The only one that you gave is Acts15:1-30 in your post #13. This scripture says the Jews wanted to make the Gentiles be circumsized. That does not show anything to me. Perhapes you can elaborate for me.
Where are the scriptures?
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The only one that you gave is Acts15:1-30 in your post #13. This scripture says the Jews wanted to make the Gentiles be circumsized. That does not show anything to me. Perhapes you can elaborate for me.
Alrighty then, once more with feeling!
My point is this: Jesus. Jesus said "I am the way". Paul said "Only through Christ." That is the same message.
I think you know that God always knew that His good news would be taken to the world. Jesus knew this, there are hints to this all throughout his ministry. Every time He says "I have come to save the WORLD" or 'I am the light of the WORLD", or "That WHOMEVER believes" or "So that ALL may have life"....you get the point. Or in Luke 20:9-18, the parable of the Wicked tenants, Jesus says :"He will come and destroy the tenants and give the vineyard to others." This parable is a clear summation of what was happening and would happen. Jesus KNEW that His gospel would expand.
But I think you know this, I just don't understand what you are exactly arguing when you say that Jesus' and Paul's messages were different. In peripherals I may agree with that, as I said before....by necessity they needed to be a little different since they were directed at different audiences. But the clear central message, from both of them, was Jesus. That HE was the only way to God. That HE was the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of God.
Scriptures:
[25] Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, [26] and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” [27] She said to him, “Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world.” (John 11:25-27 ESV)
[6] Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
(John 14:6 ESV)
[For God So Loved the World]
[16] “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
(John 3:16 ESV)
[22] But Saul increased all the more in strength, and confounded the Jews who lived in Damascus by proving that Jesus was the Christ.
(Acts 9:22 ESV)
[2] For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. (1 Corinthians 2:2 ESV)
[Peace with God Through Faith]
[5:1] Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. (Romans 5:1 ESV)
[8] Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, (2 Timothy 2:8 ESV)
[The Resurrection of Christ]
[15:1] Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, [2] and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
[3] For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, [4] that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 ESV)
You may also want to read Acts 13:16-52. Paul gives this speech to the Jews...he often tried to teach the Jews before he went out to speak to the Gentiles. The message he gave both of them was the same (perhaps minus the things about Jewish history/laws).
The message is this: Jesus was God's Son, who died for our sins, who was raised from death. Whoever believes in Him will not perish but live. Same message. Jesus said He was the way, Paul said Jesus was the way.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
What he's been taught as the difference involves this...
Matt 24:21-22
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
(KJV)
Matt 24:24-26
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, "He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
(KJV)
Who was our Lord Jesus speaking to there? To His elect Apostles and disciples who were with Him upon the Mount of Olives. So who are those "elect" He was telling them would go through that "great tribulation", and that it would be shortened for their sakes?
Didn't Apostle Paul teach that Christ's Apostles represent part of the FOUNDATION OF HIS CHURCH? Yes (Ephesians).
Thus the ONLY "elect" our Lord Jesus could be referring to there has to mean His elect servants of HIS CHURCH. Did Apostle Paul refer to Gentile believers on Christ Jesus as 'elect' also? YES!
Yet what the double-Gospel falsehood is trying to create, is a fake separation of Christ's Church, dividing His Church into TWO separate Churches; an Israelite Church and a Gentile Church. That is done SOLELY for the purpose to support the false Pre-tribulational rapture doctrine of man. Dispensationalism from Darby began that idea, but Hyper-Dispensationalism took it farther with the false idea of TWO separate Gospels, one for Israelite believers, and another for Gentile believers.
THAT is why they refuse to accept that our Lord Jesus was speaking about ALL His Church in those Matthew 24 Scriptures with that "very elect". It's because of Dispensationalist Pre-tribbers being falsely taught that the Gentile Church is going to be raptured to Heaven PRIOR to that "great tribulation", while those "elect" Israelites remain on earth to go through that "great tribulation"!
That's certainly not what Apostle Paul taught, nor any other writer in God's Word by The Holy Spirit. How can anyone miss this difference men's doctrines of Dispensationalism and the Pre-trib rapture creates?
I think Richard is waiting for a verses that says exactly what he is (or isn't) talking about...to be honest, I'm a little confused as to his whole point and motivation.
I mean, I could demand someone come up with a verse that says "thou shall not eat your lawnmower...", clearly it won't be found...but one could suppose it would come in under "not everything is beneficial"!!
Richard is asking for something...specifically...that is just not there, in fact the way he's forming his question is, I believe, coming from such an angle that he's never going to get the simple answer and simple verse that he's seeking. He's asking for a verse that either proves or disproves...absolutely, Paul's message being the same as Jesus' message. The bible certainly never covers this...there is no need, because quite obviously the central truth they both taught was the same. Why on earth would Paul need to lay out an exact verse to prove he was teaching Jesus, when everything he talks about is focused on Jesus!!?
I just don't know how clearer it can be: Jesus, Jesus, Jesus!! Jesus said: "it's me! I'm the Son of God, I'm the Messiah, I'm the Christ...absolutely no one will get to the Father unless it's by me." Paul says exactly the same thing! Seriously, if Richard needs more (than the scriptures that I gave above) then he really should sit down and read the New Testament...it's kinda cool and it's all about this one dude: Jesus.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I think Richard is waiting for a verses that says exactly what he is (or isn't) talking about...to be honest, I'm a little confused as to his whole point and motivation.
I mean, I could demand someone come up with a verse that says "thou shall not eat your lawnmower...", clearly it won't be found...but one could suppose it would come in under "not everything is beneficial"!!
Richard is asking for something...specifically...that is just not there, in fact the way he's forming his question is, I believe, coming from such an angle that he's never going to get the simple answer and simple verse that he's seeking. He's asking for a verse that either proves or disproves...absolutely, Paul's message being the same as Jesus' message. The bible certainly never covers this...there is no need, because quite obviously the central truth they both taught was the same. Why on earth would Paul need to lay out an exact verse to prove he was teaching Jesus, when everything he talks about is focused on Jesus!!?
I just don't know how clearer it can be: Jesus, Jesus, Jesus!! Jesus said: "it's me! I'm the Son of God, I'm the Messiah, I'm the Christ...absolutely no one will get to the Father unless it's by me." Paul says exactly the same thing! Seriously, if Richard needs more (than the scriptures that I gave above) then he really should sit down and read the New Testament...it's kinda cool and it's all about this one dude: Jesus.
Now that Jesus stuff is just crazy talk!
I think he should have demanded you to produce a verse that says "thou shalt not be named after a delicious sandwich made from bread surrounding a melted cheese on meat patty"......oh wait! Perhaps I need a snack....
Well, at least it would have been more interesting than maligning Paul......nevermind.
Rerally? That's all you got out of that passage?
Well let me point them out.
You stated "Sorry but you have not given one single scripture that says Jesus and the 12 abolished the Law of Moses. However, there are many written by Paul that says the Law of Moses no longer applies in this age of God's grace."
1 While Paul and Barnabas were at Antioch of Syria, some men from Judea arrived and began to teach the believers : “Unless you are circumcised as required by the law of Moses, you cannot be saved.”2 Paul and Barnabas disagreed with them, arguing vehemently. Finally, the church decided to send Paul and Barnabas to Jerusalem, accompanied by some local believers, to talk to the apostles and elders about this question.3 The church sent the delegates to Jerusalem, and they stopped along the way in Phoenicia and Samaria to visit the believers. They told them—much to everyone’s joy—that the Gentiles, too, were being converted.4 When they arrived in Jerusalem, Barnabas and Paul were welcomed by the whole church, including the apostles and elders. They reported everything God had done through them.5 But then some of the believers who belonged to the sect of the Pharisees stood up and insisted, “The Gentile converts must be circumcised and required to follow the law of Moses.”6 So the apostles and elders met together to resolve this issue.7 At the meeting, after a long discussion, Peter stood and addressed them as follows: “Brothers, you all know that God chose me from among you some time ago to preach to the Gentiles so that they could hear the Good News and believe.8 God knows people’s hearts, and he confirmed that he accepts Gentiles by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us.9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he cleansed their hearts through faith.10 So why are you now challenging God by burdening the Gentile believers with a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors were able to bear?11 We believe that we are all saved the same way, by the undeserved grace of the Lord Jesus.”12 Everyone listened quietly as Barnabas and Paul told about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.13 When they had finished, James stood and said, “Brothers, listen to me.14 Peter has told you about the time God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people for himself.15 And this conversion of Gentiles is exactly what the prophets predicted. As it is written: <br style="LINE-HEIGHT: 0.7em">16 ‘Afterward I will return and restore the fallen house of David. I will rebuild its ruins and restore it,17 so that the rest of humanity might seek the Lord, including the Gentiles— all those I have called to be mine. The Lord has spoken—18 he who made these things known so long ago.’ <br style="LINE-HEIGHT: 0.7em">19 “And so my judgment is that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.20 Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from eating food offered to idols, from sexual immorality, from eating the meat of strangled animals, and from consuming blood.21 For these laws of Moses have been preached in Jewish synagogues in every city on every Sabbath for many generations.”
The Letter for Gentile Believers
22 Then the apostles and elders together with the whole church in Jerusalem chose delegates, and they sent them to Antioch of Syria with Paul and Barnabas to report on this decision. The men chosen were two of the church leaders —Judas (also called Barsabbas) and Silas.23 This is the letter they took with them: <br style="LINE-HEIGHT: 0.7em">“This letter is from the apostles and elders, your brothers in Jerusalem. It is written to the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia. Greetings!24 “We understand that some men from here have troubled you and upset you with their teaching, but we did not send them!25 So we decided, having come to complete agreement, to send you official representatives, along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,26 who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.27 We are sending Judas and Silas to confirm what we have decided concerning your question.28 “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay no greater burden on you than these few requirements:29 You must abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality. If you do this, you will do well. Farewell.” <br style="LINE-HEIGHT: 0.7em">30 The messengers went at once to Antioch, where they called a general meeting of the believers and delivered the letter.
Acts 15:1-30 (NLT)Here the Apostles under the guidance of HolySpirit instructed the new believers that they only need to concern themselves with abstaining from food offered to idols, consuming blood or meat from strangled animals and from sexual immorality. They did not burden them with obedience to the law of Moses.
Maybe you should read it again.
Rerally? That's all you got out of that passage?
Well let me point them out.
You stated "Sorry but you have not given one single scripture that says Jesus and the 12 abolished the Law of Moses. However, there are many written by Paul that says the Law of Moses no longer applies in this age of God's grace."
1 While Paul and Barnabas were at Antioch of Syria, some men from Judea arrived and began to teach the believers : “Unless you are circumcised as required by the law of Moses, you cannot be saved.”2 Paul and Barnabas disagreed with them, arguing vehemently. Finally, the church decided to send Paul and Barnabas to Jerusalem, accompanied by some local believers, to talk to the apostles and elders about this question.3 The church sent the delegates to Jerusalem, and they stopped along the way in Phoenicia and Samaria to visit the believers. They told them—much to everyone’s joy—that the Gentiles, too, were being converted.4 When they arrived in Jerusalem, Barnabas and Paul were welcomed by the whole church, including the apostles and elders. They reported everything God had done through them.5 But then some of the believers who belonged to the sect of the Pharisees stood up and insisted, “The Gentile converts must be circumcised and required to follow the law of Moses.”6 So the apostles and elders met together to resolve this issue.7 At the meeting, after a long discussion, Peter stood and addressed them as follows: “Brothers, you all know that God chose me from among you some time ago to preach to the Gentiles so that they could hear the Good News and believe.8 God knows people’s hearts, and he confirmed that he accepts Gentiles by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us.9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he cleansed their hearts through faith.10 So why are you now challenging God by burdening the Gentile believers with a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors were able to bear?11 We believe that we are all saved the same way, by the undeserved grace of the Lord Jesus.”12 Everyone listened quietly as Barnabas and Paul told about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.13 When they had finished, James stood and said, “Brothers, listen to me.14 Peter has told you about the time God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people for himself.15 And this conversion of Gentiles is exactly what the prophets predicted. As it is written: <br style="LINE-HEIGHT: 0.7em">16 ‘Afterward I will return and restore the fallen house of David. I will rebuild its ruins and restore it,17 so that the rest of humanity might seek the Lord, including the Gentiles— all those I have called to be mine. The Lord has spoken—18 he who made these things known so long ago.’ <br style="LINE-HEIGHT: 0.7em">19 “And so my judgment is that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.20 Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from eating food offered to idols, from sexual immorality, from eating the meat of strangled animals, and from consuming blood.21 For these laws of Moses have been preached in Jewish synagogues in every city on every Sabbath for many generations.”The Letter for Gentile Believers
22 Then the apostles and elders together with the whole church in Jerusalem chose delegates, and they sent them to Antioch of Syria with Paul and Barnabas to report on this decision. The men chosen were two of the church leaders —Judas (also called Barsabbas) and Silas.23 This is the letter they took with them: <br style="LINE-HEIGHT: 0.7em">“This letter is from the apostles and elders, your brothers in Jerusalem. It is written to the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia. Greetings!24 “We understand that some men from here have troubled you and upset you with their teaching, but we did not send them!25 So we decided, having come to complete agreement, to send you official representatives, along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,26 who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.27 We are sending Judas and Silas to confirm what we have decided concerning your question.28 “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay no greater burden on you than these few requirements:29 You must abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality. If you do this, you will do well. Farewell.” <br style="LINE-HEIGHT: 0.7em">30 The messengers went at once to Antioch, where they called a general meeting of the believers and delivered the letter.Acts 15:1-30 (NLT)
Here the Apostles under the guidance of HolySpirit instructed the new believers that they only need to concern themselves with abstaining from food offered to idols, consuming blood or meat from strangled animals and from sexual immorality. They did not burden them with obedience to the law of Moses.
Maybe you should read it again.
But James and the Elders in Acts 21:20-21 were teaching the Law of Moses and the believing Jews were mad at Paul for teaching Jews that they did not have to keep the Law of Moses.
jiggyfly, no where did I include the writings of Paul when I asked where the scriptures are that say Jesus and the 12 said we are no longer under the Law of Moses.
It should be obvious that what I am driving at is that the Gospel of Grace, that was "hidden in God" did not exist until it was given to Paul. Many on forums say that the gospel of Grace was preached at the beginning long before Jesus came and I want those people to show me where, in the O.T., the first 4 books of the N.T. and the writings of the 12 the scriptures that say we are no longer under the Law of Moses. Is that to hard to understand? There are no scriptures in the O.T. or the first 4 books of the N.T. that say we are no longer under the Law of Moses. And for you I will add that only in the writings of Paul do we see that we are no longer under the Law of Moses.
I disagree, James and the elders including Peter, agreed that obedience to the law was no longer necessary. Acts 15 states very clearly that we are not under the law. Acts is not one of Paul's writings.
Then you do not know your Bible because you can not see what is written there.
No where in Acts 15 does James say """"THE JEWS""" were not under the Law of Moses. Read the words not the ideas in your head. James never, in any book, says the Jews are not required to keep the Law of Moses.
In the scriptures below we see James and the believers were zealous FOR the Law. The Jews never got mad at James and the Elders, just Paul because he was teaching the gospel of grace that was for all men.
Acts 21:20-25
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law;
21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.
22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come.
23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow.
24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law.
25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality."
NKJV
Was Paul teaching everyone that they were not under the Law anymore but under grace? Yes he was!!!!!!
Romans 9:30-33
Present Condition of Israel
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
33 As it is written: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
NKJV
Again James is not saying the Jews did not have to keep the Law of Moses.
If you can't see that Paul is saying that keeping the Law of Moses will not save a person then you will never see anything but what you want to see.
But this is a side show and does not give any replies to the suject of this thread ----- Show me, in the O.T., the first 4 books of the N.T., and the writtings of the 12 where it says we are no longer under the Law of Moses. It isn't there. Only Paul told us we are no longer under the Law but under the gospel of God's grace.
6 So the apostles and elders met together to resolve this issue.7 At the meeting, after a long discussion, Peter stood and addressed them as follows: “Brothers, you all know that God chose me from among you some time ago to preach to the Gentiles so that they could hear the Good News and believe.8 God knows people’s hearts, and he confirmed that he accepts Gentiles by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us.9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he cleansed their hearts through faith.10 So why are you now challenging God by burdening the Gentile believers with a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors were able to bear?11 We believe that we are all saved the same way, by the undeserved grace of the Lord Jesus.”Acts 15:6-11 (NLT)
Well at least you are reading the scriptures but it would be better if you really understood what was happening.
Question: was Cornelius saved under the "kingdom gospel (Abrahamic Covenant)" or the "gospel of the grace of God" as taught by Paul?
Cornelius was a blessing to Israel (Acts 10:2,22), and because of this God rewarded him with the hearing of the Word through Peter and receiving salvation. This is EXACTLY the way it was revealed to Abram in Genesis 12:3, "I will bless them [Gentiles] that bless thee" (Abram and his seed]. This is what James knew and so he quoted from Amos (Acts 15:12-19). Cornelius was saved through a saved Jew.
The Gentiles receiving salvation according to the Abrahamic Covenant under the preaching of the 12 were accepted as Jewish proselytes just as they always were under the Jewish law except this time the Gentiles were shown to be accepted "the same way that the Jews were in that they received the Holy Spirit when they believed in Jesus. This program will also be in effect at the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ as Israel's Messiah and the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple for the millennial reign of Christ. Peter knew accurately the program of God for Israel and the Gentile nations through the Jews. This is how we are to understand this passage in Acts 15:13-17. But the Jews, as a nation, rejected God's reign through Jesus and that reign has, temporarily, been set aside.
It does not refer to the Body of Christ and the Mystery revealed to Paul. Today we are not saved "through the Jews" since they have been blinded until the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled. Today, all are saved by the grace of God only. The Acts 2 interpretation, that it refers to the Church, the Body of Christ, is wrong. This whole incident is based on God's Kingdom program for Israel. Cornelius had become a proselyte under the Jewish law when Peter "commanded" him, and his household, to be water baptized; a Jewish custom under the law.
Peter never preached that the Law of Moses had ended for the Jews. Period.
Can I interject here?
Remember when Jesus said that He had come, not to abolish the law but to fulfil it? Just think about that for a second. He didn't come to say "hey guys, you know the law you've been following? Well I'm tossing in the garbage, because something new and better it here."
No, He came to fulfil...
Fulfil: 1. to bring about the completion or achievement of (a desire or promise)
2. to carry out or execute
3. to conform with or satisfy
4. to finish or reach the end of
The law wasn't unimportant, but once Jesus died and rose again, it was finished, completed.
Everything that either Peter or Paul, or any of the disciples and apostles for the matter, preached after that, was given to them by Jesus through the Holy Spirit.
The whole debate about the law, does it continue by Jesus' teachings or not by Paul's, is quite frankly, moot. Jesus fulfilled...period.
As far as Jesus and Paul teaching the same thing, well as I pointed out in post 22, which you haven't replied to yet, scripture clearly shows us that Jesus taught that He was the way, and so did Paul....their core message was exactly the same.
Remember when Jesus said that He had come, not to abolish the law but to fulfil it? Just think about that for a second. He didn't come to say "hey guys, you know the law you've been following? Well I'm tossing in the garbage, because something new and better it here."
No, He came to fulfil...
Fulfil: 1. to bring about the completion or achievement of (a desire or promise)
2. to carry out or execute
3. to conform with or satisfy
4. to finish or reach the end of
The law wasn't unimportant, but once Jesus died and rose again, it was finished, completed.
Everything that either Peter or Paul, or any of the disciples and apostles for the matter, preached after that, was given to them by Jesus through the Holy Spirit.
The whole debate about the law, does it continue by Jesus' teachings or not by Paul's, is quite frankly, moot. Jesus fulfilled...period.
As far as Jesus and Paul teaching the same thing, well as I pointed out in post 22, which you haven't replied to yet, scripture clearly shows us that Jesus taught that He was the way, and so did Paul....their core message was exactly the same.
Jesus fulfilled all that was written, (prophesied) about Him in the O.T. It included his shed blood on the cross because that was in prophesy. But no where did He rescind (annual) the Law of Moses.
No it isn't mute. It is important to see the programs of God as He has set them up. One program for the Jews (which has been set aside until the time of the Gentiles ends), and one for the Gentiles.
Again, this thread is about the fact that Jesus, the first 4 books of the N.T. and the writtings of James, John, and Peter never rescinded the Law of Moses. IF YOU CAN FIND WHERE THEY WERE RESCINDED SHOW IT. I am getting tired of having to say the same thing over and over again so I will no longer reply unless you can SHOW ME THE SCRIPTURES IN THE O.T., THE FIRST 4 BOOKS OF THE N.T that say the Law of Moses was rescinded. That is all this thread is about.
But we believe we are all saved by the same way.
That statement did not rescind the Law of Moses. As it plainly shows in Acts 21:20-21 The Jews still thought the Law of Moses was still in effect
FHII
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The problem is, Richard, that your demands are rediculous. You want to limit our search to the first 4 books of the NT and say name a few other writings. However, I can clearly show you that Peter himself rescinded the Law of Moses.
You commented on Cornelius. Yet, you never talked about the vision Peter had beforehand. He saw a table clothe full of meat that the Law said was unclean. Peter, being an idiot, told God three times he wouldn't eat unclean food. I love Peter, but he was a major screw up on several occasions. This was one of them. God was telling him that these meets were clean and go ahead and eat them. It is not a coincidence that Peter had these visions before Cornelius came looking for him. This was God telling him directly that the Law was ended. How you can possibly miss that point is beyond me.
I mean, you asking us to find where the Law was rescined in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, all the OT, the book of James, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, 1 Peter, 2 Peter and Revelations is like asking us to prove that there was a flood and limiting us to the book of Obahiah to prove it. What's really hard is that I agree with you on so much, but I don't see the point in this thread. Veteran put forth a theory, and while I respect his right to put forth a theory, I'd hate to think his theory is true. But it really looks like perhaps it is.
I don't like the practice of building up to a conclusion. I'm more a fan of stating your stance and saying, "This is what I believe, now deal with it." That person I can work with.
Sigh. I have never said that Jesus rescinded the law. I also will not give a verse for that, because it doesn't exist. I tell you what; I will 'find' a verse saying Jesus annulled the law if you find one saying that Jesus only fulfilled that one law for sacrifice. Exactly; it doesn't exist.
You say that this thread is about Jesus rescinding the law, yet when people give you an answer: Jesus did not rescind, but fulfil, you get frustrated. Jesus fulfilled ALL the law...He made all of it complete. If you want to justify rolling your eyes at us for our 'apparent denseness' then you must also prove your point. If Jesus only fulfilled some of the law, leaving some of it unfulfilled, then please show some scriptures and proof.
If Jesus did complete all the law as He claimed, then this thread has no point. With the law fulfilled the point becomes this: Jesus. Which is, Jew or Gentile, the same point that the disciples preached. Even should the Jews become 'God's people' again in time, the message will still be the same: Jesus. And I'm fairly certain that if we discovered a 'new race' of water breathing, sea dwelling, mutant people who couldn't come under anything resembling our laws, their laws or human laws; that their answer would be Jesus as well.
Here's the thing, Richard, you are human as is everyone on this board. Granted there will be many and varied opinions over what the Bible says. But if you come claiming a truth, or something different to the 'orthodox' beliefs, the burden of proof is actually on you. You can't say "I say the Bible says this; now everyone show me verses to prove I'm right", no, it falls to you to show us unequivocally that your 'idea' is right.
So please, before you continue with YOUR FRUSTRATED YELLING AT US, please show US the scriptures, and not sit there demanding we prove your negative.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
James speaking in command about and to... the Gentiles that believed (Apostle Paul and Barnabas were present):
Acts 15:19-21
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
(KJV)
Since when were the commandments to "abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood" not commandments written in God's Law? In relation to this command to Gentiles, why would James then mention about Moses being preached in every city in the synagogues on the sabbath? It was a suggestion as to how they the Gentiles might learn MORE of what God commands for His servants, of the Jews only? no but of Gentiles also!
Then the letters were written by the Apostles and elders at Jerusalem to the Gentile believers in the Churches...
Acts 15:22-29
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, "Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law": to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
(KJV)
Did those Apostles intend the Gentiles to follow ONLY those commandments from God's law? What about God's laws against murder, against incest, against homosexuality, etc.? James didn't mention those things, so did that mean it was OK for Gentiles to do those other things? No, of course not. Apostle Paul covered much of those other things in God's law when preaching to the Gentiles (as in Rom.1, 1 Cor.6, and Galatians 5 especially). Paul constantly preached to the Gentiles that it was very important as to what acts they were to have to be in Christ Jesus.
But some here want us Christians to be stupid, and think we can now do ANYTHING we want, break ANY of God's laws, and we'll still be in Christ's grace. Just who would want those in Christ Jesus to even think we now have liberty to do anything we want, disregarding all of God's laws? The devil would love us to think like that.
And that's actually what Richard's doctrines are here to try and do; to get us Gentiles to think regardless of what we do, we are not subject to any of God's laws. No wonder many today have accepted lifestyles contrary to God in His Word. They been taught it's OK with Christ by the false teachings of devils.
Acts 15:19-21
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
(KJV)
Since when were the commandments to "abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood" not commandments written in God's Law? In relation to this command to Gentiles, why would James then mention about Moses being preached in every city in the synagogues on the sabbath? It was a suggestion as to how they the Gentiles might learn MORE of what God commands for His servants, of the Jews only? no but of Gentiles also!
Then the letters were written by the Apostles and elders at Jerusalem to the Gentile believers in the Churches...
Acts 15:22-29
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, "Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law": to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
(KJV)
Did those Apostles intend the Gentiles to follow ONLY those commandments from God's law? What about God's laws against murder, against incest, against homosexuality, etc.? James didn't mention those things, so did that mean it was OK for Gentiles to do those other things? No, of course not. Apostle Paul covered much of those other things in God's law when preaching to the Gentiles (as in Rom.1, 1 Cor.6, and Galatians 5 especially). Paul constantly preached to the Gentiles that it was very important as to what acts they were to have to be in Christ Jesus.
But some here want us Christians to be stupid, and think we can now do ANYTHING we want, break ANY of God's laws, and we'll still be in Christ's grace. Just who would want those in Christ Jesus to even think we now have liberty to do anything we want, disregarding all of God's laws? The devil would love us to think like that.
And that's actually what Richard's doctrines are here to try and do; to get us Gentiles to think regardless of what we do, we are not subject to any of God's laws. No wonder many today have accepted lifestyles contrary to God in His Word. They been taught it's OK with Christ by the false teachings of devils.
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