"Salvation" is the gift of Eternal Life - it's FOREVER.

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theefaith

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Have you not read:

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Yes but that refers to redemption not justification

Redemption:
The redemption was accomplished by Christ with no participation on our part!

Justification:
then when we believe in him and his redemption we are justified in that faith and baptism!

Sanctification:
then we are in Christ and his church by grace faith and baptism we practice good works (prayer, alms, fasting, virtues charity, other sacraments etc.

Salvation:
then when we are faithful to Christ and in his grace at death enter salvation!

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) zealous of good works. (Sanctification)
 

theefaith

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Have you not read:

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

1 cor 13:2 “all faith” without charity avails nothing!


Patience Implies suffering!

In order to bear fruit we must deny ourself, suffer, and die!

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Jn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Matthew 24:42
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Verses of Christian suffering:

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Romans 5:4
And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

2 Tim 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

James 1:2-8
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

1 Peter 2:20
For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
 

ScottA

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month are required for salvation
Mk 16:18 acts 2:38 acts 8:36-38 1 pet 3:20

A sacrament is an outward efficacious sign instituted by Christ to give grace. Jesus Christ himself is the sacrament, as he gave his life to save mankind. His humanity is the outward sign or the instrument of his Divinity. It is through his humanity that the life of the Trinity comes to us as grace through the sacraments. It is Jesus Christ alone who mediates the sacraments to allow grace to flow to mankind.

A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!

The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation

Better covenant on better promises

2 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Life of supernatural grace merited by Christ in His passion and death!

An oath to sacramental life in the new covenant in union with the mediator and communion with God, and the saints!

Promise of the Father acts 2:23-39
Promise is an oath and an oath is a sacrament! This promise of the sacrament of baptism refers to ez. 36:25-27

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
I have stated the truth for you in the simplest of terms, but your religion betrays you. Loose it, or be "cut in pieces." Matthew 24:51
 

ScottA

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acts 22:16

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
As I said...it is only a vision of what occurs in the Spirit, which is done to carry the gospel to the ends of the earth, to those who need the visual.

So, yes, do it. But understand just where the power lies--which is not in the water, but in the Spirit. God is spirit.
 

ScottA

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Yes but that refers to redemption not justification

Redemption:
The redemption was accomplished by Christ with no participation on our part!

Justification:
then when we believe in him and his redemption we are justified in that faith and baptism!

Sanctification:
then we are in Christ and his church by grace faith and baptism we practice good works (prayer, alms, fasting, virtues charity, other sacraments etc.

Salvation:
then when we are faithful to Christ and in his grace at death enter salvation!

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) zealous of good works. (Sanctification)
No...other than receiving it as a free gift, none of anything that is done is done of our "own doing."
 

theefaith

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I have stated the truth for you in the simplest of terms, but your religion betrays you. Loose it, or be "cut in pieces." Matthew 24:51

sorry spell check purgatory
Month should be both

cut in pieces?

I thought it was the true Christians who were cut to pieces by the lions in the coliseum?
 

ScottA

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1 cor 13:2 “all faith” without charity avails nothing!


Patience Implies suffering!

In order to bear fruit we must deny ourself, suffer, and die!

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Jn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Matthew 24:42
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Verses of Christian suffering:

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Romans 5:4
And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

2 Tim 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

James 1:2-8
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

1 Peter 2:20
For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
"Charity" refers only to the "commission" of spreading the gospel to the ends of the earth. Otherwise, "You can do nothing."
 

theefaith

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You and your fathers have made more of things than you were given.

Truth must be revealed by God, and in its fullness in the sacred deposit of faith by Christ to his church! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 and must be taught by the church, or proposed for our belief by the apostles!
Matt 28:19-20 Lk 1:4 Jn 20:21 acts 8:31 Rom 1:5 col 2:7 1 Tim 3:15
matt 18:17

Christ and His church are one! acts 9:4 Acts 5:32 Jn 15:1-5

truth is immutable
The church founded by Christ on Peter is ir-reformable

the church has the duty to safeguard the faith from all error and cannot take away or add to it must remain as it was revealed by Christ
 

ScottA

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cut in pieces?

I thought it was the true Christians who were cut to pieces by the lions in the coliseum?
No...Jesus was speaking of the evil servants, telling them they would be cut out of their spiritual blessing in this world for limiting His commission to flesh and blood.
 

theefaith

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As I said...it is only a vision of what occurs in the Spirit, which is done to carry the gospel to the ends of the earth, to those who need the visual.

So, yes, do it. But understand just where the power lies--which is not in the water, but in the Spirit. God is spirit.

vision visual outward sign ok
Same to me
But without the outward sign the inward sacrament does not take place and would be invalid

Faith alone apart from the sacraments
Questions

where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?

1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
 

ScottA

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Truth must be revealed by God, and in its fullness in the sacred deposit of faith by Christ to his church! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 and must be taught by the church, or proposed for our belief by the apostles!
Matt 28:19-20 Lk 1:4 Jn 20:21 acts 8:31 Rom 1:5 col 2:7 1 Tim 3:15
matt 18:17

Christ and His church are one! acts 9:4 Acts 5:32 Jn 15:1-5

truth is immutable
The church founded by Christ on Peter is ir-reformable

the church has the duty to safeguard the faith from all error and cannot take away or add to it must remain as it was revealed by Christ
You do not understand what you are saying.

"His church" is not one of flesh and blood--not of this world. But in everything that you have named, you refer to how it as in the world. This is the error from the beginning.
 

Degas

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Yes, there are many ways you can ho hum your way around thinking about actually giving your life to God, but if and when you totally do surrender your life to God and give it to Him, it is finished: You are forever "in God" and He in you--and He is forever.
Of course! Now many Christians seem to be sure they have given their life to God yet they haven't. As a matter of fact, Jesus warned us: "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’" (Matthew 7:21-23)

So, yes, it is a daily labor to keep the old flesh under subordination of the spirit of God. But it is in Him that we have the strength to do so.
No, that's the thing, it is not a daily labor, even if only by your very (pretty good) explanation: "You are forever "in God" and He in you". When we do not act as individuals but it is God who acts through us, how could we strive to, to use your own words "keep the old flesh under subordination"?
 

ScottA

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vision visual outward sign ok
Same to me
But without the outward sign the inward sacrament does not take place and would be invalid
No. Nothing that is bound in heaven, need be first bound on earth. You have it backwards...and therefore, wrong.

where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?
“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matthew 3:11
 

ScottA

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No, that's the thing, it is not a daily labor, even if only by your very (pretty good) explanation: "You are forever "in God" and He in you". When we do not act as individuals but it is God who acts through us, how could we strive to, to use your own words "keep the old flesh under subordination"?
That is correct. I see my grace to those who labor was not needed technically with you--Yes, it is God, not the individual. But some are not ready to hear that we become One, therefore I spoke as I did. Thank you.
 

theefaith

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No...other than receiving it as a free gift, none of anything that is done is done of our "own doing."

when before justification or after

and not works alone!


Redemption:
The redemption was accomplished by Christ with no participation on our part!

Justification:
then when we believe in him and his redemption we are justified in that faith and baptism!

Sanctification:
then we are in Christ and his church by grace faith and baptism we practice good works (prayer, alms, fasting, virtues charity, other sacraments etc.

Salvation:
then when we are faithful to Christ and in his grace at death enter salvation!

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Matt 24:13 he who endured to the end (salvation)
 

theefaith

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"Charity" refers only to the "commission" of spreading the gospel to the ends of the earth. Otherwise, "You can do nothing."

Nothing we can do?
We don’t have to believe?
Continue believing until death?

Religion says Do:
Christianity says done:

There is nothing we can do???


Does the will of God:
Those who hear the Word of God and do it!
Ez 36:25-27
Matt 7:21
Matt 12:50
Mk 3:35
Lk 8:21
Lk 11:28
Jn 5:30
Jn7:17
Rom 12:2
Rev 17:7
Doer of the word
James 1:22-23
Keep my commandments:
Matt 28:20
Jn 14:21
Things we must do:
Matt 5:8
Jn 15:1-5
Lk 1:4
Acts 2:38
Must repent and do penance
Matt 3:2
Matt 3:8
Matt 4:17
Matt 9:13
Matt 16:24
Acts 2:38
Acts 3:19
Must believe and continue in a state of believing:
Jn3:16
Endure to the end:
Matt 24:13
Mark 13:13
Rev 2:26
Heb 3:14
Heb 6:11
Romans 11:22
Colossians 1:21-23
Hebrews 12:22-25
Hebrews 6:4
Hebrews 10:23-29, 35-39
Hebrews 3:4-6
1 John 2:24-25
2 John 8-9
Galatians 5:2-4
2 Timothy 2:11-13
 

theefaith

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No...Jesus was speaking of the evil servants, telling them they would be cut out of their spiritual blessing in this world for limiting His commission to flesh and blood.

Oh ok

what’s his commission?
 

ScottA

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when before justification or after

and not works alone!


Redemption:
The redemption was accomplished by Christ with no participation on our part!

Justification:
then when we believe in him and his redemption we are justified in that faith and baptism!

Sanctification:
then we are in Christ and his church by grace faith and baptism we practice good works (prayer, alms, fasting, virtues charity, other sacraments etc.

Salvation:
then when we are faithful to Christ and in his grace at death enter salvation!

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Matt 24:13 he who endured to the end (salvation)
You might (should) drop the religious jargon and definitions off the discussion...that is your fathers religion getting in the way. We would do better to just talk Bible, in concise scriptural terms.

Okay...there is no before or after in that regard, there is only a before and after God drawing us and us receiving His gift of salvation. Remember, these are matters of God whom is the same yesterday, today, and forever--no before or after, no slicing and dicing necessary or even appropriate. I am speaking plainly.
 

ScottA

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Nothing we can do?
We don’t have to believe?
Continue believing until death?

Religion says Do:
Christianity says done:

There is nothing we can do???


Does the will of God:
Those who hear the Word of God and do it!
Ez 36:25-27
Matt 7:21
Matt 12:50
Mk 3:35
Lk 8:21
Lk 11:28
Jn 5:30
Jn7:17
Rom 12:2
Rev 17:7
Doer of the word
James 1:22-23
Keep my commandments:
Matt 28:20
Jn 14:21
Things we must do:
Matt 5:8
Jn 15:1-5
Lk 1:4
Acts 2:38
Must repent and do penance
Matt 3:2
Matt 3:8
Matt 4:17
Matt 9:13
Matt 16:24
Acts 2:38
Acts 3:19
Must believe and continue in a state of believing:
Jn3:16
Endure to the end:
Matt 24:13
Mark 13:13
Rev 2:26
Heb 3:14
Heb 6:11
Romans 11:22
Colossians 1:21-23
Hebrews 12:22-25
Hebrews 6:4
Hebrews 10:23-29, 35-39
Hebrews 3:4-6
1 John 2:24-25
2 John 8-9
Galatians 5:2-4
2 Timothy 2:11-13
Believe, yes...which is the basis of faith. But neither are actions or works, they are what is in the heart. The scriptures (James) then say that having belief and faith (inwardly) in our hearts, if given the opportunity, it will indeed result in good works. This is confirmed of salvation, by Jesus saying, "the kingdom of God is within you." But that does not speak of when or how we are saved, nor is it required, but it speaks rather of the result of salvation for "those who are alive and remain" in the world.
 

theefaith

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Do I need faith if I have eyes?

All that’s required is to look for Him? Right

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Heb 9:28
You do not understand what you are saying.

"His church" is not one of flesh and blood--not of this world. But in everything that you have named, you refer to how it as in the world. This is the error from the beginning.

Not of this world but it is in this world