What are God's laws now for?

tim_from_pa · Jul 26, 2011

RichardBurger said:
Well, as I see it, words can kill, and in this world today, which worships the beauty of men and women, most commit adultry in their minds.

But what I see in Paul's writtings, is that we are dead to the Law and it can no longer condemn us, none of it. The only thing that condemns today is to not believe God, to not believe the shed blood of Jesus Christ paid for all our sins, past, present, and future.

Fundamentally, I don't disagree with you. The words of the Law can kill, because we are sinful by nature, which is the schoolmaster part. But with God's Spirit, I can emulate the spirit of the law. I trust you can, too. Right?

Eccl.12:13 · Jul 26, 2011

tim_from_pa said:
Fundamentally, I don't disagree with you. The words of the Law can kill, because we are sinful by nature, which is the schoolmaster part. But with God's Spirit, I can emulate the spirit of the law. I trust you can, too. Right?

Groundzero · Jul 26, 2011

tim_from_pa said:
The same as the Old Covenant. They are God's standard of righteousness. The Law has not been done away with, but rather the curse of the Law.

The covenants are not based on what the Law says, per se, but one's relationship with God judging by those standards.

In the Old Covenant, the idea was "Do this and you shall live". Of course nobody could and everyone died (and thus the Law was that schoolmaster to show our fallen nature)

In the New Covenant, it's "Christ became a curse for us" and died, but Christ had the righteousness of God. Christ could do it, and thus he lived. That's why he rose again. We thus die to our old nature and put on Christ.

So, the Old v.s. the New is not about the standards, which have not changed one jot or tittle. The Old v.s. the New asks the question "Whose righteousness? Yours or Christ's?"

To extrapolate a tad, but not get into excessive detail, I believe the Law had a moral and ceremonial aspect to it. I am talking about the moral law being in effect. The ceremonial was "play acting" so-to-speak to prophecy the reality in Christ and his atoning work. It was a physical object lesson and testimony for the future. It did not have a sin or moral aspect to it other than one had to keep that until Christ fulfilled them. But the moral "thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not commit adultery", etc is still valid.

Amen. On that note, Jesus grouped the Law into two groups:

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

All the Law is about loving God with all your effort, and loving your neighbour as yourself.

aspen · Jul 26, 2011

Why do some people act like the Law is poisonous? Actually, the Law is not a bad thing, in and of it's self; it is simply incomplete without love and mercy and Christ's sacrifice. The Law is able to be followed when we learn to love perfectly, after the process of sanctification.

goodshepard55 · Jul 26, 2011

Biblescribe..did not know you were an Aussie or lived in Aussieland .....Hmmm...interesting....or are you American living in Aussieland?.....Dietary laws were for Israel or the Jewish people, but I do have to admit, once my family started back on non-processed food and let our bodies be the processing machine that the Lord designed, our health has changed

Duckybill · Jul 27, 2011

Groundzero said:
I wouldn't call it man-made. God put the dietary commands for the Israelites good. Something we must remember is that we live in a different dispensation to the Law. I don't have time atm to explain as I have to go to bed. I will quickly say, however, that there are a few basic doctrines that the Scriptures teach that Christians should adhere to. Other than that, we have alot more freedom than what the Jews had, because the Messiah has come and all those types and shadows from the days of Moses have been fulfilled.

I was referring to the 'for health reasons' part as being "man-made" doctrine. The only 'proof' I've seen are simply opinions. The dietary commands were simply to be obeyed, as were the commands to wear certain clothing. If someone has Scripture to prove that the dietary commands were for health reasons then please tell us. Otherwise it is simply opinion.

Duckybill · Jul 27, 2011

veteran said:
Peter declared his vision of the blanket of animals to the believing Jews in Acts 11 also, revealing that he understood God's Message was about Gentiles, not that unclean meats were made OK to eat.

7 And I heard a voice saying to me, ‘Rise, Peter; kill and eat.’

I doubt that God was telling Peter to kill and eat Gentiles.

Duckybill · Jul 27, 2011

tim_from_pa said:
The same as the Old Covenant. They are God's standard of righteousness. The Law has not been done away with, but rather the curse of the Law.

Gal 3:10 KJV

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse:

So, the Old v.s. the New is not about the standards, which have not changed one jot or tittle.

Ex 31 ESV

15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.

veteran · Jul 27, 2011

Groundzero said:
Just thought of these Scriptures:

1Co 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

1Co 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
1Co 6:13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

And those Scriptures from Paul are very correct. Christ's Salvation is not to our 'flesh', it's to our soul and spirit in the resurrection to eternal life.

What we eat is NOT a Salvation issue per The New Covenant. It is only a health issue dealing with the flesh bodies we live in today.

Shep said:
Dietary laws were for Israel or the Jewish people, but I do have to admit, once my family started back on non-processed food and let our bodies be the processing machine that the Lord designed, our health has changed

And that's really my whole point about God's health laws. It's about how God created our flesh bodies to function, not ideas about following God's health laws for Salvation purposes.

Duckybill said:
7 And I heard a voice saying to me, ‘Rise, Peter; kill and eat.’

I doubt that God was telling Peter to kill and eat Gentiles.

All one need do is keep reading in that Acts 10 chapter...

Acts 10:14-15
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, "What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common."
(KJV)

Acts 10:28
28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
(KJV)

The vision of unclean animals God showed Peter was an analogy about the Gentiles.

bigdummy · Jul 27, 2011

veteran said:
What relationship do God's laws have under the New Covenant?

Off hand I can't think of any LAWS that God through Christ has given to those of us who live in the age of Grace and no longer under the law but I do believe
He has given us some powerful requests such as those He spoke in the last two verses of Mat.28 and in the words of Mat.5, 3-10....God Bless...Ray

tim_from_pa · Jul 27, 2011

Duckybill said:
Gal 3:10 KJV

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse:

Ex 31 ESV

15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.

Which only goes to show to me that you totally missed my point. Nevertheless, the standards of the Law apply yet.

Duckybill said:
I was referring to the 'for health reasons' part as being "man-made" doctrine. The only 'proof' I've seen are simply opinions. The dietary commands were simply to be obeyed, as were the commands to wear certain clothing. If someone has Scripture to prove that the dietary commands were for health reasons then please tell us. Otherwise it is simply opinion.

Eating in the scripture has its counterpart in illustrating spiritual nourishment. Just as we watch the spiritual diet and what we feed in, it stands to reason that what the Lord told us to eat has a physical counterpart. I consider dietary laws as ceremonial and won't make a salvation issue out of it, but it just so happens that the Kosher animals are healthier. So, before you get all defensive about it, I'm not saying what to eat. Personally, I think the cholesterol, salt, high fat and other "watch your diet" things are scams and an excuse to sell worthless meds. So, I don't really restrict myself (not that Kosher is overly restrictive anyway), but I do make sure my diet has adequate amounts of good food.

Groundzero · Jul 27, 2011

If we are wondering whether it's okay to eat unclean animals or not, I came across this Scripture while reading the Bible last night. I think this should settle once and for all what is ok to eat.

1Ti 4:1-5 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

lawrance · Jul 28, 2011

Groundzero said:
Hey! Let's hear it! Another Aussie! lol. You obviously understand a little about Aussie politics. I wouldn't rip of Tony Abbot too much. He does try hard and he certainly is not an amoral person like Gillard. You can't believe everything the media says. Most of it is one-sided.

Yes by coalition i meant the Labor & Green's coalition seen as they are now a coalition and when you look into it you will find they were just something spun up by the left wing of the Labor partys Communist. Our PM Gillard is a self confessed Como but by mooving foorward as she says ? now that communism has evolved they don't call it that now.

veteran · Jul 28, 2011

bigdummy said:
Off hand I can't think of any LAWS that God through Christ has given to those of us who live in the age of Grace and no longer under the law but I do believe
He has given us some powerful requests such as those He spoke in the last two verses of Mat.28 and in the words of Mat.5, 3-10....God Bless...Ray

This is why I raised the question. It's pretty obvious that many of our Churches today have been so busy preaching the idea of God's grace through His Son, that they have forgotten to teach what the portions of God's laws that remain are about. Apostle Paul did not forget to teach it...

1 Tim 1:8-11
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
(KJV)

The main purpose for God's laws per the New Covenant is to chastise the unrighteous and rebellious. Many of God's laws directly from The Bible were instituted within the justice systems of the western Christian nations.

Even God's people must have a law to govern, and be governed by. We can either have man's secular humanist law system which judges unfairly, or we can have a law that our Heavenly Father established that nothing else can compare to.

This is why the unholy and profane do not like a law system from God because the rebellious do not want to bow to Him and His ways. As long as this present world exists, man will continue to try and establish his own sense of law and order instead of heeding God's. It's why there is so much evil and lawlessness rampant in the streets, because of man trying to supplant God's sense of law and order.

Our Lord Jesus did not mean for His people to just lay down and let the lawless run over us either. This is why Jesus even told His disciples to go buy a sword whoever didn't have one (Luke 22). Someone slapping you on the cheek for preaching The Gospel is a lot different than a murderer coming up to you with the intent to kill. God's people have the right to defend theirselves, their homes and family, and their nation at war if needs be. It is the enemies of Christ that constantly teach pacifist dogma and disarmament.

veteran · Jul 28, 2011

Groundzero said:
If we are wondering whether it's okay to eat unclean animals or not, I came across this Scripture while reading the Bible last night. I think this should settle once and for all what is ok to eat.

1Ti 4:1-5 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

I think we've already been there with that Scripture. Notice Paul declared there just 'which' meats he was talking about, meats "which God hath created to be received". That's about a very specific list of clean meats per God's Word, not unclean meats that He said not to eat.

So, if we believe Paul meant literally all meats, "if it be received with thanksgiving", then why are the unclean meats still making brethren unhealthy, even after giving The LORD thanks?

Is it because of not having enough Faith that it won't harm us, or maybe that we don't have enough of The Holy Spirit to cleanse unhealthy foods? That's the kind of thinking some brethren are depending on when they eat unhealthy foods, thinking that by some miracle God will sterilize it for them if they only give thanks for it.

tim_from_pa · Jul 28, 2011

Groundzero said:
If we are wondering whether it's okay to eat unclean animals or not, I came across this Scripture while reading the Bible last night. I think this should settle once and for all what is ok to eat.

1Ti 4:1-5 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

I agree, and it's verses like this (along with the verse that Paul mentioned that "one believes he may eat all things, another only herbs") that allows me to believe all things may be eaten.

While I agree that Kosher is not mandatory as that was part of the ceremonial Law signifying spiritual food and fellowship in physical manifestation, I just want to throw a thought at you for those Christian sects that do believe in Kosher and believe we must keep them. The clue is in the latter half about herbs. What the "Kosherists" are going to argue is that this verse you quoted are directed at those who would be only vegetarian and regard ALL meat as bad, whereas Paul was saying that "meat" (ie Kosher) is not to be abstained from. I don't think that's what he meant, but that's how some may interpret it. Just for a heads up.

Now, when I say that the standards of the Law are in effect yet, one must realize and understand that I mean that with the Spirit one will emulate the spirit of the Law. Let's take the 10 commandments. Jesus said that one could wrap it up with two simple ideas. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind, and likewise your neighbor as yourself. If someone truly loves God, they will not have other Gods before Him, take His name in vain, etc. Likewise I doubt one that loves his neighbor is going to kill him, steal from him or sleep with his wife. And the Sabbath, although technically still on Saturday is compared in the NT to the rest of faith (in Christ). The spirit of the Sabbath is to rest in him, otherwise those who do not will be "stoned" just as in the OT warning. They will perish. This is how Paul said that one man esteems one day above another (he is weaker in the faith and needs a physical day to worship extra on, but that's OK since he's still doing it in faith), and another esteems all days alike (i.e. every day is a Sabbath so each day is hallowed) because it's to the Lord. So, if one is resting, they are not breaking the Sabbath regardless if he does it every day because it can be argued that he's also resting on the physical Sabbath.

These are examples as to how the "law is in effect yet" and "the standards still apply" like I've been saying, and yet it is now done in the Spirit.

Groundzero · Jul 29, 2011

veteran said:
I think we've already been there with that Scripture. Notice Paul declared there just 'which' meats he was talking about, meats "which God hath created to be received". That's about a very specific list of clean meats per God's Word, not unclean meats that He said not to eat.

So, if we believe Paul meant literally all meats, "if it be received with thanksgiving", then why are the unclean meats still making brethren unhealthy, even after giving The LORD thanks?

Is it because of not having enough Faith that it won't harm us, or maybe that we don't have enough of The Holy Spirit to cleanse unhealthy foods? That's the kind of thinking some brethren are depending on when they eat unhealthy foods, thinking that by some miracle God will sterilize it for them if they only give thanks for it.

I don't think that verse is saying that all food is good for us, but it does say that we should NOT be FORBIDDING to eat meat. It's up to the individual what they want to eat and whether they want to look after their body. Health has to do with alot of things. You can eat healthy, but if you don't exercise, you will never be that fit. Interestingly, the scripture says that bodily exercise profits little (1Ti_4:8) compared to godliness! I'm going to assume that having good health (by that, I mean maintaining it) is not the same as godliness! It's up to you whether you want to eat healthy or not and the circumstances.

veteran · Jul 29, 2011

Groundzero said:
I don't think that verse is saying that all food is good for us, but it does say that we should NOT be FORBIDDING to eat meat. It's up to the individual what they want to eat and whether they want to look after their body. Health has to do with alot of things. You can eat healthy, but if you don't exercise, you will never be that fit. Interestingly, the scripture says that bodily exercise profits little (1Ti_4:8) compared to godliness! I'm going to assume that having good health (by that, I mean maintaining it) is not the same as godliness! It's up to you whether you want to eat healthy or not and the circumstances.

Since when was these posts an argument over whether we should or should not eat meats? Sounds like you're leaving the original argument only to start up something else that I have never denied from that Scripture.

Very true, it's up to each individual believer what they put in their bodies. But is not drunkenness a sin per our Lord?

The heart of the matter is that what we eat is not a Salvation issue. It's a health issue. And we do have some responsibility in that, otherwise drunkenness would not be a sin.

Groundzero · Jul 30, 2011

veteran said:
Since when was these posts an argument over whether we should or should not eat meats? Sounds like you're leaving the original argument only to start up something else that I have never denied from that Scripture.

Very true, it's up to each individual believer what they put in their bodies. But is not drunkenness a sin per our Lord?

The heart of the matter is that what we eat is not a Salvation issue. It's a health issue. And we do have some responsibility in that, otherwise drunkenness would not be a sin.

Sorry about that. It is related remotely

. Drunkenness is an excess. Any excess becomes sin because it controls you. If something controls you, Jesus is no longer your Lord. Drinking wine, however, is not a sin.

veteran · Jul 30, 2011

Groundzero said:
Sorry about that. It is related remotely

. Drunkenness is an excess. Any excess becomes sin because it controls you. If something controls you, Jesus is no longer your Lord. Drinking wine, however, is not a sin.

A little wine for the stomach's sake according to Paul. Some doctors prescribe a little wine for those with high cholesterol. I recall a little boy in Spain around 7-10 years old put his money up on a cafe bar, and the bartender poured him a small glass of half red wine and half soda water.

What are God's laws now for?

What are God's laws for in relation to the New Covenant?

God's laws no longer exist for anyone

God's laws are for Jews only

God's laws are for Christians only

God's laws exist to punish the unrighteous

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