John Calvin and Calvinism.

Bible Highlighter said:

No. That would be Modalism. Modalism teaches that God just puts on a mode or mask to pretend to be the different persons of the Godhead or Trinity. Modalists don’t believe in any real distinction of persons in the Godhead or Trinity. I know. I talked with them both online and in person over the years.

Think of the Trinity as sort of like those paper cut-outs of a chain of people holding hands. They are connected by holding their hands and yet they are distinct in appearance as a person in shape when you look at them. Granted, I am not saying God is connected at the hands or anything but the point is to illustrated the concept is possible. God has not revealed the intricate details of what this connection looks like in the Bible plainly for all to see but we know that there is a plurality to God even in Genesis 1. Let US, make man in OUR image, and OUR likeness. So in Genesis 1: We see three statements suggesting the plurality (three persons) as a part of the existence of the one true GOD.

God is one and yet He exists also as three distinct persons. Life is full of what appears to be contradictions to us, but if properly understood, they are not contradictions at all. I understand the Trinity just fine and yet folks who reject the Trinity really do not understand what I am saying about the Trinity (in most cases).

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I have already given you may answer on this....detailed explains and a lot of scriptures why the three persons in one God formula is false.

Grailhunter’s Corner

Ronald Nolette said:

\Well thank you for putting the right cite with the right verse.

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Your welcome.

You said:

But the natural cannot please God nor can they receive the things of God!

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Right, 1 Corinthians 2:14 is true but you wrongfully read it from a Calvinist bias, friend. I don't believe you are really seeking to read 1 Corinthians 2:14 in context to what it is actually saying. In other words, the big difference between us is that when I talk about a verse with believers we are in disagreement over, I try to make time to reread the chapter (sometimes the previous chapter and later chapters) to get a refresher. For I desire to get a feel and theme for what that verse is saying in light of the big picture of the context. However, I get the impression that you are just taking this snippet out of the Bible to defend Calvinism without really reading that verse in context for yourself. You are not really reading the verse to draw out meaning (exegesis), but you are inserting meaning into the text (eisegesis). Do you ever consider that maybe you could be wrong and the Bible does not support your belief in Calvinism?

You said:

And remember sin doesn't need to be the deed as Jesus said. all we have to do is give mental consent and we are living in sin! but that list is not all encompassing as you know.

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I am not new to the Bible. Of course Jesus taught against a mind sin at the sermon on the Mount.

Matthew 5:28-30
28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.”

So Jesus is warning us that to look upon a woman in lust can make us in danger of being cast bodily into hellfire.

The apostle John says that hating your brother makes one like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him:

“Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.” (1 John 3:15).

Do you see a loophole around these sins besides not doing them?

You said:

The unsaved man is at war with God! Romans 5.

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What actual verse says that in Romans 5?

You said:

We are spiritually dead Ephesians 2.

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This is not a present reality for true faithful believers in Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 2:1, and Ephesians 2:5 both use the words “were dead” as in reference to a believer's past life of sins. But this death does not mean that we were not capable of responding on our own to God's call.

As I pointed out to you before, 2 Thessalonians 2:10 says that those who perish are perishing because they received not the love of the truth that THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. There is no MIGHT be saved in Calvinism.

You said:

this is the very reason why we have to be Born A

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Is a believer born again during their regeneration (election) by God or is the born again experience take place sometime after? Can you describe the born again experience for the believer?

You said:

But as you know th e works of the flesh are far more than just Galatians 5. even just giving mental assent to it is sin. Even the good works done by the unsaved God calls filthy rags! and as Jeremiah declared there is no soundness in man and Paul said in Romans 7 that in our flesh dwells NO GOOD THING! this is why we have to be born again. We need to be made a new Creature! God is not interested in reforming the natural man- He creates us brand new and declares the old man dead and gone!

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I believe a Christian is born again or changed spiritually when they accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. This change is practical and happens in reality. A believer will live a holy life and put away sin, and bring forth the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Calvinism is not needed for this to happen.

In Romans 7: Paul is describing his old life of sin as a Pharisee in Romans 7:14-24.
So Paul is not advocating how he can disobey God and still be saved. Read Romans 8:1, and Romans 8:13.

As for your interpretation on Isaiah 64:6:

I believe you are reading this verse out of context. Try reading the verse before it (See: Isaiah 64:5).

Do you believe a Christian can abide in sin and still be saved while doing so?

Grailhunter said:

I have already given you may answer on this....detailed explains and a lot of scriptures why the three persons in one God formula is false.

Grailhunter’s Corner

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I don't believe your website refutes anything I said here.
Besides, this is not even the topic of the thread.

Grailhunter said:

The whole New Testament gives examples of the Trinity....just not the three persons in one God formula....cherry picking scriptures.

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So what is your view of the Trinity?
Not interested in reading any links. Just tell it to me straight here.

You said:

You obvious have a distorted view of the history of all this.

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As do you. But we both cannot be right.

You said:

Since the 1600 there have been more discoveries of the scriptures....Modern Bibles are looking at more scriptures and older scriptures. Again the King James Bible is the most error ridden Bible in print.

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There was no widespread major departure from the King James Bible until the 1970s with the popularization of the NIV. Generally small groups that rejected the Bible prior to this time were liberals.

I have already addressed this. The three scriptures that mention the Godhead are not talking about the three persons in one God formula.

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Well, your just saying so does not make it so. My points still stand and you have not offered a counter explanation using the Bible, logic, etcetera.

You said:

Well I am not a liberal...

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Do you reject a Young Earth?
Do you reject a global flood?
Do you support abortion?
Do you support sodomy in some way?
Do you celebrate Halloween?

You said:

Just looking for the truth....

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You have not found the truth yet?
Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6).
God's Word is truth (John 17:17).

You said:

not a sad attempt to but together a Bible. So many errors it is hard to count.

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So you believe all bibles have holes or errors in them?
If so, how do you determine what is true or false?
Do you have a truth detector machine?

Bible Highlighter said:

I don't believe your website refutes anything I said here.
Besides, this is not even the topic of the thread.

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And I believe the same way about what you presented.
So there ya go. You have given scriptures and I have given scriptures, so we are at an impasse.

Lifelong_sinner said:

what calvin said, is what Jesus said. You have no free will to get saved. The Bible says this.
Ephesians 1:4-6
John 6:44

As for mother teresa, understand that Jesus said NO ONE is good except God. Mother teresa was a sinner the same as me and you. We ALL deserve hell. Stop thinking you are a good person.
As far as works, they dont save, but they are a sign that you have been saved. Hitler is in hell, no need to worry about that. If you are of the elect, your works will show that you are saved. if you have secret thoughts of murder, i would question your salvation to begin with. No one that is saved would ever have those kinds of thoughts to begin with due to regeneration.

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Is it worth the while to get a commentary of Calvin on the scriptures?
Blessings
J.

Bible Highlighter said:

So what is your view of the Trinity?
Not interested in reading any links. Just tell it to me straight here.

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Not going to reiterate the same thing over and over again. I tell everything straight and I am not going twist your arm to read it.

Bible Highlighter said:

There was no widespread major departure from the King James Bible until the 1970s with the popularization of the NIV. Generally small groups that rejected the Bible prior to this time were liberals.

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What does that matter? The King James Bible is full of errors and promotes false beliefs.
As far as the whole...the KJV was more confusing to a lot of people who found it hard to read.
Most of the 30,000 Protestant denominations were formed because people could interpret it so many ways.
The beliefs that many people have come from popular beliefs, traditions, songs and movies.
So many false beliefs promulgated by people thorough history, just easier to be feed your religion.

The scriptures are millenniums old and were written in ancient time periods. So many read the Bible as if it were latest edition of the local Sunday paper. The scriptures cannot be fully understood that way. At this point you have to be able to work with languages, the culture, and history of the time periods, even the history and even the evolution of the scriptures. It takes a lot of education and a lot of research.

Bible Highlighter said:

So you believe all bibles have holes or errors in them?
If so, how do you determine what is true or false?
Do you have a truth detector machine?

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Well I did not say all Bibles "have holes or errors in them." I am losing patience with you putting words in my mouth.

Grailhunter said:

Just that the Calvinists are not the first religion to blaspheme God.

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Your words here are still unclear and it really does not undo my defense against Calvinism involving 2 Thessalonians 2:10, etcetera. Are you saying that we believers should not contend for the faith and refute Calvinism with the Bible? Do you have a good biblical reason as to why this is so?

You said:

Like I said, exactly how Judgment Day is going go is a matter of opinions. Are we going to stand in for Christ as Judge? It is above our pay grade. But I would not want to be standing in front of Christ and have to explain why I believe His Father is a monstrous puppet master.

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Then why do you appear to be against me in my biblical defense against Calvinism?

You said:

You act like God does not have a specific acceptable particular meaning that He desires people to believe by reading His Word (the Bible).
One true church. That was the intent of Christ and the Apostles and the Catholic Church. As it is now, if you talk about the one true Church on earth....people will call you the Anti-Christ.

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The Bible is the truth (Note: Granted, the early church was the ground and pillar of the truth at one point in history because they were forming the Scriptures). But no church today is exactly like the early church and we are living in the last days (spiritually speaking).

You said:

But if you want, you can point to the one true denomination.....or is it yourself?

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Do you believe that Catholics, Orthodox, Mormons, Calvinists, JW's are saved?
How many were saved on board the Ark?
Granted, I am not saying I am the only one who believes in a similar way that I do.
But I believe many will not make it into God's Kingdom because they reject God's words.

Bible Highlighter said:

Your words here are still unclear and it really does not undo my defense against Calvinism involving 2 Thessalonians 2:10, etcetera. Are you saying that we believers should not contend for the faith and refute Calvinism with the Bible? Do you have a good biblical reason as to why this is so?



Then why do you appear to be against me in my biblical defense against Calvinism?



The Bible is the truth (Note: Granted, the early church was the ground and pillar of the truth at one point in history because they were forming the Scriptures). But no church today is exactly like the early church and we are living in the last days (spiritually speaking).



Do you believe that Catholics, Orthodox, Mormons, Calvinists, JW's are saved?
How many were saved on board the Ark?
Granted, I am not saying I am the only one who believes in a similar way that I do.
But I believe many will not make it into God's Kingdom because they reject God's words.

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"Intense" debate going on here...

PinSeeker said:

As Paul says to the Philippians, "He Who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Christ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

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Again this shows our part and God's part. God will never fail to do his part. That doesn't mean we can't fail him. This is a promise that God doesn't fail us, not that we can't fail. The only reason you read it that way is because of Calvinist presuppositions.

PinSeeker said:

"I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted." (Job 42:2)

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You know Job was wrong about a lot of things right?

Grailhunter said:

Not going to reiterate the same thing over and over again. I tell everything straight and I am not going twist your arm to read it.

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I am puzzled as to why you would not want to share your belief about God openly to all. Why does one have to follow a link to another part of the forums to figure it out? Anyways, I looked at it the thread link and it took a long time to get your point about your viewpoint of the Trinity. So you believe god is three separate gods and yet He exists as one Godhead?

You said, “There is not a single verse that would indicate or suggest that God the Father was crucified, or that they were crucified together, or that all three were crucified.”

Yet, 2 Corinthians 5:19 says:

“To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.” (2 Corinthians 5:19).

Anyways, your view of the Trinity is like that of Mormons? They believe in three separate gods and that they act in harmony or unison as one God sort of like how three people can act in harmony or unison. Are you Mormon?

You said:

What does that matter? The King James Bible is full of errors and promotes false beliefs.

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So Christians were deceived by the one and only English Bible between the 1600's and the late 1800's?
Okay. If that floats your boat. But that just does not sound realistic or practical or caring of God to do that to people.

You said:

As far as the whole...the KJV was more confusing to a lot of people who found it hard to read.

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I am not one of those KJB folk who will tell you the King James Bible is easy to read or understand. I believe God desires us to study to show ourselves approved unto God (2 Timothy 2:15 KJB). The disciples did not know about Jesus' death and resurrection before the cross (even when Jesus talked about such things). They were clueless. Yet, Jesus could have sat them down and used hand puppets to illustrate what was about to happen. But did He do so? No.

You said:

Most of the 30,000 Protestant denominations were formed because people could interpret it so many ways.
The beliefs that many people have come from popular beliefs, traditions, songs and movies.
So many false beliefs promulgated by people thorough history, just easier to be feed your religion.

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I am not sure this really proves your case here. False religions formed even after the truth was revealed in the early church.

You said:

The scriptures are millenniums old and were written in ancient time periods. So many read the Bible as if it were latest edition of the local Sunday paper. The scriptures cannot be fully understood that way. At this point you have to be able to work with languages, the culture, and history of the time periods, even the history and even the evolution of the scriptures. It takes a lot of education and a lot of research.

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“And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:” (1 Corinthians 2:4).

“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.” (1 John 2:27).

You said:

Well I did not say all Bibles "have holes or errors in them." I am losing patience with you putting words in my mouth.

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I was asking you a question and it was not an accusation. So which bibles don't have errors or holes in them?

Grailhunter said:

More accurately, I am saying that it is difficult for people to choose one denomination over the other 30,000.
On the other hand I have also said, keeping to the basics, you could write all a person needed on a three by five card to be saved.

That does not mean they should not read the Bible.

Is there a level of difficulty in reading and understanding the Bible....30,000 denominations prove that...all professing that they were lead by the Holy Spirit......and no one having a popup timer. Most of these denominations were started by people that read the Bible like it was the latest edition of the local Sunday paper. It take a lot more than that to understand the Bible as a whole.

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Don't you believe that God (the Holy Spirit) will guide a person into all truth?

Bible Highlighter said:

our words here are still unclear and it really does not undo my defense against Calvinism involving 2 Thessalonians 2:10, etcetera. Are you saying that we believers should not contend for the faith and refute Calvinism with the Bible? Do you have a good biblical reason as to why this is so?

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Calvinism is blasphemy against God plain a simple and so it is a heresy. I have been standing against Calvinism for the last couple years on this forum. If you read some of the old post it might make you laugh.

You probably thought I was disagreeing with you on Calvinism because the topic went to judgment of Calvinists. Judgment is one of those topics I am careful about. Christ's judgment is Christ's judgment and I am not qualified to speak for Christ. Christianity is a journey with Christ. A young Christian is not going to know it all...but there are a lot of people out there that will tell them....lead them down the wrong path. A person that is a Calvinist may not remain a Calvinist once they know the truth about Calvinism. Even in a Calvinist church the beliefs and understandings my vary because they do not tell them the truth. And again many are not prepared or educated enough to be able to dig into the details. So many false beliefs and understanding running around. Sifting through all the false beliefs that are so commonly believed takes time, effort, and education. Should people take the time? There soul could depend on it. So how important is that? In the real world....mom and dad....living in the rat race....some people do not make the time. And who do they trust to help them? Of course they trust God but who can help them understand the Bible. Starting from scratch and learning the truth takes a lot of time.

Now for the rest of this conversation. We are in a Calvinist thread talking about a lot of topics, and I do not mind that but if you want to continue you need start a different thread, maybe under Bible Study or PM me.

rockytopva said:

My Bible of choice is the King James Version... But.... I was soon to realize I needed a Strongs Exhaustive Concordance with Hebrew and Greek dictionaries to go along with that.

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I am also King James Only, but while I do use the Strong's at BlueLetterBible at times, and Modern Translations, I believe even the Strong's has certain wrong definitions. For example: There definition on repentance is not accurate in my humble opinion. Repent can have a wide variety of meanings, and the context determines its usage, but when repent is used in view of God telling man to repent, it means that we are to seek forgiveness with GOD or the Lord Jesus over our past sins or our past life of sin. John the baptist talks about bringing forth fruits worthy of repentance. Works are fruits. So the fruit is not the same thing as the tree.

rockytopva said:

My Bible of choice is the King James Version... But.... I was soon to realize I needed a Strongs Exhaustive Concordance with Hebrew and Greek dictionaries to go along with that.

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Why would you want to rely on something that faulty? Of course if you dig deep into the languages that is a big help.

Bible Highlighter said:

Don't you believe that God (the Holy Spirit) will guide a person into all truth?

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Are you saying that you are the only person that the Holy Spirit has guided to the truth? 30,000 denominations all saying they were guided by the Holy Spirit. Something is a mis somewhere.