Where are the scriptures?

RichardBurger · Jul 23, 2011

veteran said:
James speaking in command about and to... the Gentiles that believed (Apostle Paul and Barnabas were present):

Acts 15:19-21
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
(KJV)

Since when were the commandments to "abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood" not commandments written in God's Law? In relation to this command to Gentiles, why would James then mention about Moses being preached in every city in the synagogues on the sabbath? It was a suggestion as to how they the Gentiles might learn MORE of what God commands for His servants, of the Jews only? no but of Gentiles also!

Then the letters were written by the Apostles and elders at Jerusalem to the Gentile believers in the Churches...

Acts 15:22-29
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, "Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law": to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
(KJV)

Did those Apostles intend the Gentiles to follow ONLY those commandments from God's law? What about God's laws against murder, against incest, against homosexuality, etc.? James didn't mention those things, so did that mean it was OK for Gentiles to do those other things? No, of course not. Apostle Paul covered much of those other things in God's law when preaching to the Gentiles (as in Rom.1, 1 Cor.6, and Galatians 5 especially). Paul constantly preached to the Gentiles that it was very important as to what acts they were to have to be in Christ Jesus.

But some here want us Christians to be stupid, and think we can now do ANYTHING we want, break ANY of God's laws, and we'll still be in Christ's grace. Just who would want those in Christ Jesus to even think we now have liberty to do anything we want, disregarding all of God's laws? The devil would love us to think like that.

And that's actually what Richard's doctrines are here to try and do; to get us Gentiles to think regardless of what we do, we are not subject to any of God's laws. No wonder many today have accepted lifestyles contrary to God in His Word. They been taught it's OK with Christ by the false teachings of devils.

Again you are calling me a Devil and I am a child of God. You say that I am the one that is saying we are no longer under the Law. Sorry but you are wrong (again). It was Paul who said we are no longer under the law. Perhape you wish to call him a Devil too.

jiggyfly · Jul 24, 2011

veteran said:
Did those Apostles intend the Gentiles to follow ONLY those commandments from God's law? What about God's laws against murder, against incest, against homosexuality, etc.? James didn't mention those things, so did that mean it was OK for Gentiles to do those other things? No, of course not. Apostle Paul covered much of those other things in God's law when preaching to the Gentiles (as in Rom.1, 1 Cor.6, and Galatians 5 especially). Paul constantly preached to the Gentiles that it was very important as to what acts they were to have to be in Christ Jesus.

But some here want us Christians to be stupid, and think we can now do ANYTHING we want, break ANY of God's laws, and we'll still be in Christ's grace. Just who would want those in Christ Jesus to even think we now have liberty to do anything we want, disregarding all of God's laws? The devil would love us to think like that.

And that's actually what Richard's doctrines are here to try and do; to get us Gentiles to think regardless of what we do, we are not subject to any of God's laws. No wonder many today have accepted lifestyles contrary to God in His Word. They been taught it's OK with Christ by the false teachings of devils.

Can you elaborate some on this, it seems that you are advocating a works/law based salvation here. Did Paul say that we should follow the law to stay right with God?

RichardBurger · Jul 24, 2011

FHII said:
The problem is, Richard, that your demands are rediculous. You want to limit our search to the first 4 books of the NT and say name a few other writings. However, I can clearly show you that Peter himself rescinded the Law of Moses.

You commented on Cornelius. Yet, you never talked about the vision Peter had beforehand. He saw a table clothe full of meat that the Law said was unclean. Peter, being an idiot, told God three times he wouldn't eat unclean food. I love Peter, but he was a major screw up on several occasions. This was one of them. God was telling him that these meets were clean and go ahead and eat them. It is not a coincidence that Peter had these visions before Cornelius came looking for him. This was God telling him directly that the Law was ended. How you can possibly miss that point is beyond me.

I mean, you asking us to find where the Law was rescined in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, all the OT, the book of James, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, 1 Peter, 2 Peter and Revelations is like asking us to prove that there was a flood and limiting us to the book of Obahiah to prove it. What's really hard is that I agree with you on so much, but I don't see the point in this thread. Veteran put forth a theory, and while I respect his right to put forth a theory, I'd hate to think his theory is true. But it really looks like perhaps it is.

I don't like the practice of building up to a conclusion. I'm more a fan of stating your stance and saying, "This is what I believe, now deal with it." That person I can work with.

I don't have any demands. What I am showing is that the gospel of grace that was given to Paul WAS HIDDEN IN GOD just as Paul said it was. Grace rescinds the Law. However, NO WHERE in the O.T., the teachings of Jesus and the 12 do we find that they rescinded the Law of Moses. You only find it in Paul's writings. --- But maybe that isn't important to some.

Rach said:
Sigh. I have never said that Jesus rescinded the law. I also will not give a verse for that, because it doesn't exist. I tell you what; I will 'find' a verse saying Jesus annulled the law if you find one saying that Jesus only fulfilled that one law for sacrifice. Exactly; it doesn't exist.
You say that this thread is about Jesus rescinding the law, yet when people give you an answer: Jesus did not rescind, but fulfil, you get frustrated. Jesus fulfilled ALL the law...He made all of it complete. If you want to justify rolling your eyes at us for our 'apparent denseness' then you must also prove your point. If Jesus only fulfilled some of the law, leaving some of it unfulfilled, then please show some scriptures and proof.
If Jesus did complete all the law as He claimed, then this thread has no point. With the law fulfilled the point becomes this: Jesus. Which is, Jew or Gentile, the same point that the disciples preached. Even should the Jews become 'God's people' again in time, the message will still be the same: Jesus. And I'm fairly certain that if we discovered a 'new race' of water breathing, sea dwelling, mutant people who couldn't come under anything resembling our laws, their laws or human laws; that their answer would be Jesus as well.
Here's the thing, Richard, you are human as is everyone on this board. Granted there will be many and varied opinions over what the Bible says. But if you come claiming a truth, or something different to the 'orthodox' beliefs, the burden of proof is actually on you. You can't say "I say the Bible says this; now everyone show me verses to prove I'm right", no, it falls to you to show us unequivocally that your 'idea' is right.
So please, before you continue with YOUR FRUSTRATED YELLING AT US, please show US the scriptures, and not sit there demanding we prove your negative.

If you can see that Jesus never rescinded the Law and admit that there are no scriptures that say He did then you agree with me that there are no scriptures that say Jesus rescinded the law. So why are we at odds with each other?

Get off this idea that I am frustrated and yelling. Caps do not indicate that. They indicate my making something obvious. But go ahead and take the high ground and find fault with me PERSONALLY. It doen't matter to me. I am sure others will do it to you too.

veteran · Jul 24, 2011

jiggyfly said:
Can you elaborate some on this, it seems that you are advocating a works/law based salvation here. Did Paul say that we should follow the law to stay right with God?

I'm not advocating that we are saved by following the law. I'm advocating that having works in Christ Jesus is 'how' we prove our Faith on His Blood shed on the cross. If we claim to have believed on Christ Jesus unto Salvation, then we should be able to show it by our works for Him.

Titus 3:5-8
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
(KJV)

Notice how Paul declares we are only saved by God's mercy through His Son Jesus Christ. And then he commands us to be careful to maintain good works.

What may a believer on Christ Jesus expect for NOT being careful to maintain good works, but instead becomes reprobate against Christ? Paul covered that too, in Romans 1, Galatians 5, and 1 Cor.6. They won't inherit the Kingdom of God with those who remain faithful to Christ.

Rach1370 · Jul 24, 2011

RichardBurger said:
If you can see that Jesus never rescinded the Law and admit that there are no scriptures that say He did then you agree with me that there are no scriptures that say Jesus rescinded the law. So why are we at odds with each other?

Get off this idea that I am frustrated and yelling. Caps do not indicate that. They indicate my making something obvious. But go ahead and take the high ground and find fault with me PERSONALLY. It doen't matter to me. I am sure others will do it to you too.

The reason we are 'at odds', is because while I don't believe Jesus 'rescinded' the law, He did fulfil it, which puts us in a whole different place than just "under the law". As I have been trying to explain all along, having the law 'fulfilled' it has been completed and now we are totally 'under Christ'. It was the progression of it all, God's grand and perfect plan. The law, which led to Jesus, was completed and made perfect in Him. It's just like a story...in any story there is progression to the finish. Take, for example, any kids fairy tale...Beauty and the Beast. The story culminates in the 'Beast' being set free from his curse and turning back into the prince. How silly would it be then, for he and Belle to live from then with him still in 'beast' form? That would be going back to the imperfect, curse state. The story leads to a perfect finish, and in our story Jesus is the perfect finish to the law.

As far as the whole caps deal...I do not make online etiquette, but I am aware of it. If you want to make something obvious, try bolding or underlining. Caps, ask anyone, are the online equivalent of yelling. So, please don't blame me for taking it so....that's just how it is.
I am not angry at you, not at all. But it did seem a bit like hypocrisy that you kept demanding answers and verses from everyone (even when they had given you both) but you would ignore that very request from others...
You said to me " I am getting tired of having to say the same thing over and over again so I will no longer reply unless you can SHOW ME THE SCRIPTURES"
So, forgive me if I thought you were getting frustrated. Threatening to cut off the discussion just because I wasn't conforming exactly to your demands does tend to give one ideas.

veteran · Jul 24, 2011

What Richard is saying, that Apostle Paul 'rescinded' God's law, but Jesus did not, is about as contradictory and one can get against God's Word.

Our Lord Jesus said He did not come to destroy the law and the prophets, but to fulfill (Matt.5:17 forward).

Nor did Apostle Paul rescind the law either.

What Paul taught was that by walking by The Spirit in Christ Jesus, we become dead to the law (Rom.14; Gal.5). He never said the law itself is now dead. God's law becomes very alive for us again IF we walk by our flesh instead. That's the difference of what Paul taught.

Paul taught in Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2 just which part of God's laws were fulfilled by Christ upon His cross, "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" (Eph.2:15). Those commandments had to do with Old Covenant worship. The other commandments, judgments, and statutes still exist, which is why Paul taught his warnings in 1 Timothy 1, Romans 1, Galatians 5, and 1 Corinthians 6.

Richard is trying to create a separation between believing Israel and believing Gentiles according to the false Hyper-Dispensationalist doctrine which preaches grace only while omitting Paul's warnings about being careful to maintain good works in Christ so as to keep away from going back into bondage of the law.

For believing Israel Christ did not 'rescind' the law he will say, and then suppose for believing Gentiles that the law was rescinded by Paul. That is a vain attempt to separate Christ's Body which together is made up of both believing Jews and believing Gentiles.

But it is actually a false doctrine originating from 'false Jews', "false brethren" (Gal.2:4) like the Jewish converts from the Pharisee traditions. How so, some might ask?

It's those "false brethren" that came up with the idea that believing Gentiles can practice anything and will still be automatically saved by Christ for just believing on Him. That is to infer that we can now do murder and it won't matter, that we can steal and it won't matter, practice adultery and fornication and it won't matter, even practice paganism and it won't matter, etc.

It does matter what we do after having coming to Faith on Christ Jesus. That's why repentance of future sins after our belief on Christ Jesus also matters. To teach that it doesn't matter is to make a mockery of The Father and His Son in His Word.

Teaching that also involves a concerted effort by the "synagogue of Satan" to get believing Gentiles to think they have a license to sin and they'll still be saved. Thus that doctrine is a 'specific' attack upon us believing Gentiles, what those false Jews call us Gentiles as 'goyim' with their reasoning per the Babylonian Talmud, goyim being put for mere cattle in the figurative sense. That's how those false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan" see us Gentiles, as mere cattle, animals, made to be destroyed. And that's where those doctrines Richard has been preaching here originate from. They are designed to destroy Christians in general by allowing anything one wants to practice per their flesh, and still think to be saved by Christ.

jiggyfly · Jul 25, 2011

veteran said:
I'm not advocating that we are saved by following the law. I'm advocating that having works in Christ Jesus is 'how' we prove our Faith on His Blood shed on the cross. If we claim to have believed on Christ Jesus unto Salvation, then we should be able to show it by our works for Him.

Titus 3:5-8
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
(KJV)

Notice how Paul declares we are only saved by God's mercy through His Son Jesus Christ. And then he commands us to be careful to maintain good works.

What may a believer on Christ Jesus expect for NOT being careful to maintain good works, but instead becomes reprobate against Christ? Paul covered that too, in Romans 1, Galatians 5, and 1 Cor.6. They won't inherit the Kingdom of God with those who remain faithful to Christ.

Thanks for clarifying Veteran

veteran said:
What Richard is saying, that Apostle Paul 'rescinded' God's law, but Jesus did not, is about as contradictory and one can get against God's Word.

Our Lord Jesus said He did not come to destroy the law and the prophets, but to fulfill (Matt.5:17 forward).

Nor did Apostle Paul rescind the law either.

What Paul taught was that by walking by The Spirit in Christ Jesus, we become dead to the law (Rom.14; Gal.5). He never said the law itself is now dead. God's law becomes very alive for us again IF we walk by our flesh instead. That's the difference of what Paul taught.

Paul taught in Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2 just which part of God's laws were fulfilled by Christ upon His cross, "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" (Eph.2:15). Those commandments had to do with Old Covenant worship. The other commandments, judgments, and statutes still exist, which is why Paul taught his warnings in 1 Timothy 1, Romans 1, Galatians 5, and 1 Corinthians 6.

Richard is trying to create a separation between believing Israel and believing Gentiles according to the false Hyper-Dispensationalist doctrine which preaches grace only while omitting Paul's warnings about being careful to maintain good works in Christ so as to keep away from going back into bondage of the law.

For believing Israel Christ did not 'rescind' the law he will say, and then suppose for believing Gentiles that the law was rescinded by Paul. That is a vain attempt to separate Christ's Body which together is made up of both believing Jews and believing Gentiles.

But it is actually a false doctrine originating from 'false Jews', "false brethren" (Gal.2:4) like the Jewish converts from the Pharisee traditions. How so, some might ask?

It's those "false brethren" that came up with the idea that believing Gentiles can practice anything and will still be automatically saved by Christ for just believing on Him. That is to infer that we can now do murder and it won't matter, that we can steal and it won't matter, practice adultery and fornication and it won't matter, even practice paganism and it won't matter, etc.

It does matter what we do after having coming to Faith on Christ Jesus. That's why repentance of future sins after our belief on Christ Jesus also matters. To teach that it doesn't matter is to make a mockery of The Father and His Son in His Word.

Teaching that also involves a concerted effort by the "synagogue of Satan" to get believing Gentiles to think they have a license to sin and they'll still be saved. Thus that doctrine is a 'specific' attack upon us believing Gentiles, what those false Jews call us Gentiles as 'goyim' with their reasoning per the Babylonian Talmud, goyim being put for mere cattle in the figurative sense. That's how those false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan" see us Gentiles, as mere cattle, animals, made to be destroyed. And that's where those doctrines Richard has been preaching here originate from. They are designed to destroy Christians in general by allowing anything one wants to practice per their flesh, and still think to be saved by Christ.

So it seems you don't believe that Christ took away the sins of the world or that He bore everyone's sins on the cross, is this correct?

goodshepard55 · Jul 25, 2011

Can I ask a question here? Does anyone here commit murder? Do you covet your neighbors? Do you commit adultery? Do you have other Gods before you? Do you steal? Of course you don't, Jesus Christ fulfilled the laws of God because He was the only one that could in His time on earth...We have the laws written in our hearts and the Holy Spirit is fast to convict us when we step out of the laws of God....He is the teacher and the voice of truth...We know when we have sinned for the Spirit of God brings the conviction and we ask for forgiveness...I believe that Jesus was the only one in history that could up hold all the laws of God...He fulfilled each and everyone and then took all the sin we will ever commit and the sin of ever human ever born on earth to that cross...all the laws, ordinances were fulfilled...We do not stone people today for going to the store or cooking on the Sabbath day...We can eat any food as long as we give thanksgiving...the Word of God tells us those things...Jesus spoke of two things...To love God above everything else...and to love our neighbors...and all the law hangs on those two things....if we do that then all the other 8 are followed without even blinking an eye...see the thing is whether they were abolished or not...we the children of God almost automatically follow them without even thinking...or most followers of Christ I know do anyway...if we don't then are we really a child of the Living God? Can we go around killing and thinking we won't end up in hell, can we steal or have other gods before God and see Him in Heaven? Do not most of us here follow those commandments naturally? I think what Richard is trying to say is...that after we come to Christ...we lose the sin nature, and after awhile the walk with Him becomes so easy, that not sinning is second nature, or if we do sin we are so fast to confess and repent...do you know that repent means to change our ways...so we are suppose to be changing our ways and working towards being sinless...not worrying about the sins, but changing to not sin...really stop and think...how many here are honest enough to say how many times today you broke one of the 10 Laws given to Moses by God? I for one can not think of the last time I did so....of course they are other things we might need to repent of, but they are not one of the 10...We are suppose to working to be more like Jesus each and everyday...not waiting until next week to start on that goal...each day we should be trying to more like Him..and doing what He said to do, and not be worrying about what was rescinded or what was not rescinded.....

veteran · Jul 25, 2011

jiggyfly said:
Thanks for clarifying Veteran

jiggyfly said:
So it seems you don't believe that Christ took away the sins of the world or that He bore everyone's sins on the cross, is this correct?

I'm assuming you're able to read my posts, since your first response showed that. But your last response seems to be backing up.

To summarize what I said: Christ died on the cross for those who believe on The Father through Him, for the remission of sins past. For sins we may commit in the future, we need to repent to Him in obedience to Him. When we sin, we automatically revert to walking by our flesh, which means placing ourselves back under the law. Paul taught we are only dead to the law IF we walk by The Spirit. He did not teach the law was dead, but that 'we' become dead to the law if we stay in Christ Jesus. That's why future repentance is still necessary, and very important, for that's how we remain in His grace.

Shep said:
Can I ask a question here? Does anyone here commit murder? Do you covet your neighbors? Do you commit adultery? Do you have other Gods before you? Do you steal? Of course you don't, Jesus Christ fulfilled the laws of God because He was the only one that could in His time on earth...We have the laws written in our hearts and the Holy Spirit is fast to convict us when we step out of the laws of God....He is the teacher and the voice of truth...We know when we have sinned for the Spirit of God brings the conviction and we ask for forgiveness...I believe that Jesus was the only one in history that could up hold all the laws of God...He fulfilled each and everyone and then took all the sin we will ever commit and the sin of ever human ever born on earth to that cross...all the laws, ordinances were fulfilled...We do not stone people today for going to the store or cooking on the Sabbath day...We can eat any food as long as we give thanksgiving...the Word of God tells us those things...Jesus spoke of two things...To love God above everything else...and to love our neighbors...and all the law hangs on those two things....if we do that then all the other 8 are followed without even blinking an eye...see the thing is whether they were abolished or not...we the children of God almost automatically follow them without even thinking...or most followers of Christ I know do anyway...if we don't then are we really a child of the Living God? Can we go around killing and thinking we won't end up in hell, can we steal or have other gods before God and see Him in Heaven? Do not most of us here follow those commandments naturally? I think what Richard is trying to say is...that after we come to Christ...we lose the sin nature, and after awhile the walk with Him becomes so easy, that not sinning is second nature, or if we do sin we are so fast to confess and repent...do you know that repent means to change our ways...so we are suppose to be changing our ways and working towards being sinless...not worrying about the sins, but changing to not sin...really stop and think...how many here are honest enough to say how many times today you broke one of the 10 Laws given to Moses by God? I for one can not think of the last time I did so....of course they are other things we might need to repent of, but they are not one of the 10...We are suppose to working to be more like Jesus each and everyday...not waiting until next week to start on that goal...each day we should be trying to more like Him..and doing what He said to do, and not be worrying about what was rescinded or what was not rescinded.....

We are going to have sin even after coming to Christ. It's because of the order of this world and the bodies and desires of this world. Only our Lord Jesus could be Perfect here without sin, which is why we cannot be. But not all who claim to be a Christian believe in following what our Lord and His Apostles said for us to do. That's why these debates have come up, for it's about those who think they can do anything and still claim Christ's grace.

jiggyfly · Jul 25, 2011

veteran said:
I'm assuming you're able to read my posts, since your first response showed that. But your last response seems to be backing up.

To summarize what I said: Christ died on the cross for those who believe on The Father through Him, for the remission of sins past. For sins we may commit in the future, we need to repent to Him in obedience to Him. When we sin, we automatically revert to walking by our flesh, which means placing ourselves back under the law. Paul taught we are only dead to the law IF we walk by The Spirit. He did not teach the law was dead, but that 'we' become dead to the law if we stay in Christ Jesus. That's why future repentance is still necessary, and very important, for that's how we remain in His grace.

What scriptures do you base this on?

Rach1370 · Jul 25, 2011

Shep said:
Can I ask a question here? Does anyone here commit murder? Do you covet your neighbors? Do you commit adultery? Do you have other Gods before you? Do you steal? Of course you don't, Jesus Christ fulfilled the laws of God because He was the only one that could in His time on earth...We have the laws written in our hearts and the Holy Spirit is fast to convict us when we step out of the laws of God....He is the teacher and the voice of truth...We know when we have sinned for the Spirit of God brings the conviction and we ask for forgiveness...I believe that Jesus was the only one in history that could up hold all the laws of God...He fulfilled each and everyone and then took all the sin we will ever commit and the sin of ever human ever born on earth to that cross...all the laws, ordinances were fulfilled...We do not stone people today for going to the store or cooking on the Sabbath day...We can eat any food as long as we give thanksgiving...the Word of God tells us those things...Jesus spoke of two things...To love God above everything else...and to love our neighbors...and all the law hangs on those two things....if we do that then all the other 8 are followed without even blinking an eye...see the thing is whether they were abolished or not...we the children of God almost automatically follow them without even thinking...or most followers of Christ I know do anyway...if we don't then are we really a child of the Living God? Can we go around killing and thinking we won't end up in hell, can we steal or have other gods before God and see Him in Heaven? Do not most of us here follow those commandments naturally? I think what Richard is trying to say is...that after we come to Christ...we lose the sin nature, and after awhile the walk with Him becomes so easy, that not sinning is second nature, or if we do sin we are so fast to confess and repent...do you know that repent means to change our ways...so we are suppose to be changing our ways and working towards being sinless...not worrying about the sins, but changing to not sin...really stop and think...how many here are honest enough to say how many times today you broke one of the 10 Laws given to Moses by God? I for one can not think of the last time I did so....of course they are other things we might need to repent of, but they are not one of the 10...We are suppose to working to be more like Jesus each and everyday...not waiting until next week to start on that goal...each day we should be trying to more like Him..and doing what He said to do, and not be worrying about what was rescinded or what was not rescinded.....

This is a beautiful post Shep! So very well put.
It does bring to mind a concern, however...while most of the Christians that you know personally (and me too I suppose) are faithful to follow Jesus and do their best to repent; unfortunately there are many out there who do claim Christ but seem to totally disregard a lot of scripture. Do you suppose they are not saved then? I don't know. All I know is that while I do my very best to grow in Jesus every day and correct that which I am convicted of, I am still a sinful being. I have the joy and hope within me, knowing as I do that the Holy Spirit will continue His work in me until the day I see Jesus face to face, but it doesn't change the fact that I am completely aware of the things I am being convicted of daily...and that there are probably sins I am not aware of...The Law of God may indeed be written on my heart, but until Christ comes again I am still a sinful being, my nature is to defy those laws. I know it is only through the Holy Spirit that I am able to fight that nature....and I thank God for that miracle every day!!

FHII · Jul 25, 2011

RichardBurger said:
No where in Acts 15 does James say """"THE JEWS""" were not under the Law of Moses. Read the words not the ideas in your head. James never, in any book, says the Jews are not required to keep the Law of Moses.

Actually, Richard is right on this point. I've looked at these verses over and over. Richard is right in that Never rescinded the Law to the Jews. Furthermore, he did a poor job at doing it to the gentiles.

Acts 15:18 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble them, whic from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

Here, James is saying, "our Law is too much for them. We are toubling them. We ain't going to do it anymore."

But he goes on....

19 But we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

The problem is that Paul never preached that either, and continued to preach free eatings of meets. Yes, he did preach somewhat about pollution from idols, but not totally. Fornication, well, he preached totally against that but only if you really know what he meant. THings strangled? Blood? No. But Richard is right. THis was given to the Gentiles. Paul didn't follow it so really, I conclude the whole council at Jerusalem meant nothing to Paul, and I have scripture to back that up.

veteran · Jul 26, 2011

FHII said:
Actually, Richard is right on this point. I've looked at these verses over and over. Richard is right in that Never rescinded the Law to the Jews. Furthermore, he did a poor job at doing it to the gentiles.

Acts 15:18 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble them, whic from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

Here, James is saying, "our Law is too much for them. We are toubling them. We ain't going to do it anymore."

But he goes on....

19 But we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

The problem is that Paul never preached that either, and continued to preach free eatings of meets. Yes, he did preach somewhat about pollution from idols, but not totally. Fornication, well, he preached totally against that but only if you really know what he meant. THings strangled? Blood? No. But Richard is right. THis was given to the Gentiles. Paul didn't follow it so really, I conclude the whole council at Jerusalem meant nothing to Paul, and I have scripture to back that up.

I can't believe I'm having to show this...

Apostle Paul speaking...

1 Cor 5:1-2
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
(KJV)

How would Paul know that act of incest is against Christ? Because it was first written in Leviticus.

It is still a punishable offense in the U.S. today too.

Can we rightfully say it's OK to drink blood just because Paul didn't mention it in his Epistles? What kind of break down in reasoning is that?

And no, Paul did not preach that scavenger animals are now somehow clean meats to eat.

RichardBurger · Jul 26, 2011

FHII said:
Actually, Richard is right on this point. I've looked at these verses over and over. Richard is right in that Never rescinded the Law to the Jews. Furthermore, he did a poor job at doing it to the gentiles.

Acts 15:18 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble them, whic from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

Here, James is saying, "our Law is too much for them. We are toubling them. We ain't going to do it anymore."

But he goes on....

19 But we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

The problem is that Paul never preached that either, and continued to preach free eatings of meets. Yes, he did preach somewhat about pollution from idols, but not totally. Fornication, well, he preached totally against that but only if you really know what he meant. THings strangled? Blood? No. But Richard is right. THis was given to the Gentiles. Paul didn't follow it so really, I conclude the whole council at Jerusalem meant nothing to Paul, and I have scripture to back that up.

Thank you for actually reading the scriptures to see "what they say" instead of what man says.

Groundzero · Jul 26, 2011

I am not 100% certain what is being discussed here, but if it's about whether the Law is still in effect and all that, this is something that I thought of:

When Jesus died, the veil that separated the Holiest of Holies from the rest of the Temple was torn. Interestingly, it was from top to bottom. God tore it open because no longer did we have to go through the high priest to get to God, because God had made a way for us to come to him through Jesus Christ.

Mat_27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

veteran · Jul 27, 2011

Groundzero said:
I am not 100% certain what is being discussed here, but if it's about whether the Law is still in effect and all that, this is something that I thought of:

When Jesus died, the veil that separated the Holiest of Holies from the rest of the Temple was torn. Interestingly, it was from top to bottom. God tore it open because no longer did we have to go through the high priest to get to God, because God had made a way for us to come to him through Jesus Christ.

Mat_27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

That's right.

RichardBurger · Jul 27, 2011

What I have tried to show is that the church that was built on the teachings of Jesus and the 12 which was """under Law""" was a serious mis-take. The church for us, under grace, is built on the teaching of Paul. Paul was given a gospel ""by Jesus""that was "hidden in God" just as he said it was. Once this is understood the scriptures come alive and the confussion disappears.

But I know this is hard to take by many that will not see it. Certainly the religious are against people understanding this because look at what it does to the standard teachings of the church today. There are some on this forum that say I am a devil teaching the devil's doctrine. They fail to see that I am teaching the gospel of grace that Paul gave us. Law and grace can not be mixed. The teachings of Jesus and the 12 are under law and the teachings of Paul are under grace.

No one has shown by the scriptures that the Law was rescined by Jesus or the 12. I think I have made that obvious while ducking the stones. Ha! Ha!

Rach1370 · Jul 27, 2011

RichardBurger said:
What I have tried to show is that the church that was built on the teachings of Jesus and the 12 which was """under Law""" was a serious mis-take. The church for us, under grace, is built on the teaching of Paul. Paul was given a gospel ""by Jesus""that was "hidden in God" just as he said it was. Once this is understood the scriptures come alive and the confussion disappears.

But I know this is hard to take by many that will not see it. Certainly the religious are against people understanding this because look at what it does to the standard teachings of the church today. There are some on this forum that say I am a devil teaching the devil's doctrine. They fail to see that I am teaching the gospel of grace that Paul gave us. Law and grace can not be mixed. The teachings of Jesus and the 12 are under law and the teachings of Paul are under grace.

No one has shown by the scriptures that the Law was rescined by Jesus or the 12. I think I have made that obvious while ducking the stones. Ha! Ha!

I agree that law and grace cannot be mixed, but I don't think Jesus was ever saying that. I think that you still do not comprehend what 'fulfilled' actually implies. You say 'ha, no one has shown by scriptures that the Law was rescinded by Jesus'. We've said, that of course not, the law was not rescinded by fulfilled.

Your whole argument seems to be based on the fact that Jesus and the 12 taught 'under the law', where as Jesus actually taught on the basis of that Law being completed in Him. Why on earth would He come to bring it to completion but still require people to live under it??
Just consider...what was the Law of Moses for...basically, it was for ritual cleanliness and atonement for sin. God required sacrifice for the sins of man, and the laws covered that, but in an imperfect way. Jesus came to be the perfect fulfilment of those laws, so that once and for all the sins of man would be paid for. Once Jesus died on the cross man would never need to offer sacrifices again...there would be no point to it. So why would Jesus and the 12 teach under and of a system that was quite obviously finished?

I think your basic idea of trying to show to many of the 'religious' that the Law of Moses is no more, is a good one. But truly, the way your coming at it is why you are receiving so much resistance. Your starting from a faulty premise of what Jesus actually taught...so instead of getting to the heart of the matter with many, you're stuck in a never ending argument on what the 'good news' was and is.
I think your best bet with this, is to forget Paul for a moment, and really focus on Jesus, on what He was saying and what He actually came to do....His whole reason for coming was to finish a faulty system, so that man could once again be in harmony with God.

Groundzero · Jul 27, 2011

RichardBurger said:
What I have tried to show is that the church that was built on the teachings of Jesus and the 12 which was """under Law""" was a serious mis-take. The church for us, under grace, is built on the teaching of Paul. Paul was given a gospel ""by Jesus""that was "hidden in God" just as he said it was. Once this is understood the scriptures come alive and the confussion disappears.

But I know this is hard to take by many that will not see it. Certainly the religious are against people understanding this because look at what it does to the standard teachings of the church today. There are some on this forum that say I am a devil teaching the devil's doctrine. They fail to see that I am teaching the gospel of grace that Paul gave us. Law and grace can not be mixed. The teachings of Jesus and the 12 are under law and the teachings of Paul are under grace.

No one has shown by the scriptures that the Law was rescined by Jesus or the 12. I think I have made that obvious while ducking the stones. Ha! Ha!

Who founded the Church? Jesus! If the Church was founded on Jesus, then the teachings of the Church must be the teachings of Jesus, or that church is no longer on the foundation that it was meant to be! Jesus never cancelled the law, but he fulfilled it! (Mat_5:17 ) As to the twelve, they followed everything that Jesus stated. When the Jews made a fuss over circumcision, this is what James said:
Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

If the disciples were sticking to the letter of the law, they missed some major points here! Paul did not have a separate revelation, but was the one, under the Holy Spirit's inspiration, who actually delved deeper into the subject and expounded grace for us.

RichardBurger · Jul 27, 2011

Rach said:
I agree that law and grace cannot be mixed, but I don't think Jesus was ever saying that. I think that you still do not comprehend what 'fulfilled' actually implies. You say 'ha, no one has shown by scriptures that the Law was rescinded by Jesus'. We've said, that of course not, the law was not rescinded by fulfilled.

Your whole argument seems to be based on the fact that Jesus and the 12 taught 'under the law', where as Jesus actually taught on the basis of that Law being completed in Him. Why on earth would He come to bring it to completion but still require people to live under it??
Just consider...what was the Law of Moses for...basically, it was for ritual cleanliness and atonement for sin. God required sacrifice for the sins of man, and the laws covered that, but in an imperfect way. Jesus came to be the perfect fulfilment of those laws, so that once and for all the sins of man would be paid for. Once Jesus died on the cross man would never need to offer sacrifices again...there would be no point to it. So why would Jesus and the 12 teach under and of a system that was quite obviously finished?

I think your basic idea of trying to show to many of the 'religious' that the Law of Moses is no more, is a good one. But truly, the way your coming at it is why you are receiving so much resistance. Your starting from a faulty premise of what Jesus actually taught...so instead of getting to the heart of the matter with many, you're stuck in a never ending argument on what the 'good news' was and is.
I think your best bet with this, is to forget Paul for a moment, and really focus on Jesus, on what He was saying and what He actually came to do....His whole reason for coming was to finish a faulty system, so that man could once again be in harmony with God.

Do I criticize you and how you present what you write? Why do you feel it necessary to do that to me? Is it an ego thing that builds you up by putting me down? You are not my father nor my mother and I am quite old. How about showing some respect for an equal.

It is clear that Jesus Christ, by His own words, did not come to minister to the Gentiles, nor was His message "the kingdom gospel" sent to the Gentiles. He did not offer the "kingdom of heaven" TO the Gentiles. The following scriptures support my view.

Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ)
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ)
23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Paul said: Rom 15:8 (NKJ)
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Note that in Matt 10:5-7 and Matt 15:23-24 Jesus said He did not come EXCEPT to the house of Israel. Jesus came to confirm/fulfill all that was written of Him in the O.T. His mission was to the Jews, not to the Gentiles. This is what Paul meant in Rom 15:8.

Matthew 5:17-20
Christ Fulfills the Law
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
NKJV

Verse 18 comment: The Law of Moses has been set aside along with the Jews. However, it will be re-instituted when Jesus sets up the promised kingdom of the Jews.

Today the only way our righteousness can exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees is for God to place use “in Christ.” We, by our efforts, can’t do it. It is the work of the Holy Spirit.

I have shown that Jesus and the 12 never reciended the Law of Moses. Only the gospel given to Paul by Jesus reciended the Law of Moses. Therefore, today we are not saved under the covenant program for the Jews.

Where are the scriptures?

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