Is Jesus God?

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Is Jesus God?


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Nathantaurus90

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Aug 10, 2012
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Likewise, you haven't answered any of my scriptures.

In 1 Corinthians chapter 15 verses 25-28, it says that Jesus, after his reign will hand the
Kingdom back to the Father;

1 Corinthians 15:25-28:

For he (Jesus) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

[sup]26 [/sup]The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
[sup]27 [/sup]For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
[sup]28 [/sup]And when all things shall be subdued unto him (Jesus), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (Almighty God Yahweh) that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

So Jesus has been given authority at the present time, but it will eventually be returned to the Father.
How can Jesus be subject to himself?

God is the head of Christ;

1 Corinthians 11:3

But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[sup][a][/sup] and the head of Christ is God.


2 Corinthians 1:3:
''Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,''

Note that it says 'The FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS.'

Jesus said to Satan in Matthew 4:10:
"Get out of here, Satan," Jesus told him. "For the Scriptures say, 'You must worship the LORD your God and serve only him.'"

This scripture wouldn't make any sense if Jesus was God in the flesh,
Jesus told Satan worship is to be directed towards almighty God.

I do believe that Jesus is put in a supreme position by Yahweh God,
for example;

Jesus is mentioned as a 'high priest'

Hebrews 4:14:
''Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.''

Jesus also stated that all authority has been given to him;

Matthew 28:18:
''Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.''

John 4:34 "My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.

John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

This next scripture reveals that JESUS DOES NOT STAND ALONE,
he is standing WITH THE FATHER, hence he is not God in the flesh,
as they are distinct individuals;

John 8:16 But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me.
 

Groundzero

Not Afraid To Stand
Jul 20, 2011
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Likewise, you haven't answered any of my scriptures.

In 1 Corinthians chapter 15 verses 25-28, it says that Jesus, after his reign will hand the
Kingdom back to the Father;

1 Corinthians 15:25-28:

For he (Jesus) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

[sup]26 [/sup]The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
[sup]27 [/sup]For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
[sup]28 [/sup]And when all things shall be subdued unto him (Jesus), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (Almighty God Yahweh) that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

So Jesus has been given authority at the present time, but it will eventually be returned to the Father.
How can Jesus be subject to himself?

God is the head of Christ;

1 Corinthians 11:3

But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[sup][a][/sup] and the head of Christ is God.


2 Corinthians 1:3:
''Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,''

Note that it says 'The FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS.'

Jesus said to Satan in Matthew 4:10:
"Get out of here, Satan," Jesus told him. "For the Scriptures say, 'You must worship the LORD your God and serve only him.'"

This scripture wouldn't make any sense if Jesus was God in the flesh,
Jesus told Satan worship is to be directed towards almighty God.

I do believe that Jesus is put in a supreme position by Yahweh God,
for example;

Jesus is mentioned as a 'high priest'

Hebrews 4:14:
''Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.''

Jesus also stated that all authority has been given to him;

Matthew 28:18:
''Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.''

John 4:34 "My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.

John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

This next scripture reveals that JESUS DOES NOT STAND ALONE,
he is standing WITH THE FATHER, hence he is not God in the flesh,
as they are distinct individuals;

John 8:16 But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me.

Wow. I've had many people give me tongue in cheek comments, and this one just soared towards the top. I explained ur verses point by point. And I'll do it again. Your quotes are in red.


In 1 Corinthians chapter 15 verses 25-28, it says that Jesus, after his reign will hand the
Kingdom back to the Father;

1 Corinthians 15:25-28:

For he (Jesus) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

[sup]26 [/sup]The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
[sup]27 [/sup]For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
[sup]28 [/sup]And when all things shall be subdued unto him (Jesus), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (Almighty God Yahweh) that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

So Jesus has been given authority at the present time, but it will eventually be returned to the Father.
How can Jesus be subject to himself?


Yes, Jesus is the Son. But yes, Jesus is ALSO the Father. The cruncher is this: the SON is NOT God. The Son is the humanity of Jesus. It's his human nature. It's what made him a man. That is why he speaks as a prophet, yet at times he spoke as God. Because Jesus wasn't just an ordinary man like me, and he wasn't just the supreme deity of eternity. He was BOTH! You will notice in this verse, that it says the SON will be SUBJECT to the FATHER. The HUMANITY of Jesus will FOREVER be subject to his DIVINITY. Jesus had a dual nature. Man and God.


God is the head of Christ;

1 Corinthians 11:3

But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,
[sup][a][/sup] and the head of Christ is God.


Once again, Christ is the anointed one, the Messiah. God in a body of flesh. Christ is merely the human body through which God expressed himself to the world. Of course God is the head of that body!

2 Corinthians 1:3:
''Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,''

Note that it says 'The FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS.'


Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
You no doubt know about John 3:16. God gave his Son. Well, according to Paul, Jesus gave HIMSELF. Therefore, there is one logical conclusion: Jesus is God. Through a miraculous conception in the womb of the virgin Mary, God fused himself into a body of humanity in order to save us. THAT is the great mystery of salvation.
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Jesus said to Satan in Matthew 4:10:
"Get out of here, Satan," Jesus told him. "For the Scriptures say, 'You must worship the LORD your God and serve only him.'"

This scripture wouldn't make any sense if Jesus was God in the flesh,
Jesus told Satan worship is to be directed towards almighty God.


It makes perfect sense if we believe that Jesus had dual natures and therefore spoke as a man sent from God, but also spoke as the very God that created all things.


I do believe that Jesus is put in a supreme position by Yahweh God,
for example;

Jesus is mentioned as a 'high priest'

Hebrews 4:14:
''Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.''

Jesus also stated that all authority has been given to him;

Matthew 28:18:
''Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.''


John 4:34 "My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.

John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

This next scripture reveals that JESUS DOES NOT STAND ALONE,
he is standing WITH THE FATHER, hence he is not God in the flesh,
as they are distinct individuals;


John 8:16 But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me.

Once again, every one of the verses that you are tripping over are to do with Jesus' human nature. Jesus had TWO natures: man and Almighty God.

Now it's your turn:
Isa_9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

I think we both agree that this verse is about Jesus. Now tell me, if Jesus is NOT God, how is it that Isaiah gave him the titles of the mighty God and the EVERLASTING FATHER/ Father of Eternity?


1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
This is one of my favorite verses. According to Paul, Jesus ALONE was the ruler. Jesus is the ONLY one who can live forever.


Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Jesus, in his revelation to John, declares himself to be the BEGINNING and the ENDING. You know, if something is the beginning, it means there was NOTHING before it. So if Jesus wasn't God, then he just took one big step out of his place. And that's not it. John gives Jesus a title which clinches the matter: the Almighty. In the eyes of John, the Lord Jesus was the Almighty. That meant he had ALL power. No one could compare to him.

Any doctrine MUST line up COMPLETELY with Scripture. The view that Jesus is part of the Trinity doesn't line up. The view that Jesus is ONLY a man doesn't line up either. The Bible is clear that Jesus was both man and SUPREME deity. And that is what we should be preaching to the world. There is ONE way: Jesus. There is ONE answer: Jesus. That's all there is to it: Jesus.
 

Nathantaurus90

New Member
Aug 10, 2012
18
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0
Hove, England
Wow, you really do have a chip on your shoulder don't you? You posted to me first about not replying.
Where does it say in the bible about 'christ not knowing he was God?'

They are clearly separate beings,

as Jesus stated that he IS RETURNING TO HIS GOD!

John 20:17:
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Where does it say in the bible that there are three gods?

Where does it say in the bible that Jesus had a 'dual nature of a multiple Gods/deities?

The idea of the Trinity is not one that is found in the Bible. Far from being part of the same being, God and Christ are quite separate. Consider the following verse, 1 Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus". A mediator is a go-between. For Christ to mediate between God and men he must be separate from God, just as he is separate from the individual people he mediates for; if Christ was part of God then this verse would be nonsense.

1 Corinthians 8:6 also speaks plainly of God and Christ as separate: "But to us there is but one God, the Father, ... and one Lord Jesus Christ". If God the Father and Christ were part of the one being, why would these words have been written? If they were part of the Trinity, why is there no reference to the Holy Spirit here? The only reasonable answer is that God, the Father is a totally separate being from Jesus Christ.

There are two passages from the New Testament that are often used to prove the Trinity, John 1 and Luke 1:35. In reality, both of these show that the Trinity does not exist.

John 1:18 plainly states that "No man hath seen God at any time". It does not say " No man hath seen God the Father" at any time, but that no man has seen GOD at any time. It is obvious from the Gospels that people saw Jesus: therefore Jesus cannot be God, or any part of God. The verse goes on to say "the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." Some other translations of this passage, which are based on other Greek manuscripts, have "the only begotten God" where the KJV has "only begotten Son". The Greek words for 'son' and 'god' in this context are very similar, and it seems likely that 'son' becoming 'god' was a simple slip of the pen when the early manuscripts were copied. The phrase 'only begotten God' is also at odds with the doctrine of the Trinity. Something that is begotten has a definite beginning and a cornerstone of the Trinity is that 'God the Son' has always existed.

"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." (Luke 1:35) Let us suppose that this passage does speak of the Trinity. It would seem then that the Holy Spirit is the Father of Christ, which would give a trinity of "God the Father & Holy Spirit, God the Son, and God the Redundant"! The more logical interpretation of this passage is that the Holy Spirit is simply the power of God.

Christ stands out in the Bible as being a sinless individual; this is a truly great achievement for a man. Sin is simply acting contrary to the will of God - therefore for Christ's sinlessness to be an achievement he must not be part of God.

Your argument is not convincing, on all the scriptures you just state
'christ did not know his dual nature' 'he didn't know he was god then'




The apostle Paul was a servant to Christ and God;

Titus 1:1:
''Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the knowledge
of the truth that leads to godliness--''

During the Transfiguration of Jesus, God directly spoke and announced
that he was pleased with Jesus and to listen to him. So how can God be in Jesus's
body if God spoke from the Heaven?

Matthew 17:1-9:
''After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.
There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.
Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”

While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said,

“This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

Another passage about witnessing of Jesus' transfiguration,
note that it says he 'received glory' from the Father;

2 Peter 1:16-18:
''For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power,
but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory,
saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”We ourselves heard this voice that
came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.''

John 14:10:
''Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather,
it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.''

John 17:11:
''I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you.
Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.''

Jesus prayed to God, not himself;

Luke 22:41:
''He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed,''

Jesus is mentioned as God's servant in Acts;

Acts 4:30:
''Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus."

Acts 3:13:
''The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.
You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go.''

Jesus indicated his Father's superiority when he said;

Luke 4:18:
''The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed,''

Jesus also said: "Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit." (Luke 23:46)
If Jesus were God, for what reason should he entrust his spirit to the Father?

After Jesus died, he was in the tomb for parts of three days. If he were God, then
Habakkuk 1:12 is wrong when it says: "O my God, my Holy One, you do not die."

But the Bible says that Jesus did die and was unconscious in the tomb. And who resurrected Jesus from the dead?
If he was truly dead, he could not have resurrected himself. On the other hand, if he was not really dead, his pretended death
would not have paid the ransom price for Adam's sin. But he did pay that price in full by his genuine death.

So it was "God who resurrected Jesus by loosing the pangs of death." (Acts 2:24)
The superior, God Almighty, raised the lesser, his servant Jesus, from the dead.

Paul wrote that Jesus was exhalted, if he was God, why would he need to
be exhalted to a higher position?

Philippians 2:9:
''Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,''

Paul also said that Christ entered "heaven itself, so that he could appear in the
actual presence of God on our behalf." (Hebrews 9:24,)

If you appear in someone else's presence,
how can you be that person? You cannot. You must be different and separate.

2 John 1:9:
''Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.''

2 Corinthians 1:3:
''Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,''

God prepared Jesus for Earth;

Hebrews 10:5:
''Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;''

Jehovah has given Jesus the authority to judge;

John 5:22:
''Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,''

A man named Simeon was told that he would see Jehovah's Messiah, so
they are distinct individuals;

Luke 2:25-26:
''Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him.

And it was told him by The Spirit of Holiness that he would not see death until he would see The Messiah of THE LORD JEHOVAH.''

Luke 2:22:
''After the days required by Moses' Teachings to make a mother clean had passed, Joseph and Mary went to Jerusalem.
They took Jesus to present him to the Lord.''

Acts 5:29-32:
''Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings!
The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead —whom you killed by hanging him on a cross.

God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.''

1 Thessalonians 4:14:
''We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.''

John 6:40:
''For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

I probably won't reply to any more posts, you obviuosly have a personal problem with others not believing in
the Trinity.

Your argument consists of 'dual nature' babble, I have never read a scripture where Jesus says he
is of 'dual nature' as you say.

Where does it say in the bible that there are three gods?

The old testemant repeatedly claims that God almighy is alone, not
part of a triad of unities;

Isaiah 44:6:
''Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God.''

We must go through Yahweh's son Jesus in order to get to him, as Jesus stated
in John 14:6;

'' Jesus answered 'I am the way, the truth and the life. Nobody comes through the Father except through me.''
  • Looking at the context of the entire gospel of John, Jesus consistently draws a separation between himself and God. He refers to God as "Father" and shows that he is subordinate to the Father (John 14:28) and was sent at his Father's direction (John 3:16; 17:3).
  • Looking at the context of all four gospels, Jesus again consistently shows that he is does not believe himself to be God. For example, Luke 22:42 Christ prays in the Garden for, not his will to be done, but the Father's. Mark 15:34, he cries out "My God, my God, what have you forsaken me?" Matthew 28:18, Jesus tells his disciples that authority had been given him in heaven and on earth. If Jesus knew he was God, none of these would make sense.
Looking at the context of the New Testament, the early Christians did not believe Jesus to be God. The most prolific writer, the Apostle Paul, consistently writes about Jesus as the Son of God ... not God himself. For example, 1 Corinthians 15:24: "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." (KJV) - in other words Christ hands over the Kingdom to God the Father, a transaction between two separate people. At Colossians 1:15, Paul refers to Christ as the first-born of all creation. This harmonizes with the concept of Christ Jesus (the Son of God) and God the Father.

[background=rgb(243,243,243)]An Examination of Isaiah 9:6[/background]



Let us first of all consider the fact that the opening phrase of Isaiah 9:6 states:

“For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given…”

Please ask yourself the following question:

“Since the verse says ‘a Son is given,’ who did the giving?”

Someone did the giving, and someone was given. Although this is easily overlooked, it is very revealing and sets the tone for the remainder of the verse.

[background=rgb(243,243,243)]One of the most common verses that are brought up by Christians to prove that JESUS is GOD or in other words they try to prove that Jesus is His Own Father, by saying that HE (JESUS) IS THE ONE AND ONLY WISE GOD is that of Isaiah 9:6. In fact this verse is supposedly one of the strongest evidences that Jesus is God.[/background]

[background=rgb(243,243,243)]So with that said let us see what Isaiah 9:6 says:[/background]

[background=rgb(243,243,243)][sup]6 [/sup]For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor,The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. [/background]

In the ensuing list of epithets given to the Son, we do not run into a perceived problem until we reach “The mighty El.” Therefore, let us address this.

Being called El or Elohim (or mighty) is not limited to Yahweh in Scripture. For example, see Psalm 82, esp. v 6, where it is used in reference to judges. Thus, we see that elohim can be used of people who are in mighty positions of authority, but that doesn’t make them the Almighty. Yahshua too, can be considered a mighty one, an El.

In the end, Isaiah 9:6 can be taken in harmony with the rest of the overwhelming* amount of verses proving that Yahweh is the Almighty and Yahshua is His Son. There is harmony here, but we have to be willing to lay down the pre-conceived notions that the Son is a second person in what is commonly called a “triune Godhead” or that He is the Father in a different mode (i.e., the Oneness doctrine).

[background=rgb(243,243,243)]So here we see a prophecy being made about the Messiah, the Messiah that is to come for the Israelite people. Now the Christian contends that Jesus is God because the Messiah is called the mighty God, hence that must mean he is God.[/background]

[background=rgb(243,243,243)]At face value it might seem that the Messiah is indeed called God, yet a careful examination of the verse shows that the text does NOT refer to Jesus as God. Rather when we do analyse the text, we find that the text has been mistranslated by the Trinitarians, something very common.[/background]

[background=rgb(243,243,243)]As we all know Isaiah was an Israelite prophet, and the book of Isaiah was written in Hebrew, therefore we should go to the Hebrew and see what the actual term of mighty God is in the Hebrew language.[/background]

[background=rgb(243,243,243)]When we do consult the Hebrew language we find that in Hebrew the term mighty God is as follow:[/background]

[background=rgb(243,243,243)]No Jew ever believed that the Messiah would be God, and no where in the context of Isaiah chapter 9 is such a doctrine taught. The context of Isaiah 9 is about the Messiah and what he will do, as the ministry of the Gospel:[/background]

[background=rgb(243,243,243)]The context illuminates great truth about the verse, and also shows that there is no justification for believing that it refers to the Trinity, but rather to God's appointed ruler. The opening verse of the chapter foretells a time when "there will be no more gloom for those in distress." All war and death will cease, and "every warrior's boot.will be destined for burning" (v. 5). How will this come to pass? The chapter goes on: "for to us a child is born and to us a son is given" (v. 6). There is no hint that this child will be "God," and reputable Trinitarian scholars will assert that the Jews of the Old Testament knew nothing of an "incarnation." For them, the Messiah was going to be a man anointed by God. He would start as a child, which of course Yahweh, their eternal God, could never be. And what a great ruler this man would grow to be: "the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty Hero, Father of the Coming Age, Prince of Peace." Furthermore, "he will reign on David's throne (v. 7), which could never be said of God. God could never sit on David's throne. But God's Messiah, "the Son of David," could (Matt. 9:27, et al). Thus, a study of the verse in its context reveals that it does not refer to the Trinity at all, but to the Messiah, the son of David and the Son of God.[/background]

[background=rgb(243,243,243)]So therefore a more accurate translation of Isaiah 9:6 should call the Messiah a mighty hero, or the mighty Son of God and the Son of David (man), or a mighty god, god with a small g, which means a righteous servant or a mighty prophet. The Trinitarians have NO BASIS in translating ?el Gibbor as mighty GOD with a capital G.[/background]

[background=rgb(243,243,243)]So in conclusion Isaiah 9:6 proves nothing for a Trinitarian who believes in the divinity of Jesus. In fact I would say that Isaiah 9:6 is one of the WEAKEST arguments and position a Trinitarian can rely on.[/background]

[background=rgb(243,243,243)]Make no mistake, JESUS is DIVINE, but He is NOT His Father and GOD. Jesus is truly and literally the Son of God. Jesus was TWICE BORN, once in Heaven of the Spirit, prior to being born in the flesh in Bethlehem.[/background]





Conclusion

Isaiah 9:6 is wrapped up with the final epithet assigned unto this Son. He is also called “Prince of Peace.” This is yet another piece of evidence within this very verse that the Son is not the Father. A prince is the son of a Father.

Cp Acts 5:31 (Peter speaking)
Him [i.e., Yahshua] Yahweh has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

In the end, Isaiah 9:6 can be taken in harmony with the rest of the overwhelming* amount of verses proving that Yahweh is the Almighty and Yahshua is His Son. There is harmony here, but we have to be willing to lay down the pre-conceived notions that the Son is a second person in what is commonly called a “triune Godhead” or that He is the Father in a different mode (i.e., the Oneness doctrine).


[color=000000][color=660099]"Hear O Israel, YHVH is G-d, YHVH is ONE." (Deut 6:4) [/color] [/color]

[color=000000]Trinitarian Problem With Father Of Yeshua [/color]

[color=000000][color=660099]"Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." Matthew 1:20 [/color][/color]
[color=000000]Who's the Father? The Father or the Ruach (Holy Spirit)? Are there *two* Fathers in the Trinity? [/color]

in prayer.
Some argue Yeshua prayed as an example for us, and not for Himself. It's true His prayers do teach us about the nature of Messiah and of G-d. But I cannot limit Yeshua's prayers as merely exemplary forms (as in The L-rd's Prayer in Matthew 6:9) since some of His prayers were prayed without an audience (as in the garden, Matthew 26:37-45).
[color="660099"]"ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI" - "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" [/color]
Why did Jesus cry out to Himself on the cross?


Matthew 27:46

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,[sup][a][/sup] lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).[sup][b][/sup]


[color="000000"][color="660099"]"And the YHVH shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one YHVH, and his name one." Zechariah 14:9 [/color][/color]

[color="000000"][color="660099"]To humans, jesus was like a god, as he performed many miracles.[/color][/color] but there
is a higher authority


[color="000000"][color="660099"]"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: .... And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he." Mark 12:29, 32 [/color][/color]
[color="000000"][color="660099"]"Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith." Romans 3:30 [/color][/color]
[color="000000"][color="660099"]" One God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all." Ephesians 4:6 [/color][/color]
[color="000000"][color="660099"]"For there is one God and one peacemaker between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," 1 Timothy 2:5 [/color][/color]
[color="000000"][color="660099"]"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." 1 Corinthians 8:6 [/color][/color]
[color="000000"][color="660099"]"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." James 2:19 [/color][/color]

[color="000000"]Don't trinitarians find it odd that not once does Scripture state: "There is one G-d consisting of three persons."? G-d is one and the trinity doctrine is in conflict with Scripture. [/color]

The Jewish view of the Trinity;

IN SHORT... Jews do not believe in a trinity. The Jewish idea of Gd is that Gd is One and Indivisible. Gd cannot be divided up into separate parts, where each part is unequal to each of the other parts, yet somehow they are one and the same. The Hebrew Scriptures describe Gd as an absolute One, but the Christian Scriptures describe Gd as divisible into three parts called a trinity. In the Christians' scriptures, Jesus at one point claims to have different knowledge than other parts of the Christian trinity. For example, Matthew 24:36, or Mark 13:32. In another verse, Jesus does not have the same power as other parts of the Christian trinity, for example, Luke 23:34. And in Matthew 26:42, Jesus' will is not the same as the will of the Father. Indeed, Jesus often contrasted himself with the Father, for example, in John 14:28, or Luke 18:19. Furthermore, Jesus supposedly said that the punishment for blaspheming against one part of the trinity is not the same punishment for blaspheming against another part of the trinity. In the Hebrew Scriptures, however, Gd is One, as we read in Deuteronomy 6:4, as well as in Isaiah 44:6, where Gd tells us, 'I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no Gd.' When Isaiah tells us that Gd said, 'I am the first,' it means that Gd has no father. When Isaiah tells us that Gd said, 'I am the last,' it means that Gd has no literal son, a divine piece of Gd. And when Isaiah tells us that Gd said, 'Besides me there is no Gd,' it means that Gd does not share being Gd with any other Gd, or demi-Gd, or semi-Gd, or persons, and there is no trinity.


In this verse, Jesus does not have the same power as other parts of the Christian trinity, for example, Luke 23:34, where he must ask the part which is called the Father to forgive, instead of doing it himself:
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. [Luke 23:34]

And in Matthew 26:42 or Mark 14:36, Jesus' will is not the same as the will of the Father.
He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. [Matthew 26:42]
And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt. [Mark 14:36]

Indeed, Jesus often contrasted himself with the Father or with Gd, for example, in John 14:28, or Luke 18:18-19:
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. [John 14:28]
And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, Gd. [Luke 18:18-19]


And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. [Matthew 12:32]
The parts of the trinity cannot be one and the same. They are separate, they have different strengths, different powers, different wills, different knowledge from each other, therefore the concept of the trinity is not monotheistic.


Why did the Christian community stop at the three of the trinity, when they could have also had more persons in the supposed compound unity of Gd? The reason is that the highest deities in the other religions of the area also came in threes:
Babylon had: [1] Anu [2] Bel and [3] Ena;
Egypt had: [1] Osiris [2] Horus and [3] Isis
India had: [1] Brahma [2] Vishnu and [3] Shiva;
Rome had: [1] Jupiter [2] Pluto and [3] Neptune;
Greece had: [1] Zeus [2] Hades and [3] Poseidon;


When Isaiah tells us that Gd said, I am the first,' it means that Gd has no father. If Gd had a father, Isaiah would have quoted Gd's word as, 'I am the second.' When Isaiah tells us that Gd said, 'I am the last,' it means that Gd has no literal son. If Gd had a son, Isaiah would have told us that Gd said, 'I am the second-to-last.' And when Isaiah tells us that Gd said, 'Besides me there is no Gd,' it means that Gd does not share being Gd with any other Gd, or demi-Gd, or semi-Gd, or persons. If Gd shared or would later share Gd's Gd-ness with Jesus, Isaiah would have told us that Gd's words were, 'Besides me and the son that will come after me, there is no Gd.'
This is why Gd told us in the Ten Commandments, in Exodus 20:3, 'Thou shalt have no other gods before me.' Even if you think they are gods, you cannot have them before Gd. You do not pray to them in order to get to Gd, and you do not pray in their names. Their sorrows shall be multiplied that hasten after another god: their drink offerings of blood will I not offer, nor take up their names into my lips. [Psalm 16:4]

Christians may tell us, 'Behold Your Gd,' but the last time we heard something similar was in Exodus 32:4, when the ex-slaves pointed to the Golden Calf and said, 'Eileh elohecha -- these are your gods.'

I'm going to do more research on the Jews argument against 'three god's in one' belief, very interesting.

1) Mistranslation of the text John 1:1
In the "original" Greek manuscripts (Did the disciple John speak Greek?), "The Word" is only described as being "ton theos"(divine/a god) and not as being "ho theos" (The Divine/The God). A more faithful and correct translation of this verse would thus read: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was divine" (If you read the New World Translation of the Bible you will find exactly this wording).
Similarly, in "The New Testament, An American Translation" this verse is honestly presented as
"In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine."
The New Testament, An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173
And again in the dictionary of the Bible, under the heading of "God" we read
"Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated 'the word was with the God [=the Father], and the word was a divine being.'"

2) Basic message of John:
Now that we have seen the correct translation of the verse of John 1:1, let us go a little further in our study of the intended meaning of this verse. This verse was taken from the "Gospel of John." The very best person to ask to explain what is meant by a given statement is the author of that statement himself. So let us ask "John" what is his mental picture of God and Jesus (pbuh) which he wishes to convey to us:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him."
John 13:16.
So the author of John tells us that God is greater than Jesus. If the author of this Gospel did indeed wish us to understand that Jesus and God are "one and the same," then can someone be greater than himself? Similarly,
"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."


John 17:1.
If John meant to tell us that "Jesus and God are one and the same" then shall we understand from this verse that God is saying to Himself "Self, glorify me so that I may glorify myself"? Does this sound like this is the message of John?
"While I (Jesus) was with them in the world, I kept them in thy (God's) name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."
John 17:12.
If the author of John wanted us to believe that Jesus and God are one person then are we to understand from this verse that God is saying to Himself "Self, while I was in the world I kept them in your name, self. Those who I gave to myself I have kept ..."? Is this what the author intended us to understand from his writings?
"Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."


John 17:24.
Similarly, did the author intend us to interpret this as "Self, I will that they also whom I have given myself be with me where I am; that they my behold my glory which I have given myself, for I loved myself before the foundation of the world"?
So, we begin to see that in order to understand the writings of a given author, it is necessary to not take a single quotation from him in a vacuum and then interpret his whole message based upon that one sentence (and a badly mistranslated version of that sentence at that).
 

Groundzero

Not Afraid To Stand
Jul 20, 2011
819
35
0
29
Australia
Wow. If you go to post #466, you'll find in red, i believe, answers that are probably just about identical to the ones I gave you, since all your scriptural support is coming from one theme: the humanity of Jesus Christ.

I don't know why you keep going on about the Trinity. I don't believe in the Trinity. I don't believe that one should rob Jesus of his true identity: that is the One and only Almighty God.

Me have a chip on my shoulder? For all those who read this, please, apparently I stated, "christ did not know his dual nature". Look back and read what I wrote carefully. I never stated that Jesus didn't know. Far from it, Jesus was the author!
You said that Jesus did a remarkable achievement, that is, being sinless. If Jesus truly was sinless, it's because he was MORE than just a man, because ALL have sinned and fallen short.


Now I quote verbatim with my comments in red:
"Please ask yourself the following question:

“Since the verse says ‘a Son is given,’ who did the giving?”

Sure, the Father did. But Paul declared that Jesus GAVE HIMSELF. Either Jesus is the Father, or we've got some serious issues. (Tit 2:14 )

Someone did the giving, and someone was given. Although this is easily overlooked, it is very revealing and sets the tone for the remainder of the verse.

[background=rgb(243, 243, 243)]One of the most common verses that are brought up by Christians to prove that JESUS is GOD or in other words they try to prove that Jesus is His Own Father, by saying that HE (JESUS) IS THE ONE AND ONLY WISE GOD is that of Isaiah 9:6. In fact this verse is supposedly one of the strongest evidences that Jesus is God.[/background]

[background=rgb(243, 243, 243)]So with that said let us see what Isaiah 9:6 says:[/background]

[background=rgb(243, 243, 243)][sup]6 [/sup]For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor,The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. [/background]

In the ensuing list of epithets given to the Son, we do not run into a perceived problem until we reach “The mighty El.” Therefore, let us address this.

Being called El or Elohim (or mighty) is not limited to Yahweh in Scripture. For example, see Psalm 82, esp. v 6, where it is used in reference to judges. Thus, we see that elohim can be used of people who are in mighty positions of authority, but that doesn’t make them the Almighty. Yahshua too, can be considered a mighty one, an El.

In the end, Isaiah 9:6 can be taken in harmony with the rest of the overwhelming* amount of verses proving that Yahweh is the Almighty and Yahshua is His Son. There is harmony here, but we have to be willing to lay down the pre-conceived notions that the Son is a second person in what is commonly called a “triune Godhead” or that He is the Father in a different mode (i.e., the Onenessdoctrine)."

Can we have an explanation for the following statement? Or better still, some actual Scriptural support?

[background=rgb(243, 243, 243)] Jesus was TWICE BORN, once in Heaven of the Spirit, prior to being born in the flesh in Bethlehem.[/background]

Can we have an explanation for the following statement? Or better still, some actual Scriptural support?

"So how can God be in Jesus's
body if God spoke from the Heaven?"
So you're telling me that the omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God cannot make voices come from all different directions?! Ouch. I always thought that God could do ANYTHING. Apparently not.


"I probably won't reply to any more posts, you obviuosly have a personal problem with others not believing in
the Trinity.
Your argument consists of 'dual nature' babble, I have never read a scripture where Jesus says he
is of 'dual nature' as you say.
Where does it say in the bible that there are three gods?
The old testemant repeatedly claims that God almighy is alone, not
part of a triad of unities;"

I'll probably beat you to it. You know, I don't think you read very much do you? Because if you did, you would perhaps realise that I do NOT believe in the Trinity. I've explained, again and again, what the dual nature means. I think it's rather evident, but you have closed your ears and fire back all this nonsense that I never wrote, stated, or have had anything to do with.

"But the Bible says that Jesus did die and was unconscious in the tomb. And who resurrected Jesus from the dead?
If he was truly dead, he could not have resurrected himself. On the other hand, if he was not really dead, his pretended death
would not have paid the ransom price for Adam's sin. But he did pay that price in full by his genuine death."

You obviously don't study with an open mind. Listen to the words of Jesus and may they sink in.
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.


You know, it's ridiculously late where I am. So I really couldn't be bothered writing more. You didn't answer 1 timothy 6:14-16 or Rev 1:8.
In fact, the best you could do was make false statements about what I said, ignore facts that I have previously stated emphatically, and then babble on about those unnecessary facts. You can rattle on about all this anti-Trinity stuff, it doesn't really matter, because I don't believe in it anyway. It would be nice if we stayed right on topic, but that's probably too risky as it might expose some weak points.
Btw, in your little exposition about God being the first and the last, if you read Rev 1:8, I think you may have wanted to refrain from such a comment: let me repost it for your benefit:
"When Isaiah tells us that Gd said, I am the first,' it means that Gd has no father. If Gd had a father, Isaiah would have quoted Gd's word as, 'I am the second.' When Isaiah tells us that Gd said, 'I am the last,' it means that Gd has no literal son. If Gd had a son, Isaiah would have told us that Gd said, 'I am the second-to-last.' And when Isaiah tells us that Gd said, 'Besides me there is no Gd,' it means that Gd does not share being Gd with any other Gd, or demi-Gd, or semi-Gd, or persons. If Gd shared or would later share Gd's Gd-ness with Jesus, Isaiah would have told us that Gd's words were, 'Besides me and the son that will come after me, there is no Gd.'"
Now take this together with Rev, and Jesus statement that HE is the Beginning and the Ending (twice he says it mind you), we are forced to the conclusion that either Jesus is the One true God, or we've got some serious problems in the book of Revelations (which in turn will affect the whole Bible.)
So now I let my drooping eyes rest. Now doubt I've went everywhere, but then, when faced with such a ridiculously long post which winds about all these unnecessary and side topics, I'm really too tired to try and sort it all out.
 

Nathantaurus90

New Member
Aug 10, 2012
18
0
0
Hove, England
Ephesians 1:1-14

New International Version (NIV)
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To God’s holy people in Ephesus,[sup][a][/sup] the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ.''

John 20:17:
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

You didn't answer many of the scriptures I posted either.
However I think I will leave things as I sense things are
getting a bit 'heated' to say the least. As for the 'exposing weaknesses'
jibe, that did make me chuckle.


I think in this case we will have to just agree to disagree,
I don't want an argument regarding the bible etc.

I agree that we've all fallen short through sin;


Romans 5:12

Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ

[sup]''[/sup]Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned''

The bible does allow for differeing views, so I will leave the post
with this last scripture;

Romans 14:3:
''The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.

Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.''

To be honest, I do think people can have different beliefs etc, I
now think the main point is to be a good Christian;

James 1:27Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.''

Psalm 34:14 Turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it.''
Ephesians 1:3:

''[sup] [/sup]Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms.''


John 17:3

[sup]''[/sup]Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. ''



Psalm 110:1:
''{Psalm of David.} Jehovah said unto my Lord (Jesus), Sit at my right hand, until I put thine enemies as footstool of thy feet.

P.S, I did not have anything personal against you, I felt you had a problem with me. I don't have anything against anyone.

Just read policy on this site, very true;

Cool it! Christ himself told us that he came to divide (Luke 12:51) because Christianity is such and important and powerful issue. Most all of us want to ultimately do what is right. Keep that in mind and if a topic or person makes you mad, step away from the computer for a bit and pray. Cool down before you post a reply or rebuttal.
 

Groundzero

Not Afraid To Stand
Jul 20, 2011
819
35
0
29
Australia
Lolz. I posted three verses. You could only be bothered to reply to one. You posted well over ten, all to do with the exact same principle. Why should I keep repeating the same thing? I stated it clearly, that all those verses have the same issue, therefore, the same answer.
No, I don't have any issue with you. I do have an issue though when you start giving 'quotes' that I apparently said which cannot be found. If you really did have an open mind, you would be reading what I wrote. The fact that you keep talking as if I believe in a triune godhead shows that you don't, because I have stated numerous times, that I don't believe in a Trinity.
I hardly think Christ meant a division within his church when he said that.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Doesn't matter if we want to ultimately do what is right, if we don't do it, we're heading downwards not upwards. Almost right is always wrong.
 

Nathantaurus90

New Member
Aug 10, 2012
18
0
0
Hove, England
You're last statement has got me confused. Are you saying we shouldn't bother
to do what's right?

I posted many scriptures (which you ignored and avoided).

Why should I keep repeating myself?

John 6:40:
''For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.''

Ephesians 1:3:''Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.''

2 Corinthians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,

Ephesians 1:20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,

The early Christians believed Jesus wasn't God.

I couldn't be bothered to reply to your posts, they all consist of the same avoidance.

Matthew 26:64 "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Mark 14:62 "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Hebrews 1:1:
''In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.''

Hebrews 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.''

John 5:30:''By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.''

Luke 1:31-32:
''You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus.

He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,''

John 14:24:
''He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.''

1 Corinthians 8:6:
''yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord,
Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.''



John 14:6

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. ''

1 Timothy 2:5:
''For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,''

As for the 'open mind' comment, you would do well to take your own advice.

God of gods
The word god bears the meaning of one who is mighty or powerful. And so Jesus Christ is a god; the devil too is a god and St. Paul referred to him as "the god of this world". (2nd Corinthians 4: 3, 4) Rulers and judges, especially those who rule and administer justice in the fear of God and by reason of the powers vested in them, are gods. And because of the respect they deserve the divine law say, "Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people."-Exodus 22: 28.
All other gods, including Jesus Christ, who are the creatures of the Most High, are subject to Him (the Father). In Psalm 82: 1, 6 it is written: "GOD standeth in the congregation of the mighty; He judgeth among the gods. I have said, ye are gods; and all of you are children of the Most High."
For the fact that the Creator is supreme He is known as the "God of gods, and Lord of lords." (Deuteronomy 10: 17) And the Psalmist declared: "For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods." (Psalm 95: 3) If there is only one God or if gods are not many as the clergy teach, why the foregoing divine statements by the prophets of God?
There is nothing wrong therefore to say that Jesus Christ is god as there are also other gods. But the point is that Jesus Christ is a different or separate entity from the person of God the Father.
Those who say that Jesus Christ and the Father exist co-eternally are very wrong indeed. The Bible shows vividly that Jesus Christ derived life from or was created by the Father. It is only the Almighty God, the Father, Who is self-existent as signified by His name JEHOVAH. Concerning Him the Psalmist declared, "Even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God." - Psalm 90: 2.

God the almighty is not subject to death-He is immortal. And so He could not be the one who came to the earth in the form of man and was betrayed and killed by wicked men. Of Him (God) it is written: "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto, whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to Whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen." - 1st Timothy 6: 16.
It was the Word the Son of God who was incarnated as the angel Gabriel told Mary: "The power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called Son of God".
As a result of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ in his earthly mission God the Father has highly exalted him far above all the angels (Philippians 2: 9-11; Hebrews 1: 1-8) and rewarded him with immortality by which he has power over death and hell or grave. And he (Jesus) declared: "I an he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death" - Revelation 1: 18.

The Word
Jesus Christ was created before all other things and thus has the unique honour of being the BEGINNING of the creation of the Almighty God. (Revelation 3: 14) In fact it was through him other perfect things, both visible and invisible, were created. But it is a pity that this vital truth revealed in the Scriptures still remains a mystery to many who claim to be Christians.
When God said, "Let us make man in our own image" He was talking to the Word (Jesus Christ) through whose instrumentality man and other things were created. And Jesus Christ spike through King Solomon in spirit thus: "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. While as yet He had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there, Then I was by him, as one brought up with Him: and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him. " - Proverbs 8: 22-30.
In John 1: 1, it is written: "In the beginning was the word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God," God Almighty has no beginning, and so the "beginning" in this text means when the Word or Logos (Greek) who is God the Son was created or brought into existence. If God Almighty and Jesus Christ the Word are one and the same God or Person, it will not make sense to say that "The Word was with God".
It was the Word and NOT God Almighty who came to the world in the flesh and was called Jesus Christ. As it is written: "and the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."-John 1: 14.
After the creation of Jesus Christ, God the Almighty Father made him His creative agent and so made other perfect things through him. Thus it is stated: "All things were made by him; and without him (Jesus Christ) was not any thing made that was made." - John 1: 3.

That God created other things through Jesus Christ was confirmed by St. Paul in his epistle to the Ephesians in which he spoke of the wonderful grace of God given him to preach among the Gentiles. He added: "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ." - Ephesians 3: 9.
And in his epistle to the Colossians St. Paul wrote concerning Jesus Christ as one "who is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of every creature". He stated further: "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and for him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist." - Colossians 1: 15-17.
Jesus Christ himself stated that he derived life from the Father. (John 5: 26) And throughout the period of his ministry on earth he never indicated that he was God Almighty Himself Who came in the form of man, rather he stated categorically that he was sent as a subordinate by the Father. He said; "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."-John 5: 30; see also John 6: 38; 12: 49.
When Jesus Christ was to raise Lazarus to life he prayed to his Father for help. (John 11: 38-44) After he had accomplished his ministry on earth he said prayerfully to God the Father: "I have glorified Thee on the earth: I have finished the work which Thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Thou me with Thine own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was."-John 17: 4, 5.
If Jesus were God Almighty Himself his sayings would have reflected his self-sufficiency and not as one who was carrying out the instructions of a superior or who expected reward from another. And when he (Jesus) was faced with violent death, he prayed: "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as Thou wilt." (Matthew 26: 39)

It will be unreasonable to suggest that he was praying to himself. The truth is that Jesus directed his prayer to the Father, God Almighty, Who is in heaven.
Jesus Christ did say, "I and my Father are one." (John 10: 30) He did not by this mean that They were one and the same God. Rather he meant that They were united or were one in purpose-acting together in harmony. The oneness he meant is clearly shown in his prayer to the father on behalf of his disciples. He said: "Neither pray I for these (apostles) alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; THAT THEY ALL MAY BE ONE; as Thou, Father, art in me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent me. And the glory which Thou gavest me I have given them; that THEY MAY BE ONE EVEN AS WE ARE ONE--"- John 17: 20-23.
No reasonable person will infer that Christ's prayer implies that all his disciples should be one and the same person. The fact is that he prayed so that his followers may be of one accord or be united; in other words, they should be one in purpose. [see 1st Corinthians 1 vs 10]

Subordinate
Despite the fact that Jesus Christ like God the Almighty is a spirit (as the angels also are spirits) and holds very high office, he has never snatched at equality with the Father.
He stated quite positively that his Father the Almighty God is greater than himself. He told his apostles: "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father; for my Father is greater than I." (John 14: 28) If he was the Father Himself who came in the form of a man why did he say, "I go unto the Father"
What is more, St. Paul stated: "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."(1st Corinthians 11: 3). But contrary to this glaring truth of the Scriptures, the Athanasian Creed says, "And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other: none is greater."
The Holy bible further shows that Jesus Christ, at the height of his glory during and after his millennial reign when all things shall have been made subject to him will still be subordinate to the Father. As it is written; "For he (Christ) is destined to reign until God has put all enemies under his feet; and the last enemy to be abolished is death." The Scripture says, He has put all things in subjection under his feet. But in saying "all things", it clearly means to exclude God Who subordinates them; and when all things are thus subject to him, then the Son himself will also be made subordinate to God Who made all things subject to him, and thus God will be all in all.- 1st Corinthians 15: 25-28, [N.E.D.]

The fact is that JEHOVAH Whom we serve does not slumber nor sleep much less being subject to death. (Psalm 121:3,4; 1 Timothy 6:16) It is most unfortunate that the sonship of Jesus Christ, which the clergy of today say is a mystery, was clear to a mad man in time of old, as it is written: "And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? - Matthew 8:28, 29; Mark 5:1-13.
God Almighty cannot be made equal with any as He asked through the Prophet Isaiah: "To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him? To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One." "To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?" - Isaiah 40: 18, 25; 42:8; 46:5.
The Almighty God is not pleased with the priests who despise His name by making Him equal with His son as recorded in Malachi Chapter 1 Verse 6: "A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?"

That God Almighty and Jesus Christ are not one and the same God, has been made abundantly clear in the light of the Scriptures. Whosoever does not know or have the accurate knowledge of God and Jesus Christ so as to worship Them in truth cannot be saved. "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." (1st Timothy 2: 3-5). And Jesus said "This is eternal life: to know thee Who alone art truly god, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent." - John 17: 3. [N.E.B.]
May God Almighty give His sheep among the readers wisdom and understanding through Jesus Christ our Redeemer. Amen.

By the way, the scripture you mentioned earlier actually disproves trinitarian/deity of god theory
1 Timothy 6:14-16

to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, [sup]15 [/sup]which God will bring about in his own time —God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, [sup]16 [/sup]who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.''

So this scripture tells us that Yahweh Almighty God cannot be seen, yet Jesus was seen many times in the gospels.

How this scripture supports deity is beyond me, and you say I'm not reading properly? Your scripture supports that God almighty cannot be seen!

Jesus has a God, and it shows that Jesus is not the same person as God. Also, our ‘Lord Jesus Christ’ has a God. If ‘Lord’ Jesus means ‘God Jesus’ then the God Jesus has a God?
2Cor 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
2Cor 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him
Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you
1Pet 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
2John 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Rev 3:12 (Jesus is speaking)Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


The Bible requires that you believe Jesus is the Son of God, and He Himself refers to Himself as this, as do His witnesses
Mat 16:15-18 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
John 8:24-28 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Mat 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
Mar 15:37-39And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

1John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
(Notice that not one verse in the Bible ever says you must believe that Jesus IS God, or that Jesus IS the Father, or to believe in the Trinity concept to be saved.)


The Head of Christ is God, if Jesus is God this makes no sense
1Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
There is One God, and Jesus is the MEDIATOR between God and men
1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
The TRUE God is the one that has a Son named Jesus Christ, Thus the TRUE God and eternal life is the Father alone
1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
The Son(Jesus) will be subject to God, and put all things under GOD
1Cor 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


Only the Father Knows the day or hour, if Jesus is God why doesn’t He know? And if He doesn’t know as a ‘man’, how is He 100% God and 100% man. Is He 100% God, but without 100% of God’s memory? Did becoming a man, yet remaining 100% God somehow make Him lose His memory?
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


To the glory of WHO? Oh, God the Father
Phl 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Clearly shows that God is a different being than our Lord Jesus Christ, thus Jesus isn’t God
Psa 110:1[A Psalm of David.] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
1Cor 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Devils know that Jesus is the Son of God, but they don’t know He is God? They were in heaven with God, you’d think they would know who God is
Luke 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.
Act 10:38-40 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly.

Paul declares that Jesus is a MAN, ordained by God
Act 17:30-31 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead.


John 1:1-14 All the confusion about the word 'Word/Logos (in Greek)'. Logos can mean: words, thoughts, ideas, nature, ways. So the words, thoughts, ideas, nature, and ways of God, became flesh, and dwelt among them. This was Jesus. This is expounded on by all the verses I have listed above, showing that Jesus was the perfect and complete example of God, like a miniature version of who He truly is, in human form. As the scriptures say, where you have seen Jesus, you have seen the Father, but the 2 are not one and the same as proven above.

As for Isaiah 9:6, Satan was called a God , so is Satan the true god too?


2 Corinthians 4:4

New International Version (NIV)
[sup]4 [/sup]The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
This is very easy to answer. Have you ever looked at someone or something and said "Oh my God"? You are obviously not calling that person or object God, it is an exclamation of shock, as it was to Thomas to realize Jesus had been resurrected. What Thomas "answered" was not to a question of who Jesus was. Also remember from the verses earlier that Lord and God are not synonymous and can't always be used interchangeably.

Here's your theory about 'Alpha and Omega'

Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and Omega.
This is actually said 4 times in Revelation, it is taken from Isaiah 44:6 where God says it in the OT. The last time it's said in Revelation is often used because a few verses later you find the phrase "I come quickly" and "I Jesus have sent mine angel". People often use this to prove that it is Jesus who was talking in verse 13, saying that He is the Alpha and Omega, this is not so. Verse 14 says "blessed are they that do His commandments". The same person cannot be talking in both 13 and 14 because verse 14 refers to the Alpha and the Omega in 2nd person so you have a change of identity. God is being quoted in verse 13, and Jesus speaks from 14 through 19. God is quoted like this many times in the Bible, yet nobody says Moses is God, or Isaiah is God.

Lastly, with many comparisons between attributes of Jesus in the NT and attributes of God in the OT, some of the same verses are quoted between the 2. This doesn't cause a problem since the Bible teaches the pre-existence of Jesus in verses like Col 1:16, Proverbs 30:4, and of course Genesis 1:26 where we all know that elohim is plural there. Something very important about the word "elohim" is that the word does NOT always refer to the almighty God, but can mean "a mighty one" and that MOSES of all people was actually called "elohim" in Exodus 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. Also, comparing verses only proves in many cases that both Jesus and the Father have the same attributes, and ultimately prove that things changed between the OT and NT. The pre-existence of Jesus and the use of the vague "Elohim" for "God" in many verses instead of "Yahweh" or "Jehovah" which is more specific, seals any opportunity for proving that Jesus is the Father by using the OT.

It seems that when Jesus referred to himself as possessing ‘divinity’ it was invariably in terms of the indwelling Father, not the incarnate ‘God the Son’. He never speaks of ‘the Son that dwells in me’. Instead, Jesus was indwelt by his God in the same way the ark of the covenant was. In John 17:3, Jesus clearly sets himself in contrast to ‘the only one who is truly God’, the Father (see also John 5:44).
Furthermore, where the title ‘god’ is applied to Jesus by others, it harmonises far better with the Hebrew Bible to read it in terms of a functional equality, as opposed to an identity of substance. Moses was made a god to Pharaoh (Exodus 7:1) because he acted as Yahweh’s stand-in for his dealings with Egypt. In the same way, Paul describer the Satan as ‘the god of this age’ in that he occupies the dominion, usurped from Adam, that the Son will enjoy in the age to come.

Matthew 28:18-20

New International Version (NIV)
[sup]18 [/sup]Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [sup]19 [/sup]Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [sup]20 [/sup]and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

The many Sons of God in the Bible:
1. Luke 3:38 "...Adam which was the Son of God."
2. Genesis 6:2 &4 "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men...and when the sons of God came in unto
the daughters of men..."
3. Exodus 4:22 "Israel is my son even my first born."
4. Romans 8:14 "For as many as are led by the spirit of God are called sons of God,"
5. Matthew 5:9 "Blessed are the peace-makers for they shall be called sons of God."


By the above quotations from the Bible it should be clear that the term "son of God," signifies only a righteous person. It does not mean that the person so titled is divine, or we would have hundreds of Gods according to the Bible. Jesus is described as the "son of man," 83 times in the New Testament whereas he's described only 13 times as the son of God. What we also see is that Jesus used the terms, "Your Father," "Thy Father," describing God's relationship with people 13 times before the first time he ever said, "My Father," about God. All these show that he was in no way implying that God physically begot him.

It is claimed that in John 3:16 (the favorite verse of the evangelists) that Jesus is referred to as the only son of God. A careful reading of the verse compared to Hebrews 11:17 shows that Isaac is described as the only son of Abraham, whereas literally speaking Isaac was never the only son of Abraham as Ishmael was born before him. The use of the word is metaphoric, Jesus was special among the sons of God.

Peter in the Book of Acts testifies about Jesus: "O you men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN approved of God among you...(Acts 2:22)

The word "god" in the Bible is used for every other person including the prophets. It does not mean the person is God almighty. As examples consider the above quote from Exodus where Moses is referred to as God and also Psalms 82:6 where God allegedly refers to the prophets as gods: "I said, Ye are all gods and all of you are the children of the Most High."

Check out Exodus 7:1 (God said to Moses)"See I have made you a god (in the Greek it would be Tontheos, doesn't mean God almighty but just a god.) to Pharaoh and Aaron thy brother will be thy prophet."

As examples, Cyrus the Persian, who was a pagan is called Messiah in the Bible (Isaiah 45:1). It is however covered up by the translators who translate the word as anointed. The Hebrew and the Arabic word Messiah comes from the root Masaaha, which means to rub, message or anoint. Ancient kings and priests were "anointed" or appointed, into office. It does not mean that the person so named and termed is God at all. The
title of "savior," or "saviors" is used for other people in the Bible (2 Kings 13:5 and Obadiah 21 and Nehemiah 9:27). Translators are well aware of this so they substitute the word savior for deliverer to throw off readers.

Jesus had a servant-master relationship with God. He never claimed to be equal to God, or to be of the same nature as God. Attributing divinity to Christ, a man goes completely against his teachings as found in the New Testament of the Bible.

"...and go and tell my brethren that I ascend to My Father and Your Father, to MY GOD and your God (John 20:17)."
 

Groundzero

Not Afraid To Stand
Jul 20, 2011
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You're last statement has got me confused. Are you saying we shouldn't bother
to do what's right?

I posted many scriptures (which you ignored and avoided).

Why should I keep repeating myself?

John 6:40:
''For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.''

Ephesians 1:3:''Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.''

2 Corinthians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,

Ephesians 1:20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,

The early Christians believed Jesus wasn't God.

I couldn't be bothered to reply to your posts, they all consist of the same avoidance.

Matthew 26:64 "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Mark 14:62 "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Hebrews 1:1:
''In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.''

Hebrews 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.''

John 5:30:''By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.''

Luke 1:31-32:
''You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus.

He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,''

John 14:24:
''He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.''

1 Corinthians 8:6:
''yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord,
Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.''



John 14:6

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. ''

1 Timothy 2:5:
''For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,''

As for the 'open mind' comment, you would do well to take your own advice.

God of gods
The word god bears the meaning of one who is mighty or powerful. And so Jesus Christ is a god; the devil too is a god and St. Paul referred to him as "the god of this world". (2nd Corinthians 4: 3, 4) Rulers and judges, especially those who rule and administer justice in the fear of God and by reason of the powers vested in them, are gods. And because of the respect they deserve the divine law say, "Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people."-Exodus 22: 28.
All other gods, including Jesus Christ, who are the creatures of the Most High, are subject to Him (the Father). In Psalm 82: 1, 6 it is written: "GOD standeth in the congregation of the mighty; He judgeth among the gods. I have said, ye are gods; and all of you are children of the Most High."
For the fact that the Creator is supreme He is known as the "God of gods, and Lord of lords." (Deuteronomy 10: 17) And the Psalmist declared: "For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods." (Psalm 95: 3) If there is only one God or if gods are not many as the clergy teach, why the foregoing divine statements by the prophets of God?
There is nothing wrong therefore to say that Jesus Christ is god as there are also other gods. But the point is that Jesus Christ is a different or separate entity from the person of God the Father.
Those who say that Jesus Christ and the Father exist co-eternally are very wrong indeed. The Bible shows vividly that Jesus Christ derived life from or was created by the Father. It is only the Almighty God, the Father, Who is self-existent as signified by His name JEHOVAH. Concerning Him the Psalmist declared, "Even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God." - Psalm 90: 2.

God the almighty is not subject to death-He is immortal. And so He could not be the one who came to the earth in the form of man and was betrayed and killed by wicked men. Of Him (God) it is written: "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto, whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to Whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen." - 1st Timothy 6: 16.
It was the Word the Son of God who was incarnated as the angel Gabriel told Mary: "The power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called Son of God".
As a result of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ in his earthly mission God the Father has highly exalted him far above all the angels (Philippians 2: 9-11; Hebrews 1: 1-8) and rewarded him with immortality by which he has power over death and hell or grave. And he (Jesus) declared: "I an he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death" - Revelation 1: 18.

The Word
Jesus Christ was created before all other things and thus has the unique honour of being the BEGINNING of the creation of the Almighty God. (Revelation 3: 14) In fact it was through him other perfect things, both visible and invisible, were created. But it is a pity that this vital truth revealed in the Scriptures still remains a mystery to many who claim to be Christians.
When God said, "Let us make man in our own image" He was talking to the Word (Jesus Christ) through whose instrumentality man and other things were created. And Jesus Christ spike through King Solomon in spirit thus: "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. While as yet He had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there, Then I was by him, as one brought up with Him: and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him. " - Proverbs 8: 22-30.
In John 1: 1, it is written: "In the beginning was the word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God," God Almighty has no beginning, and so the "beginning" in this text means when the Word or Logos (Greek) who is God the Son was created or brought into existence. If God Almighty and Jesus Christ the Word are one and the same God or Person, it will not make sense to say that "The Word was with God".
It was the Word and NOT God Almighty who came to the world in the flesh and was called Jesus Christ. As it is written: "and the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."-John 1: 14.
After the creation of Jesus Christ, God the Almighty Father made him His creative agent and so made other perfect things through him. Thus it is stated: "All things were made by him; and without him (Jesus Christ) was not any thing made that was made." - John 1: 3.

That God created other things through Jesus Christ was confirmed by St. Paul in his epistle to the Ephesians in which he spoke of the wonderful grace of God given him to preach among the Gentiles. He added: "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ." - Ephesians 3: 9.
And in his epistle to the Colossians St. Paul wrote concerning Jesus Christ as one "who is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of every creature". He stated further: "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and for him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist." - Colossians 1: 15-17.
Jesus Christ himself stated that he derived life from the Father. (John 5: 26) And throughout the period of his ministry on earth he never indicated that he was God Almighty Himself Who came in the form of man, rather he stated categorically that he was sent as a subordinate by the Father. He said; "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."-John 5: 30; see also John 6: 38; 12: 49.
When Jesus Christ was to raise Lazarus to life he prayed to his Father for help. (John 11: 38-44) After he had accomplished his ministry on earth he said prayerfully to God the Father: "I have glorified Thee on the earth: I have finished the work which Thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Thou me with Thine own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was."-John 17: 4, 5.
If Jesus were God Almighty Himself his sayings would have reflected his self-sufficiency and not as one who was carrying out the instructions of a superior or who expected reward from another. And when he (Jesus) was faced with violent death, he prayed: "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as Thou wilt." (Matthew 26: 39)

It will be unreasonable to suggest that he was praying to himself. The truth is that Jesus directed his prayer to the Father, God Almighty, Who is in heaven.
Jesus Christ did say, "I and my Father are one." (John 10: 30) He did not by this mean that They were one and the same God. Rather he meant that They were united or were one in purpose-acting together in harmony. The oneness he meant is clearly shown in his prayer to the father on behalf of his disciples. He said: "Neither pray I for these (apostles) alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; THAT THEY ALL MAY BE ONE; as Thou, Father, art in me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent me. And the glory which Thou gavest me I have given them; that THEY MAY BE ONE EVEN AS WE ARE ONE--"- John 17: 20-23.
No reasonable person will infer that Christ's prayer implies that all his disciples should be one and the same person. The fact is that he prayed so that his followers may be of one accord or be united; in other words, they should be one in purpose. [see 1st Corinthians 1 vs 10]

Subordinate
Despite the fact that Jesus Christ like God the Almighty is a spirit (as the angels also are spirits) and holds very high office, he has never snatched at equality with the Father.
He stated quite positively that his Father the Almighty God is greater than himself. He told his apostles: "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father; for my Father is greater than I." (John 14: 28) If he was the Father Himself who came in the form of a man why did he say, "I go unto the Father"
What is more, St. Paul stated: "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."(1st Corinthians 11: 3). But contrary to this glaring truth of the Scriptures, the Athanasian Creed says, "And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other: none is greater."
The Holy bible further shows that Jesus Christ, at the height of his glory during and after his millennial reign when all things shall have been made subject to him will still be subordinate to the Father. As it is written; "For he (Christ) is destined to reign until God has put all enemies under his feet; and the last enemy to be abolished is death." The Scripture says, He has put all things in subjection under his feet. But in saying "all things", it clearly means to exclude God Who subordinates them; and when all things are thus subject to him, then the Son himself will also be made subordinate to God Who made all things subject to him, and thus God will be all in all.- 1st Corinthians 15: 25-28, [N.E.D.]

The fact is that JEHOVAH Whom we serve does not slumber nor sleep much less being subject to death. (Psalm 121:3,4; 1 Timothy 6:16) It is most unfortunate that the sonship of Jesus Christ, which the clergy of today say is a mystery, was clear to a mad man in time of old, as it is written: "And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? - Matthew 8:28, 29; Mark 5:1-13.
God Almighty cannot be made equal with any as He asked through the Prophet Isaiah: "To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him? To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One." "To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?" - Isaiah 40: 18, 25; 42:8; 46:5.
The Almighty God is not pleased with the priests who despise His name by making Him equal with His son as recorded in Malachi Chapter 1 Verse 6: "A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?"

That God Almighty and Jesus Christ are not one and the same God, has been made abundantly clear in the light of the Scriptures. Whosoever does not know or have the accurate knowledge of God and Jesus Christ so as to worship Them in truth cannot be saved. "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." (1st Timothy 2: 3-5). And Jesus said "This is eternal life: to know thee Who alone art truly god, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent." - John 17: 3. [N.E.B.]
May God Almighty give His sheep among the readers wisdom and understanding through Jesus Christ our Redeemer. Amen.

By the way, the scripture you mentioned earlier actually disproves trinitarian/deity of god theory
1 Timothy 6:14-16

to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, [sup]15 [/sup]which God will bring about in his own time —God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, [sup]16 [/sup]who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.''

So this scripture tells us that Yahweh Almighty God cannot be seen, yet Jesus was seen many times in the gospels.

How this scripture supports deity is beyond me, and you say I'm not reading properly? Your scripture supports that God almighty cannot be seen!

Jesus has a God, and it shows that Jesus is not the same person as God. Also, our ‘Lord Jesus Christ’ has a God. If ‘Lord’ Jesus means ‘God Jesus’ then the God Jesus has a God?
2Cor 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
2Cor 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him
Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you
1Pet 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
2John 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Rev 3:12 (Jesus is speaking)Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


The Bible requires that you believe Jesus is the Son of God, and He Himself refers to Himself as this, as do His witnesses
Mat 16:15-18 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
John 8:24-28 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Mat 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
Mar 15:37-39And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

1John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
(Notice that not one verse in the Bible ever says you must believe that Jesus IS God, or that Jesus IS the Father, or to believe in the Trinity concept to be saved.)


The Head of Christ is God, if Jesus is God this makes no sense
1Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
There is One God, and Jesus is the MEDIATOR between God and men
1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
The TRUE God is the one that has a Son named Jesus Christ, Thus the TRUE God and eternal life is the Father alone
1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
The Son(Jesus) will be subject to God, and put all things under GOD
1Cor 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


Only the Father Knows the day or hour, if Jesus is God why doesn’t He know? And if He doesn’t know as a ‘man’, how is He 100% God and 100% man. Is He 100% God, but without 100% of God’s memory? Did becoming a man, yet remaining 100% God somehow make Him lose His memory?
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


To the glory of WHO? Oh, God the Father
Phl 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Clearly shows that God is a different being than our Lord Jesus Christ, thus Jesus isn’t God
Psa 110:1[A Psalm of David.] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
1Cor 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Devils know that Jesus is the Son of God, but they don’t know He is God? They were in heaven with God, you’d think they would know who God is
Luke 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.
Act 10:38-40 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly.

Paul declares that Jesus is a MAN, ordained by God
Act 17:30-31 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead.


John 1:1-14 All the confusion about the word 'Word/Logos (in Greek)'. Logos can mean: words, thoughts, ideas, nature, ways. So the words, thoughts, ideas, nature, and ways of God, became flesh, and dwelt among them. This was Jesus. This is expounded on by all the verses I have listed above, showing that Jesus was the perfect and complete example of God, like a miniature version of who He truly is, in human form. As the scriptures say, where you have seen Jesus, you have seen the Father, but the 2 are not one and the same as proven above.

As for Isaiah 9:6, Satan was called a God , so is Satan the true god too?


2 Corinthians 4:4

New International Version (NIV)
[sup]4 [/sup]The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
This is very easy to answer. Have you ever looked at someone or something and said "Oh my God"? You are obviously not calling that person or object God, it is an exclamation of shock, as it was to Thomas to realize Jesus had been resurrected. What Thomas "answered" was not to a question of who Jesus was. Also remember from the verses earlier that Lord and God are not synonymous and can't always be used interchangeably.

Here's your theory about 'Alpha and Omega'

Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and Omega.
This is actually said 4 times in Revelation, it is taken from Isaiah 44:6 where God says it in the OT. The last time it's said in Revelation is often used because a few verses later you find the phrase "I come quickly" and "I Jesus have sent mine angel". People often use this to prove that it is Jesus who was talking in verse 13, saying that He is the Alpha and Omega, this is not so. Verse 14 says "blessed are they that do His commandments". The same person cannot be talking in both 13 and 14 because verse 14 refers to the Alpha and the Omega in 2nd person so you have a change of identity. God is being quoted in verse 13, and Jesus speaks from 14 through 19. God is quoted like this many times in the Bible, yet nobody says Moses is God, or Isaiah is God.

Lastly, with many comparisons between attributes of Jesus in the NT and attributes of God in the OT, some of the same verses are quoted between the 2. This doesn't cause a problem since the Bible teaches the pre-existence of Jesus in verses like Col 1:16, Proverbs 30:4, and of course Genesis 1:26 where we all know that elohim is plural there. Something very important about the word "elohim" is that the word does NOT always refer to the almighty God, but can mean "a mighty one" and that MOSES of all people was actually called "elohim" in Exodus 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. Also, comparing verses only proves in many cases that both Jesus and the Father have the same attributes, and ultimately prove that things changed between the OT and NT. The pre-existence of Jesus and the use of the vague "Elohim" for "God" in many verses instead of "Yahweh" or "Jehovah" which is more specific, seals any opportunity for proving that Jesus is the Father by using the OT.

It seems that when Jesus referred to himself as possessing ‘divinity’ it was invariably in terms of the indwelling Father, not the incarnate ‘God the Son’. He never speaks of ‘the Son that dwells in me’. Instead, Jesus was indwelt by his God in the same way the ark of the covenant was. In John 17:3, Jesus clearly sets himself in contrast to ‘the only one who is truly God’, the Father (see also John 5:44).
Furthermore, where the title ‘god’ is applied to Jesus by others, it harmonises far better with the Hebrew Bible to read it in terms of a functional equality, as opposed to an identity of substance. Moses was made a god to Pharaoh (Exodus 7:1) because he acted as Yahweh’s stand-in for his dealings with Egypt. In the same way, Paul describer the Satan as ‘the god of this age’ in that he occupies the dominion, usurped from Adam, that the Son will enjoy in the age to come.

Matthew 28:18-20

New International Version (NIV)
[sup]18 [/sup]Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [sup]19 [/sup]Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [sup]20 [/sup]and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

The many Sons of God in the Bible:
1. Luke 3:38 "...Adam which was the Son of God."
2. Genesis 6:2 &4 "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men...and when the sons of God came in unto
the daughters of men..."
3. Exodus 4:22 "Israel is my son even my first born."
4. Romans 8:14 "For as many as are led by the spirit of God are called sons of God,"
5. Matthew 5:9 "Blessed are the peace-makers for they shall be called sons of God."


By the above quotations from the Bible it should be clear that the term "son of God," signifies only a righteous person. It does not mean that the person so titled is divine, or we would have hundreds of Gods according to the Bible. Jesus is described as the "son of man," 83 times in the New Testament whereas he's described only 13 times as the son of God. What we also see is that Jesus used the terms, "Your Father," "Thy Father," describing God's relationship with people 13 times before the first time he ever said, "My Father," about God. All these show that he was in no way implying that God physically begot him.

It is claimed that in John 3:16 (the favorite verse of the evangelists) that Jesus is referred to as the only son of God. A careful reading of the verse compared to Hebrews 11:17 shows that Isaac is described as the only son of Abraham, whereas literally speaking Isaac was never the only son of Abraham as Ishmael was born before him. The use of the word is metaphoric, Jesus was special among the sons of God.

Peter in the Book of Acts testifies about Jesus: "O you men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN approved of God among you...(Acts 2:22)

The word "god" in the Bible is used for every other person including the prophets. It does not mean the person is God almighty. As examples consider the above quote from Exodus where Moses is referred to as God and also Psalms 82:6 where God allegedly refers to the prophets as gods: "I said, Ye are all gods and all of you are the children of the Most High."

Check out Exodus 7:1 (God said to Moses)"See I have made you a god (in the Greek it would be Tontheos, doesn't mean God almighty but just a god.) to Pharaoh and Aaron thy brother will be thy prophet."

As examples, Cyrus the Persian, who was a pagan is called Messiah in the Bible (Isaiah 45:1). It is however covered up by the translators who translate the word as anointed. The Hebrew and the Arabic word Messiah comes from the root Masaaha, which means to rub, message or anoint. Ancient kings and priests were "anointed" or appointed, into office. It does not mean that the person so named and termed is God at all. The
title of "savior," or "saviors" is used for other people in the Bible (2 Kings 13:5 and Obadiah 21 and Nehemiah 9:27). Translators are well aware of this so they substitute the word savior for deliverer to throw off readers.

Jesus had a servant-master relationship with God. He never claimed to be equal to God, or to be of the same nature as God. Attributing divinity to Christ, a man goes completely against his teachings as found in the New Testament of the Bible.

"...and go and tell my brethren that I ascend to My Father and Your Father, to MY GOD and your God (John 20:17)."

Lost me? Let me rephrase: WANTING to do good is NOT going to save you. You have to actually do it.

Wow! So I'm the one dodging? If anyone here is reading through these painfully long discourse, judge and see if I haven't replied to his verses. Sure, I've left alot of them, mainly because I couldn't be bothered. I have to be rather motivated to make responses to discourses that run as long as the ones you have written. Of course, if you really want me to, I will.

If you want to continue this discussion, let me know, and I will reply in style. But otherwise, I really couldn't be bothered pointing out the same thing, because for 90% of the verses you have posted, they are all going to have the same reply: the dual nature of Jesus. And I've already went over that several times. But anyway, let me know if you really want a reply.
 

InHisGrace07

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Jul 4, 2012
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[font=Times New Roman']6[/font] For unto us a Child is born, >>Jesus Christ
Unto us a Son is given; >>the Son of God;Jesus Christ
And the government will be upon His shoulder.​
And His name (Jesus name) will be called​
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,​
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.​
[font=Times New Roman']7[/font] Of the increase of His government and peace​
There will be no end,​
Isaiah 9:6-7

[font=Times New Roman']9[/font] For in Him (Jesus) dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; [font=Times New Roman']10[/font] and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.​
Col 2:8-10

The Godhead being:God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit all existing in the person of Jesus Christ.
 

Stan

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Jul 19, 2012
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it is plain that we differ on this point. In my Holy Bible Almighty God owns the 'word' which is the entire manuscript on all universal laws...(the light of the world) and Jesus delivered that word to us in a way we could understand it. A message which has overpowered every generation up to this present day. History tells us that userpers have snatched God's written word out of the hands of those who kept the resurrection alive and, for reasons of iniquity, altered it a little. Today the remnant userpers (iniquity) still wield a mighty sword. It is essential we get our facts right.

Any doubts on any Christian point demands that we go back to what Jesus told us. It is clear that Jesus loved his father and had the highest respect for him, leading us to show the same respect to God that he did...with the one distinct difference.

..."No one comes to the father unless it is through me". Through me, can only mean, as Jesus taught it and this relationship in trust, faith and obedience, is what is required of us. Quietly, calmly and with a desire to learn the accurate truth even if our most sanctified views are challenged by it..

Sorry, I stopped following this thread.... can I have a simple one word answer please. Is Jesus God or not? It doesn't take a long onerous statement, it just needs one word. While you consider the answer, please look at the following.
  • "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (Col. 2:9, NASB).
  • "and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God" (Eph. 3:19, NASB).
 

us2are1

Son Of Man
Sep 14, 2011
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[font=Times New Roman']6[/font] For unto us a Child is born, >>Jesus Christ
Unto us a Son is given; >>the Son of God;Jesus Christ
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name (Jesus name) will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
[font=Times New Roman']7[/font] Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Isaiah 9:6-7

[font=Times New Roman']9[/font] For in Him (Jesus) dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; [font=Times New Roman']10[/font] and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
Col 2:8-10

The Godhead being:God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit all existing in the person of Jesus Christ.

God and the Holy Spirit are one and the same. God was in Christ and without the body is Christ. Christ was manifested as the father but God was never manifested as the father without Christ.

24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by messengers, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
 

KingdomCome

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Sep 13, 2010
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Jesus is not God...

God is Light...

1Joh 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Jesus is the Light of the world...

Mt 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Joh 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

Think of the ocean...when we go to the beach and look out over the water, we see the ocean, however, we do not see the entirety of the ocean. Christ Jesus is what we are able to see...the Light of the world (kosmos). God is the Father of that which we see...no man has seen God the Father...no man has seen the entirety of the ocean.

Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
 

Stan

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Jul 19, 2012
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Jesus is not God...

God is Light...

1Joh 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Jesus is the Light of the world...

Mt 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Joh 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

Think of the ocean...when we go to the beach and look out over the water, we see the ocean, however, we do not see the entirety of the ocean. Christ Jesus is what we are able to see...the Light of the world (kosmos). God is the Father of that which we see...no man has seen God the Father...no man has seen the entirety of the ocean.

Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Any particular reason you ignore the scriptures I have quoted in the last two posts prior to yours KC?
 

Raeneske

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Sep 18, 2012
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Jesus is in fact God, but He is not the Father.

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The word of course, being Jesus Christ.

John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The Word was made Flesh - The Son of God was made flesh, and dwelt among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father. The Son of God, is the only begotten of the Father. Instantly, we see there is a difference. And in verse 1:1, it says "The Word was WITH God". The Son, like His Father, is eternal, and was always with God the Father. So, by two simple verses we can see, there is a difference, and there is in fact more than one God. The Father, and the Son. But the Word says there is more than that.

1 John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Notice, it says there are THREE that bear record in heaven. The Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. Three Heavenly, eternal, three persons in the Godhead. When it says "These three are one" it does not mean LITERALLY one. They are one in mind, one in agreement, of perfect accord. It is thus that they are one.

Matthew 19:5 - And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mark 10:8 - And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

Both these verses are speaking of marriage, that when one shall marry, they shall become ONE flesh. Does this mean they are LITERALLY one flesh? No, it does not. In God's eyes, yes we are one flesh, but we are not LITERALLY one flesh.

1 Corinthains 10:17 - For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

Does this mean we are one literal body now? No! We are not literally one single solitary Christian. We are to act as one though, move in one accord, preaching the Gospel of Christ.

John 17:11 - And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 17:21- That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me
John 17:23 - I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

In Jesus's prayer, He asks His Father that WE may be one as Him and His Father. Does this mean literally one? No! Do you also notice, Jesus asks that as His Father is in Him, and Him in His Father, that WE may be ONE in them? Does this mean we are going to become God? No, of course not. Does this mean God will play the role of every single solitary human being who believes in Him? No, of course not. And notice, Jesus also says, he will be in US! If He is in US, does this make us LITERALLY one with Jesus? No! We are one in Accord, one in absolute agreement with the Father and the Son!
That is what is meant, when it says "These three are one". One last bit:

Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Strong's Exahustive Concordance: God
#H430
'elohiym
(masculine)
Outline of Biblical Usage:
1) (plural)
a) rulers, judges
B) divine ones
c) angels
d) gods

In the beginning Gods created the heaven and the earth.
 

us2are1

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Jesus is in fact God, but He is not the Father.

Wrong!!! Read this straight from Christ's mouth.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
 

Raeneske

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Again, He is NOT saying He is literally the Father. Christ came down here, and made manifest the Father's loving attributes, and character, revealing God to the World. So yes, as we have Seen Jesus, we know His Father. He portrayed the truth of God, to a perishing World.
Remember, he who rejects the messengers or the message that Christ sent him, rejects Christ. He who does not feed Christ, and clothe him, as Christ described with the little ones, rejects Christ. And if you're rejecting Christ, you are rejecting the Father.
 

Stan

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Jul 19, 2012
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Jesus is in fact God, but He is not the Father.

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.



Col 1:18-20
And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, in order that he might be preeminent in everything. [sup]19 [/sup]For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, [sup]20 [/sup]and through him to reconcile all things to himself, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through his blood shed on the cross.


1 John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Notice, it says there are THREE that bear record in heaven. The Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. Three Heavenly, eternal, three persons in the Godhead. When it says "These three are one" it does not mean LITERALLY one. They are one in mind, one in agreement, of perfect accord. It is thus that they are one.



This verse actually reads; For there are three that testify: [sup] [/sup]the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in accord.

This verse commonly gets used to justify the Trinity, and although I fully believe in a Tri-une God, I cannot in all good faith accept this verse as a scriptural support for it.



Matthew 19:5 - And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mark 10:8 - And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

Both these verses are speaking of marriage, that when one shall marry, they shall become ONE flesh. Does this mean they are LITERALLY one flesh? No, it does not. In God's eyes, yes we are one flesh, but we are not LITERALLY one flesh.



Yes it does mean ONE flesh. I am not being indelicate, but copulation makes a man and woman ONE flesh, literally. As Eve was made from Adam's flesh and as Adam indicated in Gen 2:21-24
 

Raeneske

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"Col 1:18-20
And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, in order that he might be preeminent in everything. [sup]19 [/sup]For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, [sup]20 [/sup]and through him to reconcile all things to himself, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through his blood shed on the cross."


Already answered that, with the the Father dwelling within Christ.

"This verse actually reads; For there are three that testify: [sup] [/sup]the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in accord."

No, it does not. But I'm not getting into the "this doesn't belong in the Bible" type of discussion. The verses that prove these false doctrines to be in error all mysteriously "don't belong in the Bible". I find that hard to believe.

"Yes it does mean ONE flesh. I am not being indelicate, but copulation makes a man and woman ONE flesh, literally. As Eve was made from Adam's flesh and as Adam indicated in Gen 2:21-24"

It does not mean literally one person, that's the indication I was getting at. Just like, the church is not ONE solitary Christian, all though we are to be as One. We are not literally one.
 

Stan

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Jul 19, 2012
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Already answered that, with the the Father dwelling within Christ.



Then the fullness of God INCLUDES the Father.



[quote name='Raeneske' timestamp='1349464116' post='168604']
No, it does not. But I'm not getting into the "this doesn't belong in the Bible" type of discussion. The verses that prove these false doctrines to be in error all mysteriously "don't belong in the Bible". I find that hard to believe.[/quote]


The fact is, the way you quote 1John 5:7-8 is ONLY found in the Latin Vulgate, and NOT in any Greek manuscripts.





[quote name='Raeneske' timestamp='1349464116' post='168604'] IIt does not mean literally one person, that's the indication I was getting at. Just like, the church is not ONE solitary Christian, all though we are to be as One. We are not literally one.
[/quote]

The comparison is not acceptable. It compares apples to oranges. Marriage is a union, physically, spiritually and mentally. The two become one. If you accept three in One as a description of God, why can you not accept two AS one when it comes to marriage? The Bible makes it clear this is the way God intended it to be. Note in Gen 2:24 it says; "For this reason", which is identified in verse 23.
 
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