will touch on one or two. You use many scriptures but without understanding of them.

You may CLAIM I'm "in error," but that doesn't PROVE I'm in error. I believe that YOU are in error - not on purpose, just misled by others. I use many Scriptures because they are the ONLY way to understand the truth! I DO understand them and study them at their fundamental levels! I'm truly sorry that you cannot or will not take the time to digest what I am saying. I believe that there will be MANY Christians who struggle with the paradigm shifts that Yeshua` will make in our thinking when He returns. Some of us may take a half a millennium before we overcome some of the deep-rooted errors of thought we've been taught and have come to accept as truth!

So many Christians I have met on these forums take an "I know what I believe; don't confuse me with the facts" stance, that it is HARD to find a person open-minded enough to consider the possibility that they have been (accidentally) taught false teachings!

Buzzfruit said:
The heavens were created in the beginning of creation.

Genesis 1:1 (ASV)
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Not quite. See, Jewish literature always begins with a summary of the details to follow. Genesis 1 and 2 are no exception. Genesis 1:1 is a summary statement - a heading, if you'd rather - for what is to follow. God DID create the "heavens" and the "earth," just not at the very beginning of the week!

Here's a transliteration of the Hebrew of Genesis 1:1, 6-10

Bereshiyt 1:1
1 B-ree’shiyt baaraa’ Elohiym eet ha-shaamayim v-eet haa-‘aarets:
…

6 Va-yo’mer Elohiym, “Yhiy raaqiya` b-towkh ha-maayim vi-yhiy maVdiyl beeyn mayim laamaayim.”
7 Va-ya`as Elohiym et haaraaqiya` vayaVdeel beeyn ha-mayim asher mitachat laa-raaqiya` uw-Veeyn ha-mayim asher mee`al laa-raaqiya`, va-yhiy keen.
8 Va-yiqraa’ Elohiym laa-raaqiya` “shaamaayim.” Va-yhiy `ereV va-yhiy boqer yowm sheeniy.

9 Va-yo’mer Elohiym, “Yiqaavuw ha-mayim mitachat ha-shaamayim el maaqowm echaad v-teeraa’eh ha-yabaashaah.” Va-yhiy keen.
10 Va-yiqraa’ Elohiym la-yabaashaah, “Erets,” uw-l-miqveeh ha-mayim qaaraa’ “Yamiym.” Va-yar’ Elohiym kiy TowV.

The same word translated as "heaven" (or "heavens") in verse 1 is the same word used in verse 8, and the same word translated "earth" in verse 1 is the same word used in verse 10! It was on Day 2 that God put an expanse (raaqiya`) between "the waters above the expanse" (ha-mayim asher mitachat laa-raaqiya`) and "the waters below the expanse" (ha-mayim asher mee`al laa-raaqiya`) and then NAMED that expanse, "SHAAMAYIM," the "SKIES," and it was translated as "HEAVEN" or "HEAVENS!"

It was on Day 3 that God gathered together the waters under the expanse called "shaamayim" and then called that gathering of waters "Seas" ("Yamiym"). In gathering the waters He caused the dry land (ha-yabaashaah) to appear and He named that dry land "EARTH" ("ERETS")!

Buzzfruit said:
2 Peter 3:7 is saying that the Earth and the heavens as it is now will be destroyed by fire. This is supported by 2 Peter 3:10.

2 Peter 3:10 (KJV)
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

This is true, but not the entire globe and not some fictional, ethereal place called "Heaven!" Kefa (Peter) is talking about the Earth and the Skies will be destroyed by fire and only the surface of the earth at that - the LAND! As I've said before, why should God destroy the entire 6.6 sextillion tons of earth's matter if mankind has only marred to first mile of depth?! The earth is almost 8000 miles in diameter; that means that there are almost 4000 miles to the center of the earth and we've only messed up the "peel of the apple" and have touched NONE of its mantle or core; so, why destroy the WHOLE earth?! That's NOT what Kefa was teaching!

Buzzfruit said:
God does not live in the sky....His throne is not in the sky and the gospel that Jesus preached is not from the sky. When God inspire the men of God to speak or write down what He has to say they use words that human beings can identify with. God did not invent the world heaven.....man did. The Bible use words such as father and king for example to tell us what God is. The same is so for the world heaven. So when God inspire the prophets and the third Heaven is use we should understand that it is not the sky that it is talking about, but a place that is not part of our physical world or universe.

Sure He does! He lives in the sky, He lives in the ground, He lives in the oceans, He lives in outer space, He lives on every planet in our solar system, He lives on and in every quasar, every nebula, every star, every galaxy, and every galaxy cluster in the known universe and beyond what we "know!" He is OMNIPRESENT! He is EVERYWHERE, in EVERY PLACE and ALL THE TIME! That's why Shlomo (Solomon) said,

2 Chron. 6:18
18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!
KJV

The first word "heaven" is the same Hebrew word, "shaamaayim," and it means the "skies." The second phrase "heaven of heavens" is the Hebrew phrase, "shaameey shaamaayim," and it can refer to outer space where the sun, moon, and stars exist. The first word is the "expanse" of gases that make up our atmosphere, but the "expanse of the expanse" is where the gases are rarefied until they are empty space!

No! No, His throne is NOT in the sky. His throne is BEYOND the sky! His throne (which is also the throne of His Son Yeshua`) is within Yerushalayim haChadashah (the New Jerusalem) being constructed somewhere out in space!

Rev. 21:1-22:4
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
KJV

Heb. 12:22-24
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
KJV

John 14:2
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
KJV

Thus, His Father's house is still UNDER CONSTRUCTION, Yeshua` making another place for each new person who comes to "accept Him as Lord and Savior." However, it exists NOW as a "heavenly Jerusalem" and that word "heavenly" is the Greek word "epouranios" which means "ABOVE the sky!" In the future, after the earth and the sky have been re-created once again as the third earth and the third sky (the third heaven, according to Kefa), the New Jerusalem will descend and land upon the New Earth and so begins our eternity with Him. However, the New Jerusalem doesn't descend and land on the earth until AFTER the millennium, the first 1000 years of Yeshua`s reign.

veteran · Jan 7, 2012

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, veteran.

Good. Just so long as we're clear, and you're not trying to paint me as some sort of heathen or something! I'd hate to have to rebuke you.

That spiteful attitude doesn't go along with your "Shalom, veteran" salutation, just so you know.

The Greek has a different wording than the English versions:

Already been there, done that. You have not disproved what I already revealed simply from the Greek in my previous posts. No need to repeat your unfounded claim as to different meanings again; meanings that you cannot get away from.

28 And don’t fear from the killers of the body but are not empowered to kill the breather; but rather fear the one able to destroy breather and body in the Valley of Hinnowm.

The valley of Hinnowm is just outside of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) in Isra'el even today! This verse is not talking about "hell"; it's talking about the Judgment Seat of the King when He is on the Throne of David during the Kingdom! Thus, the contrast is not between the immaterial and the material parts of a person but rather the natural body that can be relieved of the spirit (breath) and the body that stands before Yeshua` resurrected and permanently intact - a body with the spirit, a breather, a "soul" - as well as those who can still be relieved of their spirits (breaths)!

I'm well aware the Greek word there is a word for the Hebrew valley of Hinnom where fallen Israel sacrificed their children in the fire like a bunch of ignorant pagans, an idea God said didn't even come into His mind. Uh,... that verse IS specifically talking about the "lake of fire" event at the end of Rev.20. That's HOW Christ is representing the valley of Hinnom. In Jer.19 God says one day that valley won't be called Hinnom anymore, but instead "the valley of slaughter"! Why? Because THAT valley of Hinnom fire represents the future "lake of fire" event of Rev.20! How is you have not read that? God also uses the name Tophet for the idea of that "lake of fire" event where the devil will perish (per isaiah 30:33).

Oh, and the devil, Satan, that old serpent, he doesn't have a flesh body. But he has a soul and a spirit, and that's what specifically goes into the "lake of fire". And that's the type burning Christ Jesus is warning of in the Matt.10:28 verse, which again reads...

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul (Greek psuche) and body in hell (geena from Hebrew for Valley of Hinnom).
(KJV)

Greek psuche = breath, spirit, soul. That's IMMATERIAL matter by the way. Definitely NOT of flesh.

There are two points that need to be addressed: First, the difference between "thee" and "you" is the difference between "you singular" and "you plural." This is one of the reasons for adhering to the KJV. Modern versions that have dropped the thee's and thou's no longer make a distinction between the second person singular from the second person plural! That's unfortunate because passages like this can be misunderstood by such negligence.

That's completely irrelevant to the subject of Matt.10:28. You're beating around the bush, which I'm not going to address your later unrelated tirades either.

Nonsense. The Messiah did not contradict the Tanakh (the OT)! Are you meshuggah (crazy)?! Did not the same Ruach haQodesh Elohiym (the same Holy Spirit of God) inspire the writing of both, the Tanakh and the B'rit Chadashah (the New Covenant or "NT")? Since when does the Ruach haQodesh contradict Himself?!

You haven't found me saying either of those Eccl.12:5-7 and Matt.10:28 Scriptures contradict each other. Instead, I declared how they support each other, but with Matt.10:28 giving MORE DETAIL of what happens after death of the flesh body. Do you like to create seeming contradictions in discussions with other people?

The answer to your question is to be found in the definitions of the words you and I use. Since our definitions don't match, the same sentence you read is different from the sentence I read. It's really quite simple: Mankind is not triune. The "soul" (the "breather") is simply the combination of the "body" and the "spirit" (the "breath"):

Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV

He wasn't "given" a soul; he BECAME a living soul!

Still can't get around what Jesus said in Matt.10:28 can you, to not fear those who kill the flesh, but cannot kill the psuche (soul - breath). When God BREATHED the "breath of life" into dust from the ground, THAT dust was NOT the BREATH (equivalent to Greek psuche for soul). Just like Eccl.12:5-7 teaches, that at death the flesh body of dust goes BACK to the dust of the earth where... it came from, and the spirit goes back... to God Who gave it.

Thus, thinking that the soul is a by-product of the spirit joined with flesh contradicts what Christ taught about the soul in Matthew 10:28. It CANNOT be destroyed by flesh death. By that verse a little child can recognize that means that soul part has continued... existence after flesh death! It goes back to God Who GAVE it.

Heb 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
(KJV)

That's another one of Paul's comparisons of the difference between flesh and spirit, pointing to two different dimensions of existence.

...And yet, the Hebrew word for "heaven" ("shaamaayim") in Genesis 1:1, a dual word btw, not plural which is 3 or more, is the SAME WORD that is used to name the "firmament" ("raaqiya`") in Genesis 1:8, the physical substance that separated the waters above the "firmament" from the waters below the "firmament!"

Pretty obvious not all Bible usage of a word is for the same exact thing, like the idea of the valley of Hinnom for "hell" by Christ Jesus in Matthew 10:28. Thus seeking to always apply the atmospheric sky around the earth as the only meaning for heaven is beyond ignorance.

Furthermore, a house "not made with hands" is simply a reference to the creative power of God in the Resurrection, who is a Spirit without human hands! It does NOT imply that the house is not material any more than Adam's physical body was implied to be immaterial when God fashioned it out of the dust of the earth!

You're wrong again. Paul is using the idea of house in a metaphorical sense. A whole lot of The Bible is written using real everyday objects in a metaphorical or symbolic sense. Hard to express how much the Bible student would miss by not being able to grasp that fact. Therefore, I think you know better than to treat Paul's usage of a 'house' for an immaterial spiritual body as if he were speaking of some material object. It shows your even in denial of the "spiritual body" and "image of the heavenly" concepts which Apostle Paul also taught in 1 Cor.15.

However, you're right about one thing: my "context in translating that into 'age in the skies' literally removes the idea of God's Heavenly abode altogether." I do NOT believe in "God's Heavenly abode," except for the House He is actually designing and building for us human beings, the New Jerusalem, Yerushalayim haChadashah. If you were to ask the average Christian what "Heaven" looks like, how does he or she respond? He or she would probably respond with a quotation from Revelation 21 and 22! Y'know, streets of transparent gold, pearly gates, etc. Is he or she wrong? NO! Not when you consider that there is "heaven" or "atmosphere" within the walls of the New Jerusalem!

That explains why you're missing out on a whole lot of things about the Heavenly written in God's Word, specifically the change at the twinkling of eye that Apostle Paul taught about in relation to certain events in Isaiah 25. You've also obviously missed out on what Peter taught about Christ at His resurrection going to preach The Gospel to the "spirits in prison". That's not to mention what your Jewish traditions do to Paul's teaching about the saints that have already passed on from this world. They are not in some hole in the ground out in the backyard.

Why do you act like you've "killed the big one?" That's not very professional nor is it very Christian-like. It's not like I haven't thought all this through. You're writing back and forth with someone who has looked up EVERY verse in both the Tanakh and the B'rit Chadashah that has anything at all to do with "heaven, heavens, heavenly, heavenlies, air, sky, skies, and celestial!" I was using Strong's Concordance, a KJV Bible, and the Greek and Hebrew dictionaries within Strong's Concordance, an English dictionary, and Roget's Thesaurus to essentially look up every occurrence of a Greek word or a Hebrew word, like the Englishman's Concordance does, before I even knew there WAS an Englishman's Concordance! I'm not stupid, and I am tenacious about a subject until I've exhausted all leads!

Oh, excuse my little ole' ignorance, afterall I'm a Christian and a Gentile, and a Sotherner by the Grace of God, and what would someone like me know about such things? "Is'a don't know any thang bout delivrn no babies!" Christians know a lot more than Jewish tradition gives them credit. Those who are prideful in their traditions and philosophy actually can't match the wisdom given to the simple Christian through Christ Jesus by The Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 3:19-20
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
(KJV)

Your leads have missed the mark, because after all that study, you've still failed to rely on one simple thing; simple common sense reasoning by The Holy Spirit. That's how the seemingly difficult is made simple.

Let's do a recount:

You don't believe a Heavenly Abode where God dwells exists. That idea suggests that God does not exist, since to you the word heaven always means the atmospheric sky around the earth. Now that idea really is... crazy! Is that the deductive reasoning one is to use because of your disbelief about God's Heavenly Abode being a real place, just not in the dimension we are in?

I don't have to "get around" what Paul was saying in 1 Cor. 15:35-54 or 2 Cor. 5:1-10. Neither the words "epouranios" ("heavenly") nor "pneumatikos" (spiritual) imply immaterial. To the contrary, they suggest material STRENGTH! Just as the seed and the stalk of wheat are both physical in 15:37-38, so too the "psuchikos" body and the "pneumatikos" body are both physical! The difference is not "material" and "immaterial"; rather, the difference is "weak" and "strong" and BOTH are physical! Look, be more careful: It's not an "ouranios" body, a body made out of "the sky atmosphere around the earth"; it's an "EPouranios" body! A body fashioned like unto HIS glorious body which currently is in outer space, "epouranios!"

You and I definitely do not study with the same groups of Bible scholars. Those Bible references you quoted earlier obviously haven't done you much good. And getting around... is exactly the thing you're trying to do by your misuse of those works. An example?...

So Christ Jesus did NOT ascend to God's Heavenly Abode to sit on His right hand as written? He only ascended into the SKY of "outer space" and that's it!?! Is He up there flying around with the rockets and satellites and stuff then? You do... realize such a belief as that links your thinking to ideas like God could be an alien and there's life on other planets, don't you?

Our Heavenly Father and His Son are not aliens, nor part of the UFO phenomenon. There is no such thing as aliens. If anything, those evidence of the fallen angels popping in between the two dimensions of the earthly and the heavenly. What your belief also suggests that God's Own Image is not really Spirit as written, but made up of material matter, since for ANYTHING to exist in "outer space" it also must have physical MASS and WEIGHT according to God's laws of natural physics. You do realize the sky atmosphere around the earth is made up of material matter that has mass and weight, don't you?

Sorry, that's all the ludicrous nonsense I can take with your crazy thinking. Good luck to you, you're gonna' need it.

Buzzfruit · Jan 8, 2012

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Buzzfruit.

You may CLAIM I'm "in error," but that doesn't PROVE I'm in error. I believe that YOU are in error - not on purpose, just misled by others. I use many Scriptures because they are the ONLY way to understand the truth! I DO understand them and study them at their fundamental levels! I'm truly sorry that you cannot or will not take the time to digest what I am saying. I believe that there will be MANY Christians who struggle with the paradigm shifts that Yeshua` will make in our thinking when He returns. Some of us may take a half a millennium before we overcome some of the deep-rooted errors of thought we've been taught and have come to accept as truth!

So many Christians I have met on these forums take an "I know what I believe; don't confuse me with the facts" stance, that it is HARD to find a person open-minded enough to consider the possibility that they have been (accidentally) taught false teachings!

Using many scriptures does not automatically mean you understand those scriptures…..the religious leaders in Jesus’ day knew the scriptures but they did not understand it, or else they would not have treated Jesus the way they did. So you can be convinced that you are correct in what you believe but still be in error.

Retrobyter said:
Not quite. See, Jewish literature always begins with a summary of the details to follow. Genesis 1 and 2 are no exception. Genesis 1:1 is a summary statement - a heading, if you'd rather - for what is to follow. God DID create the "heavens" and the "earth," just not at the very beginning of the week!

But it still does not change the fact that it says IN the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth. It is summarizing what God did in the beginning and one of the things He did in the beginning was to create the heavens and the Earth. So the Earth and the heavens were created before man was made.

Retrobyter said:
The same word translated as "heaven" (or "heavens") in verse 1 is the same word used in verse 8, and the same word translated "earth" in verse 1 is the same word used in verse 10! It was on Day 2 that God put an expanse (raaqiya`) between "the waters above the expanse" (ha-mayim asher mitachat laa-raaqiya`) and "the waters below the expanse" (ha-mayim asher mee`al laa-raaqiya`) and then NAMED that expanse, "SHAAMAYIM," the "SKIES," and it was translated as "HEAVEN" or "HEAVENS!"

It was on Day 3 that God gathered together the waters under the expanse called "shaamayim" and then called that gathering of waters "Seas" ("Yamiym"). In gathering the waters He caused the dry land (ha-yabaashaah) to appear and He named that dry land "EARTH" ("ERETS")!

If you were God and you are talking to man and you wanted him to understand something that he has never seen or experienced, how would you get your thoughts across to him? Would it not make sense to use words and experiences that he can identify with? All human languages were created around man’s experiences not God’s or even spirit. So to assume that just because the word Greek word οὐρανός – ouranos or the Hebrew word שָׁמַיִם‎ shāmayim = sky does not mean that the abode of God is literally the physical sky. The Hebrew and Greek words and even the English word sky that are used are the closest thing possible that can give us an idea of what God is telling us about Heaven.

Retrobyter said:
This is true, but not the entire globe and not some fictional, ethereal place called "Heaven!" Kefa (Peter) is talking about the Earth and the Skies will be destroyed by fire and only the surface of the earth at that - the LAND! As I've said before, why should God destroy the entire 6.6 sextillion tons of earth's matter if mankind has only marred to first mile of depth?! The earth is almost 8000 miles in diameter; that means that there are almost 4000 miles to the center of the earth and we've only messed up the "peel of the apple" and have touched NONE of its mantle or core; so, why destroy the WHOLE earth?! That's NOT what Kefa was teaching!

I did not said nor did I imply that the Earth would be destroyed.

Retrobyter said:
Not

Sure He does! He lives in the sky, He lives in the ground, He lives in the oceans, He lives in outer space, He lives on every planet in our solar system, He lives on and in every quasar, every nebula, every star, every galaxy, and every galaxy cluster in the known universe and beyond what we "know!" He is OMNIPRESENT! He is EVERYWHERE, in EVERY PLACE and ALL THE TIME! That's why Shlomo (Solomon) said,

2 Chron. 6:18
18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!
KJV

The first word "heaven" is the same Hebrew word, "shaamaayim," and it means the "skies." The second phrase "heaven of heavens" is the Hebrew phrase, "shaameey shaamaayim," and it can refer to outer space where the sun, moon, and stars exist. The first word is the "expanse" of gases that make up our atmosphere, but the "expanse of the expanse" is where the gases are rarefied until they are empty space!

That is not my point and not the point when Jesus said the Father is in Heaven.

Matthew 5:16 (ASV)
[sup]16 [/sup]Even so let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

So I know that God’s presence is everywhere……even where not even empty space exist. But I am talking about where God’s government is administered and His will is carried out from.

Retrobyter said:
No! No, His throne is NOT in the sky. His throne is BEYOND the sky! His throne (which is also the throne of His Son Yeshua`) is within Yerushalayim haChadashah (the New Jerusalem) being constructed somewhere out in space!

Rev. 21:1-22:4
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
KJV

Heb. 12:22-24
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
KJV

There is no scripture in anyone of those verses that says what you are saying. The verse is actually talking about the people of God. The word mountain or mount in the Bible is sometimes used for Nations or people…..Spirit filled men and women of God are a Nation. The City is not just buildings it also includes the people. So in effect the Church is the new Jerusalem, minus the literal building that God will bring from Heaven.

Retrobyter said:
John 14:2
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
KJV

Thus, His Father's house is still UNDER CONSTRUCTION, Yeshua` making another place for each new person who comes to "accept Him as Lord and Savior." However, it exists NOW as a "heavenly Jerusalem" and that word "heavenly" is the Greek word "epouranios" which means "ABOVE the sky!" In the future, after the earth and the sky have been re-created once again as the third earth and the third sky (the third heaven, according to Kefa), the New Jerusalem will descend and land upon the New Earth and so begins our eternity with Him. However, the New Jerusalem doesn't descend and land on the earth until AFTER the millennium, the first 1000 years of Yeshua`s reign.

The word in the Greek that this translated house is οἰκία does not mean house. It means residence or abode…..God’s abode or resides in Heaven.

Retrobyter · Jan 10, 2012

Shalom, Buzzfruit.

Buzzfruit said:
Using many scriptures does not automatically mean you understand those scriptures…..the religious leaders in Jesus’ day knew the scriptures but they did not understand it, or else they would not have treated Jesus the way they did. So you can be convinced that you are correct in what you believe but still be in error.

Yes, you're right. But, remember: THIS "sword" cuts both ways! That can also be true in what you believe, as well!

Buzzfruit said:
But it still does not change the fact that it says IN the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth. It is summarizing what God did in the beginning and one of the things He did in the beginning was to create the heavens and the Earth. So the Earth and the heavens were created before man was made.

Well, can't argue with that. But, what does THAT prove about God's "abode?" NOTHING! For me, it simply means that the "heavens and the earth" are the PHYSICAL components of our biosphere: the skies and the land. It does NOT mean "the immaterial and the material" NOR does it mean "the 'spiritual' and the physical!"

Buzzfruit said:
If you were God and you are talking to man and you wanted him to understand something that he has never seen or experienced, how would you get your thoughts across to him? Would it not make sense to use words and experiences that he can identify with? All human languages were created around man’s experiences not God’s or even spirit. So to assume that just because the word Greek word οὐρανός – ouranos or the Hebrew word שָׁמַיִם‎ shāmayim = sky does not mean that the abode of God is literally the physical sky. The Hebrew and Greek words and even the English word sky that are used are the closest thing possible that can give us an idea of what God is telling us about Heaven.

Again, I didn't say that God's abode was ONLY the physical sky! It's MUCH more! HOWEVER, there is not some other-world realm where God lives! (UNLESS, you want to count it as the New Jerusalem, since the Scriptures DO talk about that place.)

Buzzfruit said:
I did not said nor did I imply that the Earth would be destroyed.

Good. Then we're in agreement on at least that point.

Buzzfruit said:
That is not my point and not the point when Jesus said the Father is in Heaven.

Matthew 5:16 (ASV)
[sup]16 [/sup]Even so let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

So I know that God’s presence is everywhere……even where not even empty space exist. But I am talking about where God’s government is administered and His will is carried out from.

Yes, but don't you see? His will - His desire - what He wants done - is administered and carried out from WHEREVER God is and EVERYWHERE that God is! We are to look up into the skies and see that there's MORE than just what we experience on the ground! Furthermore, even in His model prayer, commonly called the "Lord's Prayer," we are to remind ourselves in the praying, "Let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven (in the skies)!" At that time, mankind could not reach the skies; therefore, they were the area we can see that is untouchable and hasn't been defiled and corrupted by mankind! So, our prayer for God to "let His will be done on earth" is to extend His government to include all of mankind, as well.

Buzzfruit said:
There is no scripture in anyone of those verses that says what you are saying. The verse is actually talking about the people of God. The word mountain or mount in the Bible is sometimes used for Nations or people…..Spirit filled men and women of God are a Nation. The City is not just buildings it also includes the people. So in effect the Church is the new Jerusalem, minus the literal building that God will bring from Heaven.

And, HERE'S the rub! YOU are saying that "mountain means nations or people" (I've heard it as "mountain means kingdom") and is thus an analogy for nations or people. I don't. I believe the "mountain of the LORD'S house" is LITERAL! I mean, what could be a more LITERAL mountain than a city that stands 1500 MILES HIGH?! Don't let the allegorical interpretation rob you of the wonder of a literal city!

Buzzfruit said:
The word in the Greek that this translated house is οἰκία does not mean house. It means residence or abode…..God’s abode or resides in Heaven.

And, here we are. God may abide in "heaven" but that does NOT mean that it has to be in a place OTHER than the skies and outer space!

So, we are at an impasse. I've at least given you my view, and I've taken pains to be sure that it is consistent with other places of Scripture, but I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree if you continue to think of "Heaven" in the thinking mode of the Dark Ages.

Life is a smorgasbord of ideas; take what you want and leave the rest. Some things will have to remain unsolved until Yeshua` returns and straightens us both out!

Buzzfruit · Jan 10, 2012

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Buzzfruit.

Yes, you're right. But, remember: THIS "sword" cuts both ways! That can also be true in what you believe, as well!

Well, can't argue with that. But, what does THAT prove about God's "abode?" NOTHING! For me, it simply means that the "heavens and the earth" are the PHYSICAL components of our biosphere: the skies and the land. It does NOT mean "the immaterial and the material" NOR does it mean "the 'spiritual' and the physical!"

[/color]

Again, I didn't say that God's abode was ONLY the physical sky! It's MUCH more! HOWEVER, there is not some other-world realm where God lives! (UNLESS, you want to count it as the New Jerusalem, since the Scriptures DO talk about that place.)

Good. Then we're in agreement on at least that point.

Yes, but don't you see? His will - His desire - what He wants done - is administered and carried out from WHEREVER God is and EVERYWHERE that God is! We are to look up into the skies and see that there's MORE than just what we experience on the ground! Furthermore, even in His model prayer, commonly called the "Lord's Prayer," we are to remind ourselves in the praying, "Let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven (in the skies)!" At that time, mankind could not reach the skies; therefore, they were the area we can see that is untouchable and hasn't been defiled and corrupted by mankind! So, our prayer for God to "let His will be done on earth" is to extend His government to include all of mankind, as well.

And, HERE'S the rub! YOU are saying that "mountain means nations or people" (I've heard it as "mountain means kingdom") and is thus an analogy for nations or people. I don't. I believe the "mountain of the LORD'S house" is LITERAL! I mean, what could be a more LITERAL mountain than a city that stands 1500 MILES HIGH?! Don't let the allegorical interpretation rob you of the wonder of a literal city!

And, here we are. God may abide in "heaven" but that does NOT mean that it has to be in a place OTHER than the skies and outer space!

So, we are at an impasse. I've at least given you my view, and I've taken pains to be sure that it is consistent with other places of Scripture, but I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree if you continue to think of "Heaven" in the thinking mode of the Dark Ages.

Life is a smorgasbord of ideas; take what you want and leave the rest. Some things will have to remain unsolved until Yeshua` returns and straightens us both out!

As you wish and I am not in the lest convince of your opinion as you are of it.

Retrobyter · Jan 11, 2012

Shalom, veteran.

veteran said:
Retrobyter, on 05 January 2012 - 02:19 AM, said:
Shalom, veteran.

Good. Just so long as we're clear, and you're not trying to paint me as some sort of heathen or something! I'd hate to have to rebuke you.
That spiteful attitude doesn't go along with your "Shalom, veteran" salutation, just so you know.

First, allow me to apologize; my statement “I’d hate to have to rebuke you” was meant as a JOKE! Guess veiled attempts at humor are easily missed in writing. I truly am sorry that you took it for being a “spiteful attitude.” That was certainly NOT my intent. I’m not the greatest user of emoticons, but I probably should have added a smiley face or something.
…

veteran said:
Quote
28 And don’t fear from the killers of the body but are not empowered to kill the breather; but rather fear the one able to destroy breather and body in the Valley of Hinnowm.

The valley of Hinnowm is just outside of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) in Isra'el even today! This verse is not talking about "hell"; it's talking about the Judgment Seat of the King when He is on the Throne of David during the Kingdom! Thus, the contrast is not between the immaterial and the material parts of a person but rather the natural body that can be relieved of the spirit (breath) and the body that stands before Yeshua` resurrected and permanently intact - a body with the spirit, a breather, a "soul" - as well as those who can still be relieved of their spirits (breaths)!

I'm well aware the Greek word there is a word for the Hebrew valley of Hinnom where fallen Israel sacrificed their children in the fire like a bunch of ignorant pagans, an idea God said didn't even come into His mind. Uh,... that verse IS specifically talking about the "lake of fire" event at the end of Rev.20. That's HOW Christ is representing the valley of Hinnom. In Jer.19 God says one day that valley won't be called Hinnom anymore, but instead "the valley of slaughter"! Why? Because THAT valley of Hinnom fire represents the future "lake of fire" event of Rev.20! How is you have not read that? God also uses the name Tophet for the idea of that "lake of fire" event where the devil will perish (per isaiah 30:33).

Oh, and the devil, Satan, that old serpent, he doesn't have a flesh body. But he has a soul and a spirit, and that's what specifically goes into the "lake of fire". And that's the type burning Christ Jesus is warning of in the Matt.10:28 verse, which again reads...

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul (Greek psuche) and body in hell (geena from Hebrew for Valley of Hinnom).
(KJV)

Greek psuche = breath, spirit, soul. That's IMMATERIAL matter by the way. Definitely NOT of flesh.

Actually, Gei-Ben-Hinnowm was already named the “valley of slaughter” (“Gei-HaHareegah”) for it was there that they sacrificed their children to the god Ba’al, which the true God YHVH would NEVER have ordered! The sins happened before the captivity back when Ahav (Ahab) was king of the northern kingdom of Isra’el. It is already called “ha-tofet,” or “the smiting,” for the same reason! It was named that by King Yoshiyahu (Josiah) after they discovered the Torah scroll while repairing the Temple. (2 Kings 23:10) Not everyone at the time felt that way, however, and they chose their sinful ways again after he was no longer king. (2 Kings 23:31-32, 36-37; 24:8-9)
I know that Yirmeyahu’s prophecy came after him, but much of what Yirmeyahu prophesied came to pass IN the captivity! However, it was during His time that the captivity happened and it was then that the captives took their sins to heart … too late, of course. When the captives returned after Cyrus’ Edict of Restoration and saw the valley again, they would forever call that valley those terms in an effort to teach their children. (Neh. 11:30; Zech. 11:4, 7)

Sometimes, prophecies are ALREADY FULFILLED and need not be fulfilled further or again! It would have made better sense to those in THAT time period as a reminder to themselves and their children that such atrocities should never be done again to avoid what they had gone through!
Believe you me, they have NOT forgotten their lesson, and they no longer sacrifice to false gods.

Nevertheless, that valley has traditionally been the place where the king of Isra’el would set up his judgment throne and pronounce sentences. It was more convenient there if someone was to be stoned. That’s where the trash would be dumped and burned, and they could burn their dead bodies there, too.

You’re wrong that this is even about the Lake of Fire and Sulfur! It’s about the King of Isra’el, as were all the subjects when Yeshua` was here the first time! HE will judge throughout the millennium because His Father has committed all judgment to Him. (John 5:22-23; 1 Cor. 15:24-28)
And, how do YOU know that haSatan doesn't have a body? He was called the "original snake!" Don't snakes have bodies?

veteran said:
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There are two points that need to be addressed: First, the difference between "thee" and "you" is the difference between "you singular" and "you plural." This is one of the reasons for adhering to the KJV. Modern versions that have dropped the thee's and thou's no longer make a distinction between the second person singular from the second person plural! That's unfortunate because passages like this can be misunderstood by such negligence.

That's completely irrelevant to the subject of Matt.10:28. You're beating around the bush, which I'm not going to address your later unrelated tirades either.

It’s not irrelevant to the subject; it is pertinent to the subject! The singular, second-person viewpoint of the sentence, “(thou) fear him which is able to destroy both soul (Greek psuche) and body in hell,” forces one to think that each one individually is to fear Him who can destroy “both soul and body” as though each one of us HAS both soul and body.

However, the proper, PLURAL, second-person viewpoint of the sentence, “(YOU; Y’ALL) fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell,” forces one to think that COLLECTIVELY they all should fear Him who can destroy “both soul and body” with the correct understanding that ALL who appear before the King’s judgment seat are either “soul” or “body!” Can you see the difference?

veteran said:
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Nonsense. The Messiah did not contradict the Tanakh (the OT)! Are you meshuggah (crazy)?! Did not the same Ruach haQodesh Elohiym (the same Holy Spirit of God) inspire the writing of both, the Tanakh and the B'rit Chadashah (the New Covenant or "NT")? Since when does the Ruach haQodesh contradict Himself?!

You haven't found me saying either of those Eccl.12:5-7 and Matt.10:28 Scriptures contradict each other. Instead, I declared how they support each other, but with Matt.10:28 giving MORE DETAIL of what happens after death of the flesh body. Do you like to create seeming contradictions in discussions with other people?

No, and I haven’t done any such thing. You were suggesting it in YOUR statement, “When God BREATHED the 'breath of life' into dust from the ground, THAT dust was NOT the BREATH (equivalent to Greek psuche for soul). Just like Eccl.12:5-7 teaches, that at death the flesh body of dust goes BACK to the dust of the earth where... it came from, and the spirit goes back... to God Who gave it.

Thus, thinking that the soul is a by-product of the spirit joined with flesh contradicts what Christ taught about the soul in Matthew 10:28. It CANNOT be destroyed by flesh death. By that verse a little child can recognize that means that soul part has continued... existence after flesh death! It goes back to God Who GAVE it.”

Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 support Genesis 2:7, but YOU are suggesting that Matthew 10:28 differs from what is taught in Genesis 2:7! It’s not hard; it’s simple:

1. God formed a body (Hebrew: geviyah = corpse; dead body) out of the dust of the earth.
2. God breathed (Hebrew: vaayipach = and-he-puffed) into the body the breath of life (Hebrew: nishmat chayiym = a-puff of-life). He did this by His Ruach ha-Qodesh, His Holy Wind or Spirit, and…
3. Man became a living soul (Hebrew: l-nefesh chayah = to-breathing-creature alive).

Body + Breath = Breather!
Body + “Spirit” = “Soul!”

And, Matthew 10:28 is talking about something TOTALLY unrelated!

veteran said:
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The answer to your question is to be found in the definitions of the words you and I use. Since our definitions don't match, the same sentence you read is different from the sentence I read. It's really quite simple: Mankind is not triune. The "soul" (the "breather") is simply the combination of the "body" and the "spirit" (the "breath"):

Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV

He wasn't "given" a soul; he BECAME a living soul!

Still can't get around what Jesus said in Matt.10:28 can you, to not fear those who kill the flesh, but cannot kill the psuche (soul - breath). When God BREATHED the "breath of life" into dust from the ground, THAT dust was NOT the BREATH (equivalent to Greek psuche for soul). Just like Eccl.12:5-7 teaches, that at death the flesh body of dust goes BACK to the dust of the earth where... it came from, and the spirit goes back... to God Who gave it.

Thus, thinking that the soul is a by-product of the spirit joined with flesh contradicts what Christ taught about the soul in Matthew 10:28. It CANNOT be destroyed by flesh death. By that verse a little child can recognize that means that soul part has continued... existence after flesh death! It goes back to God Who GAVE it.

Heb 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
(KJV)

That's another one of Paul's comparisons of the difference between flesh and spirit, pointing to two different dimensions of existence.

First, Hebrews MAY have been written by Paul, but it may also have been written by SOMEONE ELSE! Be careful in that matter. We don’t truly know.

Second, Hebrews 12:9 takes on a different flavor when one reads it with a better understanding of the Greek words:

Eita tous men tees sarkos heemoon pateras eichomen paideutas kai enetrepometha; ou polu de mallon hupotageesometha too Patri toon pneumatoon kai zeesomen?

The affirmation follows the flesh of-us/our fathers we-have-had corrected-(us) and we-have-respected-them; but not much rather shall-we-obey the Father of-the breaths and live?

It’s one thing to receive correction from our fleshly fathers; it’s another thing entirely to obey the Father of the breaths who could take away ours, if He so thought it necessary!

veteran said:
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...And yet, the Hebrew word for "heaven" ("shaamaayim") in Genesis 1:1, a dual word btw, not plural which is 3 or more, is the SAME WORD that is used to name the "firmament" ("raaqiya`") in Genesis 1:8, the physical substance that separated the waters above the "firmament" from the waters below the "firmament!"

Pretty obvious not all Bible usage of a word is for the same exact thing, like the idea of the valley of Hinnom for "hell" by Christ Jesus in Matthew 10:28. Thus seeking to always apply the atmospheric sky around the earth as the only meaning for heaven is beyond ignorance.

Yeshua the Messiah didn’t USE Gei-Hinnom for “hell!” He used it for what it was used for, the place of His future JUDGMENT SEAT!

REFUSING to take the word “ouranos” for only the atmospheric sky around the earth is beyond ignorance! Just look at how the word is HIDDEN in meaning in Matthew 16:1 when it is clear that Yeshua` knew what it meant in Matthew 16:2-3!

veteran said:
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Furthermore, a house "not made with hands" is simply a reference to the creative power of God in the Resurrection, who is a Spirit without human hands! It does NOT imply that the house is not material any more than Adam's physical body was implied to be immaterial when God fashioned it out of the dust of the earth!

You're wrong again. Paul is using the idea of house in a metaphorical sense. A whole lot of The Bible is written using real everyday objects in a metaphorical or symbolic sense. Hard to express how much the Bible student would miss by not being able to grasp that fact. Therefore, I think you know better than to treat Paul's usage of a 'house' for an immaterial spiritual body as if he were speaking of some material object. It shows you’re even in denial of the "spiritual body" and "image of the heavenly" concepts which Apostle Paul also taught in 1 Cor.15.

I’m not in any “denial” about a “spiritual” body! I am fully aware of the phrase “sooma pneumatikos” and understand that this is a physical body able to PUFF the BREATH OF LIFE! It can GIVE LIFE, just as the Last Adam was made a “quickening spirit,” a “life-giving blast” (Greek: “pneuma zoo-opoioun”)! (And, avoid falling back to that lame excuse of “metaphorical or symbolic sense” that led to an allegorical interpretation of the Bible back in the 200s and 300s A.D! STICK TO THE LITERAL SENSE as often as possible!)

It is YOU who are in denial! Why can’t you accept…

Rom. 8:11
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
KJV

Rom. 8:21-23
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
KJV

veteran said:
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However, you're right about one thing: my "context in translating that into 'age in the skies' literally removes the idea of God's Heavenly abode altogether." I do NOT believe in "God's Heavenly abode," except for the House He is actually designing and building for us human beings, the New Jerusalem, Yerushalayim haChadashah. If you were to ask the average Christian what "Heaven" looks like, how does he or she respond? He or she would probably respond with a quotation from Revelation 21 and 22! Y'know, streets of transparent gold, pearly gates, etc. Is he or she wrong? NO! Not when you consider that there is "heaven" or "atmosphere" within the walls of the New Jerusalem!

That explains why you're missing out on a whole lot of things about the Heavenly written in God's Word, specifically the change at the twinkling of eye that Apostle Paul taught about in relation to certain events in Isaiah 25. You've also obviously missed out on what Peter taught about Christ at His resurrection going to preach The Gospel to the "spirits in prison". That's not to mention what your Jewish traditions do to Paul's teaching about the saints that have already passed on from this world. They are not in some hole in the ground out in the backyard.

First, just what are you reading in Yesha`yahu’s prophecy (chapter 25)? BE CAREFUL how you interpret Isaiah 25! Can you not see that it is talking about the Millennium?

At best, the passage about “preaching to the spirits in prison” (1 Peter 3:19) is an obscure passage (to y’all) because y’all don’t study the SOURCE of such teachings! You have assumed and added to the Scriptures when you assumed He “preached the Gospel.” The “Gospel” is not even in the passage! That’s NOT what He heralded! Do you understand that this is a quotation from OT Scripture?

veteran said:
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Why do you act like you've "killed the big one?" That's not very professional nor is it very Christian-like. It's not like I haven't thought all this through. You're writing back and forth with someone who has looked up EVERY verse in both the Tanakh and the B'rit Chadashah that has anything at all to do with "heaven, heavens, heavenly, heavenlies, air, sky, skies, and celestial!" I was using Strong's Concordance, a KJV Bible, and the Greek and Hebrew dictionaries within Strong's Concordance, an English dictionary, and Roget's Thesaurus to essentially look up every occurrence of a Greek word or a Hebrew word, like the Englishman's Concordance does, before I even knew there WAS an Englishman's Concordance! I'm not stupid, and I am tenacious about a subject until I've exhausted all leads!

Oh, excuse my little ole' ignorance, afterall I'm a Christian and a Gentile, and a Sotherner by the Grace of God, and what would someone like me know about such things? "Is'a don't know any thang bout delivrn no babies!" Christians know a lot more than Jewish tradition gives them credit. Those who are prideful in their traditions and philosophy actually can't match the wisdom given to the simple Christian through Christ Jesus by The Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 3:19-20
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
(KJV)

Your leads have missed the mark, because after all that study, you've still failed to rely on one simple thing; simple common sense reasoning by The Holy Spirit. That's how the seemingly difficult is made simple.

Let's do a recount:

You don't believe a Heavenly Abode where God dwells exists. That idea suggests that God does not exist, since to you the word heaven always means the atmospheric sky around the earth. Now that idea really is... crazy! Is that the deductive reasoning one is to use because of your disbelief about God's Heavenly Abode being a real place, just not in the dimension we are in?

Hogwash! I am not denying the existence of God by denying the existence of the theological concept of a “Heavenly Abode!” What are you trying to do? Make me look bad to others who might be reading along? Are you trying to justify your own definitions and interpretations by bad-mouthing my stance and make yourself feel better by comparison? I am CONFIRMING the correct meaning of the word “ouranos” (and “shaamayim”)! WHERE is this “Heavenly Abode?” According to Yeshua` Himself, we should know:

John 14:1-4
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
KJV

veteran said:
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I don't have to "get around" what Paul was saying in 1 Cor. 15:35-54 or 2 Cor. 5:1-10. Neither the words "epouranios" ("heavenly") nor "pneumatikos" (spiritual) imply immaterial. To the contrary, they suggest material STRENGTH! Just as the seed and the stalk of wheat are both physical in 15:37-38, so too the "psuchikos" body and the "pneumatikos" body are both physical! The difference is not "material" and "immaterial"; rather, the difference is "weak" and "strong" and BOTH are physical! Look, be more careful: It's not an "ouranios" body, a body made out of "the sky atmosphere around the earth"; it's an "EPouranios" body! A body fashioned like unto HIS glorious body which currently is in outer space, "epouranios!"

You and I definitely do not study with the same groups of Bible scholars. Those Bible references you quoted earlier obviously haven't done you much good. And getting around... is exactly the thing you're trying to do by your misuse of those works. An example?...

So Christ Jesus did NOT ascend to God's Heavenly Abode to sit on His right hand as written? He only ascended into the SKY of "outer space" and that's it!?! Is He up there flying around with the rockets and satellites and stuff then? You do... realize such a belief as that links your thinking to ideas like God could be an alien and there's life on other planets, don't you?

Our Heavenly Father and His Son are not aliens, nor part of the UFO phenomenon. There is no such thing as aliens. If anything, those evidence of the fallen angels popping in between the two dimensions of the earthly and the heavenly. What your belief also suggests that God's Own Image is not really Spirit as written, but made up of material matter, since for ANYTHING to exist in "outer space" it also must have physical MASS and WEIGHT according to God's laws of natural physics. You do realize the sky atmosphere around the earth is made up of material matter that has mass and weight, don't you?

Sorry, that's all the ludicrous nonsense I can take with your crazy thinking. Good luck to you, you're gonna' need it.

All we know about the origin of this earth we get from the Scriptures. We can only KNOW what God shares with us and that only second-hand. Scientists don’t KNOW anything about the origin of earth or the universe from observation; they can only surmise and guess BASED on their observations and records!

Furthermore, God has only told us about OUR biosphere! He has not told us what might be going on upon or around those distant points of light we call stars (Hebrew: kokhaviym = “round-objects”).

How do we know that there isn’t life on other planets? We don’t know; that’s GOD’S business! And, HE’S NOT TELLING! It’s certainly within His power to create life on more than just one planet!

Where is Yeshua`? I believe that He is in the New Jerusalem – also called “paradeisos” or “Paradise” – at the present “preparing a place for us.” Where is the New Jerusalem? I believe that it is in outer space, far enough away from us that we simply mistake it for another star, if we can see it at all!

veteran · Jan 17, 2012

Really not worth replying to, since you're so attached to your flesh and a carnal thinking.

Retrobyter · Jan 21, 2012

Shabbat shalom, veteran.

Ever hear the phrase, "he's so 'heavenly' minded that he's of no earthly good"? SHAME ON YOU for falling back on an ad hominem attack! You have taken the words "flesh" and "carnal thinking" to abnormal extremes! You need to stick to the contexts of those words!

Paul used the word "carnal" for "pettiness" in 1 Cor. 3:3:

1 Corinthians 3:1-5
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
KJV

But again, even here the analogy contrasts between "carnal" and "spiritual" as the difference between "weak as babies in the Messiah needing to be fed with milk" and "strong men able to eat meat." And, consider carefully the context of the following occurrences of the word "flesh":

Romans 8:1-11
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
KJV

The word "quicken" means to "bring back to life!" Why do you think that there are such traditions as graveyards and burial plots or crypts? It's because of the HOPE OF A RESURRECTION! Do you really think that Paul was saying in verse 8 above that those who were still in a physical body cannot please God?!

Consider all these passages:

Acts 2:25-36
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
KJV

Acts 23:6-8
6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided.
8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
KJV

Acts 24:14-15
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
KJV

Acts 26:6-8
6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers:
7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.
8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?
KJV

Acts 28:19-20
19 But when the Jews spake against it, I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar; not that I had ought to accuse my nation of.
20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
KJV

Rom 8:11-25
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
KJV

1 Cor 15:12-23
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
KJV

1 Thess 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

Titus 1:1-4
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
KJV

Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
KJV

Titus 3:4-7
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
KJV

1 Peter 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
KJV

1 Peter 1:18-21
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
KJV

1 John 3:1-3
3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
KJV

All of these are resurrection passages! And, all of them suggest a physical resurrection of our mortal bodies (transformed, of course, into immortal bodies like Yeshua`s immortal body that could eat, drink, talk, and walk)!

We don't just go to "heaven" and that's it. We are resurrected! We WAKE UP! We'll live on this earth during the millennium! We'll live on the New Earth after the final judgment! This should be a JOYOUS thing for you, not something to resist!

Phillip · Jan 21, 2012

Here is when and where Jesus said He'd Come;

(Luk 24:49)

And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

(Act 1:7) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
(Act 1:8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Jesus Came as promised, as the resurrected and glorified Holy Spirit, on Pentecost, and unto each man in His own order since then. That is "HOW He "Comes".

The only question left is, "have you received Him?"

Is He in your flesh? Christ is in MY flesh

(1Jn 4:2) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
(1Jn 4:3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Retrobyter · Jan 21, 2012

Shabbat shalom, Phillip.

Phillip said:
Here is when and where Jesus said He'd Come;

(Luk 24:49)

And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

(Act 1:7) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
(Act 1:8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Jesus Came as promised, as the resurrected and glorified Holy Spirit, on Pentecost, and unto each man in His own order since then. That is "HOW He "Comes".

The only question left is, "have you received Him?"

Is He in your flesh? Christ is in MY flesh

(1Jn 4:2) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
(1Jn 4:3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Ummm... no. Yeshua haMashiach Elohiym (Jesus the Messiah of God) is NOT the same Person as the Ruach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God). This is important to understand because it goes back to why there is a doctrine of the Trinity at all! What were Yeshua`s precise words?

John 14:12-19
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
KJV

Even within this passage of Scripture, Yeshua` gave the promise of HIS RETURN! ("I will come to you.") and of the future RESURRECTION! ("ye shall live also.") And, HE called the Ruach haQodesh "ANOTHER Comforter." They are NOT identical! Have you ever realized that Yeshua` never called Himself "God?" He always called Himself the "Son of man," and on occasion, admitted to being the "SON OF God," although He usually silenced the daemons who knew that fact. Once, He even qualified the statement with the following:

John 10:33-36
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
KJV

Be careful how you use Scripture to support your theology instead of letting your theology be DEFINED BY the Scriptures.

Phillip · Jan 21, 2012

Retrobyter said:
Shabbat shalom, Phillip.

Ummm... no. Yeshua haMashiach Elohiym (Jesus the Messiah of God) is NOT the same Person as the Ruach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God). This is important to understand because it goes back to why there is a doctrine of the Trinity at all! What were Yeshua`s precise words?

John 14:12-19
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
KJV

Even within this passage of Scripture, Yeshua` gave the promise of HIS RETURN! ("I will come to you.") and of the future RESURRECTION! ("ye shall live also.") And, HE called the Ruach haQodesh "ANOTHER Comforter." They are NOT identical! Have you ever realized that Yeshua` never called Himself "God?" He always called Himself the "Son of man," and on occasion, admitted to being the "SON OF God," although He usually silenced the daemons who knew that fact. Once, He even qualified the statement with the following:

John 10:33-36
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
KJV

Be careful how you use Scripture to support your theology instead of letting your theology be DEFINED BY the Scriptures.

You are severely mistaken in wresting scriptures to your own destruction.

The only Holy Spirit I know is Christ Jesus resurrected.

The Holy Spirit is Jesus Glorified in the ascension to "Father". That is How Jesus Comes into us with the "promise of the Father". He is the Husband to His Glorious New Jerusalem Church wife who has birthed us forth in New Life of Christ by His Holy Spirit. Whoever declares other than this is a wolf and a liar.

Jesus Glorified is the "Holy Spirit". When we Receive Him, He "Comes" into us forever. He is COME. None of this futuristic stuff about a purported "second coming" has any truth to it. It is simply a smoke screen of the devil blinding ones eyes to the Word of God.

(Joh 7:38) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(Joh 7:39) But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believed on him were to receive: for the Spirit was not yet given; because Jesus was not yet glorified.

aspen · Jan 21, 2012

Phillip said:
You are severely mistaken in wresting scriptures to your own destruction.

The only Holy Spirit I know is Christ Jesus resurrected.

The Holy Spirit is Jesus Glorified in the ascension to "Father". That is How Jesus Comes into us with the "promise of the Father". He is the Husband to His Glorious New Jerusalem Church wife who has birthed us forth in New Life of Christ by His Holy Spirit. Whoever declares other than this is a wolf and a liar.

Jesus Glorified is the "Holy Spirit". When we Receive Him, He "Comes" into us forever. He is COME. None of this futuristic stuff about a purported "second coming" has any truth to it. It is simply a smoke screen of the devil blinding ones eyes to the Word of God.

(Joh 7:38) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(Joh 7:39) But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believed on him were to receive: for the Spirit was not yet given; because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Well, then you stand outside orthodoxy.

When Did Jesus Say He Would Return?

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“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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