Where are the scriptures?

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veteran

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So Apostle Paul didn't teach that murder, fornication, adultery, stealing, incest, homosexuality, sorcery, idolatry, etc., were still wrong? Did our Lord Jesus really 'fulfill' all that on His cross? Ah, so that's why today's judges stay so busy letting murderers and thieves go free! It's because there ain't no more law! Right. Blind leaders of the blind.
 

Rach1370

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So Apostle Paul didn't teach that murder, fornication, adultery, stealing, incest, homosexuality, sorcery, idolatry, etc., were still wrong? Did our Lord Jesus really 'fulfill' all that on His cross? Ah, so that's why today's judges stay so busy letting murderers and thieves go free! It's because there ain't no more law! Right. Blind leaders of the blind.

I think way too many people take the whole "law of Moses being fulfilled" and run with it to total freedom on actions, responsibility etc. They reason that in Christ they are free to behave as they choose.
But as you say, anyone who even casually glances at scripture can see that is not so. Jesus clearly did not condone breaking the 10 commandments. What Jesus fulfilled was all the things that dealt with sin atonement and the whole sacrificial cleanliness issues. The law of Moses is different to what and how a Christian should say and behave. I mean, seriously, just look at the 10 commandments...if anyone can find any scripture's that show Jesus or any of the other NT writers dismissing them....well...then I would have to say they have serious issues on interpreting scripture!!
There's a huge difference between being free from sin and free to ignore the general edicts laid out by our God. The first we rejoice in, the second we should heed with a seriousness that is due for our God and redeemer.
 

Rach1370

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Do I criticize you and how you present what you write? Why do you feel it necessary to do that to me? Is it an ego thing that builds you up by putting me down? You are not my father nor my mother and I am quite old. How about showing some respect for an equal.

It is clear that Jesus Christ, by His own words, did not come to minister to the Gentiles, nor was His message "the kingdom gospel" sent to the Gentiles. He did not offer the "kingdom of heaven" TO the Gentiles. The following scriptures support my view.

Look, you misunderstand me. I have no intention of putting you down...especially to make myself look good. I honestly was only trying to help clarify what you were saying. I do not care for my ego...that is not why I'm here. My only concern is the truth...what scripture actually tells us.
You say that Jesus did not come to minister to the Gentiles...and yet He did just that on a couple of occasions. His primary audience was the Jews, that is true...He taught in Israel. But He did not turn Gentiles away...he healed them and spoke to them. Remember the woman at the well, that He spoke to of the 'living water'. That was a gospel message, no doubt.

[13] Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, [14] but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
(John 4:13-14 ESV)


'Eternal life'? He is speaking of redemption, salvation, grace. Life eternal in the Kingdom of God....to a Samaritan woman.

Today the only way our righteousness can exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees is for God to place use “in Christ.” We, by our efforts, can’t do it. It is the work of the Holy Spirit.

I have shown that Jesus and the 12 never reciended the Law of Moses. Only the gospel given to Paul by Jesus reciended the Law of Moses. Therefore, today we are not saved under the covenant program for the Jews.

Agreed...for the first part. But, as I have said time and again...I am not saying that Christ rescinded the Law of Moses. He fulfilled it. Completed the work in progress. It did not make it useless, gone....just finished. And yes, we are not saved under the covenant program of the Jews...but neither are the Jews. The moment Jesus died on the cross the Jews became just like everyone else...salvation wise. Of course they still had their culture...which while not necessary for salvation, was not sinful.

Look Richard...I truly mean you no ill will. I speak plainly to you, but so do you to me, and to all others. I clearly disagree with some of your ideas, as you do mine...but you seem to feel that cannot be done with respect...that in disagreeing with you I am 'trashing' you. That is not so, and I would hope that as you disagree with me, you do not feel that way either. This is a discussion board, and you will find that most here do not agree with one another. I do not disagree with you to make myself look good, or to make you look bad...I disagree with you because I truly believe that what I say is the truth...obviously you feel the same. If you cannot discuss our differing opinions, just tell me and I will discontinue this discussion.
 

jiggyfly

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I think way too many people take the whole "law of Moses being fulfilled" and run with it to total freedom on actions, responsibility etc. They reason that in Christ they are free to behave as they choose.
But as you say, anyone who even casually glances at scripture can see that is not so. Jesus clearly did not condone breaking the 10 commandments. What Jesus fulfilled was all the things that dealt with sin atonement and the whole sacrificial cleanliness issues. The law of Moses is different to what and how a Christian should say and behave. I mean, seriously, just look at the 10 commandments...if anyone can find any scripture's that show Jesus or any of the other NT writers dismissing them....well...then I would have to say they have serious issues on interpreting scripture!!
There's a huge difference between being free from sin and free to ignore the general edicts laid out by our God. The first we rejoice in, the second we should heed with a seriousness that is due for our God and redeemer.

Hey Rach, you ever read 2 Corinthians 3:7-18?
 

RichardBurger

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Look, you misunderstand me. I have no intention of putting you down...especially to make myself look good. I honestly was only trying to help clarify what you were saying. I do not care for my ego...that is not why I'm here. My only concern is the truth...what scripture actually tells us.
You say that Jesus did not come to minister to the Gentiles...and yet He did just that on a couple of occasions. His primary audience was the Jews, that is true...He taught in Israel. But He did not turn Gentiles away...he healed them and spoke to them. Remember the woman at the well, that He spoke to of the 'living water'. That was a gospel message, no doubt.

[13] Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, [14] but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
(John 4:13-14 ESV)


'Eternal life'? He is speaking of redemption, salvation, grace. Life eternal in the Kingdom of God....to a Samaritan woman.



Agreed...for the first part. But, as I have said time and again...I am not saying that Christ rescinded the Law of Moses. He fulfilled it. Completed the work in progress. It did not make it useless, gone....just finished. And yes, we are not saved under the covenant program of the Jews...but neither are the Jews. The moment Jesus died on the cross the Jews became just like everyone else...salvation wise. Of course they still had their culture...which while not necessary for salvation, was not sinful.

Look Richard...I truly mean you no ill will. I speak plainly to you, but so do you to me, and to all others. I clearly disagree with some of your ideas, as you do mine...but you seem to feel that cannot be done with respect...that in disagreeing with you I am 'trashing' you. That is not so, and I would hope that as you disagree with me, you do not feel that way either. This is a discussion board, and you will find that most here do not agree with one another. I do not disagree with you to make myself look good, or to make you look bad...I disagree with you because I truly believe that what I say is the truth...obviously you feel the same. If you cannot discuss our differing opinions, just tell me and I will discontinue this discussion.

If what you say is correct then confine your comments to the ideas and scriptures I present and don't talk about ""ME"".

If you read what many say to me you will see that most only want to talk about me, to shot the messenger. And then they will sit back and accuse me of taking it too personal. Look at most all of the replies. They can't find any scriptures that say Jesus and the 12 rescinded the Law of Moses so they just attack me personally.

You said: "You say that Jesus did not come to minister to the Gentiles" --- No, I said the """scriptures say He did not come to the Gentiles""". In Jesus' own words He said He did not come to the Gentiles. There is a difference.


It should be seen that the Law of Moses has been put on hold until the time of the Gentiles has ended. When grace entered it was necessary to place the Law of Moses on hold. Law is not grace neither is grace law. The two are not compatible.

Yet modern theology teaches the message Jesus and the 12 preached to the Jews under the Law and applies it to the grace church. They put law into grace and leave us with nothing but confusion.

Acts 11:19
19 Now those who were scattered after the persecution that arose over Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to no one but the Jews only.
NKJV
 

Rach1370

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Hey Rach, you ever read 2 Corinthians 3:7-18?

Hey Jiggy. Yeah, I've read it...perhaps I need to expound my idea a bit. Remember when Jesus said that all the law was now wrapped up in 2 commands...Love God and love others? You'll find that if we do these 2 things well, that the 10 commandments are actually being met....

1. “You shall have no other gods before me." (Love God)
2. “You shall not worship Idols" (Love God)
3. “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain." (Love God)
4. “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." (Jesus tells us that the Sabbath was actually made FOR man...so that we may rest and be aware of our God who loves us)
5. “Honor your father and your mother." (Love others)
6. “You shall not murder." (Love others)
7. “You shall not commit adultery." (Love others...but not in that way!!!!)
8. “You shall not steal." (Love others)
9. “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." (Love others)
10.“You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.” (Love others)

So, you see my point? To truly love something, we must also respect it...loving and respecting something..be it our God, or other people...will see us following these basic 'Laws'.
 

aspen

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So Apostle Paul didn't teach that murder, fornication, adultery, stealing, incest, homosexuality, sorcery, idolatry, etc., were still wrong? Did our Lord Jesus really 'fulfill' all that on His cross? Ah, so that's why today's judges stay so busy letting murderers and thieves go free! It's because there ain't no more law! Right. Blind leaders of the blind.

If you love perfectly, it is impossible to commit any of the sins you listed. The point is that trying to follow an external law by not committing sinful behavior does not change the heart......it only clarifies the symptoms of an unredeemed heart. Submitting to Christ's justification and sanctification teaches us to love perfectly, which gets to the root of the problem. No longer are we trying not to sin - we are now saved from sinning because we approach all people and God and creation from the starting point of love. We will only graduate from God's school of love when we reach Heaven, but we can make isolated, perfect acts of love on Earth, while we practice our sanctification.

Alcoholism works the same way.....if an alcoholic tries to quit alcohol by denying drink.......he will be drinking again in no time. If, instead, he deals with the underlying issue, and chooses a new behavior to soothe himself when unpleasant feelings arise, he will be more likely to abstain.
 

Rach1370

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If what you say is correct then confine your comments to the ideas and scriptures I present and don't talk about ""ME"".

I will do my best, but please realise that as you are putting these idea's forward, a certain amount of personal interaction in regards to the topic is needed. This is a discussion board, not a forum for one to preach, the others to just listen. We discuss, we disagree, we throw idea's back and forth. The great hope is that through all this the truth will shine.

If you read what many say to me you will see that most only want to talk about me, to shot the messenger. And then they will sit back and accuse me of taking it too personal. Look at most all of the replies. They can't find any scriptures that say Jesus and the 12 rescinded the Law of Moses so they just attack me personally.

As I have said before, I believe the trouble here comes from a failure to communicate...not just you, but on both sides. There are no verses that tell us that Jesus rescinded the law, because He did not rescind, He fulfilled. That is the key word....it's interesting, I ordered some lego for my son online, and the invoice came through and said "order awaiting fulfilment". When the order is sent, it won't be rescinded, it will be finished and we will receive the thing that was paid for. Likewise Jesus didn't 'take back' or destroy the Law of Moses...He finished it and we all benefit from what He paid for. Those are the verses that you will find...that we have been trying to show you.

You said: "You say that Jesus did not come to minister to the Gentiles" --- No, I said the """scriptures say He did not come to the Gentiles""". In Jesus' own words He said He did not come to the Gentiles. There is a difference.

Did you notice that in my previous post I gave the scripture for where Jesus clearly gave the gospel message to a Samaritan woman? If Jesus said outright that He wasn't going to give the gospel message to Gentiles, and then He does...well, that implies that perhaps His words may have been misunderstood...contextually. Because we know that Christ does not lie. It could have meant that His goal...right now, was to true and show the Jews the truth...that before the world could receive the good news, that the Jews (or some of them!)needed to.
I don't know...all I'm saying is this, please consider all of scripture, because Jesus definitely included Gentiles in His ministry...be it preaching or healing, or even admiring their faith.

It should be seen that the Law of Moses has been put on hold until the time of the Gentiles has ended. When grace entered it was necessary to place the Law of Moses on hold. Law is not grace neither is grace law. The two are not compatible.

Yet modern theology teaches the message Jesus and the 12 preached to the Jews under the Law and applies it to the grace church. They put law into grace and leave us with nothing but confusion.
Acts 11:19
19 Now those who were scattered after the persecution that arose over Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to no one but the Jews only.
NKJV

I don't believe scripture ever says that the Law of Moses is on hold and will be reinstated. Romans 11 talk of God bringing the remnant of the Jews back to him, but it never says that He will do this through the Law. The implications off both Jesus' ministry and of Paul's is that anyone...at all, will only come to God the Father...no or in the future...through Christ.
And I'm afraid I still have to disagree with you. Theology teaches that in light of Christ's fulfilment of the Law that it no longer applies to anyone. I would know, as I'm currently studying theology. The nature of something that has been completed is that it's finished. Finished things do not need working on, going back to etc.
 

veteran

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And I'm afraid I still have to disagree with you. Theology teaches that in light of Christ's fulfilment of the Law that it no longer applies to anyone. I would know, as I'm currently studying theology. The nature of something that has been completed is that it's finished. Finished things do not need working on, going back to etc.

Those theologists you're listening to then, don't know what they're talking about...

Matt 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
(KJV)

How is it that part underlined in bold is disregarded by you, and apparently by them?

That "Till heaven and earth pass" is a HUGE condition our Lord Jesus gave for all the law to be fulfilled.

Tell me, just when did 'heaven and earth pass away'? How is it we are all still here in this world like God created it back in Genesis?

What is clear is that you yourself have been not heeding God's Word as written, but men's traditions loosely based on God's Holy Writ only.

And when people say things like the law no longer applies to anyone, that is to promote 'lawlessness'. God's Word is pretty clear what is to going to happen upon those who follow after lawlessness. I don't think you want to be in that lawless crowd Rach, simply I believe you also claim Christ Jesus as your Saviour.

 

Rach1370

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Those theologists you're listening to then, don't know what they're talking about...

Matt 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
(KJV)

How is it that part underlined in bold is disregarded by you, and apparently by them?

That "Till heaven and earth pass" is a HUGE condition our Lord Jesus gave for all the law to be fulfilled.

Tell me, just when did 'heaven and earth pass away'? How is it we are all still here in this world like God created it back in Genesis?

What is clear is that you yourself have been not heeding God's Word as written, but men's traditions loosely based on God's Holy Writ only.

And when people say things like the law no longer applies to anyone, that is to promote 'lawlessness'. God's Word is pretty clear what is to going to happen upon those who follow after lawlessness. I don't think you want to be in that lawless crowd Rach, simply I believe you also claim Christ Jesus as your Saviour.

You're missing the "Until all be fulfilled" part of that verse. It was fulfilled when Christ died on the cross. Certainly the world didn't pass away before that happened!

Here's the thing Veteran...it's way too easy for a Christian to be swayed by man's opinion of doctrine. I'm completely aware of this. So before I make up my mind on something, I always check scripture. I never just take anyone's say so on something. That includes the various say so's of people here...let's face it, there is many differing opinions on this board. I read, pray, check other parts of scripture and consider a couple of different opinions of man. I do not leap and I do not 'believe' something just because it suits my agenda...(in fact if it does suit my agenda...it's probably the wrong interpretation!!)

So despite you thinking I'm merrily tripping along the road to damnation, ignoring the teachings of my Lord and embracing those of people...I am not. Obviously you will think I am, as long as I disagree with you on certain topics...but when it really comes down to it, it's not your good opinion that I need is it? So please rest easy, brother...even disagreeing with you, I promise that I am doing my best to be faithful to what Jesus is asking of me and what scripture tells me.
 

veteran

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You're missing the "Until all be fulfilled" part of that verse. It was fulfilled when Christ died on the cross. Certainly the world didn't pass away before that happened!

Here's the thing Veteran...it's way too easy for a Christian to be swayed by man's opinion of doctrine. I'm completely aware of this. So before I make up my mind on something, I always check scripture. I never just take anyone's say so on something. That includes the various say so's of people here...let's face it, there is many differing opinions on this board. I read, pray, check other parts of scripture and consider a couple of different opinions of man. I do not leap and I do not 'believe' something just because it suits my agenda...(in fact if it does suit my agenda...it's probably the wrong interpretation!!)

So despite you thinking I'm merrily tripping along the road to damnation, ignoring the teachings of my Lord and embracing those of people...I am not. Obviously you will think I am, as long as I disagree with you on certain topics...but when it really comes down to it, it's not your good opinion that I need is it? So please rest easy, brother...even disagreeing with you, I promise that I am doing my best to be faithful to what Jesus is asking of me and what scripture tells me.

I've not missed anything in Christ's Own Words there. You are in denial.

8 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Not only that, but you need to go back and study English grammar again, for that "Till heaven and earth pass" is the condition that MUST be met.


 

jiggyfly

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You're missing the "Until all be fulfilled" part of that verse. It was fulfilled when Christ died on the cross. Certainly the world didn't pass away before that happened!

Here's the thing Veteran...it's way too easy for a Christian to be swayed by man's opinion of doctrine. I'm completely aware of this. So before I make up my mind on something, I always check scripture. I never just take anyone's say so on something. That includes the various say so's of people here...let's face it, there is many differing opinions on this board. I read, pray, check other parts of scripture and consider a couple of different opinions of man. I do not leap and I do not 'believe' something just because it suits my agenda...(in fact if it does suit my agenda...it's probably the wrong interpretation!!)

So despite you thinking I'm merrily tripping along the road to damnation, ignoring the teachings of my Lord and embracing those of people...I am not. Obviously you will think I am, as long as I disagree with you on certain topics...but when it really comes down to it, it's not your good opinion that I need is it? So please rest easy, brother...even disagreeing with you, I promise that I am doing my best to be faithful to what Jesus is asking of me and what scripture tells me.

I agree Rach, many do have difficulty understanding that the law (including the ten commandments) has been set aside because it was part of the old covenant that God made with Israel and was fulfilled by Christ. We are now under a new and better covenant in which we follow HolySpirit.

Here's another translation of Matt.5:17&18 I thought you might like.
17 Don't think that I am come to abolish the law or the prophets: I am not come to abolish, but to complete them.​
18 I assure you, heaven and earth may as well cease to be, as that one jot or one tittle of the law should fail of its completion.​
Matt 5:17-18 (MaceNT)

 

RichardBurger

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I will do my best, but please realise that as you are putting these idea's forward, a certain amount of personal interaction in regards to the topic is needed. This is a discussion board, not a forum for one to preach, the others to just listen. We discuss, we disagree, we throw idea's back and forth. The great hope is that through all this the truth will shine.



As I have said before, I believe the trouble here comes from a failure to communicate...not just you, but on both sides. There are no verses that tell us that Jesus rescinded the law, because He did not rescind, He fulfilled. That is the key word....it's interesting, I ordered some lego for my son online, and the invoice came through and said "order awaiting fulfilment". When the order is sent, it won't be rescinded, it will be finished and we will receive the thing that was paid for. Likewise Jesus didn't 'take back' or destroy the Law of Moses...He finished it and we all benefit from what He paid for. Those are the verses that you will find...that we have been trying to show you.



Did you notice that in my previous post I gave the scripture for where Jesus clearly gave the gospel message to a Samaritan woman? If Jesus said outright that He wasn't going to give the gospel message to Gentiles, and then He does...well, that implies that perhaps His words may have been misunderstood...contextually. Because we know that Christ does not lie. It could have meant that His goal...right now, was to true and show the Jews the truth...that before the world could receive the good news, that the Jews (or some of them!)needed to.
I don't know...all I'm saying is this, please consider all of scripture, because Jesus definitely included Gentiles in His ministry...be it preaching or healing, or even admiring their faith.



I don't believe scripture ever says that the Law of Moses is on hold and will be reinstated. Romans 11 talk of God bringing the remnant of the Jews back to him, but it never says that He will do this through the Law. The implications off both Jesus' ministry and of Paul's is that anyone...at all, will only come to God the Father...no or in the future...through Christ.
And I'm afraid I still have to disagree with you. Theology teaches that in light of Christ's fulfilment of the Law that it no longer applies to anyone. I would know, as I'm currently studying theology. The nature of something that has been completed is that it's finished. Finished things do not need working on, going back to etc.

Jesus came to the lost sheep of Israel (Jews). He said so. No where has anyone posted scriptures where He said we are no longer under the Law of Moses. Did He tell the Samaritan woman she was no longer under the Law of Moses? I think not.

Would Jesus do all that He said to the Samaritan woman when He sets up the Jewish kingdom on this earth? I think so.
 

Rach1370

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I've not missed anything in Christ's Own Words there. You are in denial.

8 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Not only that, but you need to go back and study English grammar again, for that "Till heaven and earth pass" is the condition that MUST be met.

I could just as easily say that you are in denial...especially if you want to get into the finger pointing.
I think that the OT has always and will always be important and invaluable for teaching and wisdom. It is scripture...and all of that is God breathed and profitable.
But you cannot ignore that right before the above verse Jesus said He had come to fulfil the Law, then two verses down He repeats that phrase...'til all be fulfilled. It is fact that when Jesus died on the cross in sacrifice for the worlds sins, that He fulfilled a big part of the OT laws. So while we still look and learn from the OT, we must do so with the firm knowledge of Christ's achievements in mind.
If you choose not to do that, it is your choice, but you are missing much.


Jesus came to the lost sheep of Israel (Jews). He said so. No where has anyone posted scriptures where He said we are no longer under the Law of Moses. Did He tell the Samaritan woman she was no longer under the Law of Moses? I think not.

Would Jesus do all that He said to the Samaritan woman when He sets up the Jewish kingdom on this earth? I think so.

Ok. Here is me stepping away from this conversation. I have no idea if you are deliberately ignoring my point, or if you are just not getting it. Either way there is zero point me repeating myself for what would be the 20th time. So I won't. But I am perhaps getting the feeling that as a kid you were one of those who did the "I know you are, but what am I?" kind of arguments. Oh well, enjoy your assumptions Richard...but I'll happily go on my way believing what I do...ta.
 

aspen

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Ok. Here is me stepping away from this conversation. I have no idea if you are deliberately ignoring my point, or if you are just not getting it. Either way there is zero point me repeating myself for what would be the 20th time. So I won't. But I am perhaps getting the feeling that as a kid you were one of those who did the "I know you are, but what am I?" kind of arguments. Oh well, enjoy your assumptions Richard...but I'll happily go on my way believing what I do...ta.

I plan to follow your example in future dead end conversations, Rach

Thanks.
 

veteran

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I could just as easily say that you are in denial...especially if you want to get into the finger pointing.
I think that the OT has always and will always be important and invaluable for teaching and wisdom. It is scripture...and all of that is God breathed and profitable.
But you cannot ignore that right before the above verse Jesus said He had come to fulfil the Law, then two verses down He repeats that phrase...'til all be fulfilled. It is fact that when Jesus died on the cross in sacrifice for the worlds sins, that He fulfilled a big part of the OT laws. So while we still look and learn from the OT, we must do so with the firm knowledge of Christ's achievements in mind.
If you choose not to do that, it is your choice, but you are missing much.


Matt 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
(KJV)

The previous verse still does not negate that phrase "Till heaven and earth pass". The 18th verse He is simply going into more detail, just as He also did further in the verses after that one too, with defining the spirit of the law in placing an even greater spiritual discipline upon the believer, instead of just preaching the letter of law like the Pharisees were doing.


Matt 5:19-22
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
(KJV)

Letter of the law: whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment.
Spirit of the law: whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.

Does that sound like Jesus did away with the law? Nope. He fulfilled it alright, but not by doing away with its spirit, which requires more discipline than following the letter of the law. And until Heaven and earth pass, that's the way it is, even now.

 

lawrance

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I've not missed anything in Christ's Own Words there. You are in denial.

8 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Not only that, but you need to go back and study English grammar again, for that "Till heaven and earth pass" is the condition that MUST be met.




I agree with veteran.
Like how can someone say that when Christ accomplished it, that it was the end, as it is saying till heaven has pass ? is heaven gone is the earth gone ?
 

veteran

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A revelation about God's law today...


Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
(KJV)

Ps 60:7
7 Gilead is Mine, and Manasseh is Mine; Ephraim also is the strength of Mine head; Judah is My lawgiver;
(KJV)



God gave care of His law to the tribe of Judah. And that is where its care will remain all the way up to the time of Christ's return (Shiloh is put for our Lord Jesus there).

Did our Lord Jesus teach that prophecy is no more when He said not one jot or tittle from the law will pass until all is fulfilled? Nope.

Is that Gen.49:10 prophecy not to be heeded, just because it was given all the way back in Genesis? God forbid. If it were not still in place today it would make God a liar.

So what's the difference with us and The New Covenant then? Judah is heavily within the law structure and justice systems of the western Christian nations. God is not going to let it slip from their hand either, not until Christ returns.

Whether we as Christians say, "The law is dead to us, or we are dead to the law", it's really the same idea, because it means walking by the Spirit which is not against God's laws (Gal.5). It definitely does not mean the law is dead in the absolute sense though, not for everyone, because that would be to directly contradict God's promise to Judah there in Genesis 49:10 about the law remaining under their care as a 'lawgiver'. Christ immediately fulfilled the handwriting of ordinances in the law, as written, and that's all. The rest still exists, and is under Judah's care, and that is for our benefit as a Christian people too.

This is why I keep trying get my Christian brethren to understand that God's laws exist to protect His people, both us Christians and society in general, and to remove it is to lose that protection and let evil reign over us instead. This is why the "crept in unawares", the "wolves in sheep's clothing", the "hireling" that God did not call, are constantly preaching falseness about God's laws, saying that it has all been done away with. It's in hopes that we will be influenced by secularist opinions and the world in developing new laws to replace God's laws. And when I say secularist opinion and the world, that means the people that know not God.



 

Rach1370

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Letter of the law: whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment.
Spirit of the law: whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.

Does that sound like Jesus did away with the law? Nope. He fulfilled it alright, but not by doing away with its spirit, which requires more discipline than following the letter of the law. And until Heaven and earth pass, that's the way it is, even now.

Alright...how are you doing at that?? Honestly...how are you going at following the spirit of the law?

As you say, Jesus says:

[20] For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
(Matthew 5:20 ESV)


The Pharisees followed the letter, you say we must follow the spirit, which is much harder than the letter. Jesus tells us that if we are 'following our own righteousness into heaven' it will need to be much more than what the Pharisees achieved by their unloving, unmoving, starchy following of the letter. Are you saying that you're on top of that? That you have the spirit down, that you never think against a brother...even here, where disagreements are rife??

Here's the deal, the big revelation of Christ....we are not capable of following the spirit to such an extent that will see us in heaven. The more we try, the more we end up doing the Pharisee thing, contemplating on the letter rather than the spirit...it's a vicious circle.
Jesus came to save us. He died for us so that we do not need to fight the endless circle of the law. I will always strive to live a life Christ would approve of, but I do it out of thanks, of rejoicing, of worship...not to 'follow the law'. Jesus said the most important thing is love; love of God, love of others.
In fact Jesus tells us that the law is all wrapped up in those two big ideas...loving God and loving others. One might even say that those two ARE the spirit of the law.

[36] “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” [37] And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. [38] This is the great and first commandment. [39] And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. [40] On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
(Matthew 22:36-40 ESV)


So trust in the law..be it letter or 'spirit'...but I will trust in Jesus. I will follow Him, follow what He says is important. Quite frankly I think both He and the other disciples spend too much time warning against those who harp on about the law....not the law itself, but what man makes of it...to worry about anything other than what Jesus teaches.
 

veteran

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Alright...how are you doing at that?? Honestly...how are you going at following the spirit of the law?

As you say, Jesus says:

[20] For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
(Matthew 5:20 ESV)


The Pharisees followed the letter, you say we must follow the spirit, which is much harder than the letter. Jesus tells us that if we are 'following our own righteousness into heaven' it will need to be much more than what the Pharisees achieved by their unloving, unmoving, starchy following of the letter. Are you saying that you're on top of that? That you have the spirit down, that you never think against a brother...even here, where disagreements are rife??

You still don't understand do you? Do you not know that after Christ's return, God's commandments and statutes is exactly what we will be following? Everyone will, not just those of Christ's elect that reign with Him. You know what? It'll be easier to do in that time when in our resurrected bodies. But for now, we are to strive... to be perfect, even though we never can be during this present world.

And you obviously don't know me at all, as to how I think or feel about others. I love all... peoples. I just don't always love what people do, myself included. Arguments and debates is not a reason to hate one's brother or sister. Even family have arguments, it doesn't mean they hate each other.



Here's the deal, the big revelation of Christ....we are not capable of following the spirit to such an extent that will see us in heaven. The more we try, the more we end up doing the Pharisee thing, contemplating on the letter rather than the spirit...it's a vicious circle.
Jesus came to save us. He died for us so that we do not need to fight the endless circle of the law. I will always strive to live a life Christ would approve of, but I do it out of thanks, of rejoicing, of worship...not to 'follow the law'. Jesus said the most important thing is love; love of God, love of others.
In fact Jesus tells us that the law is all wrapped up in those two big ideas...loving God and loving others. One might even say that those two ARE the spirit of the law.

I well know that we can have no righteousness that can save us. We are only saved by God's unmerited favor (grace) through His Son, period. But you see, you've been trained that when someone merely mentions 'the law', you think it means someone is trying to supplant it with Christ's Salvation by Faith.

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
(KJV)

Do you think Apostle Paul was talking only about the New Testament Books with that? I assure you, he was not.



[36] “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” [37] And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. [38] This is the great and first commandment. [39] And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. [40] On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
(Matthew 22:36-40 ESV)
So trust in the law..be it letter or 'spirit'...but I will trust in Jesus. I will follow Him, follow what He says is important. Quite frankly I think both He and the other disciples spend too much time warning against those who harp on about the law....not the law itself, but what man makes of it...to worry about anything other than what Jesus teaches.

Try to make up your own Salvation plan, but it won't work. If you follow Jesus, then why don't you listen to Him, for what I testified to is what He was teaching. You may think to escape God's laws today, but you cannot. Go out and steal something and see if God's laws are no more in effect. Try it if you don't believe me.

And if you're going to quote our Lord Jesus there, it might help you if you go back into the Old Testament and read where He was quoting that from God's commandments.