different instructions

RichardBurger · Jul 27, 2011

Peter’s instructions:

Acts 2:36-38
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
38 Then Peter said to them,"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
NKJV

Paul’s instructions:

Acts 16:27-31
27 And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled, drew his sword and was about to kill himself.
28 But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, "Do yourself no harm, for we are all here."
29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas.
30 And he brought them out and said,"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 So they said,"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
NKJV

bigape · Jul 27, 2011

Hello again RichardBurger

The reason these two instructions are different, is because Peter’s instructions are being given to God’s People(Note: Peter calls them brethren).
But Paul’s instructions are given to an unsaved man.
--------------------------------------------------
You see, Jesus came to Earth to bring God’s backsliding people(the Jews), back to God.
And the only way a backslider is brought back to God, is by repentance.

But when the nation of Israel turned their backs on the Lord; God turned to the Gentiles.
--------------------------------------------------
And you will find later on in Acts(Chapter 13), where the Jews are blinded and from that point on, need to be “saved” just like the gentiles do!

Rach1370 · Jul 27, 2011

RichardBurger said:
Peter’s instructions:

Acts 2:36-38
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
38 Then Peter said to them,"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
NKJV

Paul’s instructions:

Acts 16:27-31
27 And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled, drew his sword and was about to kill himself.
28 But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, "Do yourself no harm, for we are all here."
29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas.
30 And he brought them out and said,"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 So they said,"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
NKJV

I think a very simple answer is this: consider the different circumstances.

The first time, when Peter spoke at Pentecost, he had just covered who Jesus was...that He was the son of God, that He had come to save them, and they had just killed Him. Their reply...'oh dear, what can we do'...a reply that shows their fear...what can they do to find redemption, or having killed the only hope are they now lost forever? Peter replies to them, an answer that gives them more details....yes, they did kill Jesus, but if "one repents of sin, and is baptised in Jesus' name, they will be covered".

The next occasion, when the jailer finds that Paul could have escaped, but did not, he had no information to work with. He probably didn't know much of Jesus, of Paul, of anything...he was just doing his job. And then something miraculous happened, something obviously divine...of course he's going to ask how to be saved...it's probably the first time in his life he's actually witness the power of God (any god!). So Paul answers him with the basic details..."believe in Jesus and be saved." Of course there is more...those of us who truly believe in and love Jesus cannot do other than be aware of our sinful natures...the need to repent. All of that comes after, however...the first thing anyone needs to know....Jesus. Believe in Him....it's Jesus who saves. That's how we would answer anyone who 'comes in off the street'. We wouldn't bombard them with details...if they asked us 'how am I to be saved?' we would say very simply "Jesus...believe in Him, and He will save you.'

RichardBurger · Jul 28, 2011

Have you ever read 2nd Peter?

2 Peter 3:14-16
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation — as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
NKJV

Peter walked with Jesus and had the Holy Spirit but things in the gospel of grace as taught by Paul was hard for him to understand. IMHO it is because it was hard for him to understand that works of the Law of Moses did not save anyone under grace. I also think it is hard for those, today, tha have been raised in the Social/Moral gospel churches find it hard to understand.

bling · Jul 28, 2011

Peter is not saying Paul preached a different Gospel, but used harder words to explain the same gospel message.

Rach1370 · Jul 28, 2011

RichardBurger said:
Have you ever read 2nd Peter?

2 Peter 3:14-16
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation — as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
NKJV

Peter walked with Jesus and had the Holy Spirit but things in the gospel of grace as taught by Paul was hard for him to understand. IMHO it is because it was hard for him to understand that works of the Law of Moses did not save anyone under grace. I also think it is hard for those, today, tha have been raised in the Social/Moral gospel churches find it hard to understand.

Yes, I have read 2 Peter. But I have to agree with bling on this...Peter speaks of Paul's topics and the fact that Paul writes intellectually. Some of it requires prayer and careful study of other scripture to come to a solid understanding of what he is talking about.
The gospel that these two men followed was one and the same. Let's not forget that it was Peter who had the vision from God showing him that God included Gentiles as His children and therefore able to receive His salvation. You would think it would have been Paul if the message to the Jew and Gentiles were different.

lawrance · Jul 28, 2011

RichardBurger said:
Have you ever read 2nd Peter?

2 Peter 3:14-16
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation — as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
NKJV

Peter walked with Jesus and had the Holy Spirit but things in the gospel of grace as taught by Paul was hard for him to understand. IMHO it is because it was hard for him to understand that works of the Law of Moses did not save anyone under grace. I also think it is hard for those, today, tha have been raised in the Social/Moral gospel churches find it hard to understand.

In verse 16 that is you bro. sorry to say.

veteran · Jul 29, 2011

Why not simply read... the Scripture, instead of heeding those who try to play games with it?

2 Pet 3:13-17
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

What was the subject Peter was covering in that 2 Peter 3 chapter? Can God's people not follow the flow of a subject within a chapter of His Word?

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of Him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

What "such things" was Peter talking about in the previous verses?

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Once again, what were "these things" Peter was talking about in the previous verses of that chapter? That's what Peter is comparing to Paul's writings about. It's about the things Peter was covering in the previous verses. Well, I wonder what that could be? Go back up to 2 Peter 3:1 and read all the way down this, and you'll discover those "things" Peter was discussing.

Oh, but wait a minute. Peter is going to remind us of "these things" he was discussing there, one last time...

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
(KJV)

Peter's audience knew about those "things" he was discussing. Do you think they understood Peter was talking about those same things within Paul's Epistles? YES!!!

So what are "these things" Peter was talking about?

God's previous destructions upon this earth, and a yet future one by fire, and then new heavens and a new earth. Peter was covering those things in relation to mockers (scoffers) who refused to believe it.

Then when Peter mentioned Paul's writings about these same things, he said some believers ALSO wrestle with this same subject of God's destructions upon the earth within Paul's Epistles. Apostle Paul covered this subject too. Romans 8 is one of the major Scriptures about it.

Many here on this forum also wrest with not only Scripture from Apostles Peter and Paul about this matter of God's destructions upon the earth, but also within Scripture of God's prophets about it, and our Lord Jesus when He spoke about it in The Gospel Books. This is why Peter starts the 2 Peter 3 chapter with the command to be mindful of the words spoken by God's Old Testament prophets about the end of this world also.

Now what is that revealing? It reveals Apostle Peter, Apostle Paul, and all the Apostles, and God's OT prophets, taught this same subject Peter covered there. That mean unity of all them speaking the SAME things.

RichardBurger · Jul 29, 2011

MR ROSENBERGER said:
In verse 16 that is you bro. sorry to say.

No insults allowed. This rule will be strictly enforced. This community has a core set of beliefs that we clearly state at multiple locations on this website. However, we recognize that unity is Christ is the ultimate aim and this can be achieved even when there is disagreement on doctrinal issues. A good way to avoid this issue is to focus on the doctrine and not the person. This, of course, includes any kind of insults based on race or beliefs.

FHII · Jul 29, 2011

RichardBurger said:
Peter’s instructions:

Paul’s instructions:

Hello Richard,

I like what you said, as well as bigape and Rach. All interesting and insightful comments. I especially liked Rach's comments that the situation was different. I agree with Bigape almost... I don't really like the term "God's People" or "unsaved". Peter was talking to "others" who were mocking the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentacost. We can assume they were pharasees or some others who had a hand in the crucifixion since Peter scolds them for it. When it is contrasted with "unsaved" (which I'd use the term Gentiles instead), it suggests that they (the "others" who were Jews) were saved. I don't think so. The overall point is good, but I suppose I'm just knitpicking at terms used.

Richard, I'd like for you to comment on a few related verses:

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The first verse I alluded to notes that "even as many as the Lord our God shall call." I don't see why this doesn't include the Gentiles. I agree at the moment, Peter was talking to the Jews, as was Jesus. I also agree that even then, it didn't matter if they were Gentiles as well. True... The message was crafted for the Jews... I fully agree. However, it was suitable for the Gentiles as well. During the Gospels, there were a few (not many, but a few) Gentiles who benefitted from Jesus' teaching and miracles. One of the most prominent is the Samaritan woman at the well, which is found in John 4. Clearly a descendant from Jacob (as she mentions Jacob as her [people's] father, but is not a Jew. Yet she says the Messiah will come tell her people all things.

Even in the OT we see a few Gentiles being included. There is Rehab, and Ruth for example. My point is that yes it was possible for Gentiles to be included, though it was rare. Have a look and tell me what you see.

The second two verses I bring up because both Peter and Paul are quoting Joel (who said in Joel 2 "whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered"). Both are quoting an Old Testament prophet, yet to two different audiences. For these reasons, while I agree with what you are saying overall, I don't agree that we can separate Peter's and Paul's ministry from each other, or Paul's and Jesus' or Paul's and the OT. Yes, Paul was bringing in new revelation, but it was not a separate and new gospel. But rather a continuation and further explanation of what Jesus preached and of what the OT prophesied about.

I'd also like to comment on something else Peter said in Acts that is just my opinion, but with good reason. If you go to Acts 1:16 Peter begins to tell the others that the scriptures need to be fulfilled and Judas had to be replaced. They ended up picking Mattias, and the Bible says he was numbered with the eleven. Peter was referring to Psa 69:25 and 109:8. Who do you believe was really fulfilling those scriptures: Mattias or Paul? Just a thought....

RichardBurger · Jul 29, 2011

FHII said:
Hello Richard,

I like what you said, as well as bigape and Rach. All interesting and insightful comments. I especially liked Rach's comments that the situation was different. I agree with Bigape almost... I don't really like the term "God's People" or "unsaved". Peter was talking to "others" who were mocking the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentacost. We can assume they were pharasees or some others who had a hand in the crucifixion since Peter scolds them for it. When it is contrasted with "unsaved" (which I'd use the term Gentiles instead), it suggests that they (the "others" who were Jews) were saved. I don't think so. The overall point is good, but I suppose I'm just knitpicking at terms used.

Richard, I'd like for you to comment on a few related verses:

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The first verse I alluded to notes that "even as many as the Lord our God shall call." I don't see why this doesn't include the Gentiles. I agree at the moment, Peter was talking to the Jews, as was Jesus. I also agree that even then, it didn't matter if they were Gentiles as well. True... The message was crafted for the Jews... I fully agree. However, it was suitable for the Gentiles as well. During the Gospels, there were a few (not many, but a few) Gentiles who benefitted from Jesus' teaching and miracles. One of the most prominent is the Samaritan woman at the well, which is found in John 4. Clearly a descendant from Jacob (as she mentions Jacob as her [people's] father, but is not a Jew. Yet she says the Messiah will come tell her people all things.

Even in the OT we see a few Gentiles being included. There is Rehab, and Ruth for example. My point is that yes it was possible for Gentiles to be included, though it was rare. Have a look and tell me what you see.

The second two verses I bring up because both Peter and Paul are quoting Joel (who said in Joel 2 "whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered"). Both are quoting an Old Testament prophet, yet to two different audiences. For these reasons, while I agree with what you are saying overall, I don't agree that we can separate Peter's and Paul's ministry from each other, or Paul's and Jesus' or Paul's and the OT. Yes, Paul was bringing in new revelation, but it was not a separate and new gospel. But rather a continuation and further explanation of what Jesus preached and of what the OT prophesied about.

I'd also like to comment on something else Peter said in Acts that is just my opinion, but with good reason. If you go to Acts 1:16 Peter begins to tell the others that the scriptures need to be fulfilled and Judas had to be replaced. They ended up picking Mattias, and the Bible says he was numbered with the eleven. Peter was referring to Psa 69:25 and 109:8. Who do you believe was really fulfilling those scriptures: Mattias or Paul? Just a thought....

Well it is a fact that Mattias replaced Judas. -- As long as you do not want to see a difference then, to you, there will never be a differenc.

If you are going to go back and try to find scriptures that say the Gospel of grace was taught by Jesus I am sure you can find some that you think fit.

However many of the things Jesus said will be in the 1000year rule of Jesus on this earth. The comment to the samarition women about living water is IMHO refering to the rivers of water that will flow to heal the Nations from Jeruslem when Jesus sets up His rule, the 1000 year kingdom. (see Rev.)

The religious have always tried to place the gospel of grace ((((((that was hidden in God))))) into the teachings of Jesus and the 12.

Tell me something, when Paul writes that the gospel he was given by Jesus was """""hidden in God""""" why don't people believe it instead of ignoring it. If it was """""hidden in God""""": then it was not revealed. If it was already revealed then it wasn't hidden was it?

The religious will never see the program of grace as long as they try to drive law into it.

FHII · Jul 29, 2011

RichardBurger said:
Well it is a fact that Mattias replaced Judas. -- As long as you do not want to see a difference then, to you, there will never be a differenc.

If you are going to go back and try to find scriptures that say the Gospel of grace was taught by Jesus I am sure you can find some that you think fit.

However many of the things Jesus said will be in the 1000year rule of Jesus on this earth. The comment to the samarition women about living water is IMHO refering to the rivers of water that will flow to heal the Nations from Jeruslem when Jesus sets up His rule, the 1000 year kingdom. (see Rev.)

The religious have always tried to place the gospel of grace ((((((that was hidden in God))))) into the teachings of Jesus and the 12.

Tell me something, when Paul writes that the gospel he was given by Jesus was """""hidden in God""""" why don't people believe it instead of ignoring it. If it was """""hidden in God""""": then it was not revealed. If it was already revealed then it wasn't hidden was it?

The religious will never see the program of grace as long as they try to drive law into it.

Yes, Richard. It was hidden in God. But so what? It's now revealed, is it not? Why are you dwelling on something that WAS hidden, but now is revealed? Paul revealed it, but there is an even deeper message that had to be revealed. I hope you understand why I think Paul's ministry was a continuation -- not something new -- of what Jesus preached. Paul rooted what he said back to the OT. Again, it's a small point but I see what you are saying. Do you see what I'm saying, though? The Gospel was to be extended to the Gentiles. Jesus may have preached to the Jews, and set up a kingdom for them, but it did not exclude Gentiles. Only a few benefited. However, it did serve to open a floodgate. This is why I disagree that Jesus was only preaching to the Jews and not the Gentiles.

The comments to the Samaritan woman, IMHO, was a sign that he was coming for the Gentiles. It's not a sign that it'll happen in the 1K reign. My evidence is me and all of my brethren. Gentiles who now are a part of the Body of Christ. Jesus told a Samaritan woman, "I am he". He was on the planet and speaking to a heathen. He told that woman, "I am who you and your people seek!" It was not a prophecy for the 1 K reign. It was in the present time. It happened in the year 33 or 34 AD.

It was Jesus telling the gentile nation, "I'm coming for you". You can't just dismiss this story, Richard. Why is Jesus speaking telling the Truth to this woman... A harlot nonetheless! It doesn't lend support to your belief that there is a separation between Paul and Jesus/Peter. It does suggest that there was a flow in Paul's ministry from Jesus to Paul.

Jesus is clearly giving a great revelation to a gentile. He never verbally told the disciples flat out "I am he". Or am I mistaken?

Now this:

"As long as you do not want to see a difference then, to you, there will never be a differenc."

Huh? With all due respect get off your high horse and answer the question! I will not be treated as a child. This is what I have against you Richard... Who the Heck are you? draw your sword and give scripture! This quote is very patronizing. I don't play with others that patronize me. Veteran and Mr Rosenberger I will ignore. I see them for what they are. But you.... I can deal with you... Just don't patronize me like you just did.

Sheesh! I probably won't be around much longer.... I really don't like attidude. It's easy to ignore Veteran and Mr Rosenberger, but when I agree with someone like you and you have a condiscending tone.... I just don't want to discuss things.

RichardBurger · Jul 29, 2011

FHII said:
Yes, Richard. It was hidden in God. But so what? It's now revealed, is it not? Why are you dwelling on something that WAS hidden, but now is revealed? Paul revealed it, but there is an even deeper message that had to be revealed. I hope you understand why I think Paul's ministry was a continuation -- not something new -- of what Jesus preached. Paul rooted what he said back to the OT. Again, it's a small point but I see what you are saying. Do you see what I'm saying, though? The Gospel was to be extended to the Gentiles. Jesus may have preached to the Jews, and set up a kingdom for them, but it did not exclude Gentiles. Only a few benefited. However, it did serve to open a floodgate. This is why I disagree that Jesus was only preaching to the Jews and not the Gentiles.

The comments to the Samaritan woman, IMHO, was a sign that he was coming for the Gentiles. It's not a sign that it'll happen in the 1K reign. My evidence is me and all of my brethren. Gentiles who now are a part of the Body of Christ. Jesus told a Samaritan woman, "I am he". He was on the planet and speaking to a heathen. He told that woman, "I am who you and your people seek!" It was not a prophecy for the 1 K reign. It was in the present time. It happened in the year 33 or 34 AD.

It was Jesus telling the gentile nation, "I'm coming for you". You can't just dismiss this story, Richard. Why is Jesus speaking telling the Truth to this woman... A harlot nonetheless! It doesn't lend support to your belief that there is a separation between Paul and Jesus/Peter. It does suggest that there was a flow in Paul's ministry from Jesus to Paul.

Jesus is clearly giving a great revelation to a gentile. He never verbally told the disciples flat out "I am he". Or am I mistaken?

Now this:

"As long as you do not want to see a difference then, to you, there will never be a differenc."

Huh? With all due respect get off your high horse and answer the question! I will not be treated as a child. This is what I have against you Richard... Who the Heck are you? draw your sword and give scripture! This quote is very patronizing. I don't play with others that patronize me. Veteran and Mr Rosenberger I will ignore. I see them for what they are. But you.... I can deal with you... Just don't patronize me like you just did.

Sheesh! I probably won't be around much longer.... I really don't like attidude. It's easy to ignore Veteran and Mr Rosenberger, but when I agree with someone like you and you have a condiscending tone.... I just don't want to discuss things.

So what!!!!!

Today we have, in the churches, a doctrine that takes what Jesus and the 12 taught and inserts it into what Paul taught and leaves us with a blended, harmonized social/moral gospel which denies that the shed blood of Jesus is sufficent for salvation. In it a person has to have their own works for salvation with only lip service to Jesus' shed blood.

Is that okay with you?

No where in the teachings of Jesus and the 12 is there any mention that the church (a called out assembly) has a head (Jesus Christ) and a body consistng of the childern of God. To the Jews Jesus is a king and they are His subjects. To those in the grace church He is a brother and we are joint heirs with Him. Is that a difference? Perhaps not to many.

You said; "
Huh? With all due respect get off your high horse and answer the question! I will not be treated as a child. This is what I have against you Richard... Who the Heck are you? draw your sword and give scripture! This quote is very patronizing. I don't play with others that patronize me. Veteran and Mr Rosenberger I will ignore. I see them for what they are. But you.... I can deal with you... Just don't patronize me like you just did.

All I said was, ""As long as you do not want to see a difference then, to you, there will never be a difference." and that is a true statement for anyone including me. If you took it personally then you have blamed yourself.

High horse! Well you get off yours. No where have I insulted you are called you names etc. As for answering all your questions do you answer all mine? I think not. I don't have a high horse nor do I treat anyone as anything other than an equal.

But I can see that our discussing anything has been soured so I don't thinlk I will be responding to you anymore. I am not going to spend my time in the blame game.

FHII · Jul 29, 2011

RichardBurger said:
So what!!!!!

Today we have, in the churches, a doctrine that takes what Jesus and the 12 taught and inserts it into what Paul taught and leaves us with a blended, harmonized social/moral gospel which denies that the shed blood of Jesus is sufficent for salvation. In it a person has to have their own works for salvation with only lip service to Jesus' shed blood.

Is that okay with you?

No where in the teachings of Jesus and the 12 is there any mention that the church (a called out assembly) has a head (Jesus Christ) and a body consistng of the childern of God. To the Jews Jesus is a king and they are His subjects. To those in the grace church He is a brother and we are joint heirs with Him. Is that a difference? Perhaps not to many.

You said; "
Huh? With all due respect get off your high horse and answer the question! I will not be treated as a child. This is what I have against you Richard... Who the Heck are you? draw your sword and give scripture! This quote is very patronizing. I don't play with others that patronize me. Veteran and Mr Rosenberger I will ignore. I see them for what they are. But you.... I can deal with you... Just don't patronize me like you just did.

All I said was, ""As long as you do not want to see a difference then, to you, there will never be a difference." and that is a true statement for anyone including me. If you took it personally then you have blamed yourself.

High horse! Well you get off yours. No where have I insulted you are called you names etc. As for answering all your questions do you answer all mine? I think not. I don't have a high horse nor do I treat anyone as anything other than an equal.

But I can see that our discussing anything has been soured so I don't thinlk I will be responding to you anymore. I am not going to spend my time in the blame game.

Yea, Richard. I do answer all your questions! I'm the only one who has. You got a great message, Richard. I'm probably your only true ally. If you don't understand that your are condenscending at times, then I can't bother with you. Work on your social skills and get back to me.

Rach1370 · Jul 29, 2011

RichardBurger said:
No insults allowed. This rule will be strictly enforced. This community has a core set of beliefs that we clearly state at multiple locations on this website. However, we recognize that unity is Christ is the ultimate aim and this can be achieved even when there is disagreement on doctrinal issues. A good way to avoid this issue is to focus on the doctrine and not the person. This, of course, includes any kind of insults based on race or beliefs.

Richard. I know you will probably perceive this as an insult...it is not intended as such. But you have to relax a bit. The above was your reaction to someone saying "In verse 16 that is you bro. sorry to say." Basically that person was saying they thought the misunderstanding of the text was from you. That is an opinion. All have them, all are allowed to them. In fact, you have them and voice them as much as any other.

RichardBurger said:
As long as you do not want to see a difference then, to you, there will never be a differenc.

If you are going to go back and try to find scriptures that say the Gospel of grace was taught by Jesus I am sure you can find some that you think fit.

The sad fact is that this is you doing what everyone else does. I am not saying it's wrong...we all have the right to voice our opinions on others opinions! But I'm afraid that you won't have any satisfying conversations if you leapt to your defence all the time, and then feel free to do exactly what others are doing. Now granted, there are some here who do attack, who are mean, and who don't care for the people behind the opinions...but as a general rule, most of us just like talking and having discussions...even when we disagree.
Honestly, it's not often that someone here agrees completely with me, but just because they don't, I don't let myself take it personally...even though it is....personal. Everyone has a personal opinion, which makes it just as much about them as it does me...and let's remember that it's most about Jesus. It's much more important to defend what Jesus said and thinks than it is to defend what we think.
So please, Richard, relax a bit, try and enjoy the conversations here, even we disagree with you...cause when that's happening, your disagreeing with us too!!

lawrance · Jul 29, 2011

RichardBurger said:
So what!!!!!

Today we have, in the churches, a doctrine that takes what Jesus and the 12 taught and inserts it into what Paul taught and leaves us with a blended, harmonized social/moral gospel which denies that the shed blood of Jesus is sufficent for salvation. In it a person has to have their own works for salvation with only lip service to Jesus' shed blood.

================================================================================================================================
Get this straight Richard is that just another slandering position.
I wonder if the people who only rattle on about pushing only that the shed blood of Jesus is sufficient for salvation and that other stupid slandering position that of their own works ?
Now come on ! no one could be that stupid to believe that rubbish bro. did you know that it's only the works through Christ that are of value, that means us in Christ bro. doing his works so it's not of our own works at all bro.
Why is it that my perception is that some are trying to drive away people from coming into the true Jesus Christ and some are just selling a fake type of jesus that you are out side of.
I think it's just something to try to win ignorant people with just ignorant hope.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is that okay with you?

No where in the teachings of Jesus and the 12 is there any mention that the church (a called out assembly) has a head (Jesus Christ) and a body consistng of the childern of God. To the Jews Jesus is a king and they are His subjects. To those in the grace church He is a brother and we are joint heirs with Him. Is that a difference? Perhaps not to many.

You said; "
Huh? With all due respect get off your high horse and answer the question! I will not be treated as a child. This is what I have against you Richard... Who the Heck are you? draw your sword and give scripture! This quote is very patronizing. I don't play with others that patronize me. Veteran and Mr Rosenberger I will ignore. I see them for what they are. But you.... I can deal with you... Just don't patronize me like you just did.

All I said was, ""As long as you do not want to see a difference then, to you, there will never be a difference." and that is a true statement for anyone including me. If you took it personally then you have blamed yourself.

High horse! Well you get off yours. No where have I insulted you are called you names etc. As for answering all your questions do you answer all mine? I think not. I don't have a high horse nor do I treat anyone as anything other than an equal.

But I can see that our discussing anything has been soured so I don't thinlk I will be responding to you anymore. I am not going to spend my time in the blame game.

FHII · Jul 30, 2011

Mr. Rosenberger wrote:

"Get this straight Richard is that just another slandering position. I wonder if the people who only rattle on about pushing only that the shed blood of Jesus is sufficient for salvation and that other stupid slandering position that of their own works ? Now come on ! no one could be that stupid to believe that rubbish bro. did you know that it's only the works through Christ that are of value, that means us in Christ bro. doing his works so it's not of our own works at all bro.
Why is it that my perception is that some are trying to drive away people from coming into the true Jesus Christ and some are just selling a fake type of jesus that you are out side of.I think it's just something to try to win ignorant people with just ignorant hope."

I for one believe that the blood that Jesus shed is sufficient for salvation. And I object to you insinuating it's stupid. Faith in Him isn't stupid. It's the cornerstone of our religion. The sad thing is if I can get one person to believe that, then I can show you in the NT and Paul's teachings why Christians "behave". Yet, if they don't they are still saved, yet again, they will "behave". The thing is their behavior doesn't save them, it's a reaction to what does save them.

Rach might want to hear it, cause she's got a good spirit. Richard... Well, I'm not sure what or if he wants to hear anything. I think most, including you, just want to hear about how your works are gaining you points in heaven and towards salvation.

lawrance · Jul 30, 2011

FHII said:
Mr. Rosenberger wrote:

"Get this straight Richard is that just another slandering position. I wonder if the people who only rattle on about pushing only that the shed blood of Jesus is sufficient for salvation and that other stupid slandering position that of their own works ? Now come on ! no one could be that stupid to believe that rubbish bro. did you know that it's only the works through Christ that are of value, that means us in Christ bro. doing his works so it's not of our own works at all bro.
Why is it that my perception is that some are trying to drive away people from coming into the true Jesus Christ and some are just selling a fake type of jesus that you are out side of.I think it's just something to try to win ignorant people with just ignorant hope."

I for one believe that the blood that Jesus shed is sufficient for salvation. And I object to you insinuating it's stupid. Faith in Him isn't stupid. It's the cornerstone of our religion. The sad thing is if I can get one person to believe that, then I can show you in the NT and Paul's teachings why Christians "behave". Yet, if they don't they are still saved, yet again, they will "behave". The thing is their behavior doesn't save them, it's a reaction to what does save them.

Rach might want to hear it, cause she's got a good spirit. Richard... Well, I'm not sure what or if he wants to hear anything. I think most, including you, just want to hear about how your works are gaining you points in heaven and towards salvation.

Dear FHII
Thank you.
But i will have to say it is not about my or your works gaining anything in heaven or salvation because my or your works are but filthy rags. but i hope you can understand that there is a big or even a massive difference in God working through one. as it has nothing to do with me but it has everything to do in Christ.

How could you believe that i would be saying anything like that Faith in him was wrong ? as i do say it's all about Faith in him /

When one refers to (the blood that Jesus shed is sufficient for salvation) that point can and has been twisted to push silly points of views that i have heard said.
in the last 3 years like as if it is something devoid of any commonsense as i know a dude that raves on about that very point to. and that as he is also always on about once saved all ways saved filth and he thinks he can never loose his salvation never no matter what he does. kill anyone just for the fun of it ? yes he is still saved he says go out and kill as many people as he wants, kill you pets, punch out old people, lie, steal anything ! you can sell drugs to children rape molest children blow up peoples countries even blasphemy Chris reject the Spirit ? he even wanted to have a go at me but he was to gutless to even have a go when i said he was wrong.
You can loose your salvation and that's a fact. someone sold out Jesus ? and i know of once christian people who are complete atheist now.
Jesus is the cornerstone of our being in him with him through him.
Paul's teachings are not in anyway disconnected with Jesus so when we read what he is saying it must tie in with Jesus Christ and if it does not line up with Christ then i think we are being mislead by the works of Devils. but i see Devils twist his words to oppose Jesus.
Now i believe that we are coming to the days predicted and there is all types of false doctrines push out to deceive even the elect.
I believe there are Devils that are making out to befriend the Jewish people but the fact is they are not a friend of anyone at all but week gutless cunning strifers that tempt all with deceptions.
Beware of anyone who says their is no Hell. and i hear this in many so called churches now days.
There is a Hell and Jesus warned us so.
So with OSOS doctrine how could there be a Hell.

RichardBurger · Jul 30, 2011

MR ROSENBERGER said:
Dear FHII
Thank you.
But i will have to say it is not about my or your works gaining anything in heaven or salvation because my or your works are but filthy rags. but i hope you can understand that there is a big or even a massive difference in God working through one. as it has nothing to do with me but it has everything to do in Christ.

How could you believe that i would be saying anything like that Faith in him was wrong ? as i do say it's all about Faith in him /

When one refers to (the blood that Jesus shed is sufficient for salvation) that point can and has been twisted to push silly points of views that i have heard said.
in the last 3 years like as if it is something devoid of any commonsense as i know a dude that raves on about that very point to. and that as he is also always on about once saved all ways saved filth and he thinks he can never loose his salvation never no matter what he does. kill anyone just for the fun of it ? yes he is still saved he says go out and kill as many people as he wants, kill you pets, punch out old people, lie, steal anything ! you can sell drugs to children rape molest children blow up peoples countries even blasphemy Chris reject the Spirit ? he even wanted to have a go at me but he was to gutless to even have a go when i said he was wrong.
You can loose your salvation and that's a fact. someone sold out Jesus ? and i know of once christian people who are complete atheist now.
Jesus is the cornerstone of our being in him with him through him.
Paul's teachings are not in anyway disconnected with Jesus so when we read what he is saying it must tie in with Jesus Christ and if it does not line up with Christ then i think we are being mislead by the works of Devils. but i see Devils twist his words to oppose Jesus.
Now i believe that we are coming to the days predicted and there is all types of false doctrines push out to deceive even the elect.
I believe there are Devils that are making out to befriend the Jewish people but the fact is they are not a friend of anyone at all but week gutless cunning strifers that tempt all with deceptions.
Beware of anyone who says their is no Hell. and i hear this in many so called churches now days.
There is a Hell and Jesus warned us so.
So with OSOS doctrine how could there be a Hell.

OSAS does not teach that there is no Hell. That is a false charge. Why would you do that?

FHII · Jul 30, 2011

MR ROSENBERGER said:
Dear FHII
Thank you.
But i will have to say it is not about my or your works gaining anything in heaven or salvation because my or your works are but filthy rags. but i hope you can understand that there is a big or even a massive difference in God working through one. as it has nothing to do with me but it has everything to do in Christ.

How could you believe that i would be saying anything like that Faith in him was wrong ? as i do say it's all about Faith in him /

When one refers to (the blood that Jesus shed is sufficient for salvation) that point can and has been twisted to push silly points of views that i have heard said.
in the last 3 years like as if it is something devoid of any commonsense as i know a dude that raves on about that very point to. and that as he is also always on about once saved all ways saved filth and he thinks he can never loose his salvation never no matter what he does. kill anyone just for the fun of it ? yes he is still saved he says go out and kill as many people as he wants, kill you pets, punch out old people, lie, steal anything ! you can sell drugs to children rape molest children blow up peoples countries even blasphemy Chris reject the Spirit ? he even wanted to have a go at me but he was to gutless to even have a go when i said he was wrong.
You can loose your salvation and that's a fact. someone sold out Jesus ? and i know of once christian people who are complete atheist now.
Jesus is the cornerstone of our being in him with him through him.
Paul's teachings are not in anyway disconnected with Jesus so when we read what he is saying it must tie in with Jesus Christ and if it does not line up with Christ then i think we are being mislead by the works of Devils. but i see Devils twist his words to oppose Jesus.
Now i believe that we are coming to the days predicted and there is all types of false doctrines push out to deceive even the elect.
I believe there are Devils that are making out to befriend the Jewish people but the fact is they are not a friend of anyone at all but week gutless cunning strifers that tempt all with deceptions.
Beware of anyone who says their is no Hell. and i hear this in many so called churches now days.
There is a Hell and Jesus warned us so.
So with OSOS doctrine how could there be a Hell.

I appreciate your response Mr. Rosenberger. If you will hear me out and inquire of things I say I will explain my point of view. I will try to be brief as no one likes long, drawn out posts. With that in mind, if you'll bear with me and work with me, I'll explain things from my understanding.

It is good that you realize that all our works are as filthy rags. I agree with that. From that I gather that nothing we do in the flesh matters to our salvation. When you ask how I could believe you don't believe in faith, well. It comes from some of your previous posts. For example:

Get this straight Richard is that just another slandering position. I wonder if the people who only rattle on about pushing only that the shed blood of Jesus is sufficient for salvation and that other stupid slandering position that of their own works ?

Do you blame me for coming to the conclusion that I made based on that statement? Yes, I actually believe that the blood of Jesus is sufficient for salvation, and it seems to me that you lumped that into other "stupid slandering positions".

So the Bible says oftentimes that grace through faith alone is enough. Hey, I believe it! But the very humanistic question which you bring up comes to head... Does that mean that we can be murderers, child rapists, girl rapists, et cetera? No. It doesn't. I like the verse that I've quoted many times before that says, "All things are lawful, but not all things are expedient."

It's really sad that the human flesh comes to the conclusion that when liberty is given, the human mind thinks of all the evil things it can do. I'm not saying it's you only. But if God freed us from the law and said it no longer applies, why do we as fleshly creatures start thinking about the most evil things we can do? We should be praising God that we can let are guard down to do other more important things, but instead we wonder if murder is ok. I'm not pointing the finger at you, Mr. Rosenberger. I'm just saying it's human (fleshly) nature to think that.

So you have the OSAS doctrine. Yes, I believe it. I believe in predestination because the Bible preaches it. The problem comes when people think that the predestinated don't have to work. They were chosen before the foundations of the world, but they were also chosen to follow the path of righteousness. It doesn't mean that they will use their liberty wrongly. Not only were they chosen to salvation before the world began, their works were also predestinated. It was predestinated that they would follow CHrist and not do evil in the flesh.

OSAS.... I gather that you and many others will point me to Calvin's works. I'm not a Calvinist. I've never read his works. All I know about Calvin comes from Wikipedia. Tell me that's a reliable source! It is an insult to John Calvin to say I'm a Calvinist because I haven't read his stuff. After reading his stuff, I'll make a conclusion. Right or wrong, I gather he was a dedicated man.

But OSAS to me doesn't mean there is no hell. It also doesn't mean we can or will do anything we want, and by the scripture of Paul, it says we won't.

When Paul said, "All things are lawful unto me, but not all things are expedient..." I take every word into concideration. Yes, I believe ALL things are lawful. That means every bad thing you can list. I hate to say it, but yes, it does include murder, child rape, et cetera. It's grace! It's given! HOWEVER, and mark my words... Not all things are expedient.

A true Christian is going to realize that he is free from the law. But Paul taught much more. Why are we free from the law? So we could focus our attention on the inward man and not have to worry about what the flesh did.

Yes, I see Paul condemning many sins. Jesus did indeed fulfill the law and it's ended. It doesn't apply to us. But Jesus said "come and learn of me". Grace comes by faith and faith comes by hearing the Word. We are free from the Law so we can focus on Grace. Paul also said that the weapons of our warfare are not carnal. In that he said, "we don't need to murder people" He also also said to live within the confines of the law of the land. He also said don't do stuff that brings reproach to the Body of Christ. He also said get along with the heathen as much as you can. I can give you verses if you need them... But yes, they are in the teachings of Paul.

I honestly believe that being a Christian does not mean you are following a moral or social gospel. I do however believe that even with grace through faith a Christian will follow ALL the teachings of Paul and the other prophets and apostles. Doing so is not going to get us into heaven. But it is a result of faith.

So can I murder? Sure.... But if I do, I go to jail and can't attend Church. Is my salvation affected then? Well if I believe that faith comes by hearing a preacher, yes.

So can I be a drunk? Sure... But if I do, my mind will be so clouded and I'll spend all my time in a drunken stupor that I won't be clear headed when I read the Bible or hear my preacher.

Can I be a brawler? Sure... But if I do, none of my fellow members of the Body of CHrist will want to be around me, and I won't have the benefit of fellowship and iron sharpening iron.

Can I be gay? (I'm not by the way) Sure, but I might get AIDS and die. Thus I don't fullfill my time on earth and don't get to finish whatever God wants me to do. Plus I will be looked down upon and bring reproach to the entire real Church.

Can I buy a Mercedes Benz (well, no I can't!) Well if I could, praise God! But a Ford or Chevy will get me to my job, and that extra money I spent on the Benz could've been given to the ministry.

I could go on and on.... But do you see my point? Christians... True Christians put Christ first and ask the question of their doings, "how does this effect my relationship with God?" Paul spoke of this and it's the main point behind verses like 1 Cor 6:12. Paul never denied that faith alone saves... But he also noted that you are an idiot and not really a Christian if your flesh overpowers you.

Now, James had it wrong. He was almost right, but no. Faith alone without works is enough. Faith without works is not dead faith. See, Mr. Rosenberger... I don't murder. I don't steal. I'm not gay and I don't cheat on my wife. I like beer and I do drink, but not to excess. I give to charity. The heathen can and some of them do all this too. I'm saved by grace through faith alone. Not because I do or don't do these things. James had a great message, but he was not an apostle and when he says "faith without works is dead" he's wrong. But by no means is his overall messsage wrong. He was a wise man, and said a lot of useful and prophetic things, just like Martin Luther, whom I admire. But some things were just wrong and not in line with the Bible teaching.

Let me sum it up. Yes, Christians are free to do anything they want in the flesh (they can't do wrong spiritually... They can't blasheme God or deny him or believe false doctrine). But a true Christian will understand that this freedom means they are the LORD'S free man. That means they are still the Lord's and still a prisioner of Christ. It means they will put his bidding above their own desires. It means they won't do anything to bring reproach to the Body of CHrist, because they love the brethren and they want to be left alone by the heathen. It means they will obey the laws of the land for Christ's sake as the Bible says.

I'm sure you have a rebuttal. I'm sure you have many questions, and please bring it on in the spirit of kindness and understanding. I am humble and can admit when I don't know the answer to things.... I'm just sharing my knowledge or thoughts (if you will) on what Christ means for us.

MR ROSENBERGER said:
Dear FHII
Thank you.
But i will have to say it is not about my or your works gaining anything in heaven or salvation because my or your works are but filthy rags. but i hope you can understand that there is a big or even a massive difference in God working through one. as it has nothing to do with me but it has everything to do in Christ.

How could you believe that i would be saying anything like that Faith in him was wrong ? as i do say it's all about Faith in him /

When one refers to (the blood that Jesus shed is sufficient for salvation) that point can and has been twisted to push silly points of views that i have heard said.
in the last 3 years like as if it is something devoid of any commonsense as i know a dude that raves on about that very point to. and that as he is also always on about once saved all ways saved filth and he thinks he can never loose his salvation never no matter what he does. kill anyone just for the fun of it ? yes he is still saved he says go out and kill as many people as he wants, kill you pets, punch out old people, lie, steal anything ! you can sell drugs to children rape molest children blow up peoples countries even blasphemy Chris reject the Spirit ? he even wanted to have a go at me but he was to gutless to even have a go when i said he was wrong.
You can loose your salvation and that's a fact. someone sold out Jesus ? and i know of once christian people who are complete atheist now.
Jesus is the cornerstone of our being in him with him through him.
Paul's teachings are not in anyway disconnected with Jesus so when we read what he is saying it must tie in with Jesus Christ and if it does not line up with Christ then i think we are being mislead by the works of Devils. but i see Devils twist his words to oppose Jesus.
Now i believe that we are coming to the days predicted and there is all types of false doctrines push out to deceive even the elect.
I believe there are Devils that are making out to befriend the Jewish people but the fact is they are not a friend of anyone at all but week gutless cunning strifers that tempt all with deceptions.
Beware of anyone who says their is no Hell. and i hear this in many so called churches now days.
There is a Hell and Jesus warned us so.
So with OSOS doctrine how could there be a Hell.

I appreciate your response Mr. Rosenberger. If you will hear me out and inquire of things I say I will explain my point of view. I will try to be brief as no one likes long, drawn out posts. With that in mind, if you'll bear with me and work with me, I'll explain things from my understanding.

It is good that you realize that all our works are as filthy rags. I agree with that. From that I gather that nothing we do in the flesh matters to our salvation. When you ask how I could believe you don't believe in faith, well. It comes from some of your previous posts. For example:

Get this straight Richard is that just another slandering position. I wonder if the people who only rattle on about pushing only that the shed blood of Jesus is sufficient for salvation and that other stupid slandering position that of their own works ?

Do you blame me for coming to the conclusion that I made based on that statement? Yes, I actually believe that the blood of Jesus is sufficient for salvation, and it seems to me that you lumped that into other "stupid slandering positions".

So the Bible says oftentimes that grace through faith alone is enough. Hey, I believe it! But the very humanistic question which you bring up comes to head... Does that mean that we can be murderers, child rapists, girl rapists, et cetera? No. It doesn't. I like the verse that I've quoted many times before that says, "All things are lawful, but not all things are expedient."

It's really sad that the human flesh comes to the conclusion that when liberty is given, the human mind thinks of all the evil things it can do. I'm not saying it's you only. But if God freed us from the law and said it no longer applies, why do we as fleshly creatures start thinking about the most evil things we can do? We should be praising God that we can let are guard down to do other more important things, but instead we wonder if murder is ok. I'm not pointing the finger at you, Mr. Rosenberger. I'm just saying it's human (fleshly) nature to think that.

So you have the OSAS doctrine. Yes, I believe it. I believe in predestination because the Bible preaches it. The problem comes when people think that the predestinated don't have to work. They were chosen before the foundations of the world, but they were also chosen to follow the path of righteousness. It doesn't mean that they will use their liberty wrongly. Not only were they chosen to salvation before the world began, their works were also predestinated. It was predestinated that they would follow CHrist and not do evil in the flesh.

OSAS.... I gather that you and many others will point me to Calvin's works. I'm not a Calvinist. I've never read his works. All I know about Calvin comes from Wikipedia. Tell me that's a reliable source! It is an insult to John Calvin to say I'm a Calvinist because I haven't read his stuff. After reading his stuff, I'll make a conclusion. Right or wrong, I gather he was a dedicated man.

But OSAS to me doesn't mean there is no hell. It also doesn't mean we can or will do anything we want, and by the scripture of Paul, it says we won't.

When Paul said, "All things are lawful unto me, but not all things are expedient..." I take every word into concideration. Yes, I believe ALL things are lawful. That means every bad thing you can list. I hate to say it, but yes, it does include murder, child rape, et cetera. It's grace! It's given! HOWEVER, and mark my words... Not all things are expedient.

A true Christian is going to realize that he is free from the law. But Paul taught much more. Why are we free from the law? So we could focus our attention on the inward man and not have to worry about what the flesh did.

Yes, I see Paul condemning many sins. Jesus did indeed fulfill the law and it's ended. It doesn't apply to us. But Jesus said "come and learn of me". Grace comes by faith and faith comes by hearing the Word. We are free from the Law so we can focus on Grace. Paul also said that the weapons of our warfare are not carnal. In that he said, "we don't need to murder people" He also also said to live within the confines of the law of the land. He also said don't do stuff that brings reproach to the Body of Christ. He also said get along with the heathen as much as you can. I can give you verses if you need them... But yes, they are in the teachings of Paul.

I honestly believe that being a Christian does not mean you are following a moral or social gospel. I do however believe that even with grace through faith a Christian will follow ALL the teachings of Paul and the other prophets and apostles. Doing so is not going to get us into heaven. But it is a result of faith.

So can I murder? Sure.... But if I do, I go to jail and can't attend Church. Is my salvation affected then? Well if I believe that faith comes by hearing a preacher, yes.

So can I be a drunk? Sure... But if I do, my mind will be so clouded and I'll spend all my time in a drunken stupor that I won't be clear headed when I read the Bible or hear my preacher.

Can I be a brawler? Sure... But if I do, none of my fellow members of the Body of CHrist will want to be around me, and I won't have the benefit of fellowship and iron sharpening iron.

Can I be gay? (I'm not by the way) Sure, but I might get AIDS and die. Thus I don't fullfill my time on earth and don't get to finish whatever God wants me to do. Plus I will be looked down upon and bring reproach to the entire real Church.

Can I buy a Mercedes Benz (well, no I can't!) Well if I could, praise God! But a Ford or Chevy will get me to my job, and that extra money I spent on the Benz could've been given to the ministry.

I could go on and on.... But do you see my point? Christians... True Christians put Christ first and ask the question of their doings, "how does this effect my relationship with God?" Paul spoke of this and it's the main point behind verses like 1 Cor 6:12. Paul never denied that faith alone saves... But he also noted that you are an idiot and not really a Christian if your flesh overpowers you.

Now, James had it wrong. He was almost right, but no. Faith alone without works is enough. Faith without works is not dead faith. See, Mr. Rosenberger... I don't murder. I don't steal. I'm not gay and I don't cheat on my wife. I like beer and I do drink, but not to excess. I give to charity. The heathen can and some of them do all this too. I'm saved by grace through faith alone. Not because I do or don't do these things. James had a great message, but he was not an apostle and when he says "faith without works is dead" he's wrong. But by no means is his overall messsage wrong. He was a wise man, and said a lot of useful and prophetic things, just like Martin Luther, whom I admire. But some things were just wrong and not in line with the Bible teaching.

Let me sum it up. Yes, Christians are free to do anything they want in the flesh (they can't do wrong spiritually... They can't blasheme God or deny him or believe false doctrine). But a true Christian will understand that this freedom means they are the LORD'S free man. That means they are still the Lord's and still a prisioner of Christ. It means they will put his bidding above their own desires. It means they won't do anything to bring reproach to the Body of CHrist, because they love the brethren and they want to be left alone by the heathen. It means they will obey the laws of the land for Christ's sake as the Bible says.

I'm sure you have a rebuttal. I'm sure you have many questions, and please bring it on in the spirit of kindness and understanding. I am humble and can admit when I don't know the answer to things.... I'm just sharing my knowledge or thoughts (if you will) on what Christ means for us.

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