When Did Jesus Say He Would Return?

Lively Stone said:

Where in the bible does it say that the Church will go through the Great Tribulation?


The word of God clearly states that believers will escape the tribulation bloodbath.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NLT)
[sup]9[/sup] For God chose to save us through our Lord Jesus Christ, not to pour out his anger on us.

Revelation 3:10 (NLT)
[sup]10[/sup] “Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world.

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The Thessalonians passage, in context, speaks of the wrath that will be poured out on the unsaved on the Day of the Lord. This verse doesn't say anything about Christians being removed from the earth.

1 Thessalonians 5
Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

[font="'Charis SIL"]Revelation 3:10 was written to the church of Philadelphia, not all end-time believers. Even if one were to interpret the churches as being different eras of church history, the tribulation would be occurring in the age of the Laodicean church, meaning the Philadelphian church would escape tribulation by not living long enough to see it. God has many ways of protecting His people. Protection via rapture here is a huge assumption. [/font]

I keep asking, but can never get an answer to the simple outline in Rev. 20:4-5.


[sup]4[/sup] ... I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. [sup]5[/sup] But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


If there is tribulation era rapture, then there MUST be a preceding resurrection. So the apparent sequence is:


1. Resurrection of the dead, -- approximate to the tribulation, -- a first resurrection.

2. Rapture of the church, -- approximate to the tribulation, -- a first rapture.

3. Resurrection of the martyred saints, -- at the beginning of the Millennium Kingdom, -- a second resurrection.

4. Resurrection of the rest of the dead, -- after the Millennium Kingdom, -- a third resurrection.

5. A rapture of those who are alive and remain on earth to the New Jerusalem, -- after the Millennium Kingdom, -- a second rapture.


And of course my question is, how is #1 a "first resurrection" and #3 a "second resurrection", when Scripture declares that #3 is the FIRST RESURRECTION?


I'm not very good at math. Can anybody help explain whether "FIRST" is really FIRST or SECOND?

Shalom, TWC.

TWC said:

The Thessalonians passage, in context, speaks of the wrath that will be poured out on the unsaved on the Day of the Lord. This verse doesn't say anything about Christians being removed from the earth.

1 Thessalonians 5
Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

Revelation 3:10 was written to the church of Philadelphia, not all end-time believers. Even if one were to interpret the churches as being different eras of church history, the tribulation would be occurring in the age of the Laodicean church, meaning the Philadelphian church would escape tribulation by not living long enough to see it. God has many ways of protecting His people. Protection via rapture here is a huge assumption.

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You're right! The only thing that I would like to see a little different in your post is within your quotation of 1 Thes. 5: If only the quotation had used the word "rescue" instead of "salvation," it would have made the passage clearer to understand. "God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive RESCUE through our Lord Jesus Christ!" That's a LITERAL, NATIONAL rescue at Yeshua`s hands when He returns to fight for Isra'el!

Shalom, PropphecyStudent.

PropphecyStudent said:

I keep asking, but can never get an answer to the simple outline in Rev. 20:4-5.


[sup]4[/sup] ... I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. [sup]5[/sup] But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


If there is tribulation era rapture, then there MUST be a preceding resurrection. So the apparent sequence is:


1. Resurrection of the dead, -- approximate to the tribulation, -- a first resurrection.

2. Rapture of the church, -- approximate to the tribulation, -- a first rapture.

3. Resurrection of the martyred saints, -- at the beginning of the Millennium Kingdom, -- a second resurrection.

4. Resurrection of the rest of the dead, -- after the Millennium Kingdom, -- a third resurrection.

5. A rapture of those who are alive and remain on earth to the New Jerusalem, -- after the Millennium Kingdom, -- a second rapture.


And of course my question is, how is #1 a "first resurrection" and #3 a "second resurrection", when Scripture declares that #3 is the FIRST RESURRECTION?


I'm not very good at math. Can anybody help explain whether "FIRST" is really FIRST or SECOND?

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It's not. There's only one.

...
If there is tribulation era rapture, then there MUST be a preceding resurrection. So the apparent sequence is:


1. Resurrection of the dead, -- approximate to the tribulation, -- a first resurrection.

2. Rapture of the church, -- approximate to the tribulation, -- a first rapture.

3. Resurrection of the martyred saints, -- at the beginning of the Millennium Kingdom, -- a second resurrection.

4. Resurrection of the rest of the dead, -- after the Millennium Kingdom, -- a third resurrection.

5. A rapture of those who are alive and remain on earth to the New Jerusalem, -- after the Millennium Kingdom, -- a second rapture.


And of course my question is, how is #1 a "first resurrection" and #3 a "second resurrection", when Scripture declares that #3 is the FIRST RESURRECTION?


I'm not very good at math. Can anybody help explain whether "FIRST" is really FIRST or SECOND?

Click to expand...

Retrobyter said:

Shalom, PropphecyStudent.


It's not. There's only one.

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Ummmmmmmm, -- Rev. 20:4-5 says there's a FIRST resurrection at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom for the Martyred; and a SECOND resurrection at the end of the Millennium Kingdom for the rest of the dead:


[sup]4[/sup] And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. [sup]5[/sup] But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


Per the verses above, the purple is the FIRST resurrection, and the green is the SECOND resurrection. So are you saying that Scripture is wrong, and there is only ONE resurrection?




Math was never my strong suit, and I wonder if "First" is synonymous with "Second"; "Second" is synonymous with "First"; and all "Three" are only ONE. -- My head hurts.

PropphecyStudent said:

Ummmmmmmm, -- Rev. 20:4-5 says there's a FIRST resurrection at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom for the Martyred; and a SECOND resurrection at the end of the Millennium Kingdom for the rest of the dead:

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You infer it's speaking ONLY of the marytred saints, which is only part... of the meaning.


Rev 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(KJV)

The part in bold includes all the saints during the tribulation that refuse to worship the beast, nor his image, and do not receive his mark. Doesn't say that group is marytred like the first phrase does.

[sup]4[/sup] And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. [sup]5[/sup] But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


Per the verses above, the purple is the FIRST resurrection, and the green is the SECOND resurrection. So are you saying that Scripture is wrong, and there is only ONE resurrection?

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There's only one resurrection at Christ's second coming, but it will manifest with 2 different types (per John 5:28-29). The Rev.20:5 "dead" are resurrected at Christ's coming also, and are of the "resurrection of damnation". That Rev.20:5 also includes a phrase pointing to a future... time with, "lived not again until...". The inferred 'living' resurrection is about a second one LIKE the first, after... the thousand years.

veteran said:

You infer it's speaking ONLY of the marytred saints, which is only part... of the meaning.

Rev 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(KJV)

The part in bold includes all the saints during the tribulation that refuse to worship the beast, nor his image, and do not receive his mark. Doesn't say that group is marytred like the first phrase does.

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The text depicts ONE group:


[sup]4[/sup] ... I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. [sup]5[/sup] But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


Did you presume it said. "and yet others", which would define multiple groups?

veteran said:

There's only one resurrection at Christ's second coming, ... The inferred 'living' resurrection is about a second one LIKE the first, after... the thousand years.

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According to your description, it appears you do not allow for a tribulation era resurrection and associated ~rapture~. It also appears you've complicated the (second) resurrection after the thousand years of "lived not again until" by depicting this as a living resurrection, when in fact they're DEAD. However, there will be those who are alive and remain on earth after Jesus judges those nations which shall march across the face of the earth, and at the end of this age the DEAD shall be raised and the LIVING individuals will ascend to the New Jerusalem.

Is this representative of what you were trying to depict?

PropphecyStudent said:

The text depicts ONE group:

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Wrong. It depicts TWO groups of saints...

Rev 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(KJV)

The first group (red) accounts for the persecuted saints in the PAST also, and not just the persecuted saints at the end of this world. The second group (blue) ONLY applies to saints in the end of this world prior to Christ's return because of the latter day beast image prophecy.


Rev 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
(KJV)

Some of Christ's Apostles, like Paul and Peter are included in those slain for The Word of God and Testimony of Jesus Christ, OT prophets like Isaiah too. Paul even uses the Greek word prizo (sawn in two) per Hebrews 11:37 for the slaying of OT prophets.

Shabbat shalom, veteran.

veteran said:

Wrong. It depicts TWO groups of saints...

Rev 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(KJV)

The first group (red) accounts for the persecuted saints in the PAST also, and not just the persecuted saints at the end of this world. The second group (blue) ONLY applies to saints in the end of this world prior to Christ's return because of the latter day beast image prophecy.


Rev 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
(KJV)

Some of Christ's Apostles, like Paul and Peter are included in those slain for The Word of God and Testimony of Jesus Christ, OT prophets like Isaiah too. Paul even uses the Greek word prizo (sawn in two) per Hebrews 11:37 for the slaying of OT prophets.

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One might also want to look carefully at verse 6, as well:

Rev 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV

This verse includes ANYONE on whom "the second death hath no power." Don't think that the phrase "on such the second death hath no power" is dependent upon the phrase "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection." The dependency is REVERSED! Those "on such the second death hath no power" are those who are "blessed and holy" and who have "part in the first resurrection!" The sentence is NOT limited by the first phrase; it is EXPANDED and set at LIBERTY by the second!

PropphecyStudent said:

According to your description, it appears you do not allow for a tribulation era resurrection and associated ~rapture~. It also appears you've complicated the (second) resurrection after the thousand years of "lived not again until" by depicting this as a living resurrection, when in fact they're DEAD. However, there will be those who are alive and remain on earth after Jesus judges those nations which shall march across the face of the earth, and at the end of this age the DEAD shall be raised and the LIVING individuals will ascend to the New Jerusalem.

Is this representative of what you were trying to depict?

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There is no room in God's Word for a time of resurrection during the tribulation, nor room for a 'rapture' idea which isn't written either. But a gathering of the saints to Christ Jesus at His return after the tribulation, there is plenty room in God's Word, for that's actually what is written (Matt.24:29-31).

Two types of resurrection occur at Christ's second coming, and it covers ALL... peoples, the just and the unjust (John 5:28-29). It covers His Church that is still alive on earth after the tribulation, and also the unjust that are still alive on earth at His coming. During Christ's Millennium reign, all peoples will be in resurrected type bodies, but not all will be resurrected unto eternal life.

Thus the idea of the "dead" of Rev.20:5 is not about flesh dead people, but spiritually dead people, their spirit not having been born of The Spirit (which Christ said was a requirement to enter into God's Kingdom per John 3, remember?). Those are the ones of the "resurrection of damnation" that Jesus mentioned in the John 5:28-29 Scripture.

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(KJV)

veteran said:

Wrong. It depicts TWO groups of saints...

Rev 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(KJV)

The first group (red) accounts for the persecuted saints in the PAST also, and not just the persecuted saints at the end of this world. The second group (blue) ONLY applies to saints in the end of this world prior to Christ's return because of the latter day beast image prophecy.

...

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Ummmmmm, if these are two groups as you suggest, and the first group are the ancient DEAD ("beheaded), then they certainly need a resurrection to be brought back to life, -- in the FIRST resurrection. However, because both groups participate in the FIRST resurrection which demands they they ALL be DEAD. And certainly not EVERYONE who refuses to worship the beast will perish, thus you apparently presume that Jesus will have to kill them so that they will no longer have perishable bodies, but new bodies which will last 1,000 years.

?!?!?!?!?

... a gathering of the saints to Christ Jesus at His return after the tribulation, ... (Matt.24:29-31).

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In order for any dead saints to be "gathered", there has to be a resurrection and Rev. 20:4-5 specifically limits those to the martyred. So either these who are gathered possibly consist of the 144,000 which are Jews and proclaim Jesus as the Messiah to the world, or these are possibly those who come to worship in Jerusalem. But they cannot be a church which is neither resurrected, or raptured, or returned.

... the "dead" of Rev.20:5 is not about flesh dead people, but spiritually dead people ...

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If you propose Rev. 20:4-5 is "spiritually dead people", then why doesn't John define them as such. Specifically, the martyred are ~spiritually alive~, and are dead, and the "rest of the dead" are not distinguished except that they are NOT martyred.

But you present a further delineation which Scripture does not substantiate.

John 3:5

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You present John 3:5 as though it pertained to the Millennial Kingdom, which is NOT entering "the kingdom of God". The Millennial Kingdom still has sinners, still has death, and still will be tempted when satan is loosed.




.

PropphecyStudent said:

Ummmmmm, if these are two groups as you suggest, and the first group are the ancient DEAD ("beheaded), then they certainly need a resurrection to be brought back to life, -- in the FIRST resurrection. However, because both groups participate in the FIRST resurrection which demands they they ALL be DEAD. And certainly not EVERYONE who refuses to worship the beast will perish, thus you apparently presume that Jesus will have to kill them so that they will no longer have perishable bodies, but new bodies which will last 1,000 years.

?!?!?!?!?

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Nothing written there that demands all of both groups must be dead at the same time. As per the 5th Seal, some saints will be executed in the last days for their Testimony of Jesus Christ, which is why God tells the souls under the altar to wait a little season until their brethren on earth are likewise killed as they were. Per 1 Cor.15, not everyone in Christ will be killed during the coming tribulation, but will still remain until the last day of this world when Christ Jesus returns. Then, at Christ's coming, both the saints in Heaven that He brings with Him, and the saints still alive on earth, are joined together to Him at Jerusalem.