Is Jesus God?

Raeneske · Oct 5, 2012

"Then the fullness of God INCLUDES the Father."

I've already explained what this means. Of course it includes the Father, but that does not make them LITERALLY one.

"The fact is, the way you quote 1John 5:7-8 is ONLY found in the Latin Vulgate, and NOT in any Greek manuscripts."

The time shall come when men will not endure "sound doctrine". The Roman Catholic Trinity is not "sound doctrine" (check the Catholic Encyclopedia). As for "not in any Greek manuscripts", that's actually flat out wrong. There's actually a huge arguement going on about what were the "original" greek manuscripts. They can't even determine that, but they're determing what to rip out of scripture? Nice try - Not falling for it.

"The comparison is not acceptable. It compares apples to oranges. Marriage is a union, physically, spiritually and mentally. The two become one. If you accept three in One as a description of God, why can you not accept two AS one when it comes to marriage? The Bible makes it clear this is the way God intended it to be. Note in Gen 2:24 it says; "For this reason", which is identified in verse 23."

So, when you marry someone you're literally one solitary human being? No, you are not. I can accept two become one - but I do not accept they become "literally one solid person". It's just like the Three as one God description. I can accept they are one - but they are not LITERALLY one person. As the Bible says, there are THREE, not 'there is one'.
What about Romans 12:5? Are we one Solitary Human being? 1 Corinthians 10:17 - One Bread? One body? Literally ALL ONE? As I said, in Genesis the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance says God is plural. Gods created Heavens and the Earth. Not one.

Stan · Oct 5, 2012

Raeneske said:
I've already explained what this means. Of course it includes the Father, but that does not make them LITERALLY one.

Please use the sites quote tool and not post like this. It is too messy and consumes to much space which is costly for the sites owners.

Actually Jesus says they are LITERALLY one.
John 10:30; [sup] "[/sup]I and the Father are one.”
John 14:9; Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.
John 14:10; Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Raeneske said:
The time shall come when men will not endure "sound doctrine". The Roman Catholic Trinity is not "sound doctrine" (check the Catholic Encyclopedia). As for "not in any Greek manuscripts", that's actually flat out wrong. There's actually a huge arguement going on about what were the "original" greek manuscripts. They can't even determine that, but they're determing what to rip out of scripture? Nice try - Not falling for it.

We're NOT talking about the RCC, and that is an unfortunate attitude and totally wrong. Their are no 'ORIGINAL' manuscripts or what are properly referred to as 'autographs'. The Trinity is NOT an RCC doctrine, it is a Biblical principle. Did you actaully read the link I posted to the five English translations at Biblegateway.com? The translators of three of those versions attest to this fact. NIV says; Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. [sup]8 [/sup]And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

The TRINITY doctrine means just thaat, three personalities in one being.

Raeneske said:
So, when you marry someone you're literally one solitary human being? No, you are not. I can accept two become one - but I do not accept they become "literally one solid person". It's just like the Three as one God description. I can accept they are one - but they are not LITERALLY one person. As the Bible says, there are THREE, not 'there is one'.
What about Romans 12:5? Are we one Solitary Human being? 1 Corinthians 10:17 - One Bread? One body? Literally ALL ONE? As I said, in Genesis the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance says God is plural. Gods created Heavens and the Earth. Not one.

I never said they become one solid person. I said they become one. Being one is more than being a single physical entity.
Yes, Rom 12:5, there's only one church, contrary to what we see today as far as denominations are concerned. There is only ONE God, and He manifests Himself in three distinct ways. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 10:17 is Paul comparing the church to a loaf. A load of bread is made of many many particles of flour, the church is made of many many people. They are both in the end, ONE.
Yes the word Elohim is a plural use of the singular God. That is how the Hebrew language conveyed the Trinity concept which was not fully needed or fleshed out until Jesus was physically born and died. The concept receives it's completion in the NT/NC.
ONE God, three facits, indivisible. There is only ONE heaven or universe created by ONE God.

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Mark 12:29
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

Raeneske · Oct 5, 2012

Catholic Encyclopedia on Trinity:

"It is manifest that a dogma so mysterious presupposes a Divine revelation. When the fact of revelation, understood in its full sense as the speech of God to man, is no longer admitted, the rejection of the doctrine follows as a necessary consequence. For this reason it has no place in the Liberal Protestantism of today. The writers of this school contend that the doctrine of the Trinity, as professed by the Church, is not contained in the New Testament, but that it was first formulated in the second century and received final approbation in the fourth, as the result of the Arian and Macedonian controversies."

It is not a "Christian" doctrine, the Trinity. It is a Catholic Doctrine.

The Trinity, is not supported by the Bible. Usually people use 1 John 5:7 as "These three are one" because it seems very easy to twist that to say literally one. As described the Church is One - but they are not literally one. They are many different separate humans beings, all supposed to be working in one agreement. Two people within a marriage are one - but they are not literally one. Our three Gods are one - but they are not LITERALLY one.

As I stated before, The Father is in the Son, but remember the Son is in US, that we may be ONE as they are. This does not denote a literal being of one solitary person. Just like, harming one of Christ's little ones, is the same as harming Christ himself. Are Christ and His little one's LITERALLY one? No. But they are one in accord, in agreement, in will.

They are one Godhead, The Father, His Son, and the Holy Ghost, but by no means are they "one God".

And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (Hebrews 1:6-9 KJV)

God the Father, is speaking to His Son and calling Him God. The Father is the God of the Son.

And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. (Genesis 11:6, 7 KJV)

The People were one, and they all had one laguage. They were all in complete agreement to build that tower, and they all spoke one language. Therefore the Son said let US go down and confuse their languages.

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Ephesians 4:4-6 KJV)

One Spirit (Refering to the Holy Ghost), One LORD (Regarding the Lord Jesus Christ), and one God and Father (Literally God the Father is the only God & Father). That equals 3. He is above all, through all, and in us all. He is in Jesus, Jesus is in us, this makes us one with the Father - but not literally one.

Agree to disagree?

Stan · Oct 5, 2012

Raeneske said:
Catholic Encyclopedia on Trinity:

"It is manifest that a dogma so mysterious presupposes a Divine revelation. When the fact of revelation, understood in its full sense as the speech of God to man, is no longer admitted, the rejection of the doctrine follows as a necessary consequence. For this reason it has no place in the Liberal Protestantism of today. The writers of this school contend that the doctrine of the Trinity, as professed by the Church, is not contained in the New Testament, but that it was first formulated in the second century and received final approbation in the fourth, as the result of the Arian and Macedonian controversies."

It is not a "Christian" doctrine, the Trinity. It is a Catholic Doctrine.

The Trinity, is not supported by the Bible. Usually people use 1 John 5:7 as "These three are one" because it seems very easy to twist that to say literally one. As described the Church is One - but they are not literally one. They are many different separate humans beings, all supposed to be working in one agreement. Two people within a marriage are one - but they are not literally one. Our three Gods are one - but they are not LITERALLY one.

As I stated before, The Father is in the Son, but remember the Son is in US, that we may be ONE as they are. This does not denote a literal being of one solitary person. Just like, harming one of Christ's little ones, is the same as harming Christ himself. Are Christ and His little one's LITERALLY one? No. But they are one in accord, in agreement, in will.

They are one Godhead, The Father, His Son, and the Holy Ghost, but by no means are they "one God".

And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (Hebrews 1:6-9 KJV)

God the Father, is speaking to His Son and calling Him God. The Father is the God of the Son.

And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. (Genesis 11:6, 7 KJV)

The People were one, and they all had one laguage. They were all in complete agreement to build that tower, and they all spoke one language. Therefore the Son said let US go down and confuse their languages.

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Ephesians 4:4-6 KJV)

One Spirit (Refering to the Holy Ghost), One LORD (Regarding the Lord Jesus Christ), and one God and Father (Literally God the Father is the only God & Father). That equals 3. He is above all, through all, and in us all. He is in Jesus, Jesus is in us, this makes us one with the Father - but not literally one.

Agree to disagree?

You have been properly instructed by my responses. Continuing to voice the same points without recognizing what the scriptures actually say is something you do at your own risk. It is not a matter of disagreement, it is a matter of what God's Word says. You seem to be more willing to listen to the RCC writings than you are in listening to God's Word. In either case, you are BOTH wrong. I have nothing further to say to you on this subject.

Groundzero · Oct 6, 2012

Raeneske said:
It is not a "Christian" doctrine, the Trinity. It is a Catholic Doctrine.

The Trinity, is not supported by the Bible. Usually people use 1 John 5:7 as "These three are one" because it seems very easy to twist that to say literally one. As described the Church is One - but they are not literally one. They are many different separate humans beings, all supposed to be working in one agreement. Two people within a marriage are one - but they are not literally one. Our three Gods are one - but they are not LITERALLY one.

As I stated before, The Father is in the Son, but remember the Son is in US, that we may be ONE as they are. This does not denote a literal being of one solitary person. Just like, harming one of Christ's little ones, is the same as harming Christ himself. Are Christ and His little one's LITERALLY one? No. But they are one in accord, in agreement, in will.

They are one Godhead, The Father, His Son, and the Holy Ghost, but by no means are they "one God".

God the Father, is speaking to His Son and calling Him God. The Father is the God of the Son.

And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. (Genesis 11:6, 7 KJV)

The People were one, and they all had one laguage. They were all in complete agreement to build that tower, and they all spoke one language. Therefore the Son said let US go down and confuse their languages.

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Ephesians 4:4-6 KJV)

One Spirit (Refering to the Holy Ghost), One LORD (Regarding the Lord Jesus Christ), and one God and Father (Literally God the Father is the only God & Father). That equals 3. He is above all, through all, and in us all. He is in Jesus, Jesus is in us, this makes us one with the Father - but not literally one.

Agree to disagree?

Why don't we cut to the chase, and instead of preaching all this baloney, just say, it's a blessed mystery? I can't think of anything more illogical or ridiculous, then defining God as three distinct persons, who think differently, etc, and then declare that they are one!?

I find it fascinating that you state, "It is not a "Christian" doctrine, the Trinity. It is a Catholic Doctrine." You're exactly right. And if it's got nothing to do with Christ, I don't want nothing to do with it!

Now you mention about this one, like a unity in a marriage, or what-not. So tell me, when Jesus declared to Philip, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father!" he was dead serious? Because my father would NEVER say to someone, "If you have seen me, you have seen my wife!" Jesus could say that because he WAS the express image of the Father. The spirit inside him was none other than that which inhabited eternity.

You then state that it was the Son who said "Let us go down . . . .". As far as I was aware, it was Jehovah who said that . . . . . some leap in assumption there.
Let us see now, I think I will go get a doughnut . . . no, I was talking to myself.

Now you go to Ephesians 4. Somehow you classify the ONE spirit as the Holy Ghost. You know, I thought that the Father was a spirit too (John 4:23-24), so that makes two spirits . . . Correction: the Father IS the Holy Ghost. There is only ONE spirit.

You say 1+1+1=3. Well how about the body? Because according to this verse, there is ONE body, and according to your reasoning, there is absolutely no reason why I shouldn't declare this ONE body to be a fourth member of the Godhead!

I am fascinated as to what your God the Father actually does. Would you care to explain for me what God the Father's role has been?

Please.

Raeneske · Oct 6, 2012

It's just like, seeing a Christian, who actually acts like a Christian, who strives onto that perfection. You have seen Christ, because Christ dwells in that person. That's why Jesus says, if you have seen Him, you have seen the Father.

Yes, Christ is the express image, but man was to be made in the image of God. Man is made in the image, Christ however is the express image.

Christ will be in us, as His Father was in Him. We are to be one with Christ, and His Father, and they are one. It's not saying they are literally one, but they are one in agreement, one in accord. Just like these people on earth when they made the decision to build the tower of Babel that they were one.

And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. (Genesis 11:6 KJV)

There were many who wanted to build the Tower of Babel, but those many were one. There are two which get married, but they are one. There are many Christians in a church, but they are one. There are three which bear record in Heaven and these three are one.

That entire paragraph I just shared showed a brief amount of "one" instances. But were the persons apart of each literally one? No, of course not. They were many, but they were to be and act as though they were one. They were in complete agreement with each other.

As for the Let us see now, no, I cannot agree with that. Do you say "Let us go get a donut" when referring to yourself? Or do you say "Let me go get a donut".

In Response to John, yes God is a Spirit. But just like when the Word talks about one God and Father (Ephesians 4:6), it's referring to the Holy Spirit. Just like it's not saying literally one God, but there is "one God AND Father". Only One God is Father, and only one is constitued as the Holy Ghost.

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. (1 Corinthians 12:4-6 KJV)

The Spirit gives gifts, The Lord gives administrations, The Father gives a diversity of operations, and they all work for the glorification of the Father in Heaven.

And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (Mark 1:9-11 KJV)

Here we have, The Son just getting baptized, and the Holy Ghost then flying around in the sky, descending like a dove, and we see the Father in Heaven speaking. All three in separate areas at the same time. Or what of this?

Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the Lord, The temple of the Lord, The temple of the Lord, are these. (Jeremiah 7:4 KJV)

The temple of the Lord (1)... The temple of the Lord (2)... The temple of the Lord (3)...

As for the one body, it is not saying "God-divine Body". Neither is the "body" mentioned as part of the Godhead, ever. When it says body, it's referring to a number of people (small or large) being closely together as "one".

To find out what the God and Father does, we should study the Word. Off the top in my head, I know He takes care of us. I know He counts the hairs on our head, feeds the birds, is aware of every prayer that comes from our lips. There's more, but needs a MUCH bigger study than here.

Groundzero · Oct 7, 2012

Raeneske said:
It's just like, seeing a Christian, who actually acts like a Christian, who strives onto that perfection. You have seen Christ, because Christ dwells in that person. That's why Jesus says, if you have seen Him, you have seen the Father.

Yes, Christ is the express image, but man was to be made in the image of God. Man is made in the image, Christ however is the express image.

Christ will be in us, as His Father was in Him. We are to be one with Christ, and His Father, and they are one. It's not saying they are literally one, but they are one in agreement, one in accord. Just like these people on earth when they made the decision to build the tower of Babel that they were one.

And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. (Genesis 11:6 KJV)

There were many who wanted to build the Tower of Babel, but those many were one. There are two which get married, but they are one. There are many Christians in a church, but they are one. There are three which bear record in Heaven and these three are one.

That entire paragraph I just shared showed a brief amount of "one" instances. But were the persons apart of each literally one? No, of course not. They were many, but they were to be and act as though they were one. They were in complete agreement with each other.

As for the Let us see now, no, I cannot agree with that. Do you say "Let us go get a donut" when referring to yourself? Or do you say "Let me go get a donut".

In Response to John, yes God is a Spirit. But just like when the Word talks about one God and Father (Ephesians 4:6), it's referring to the Holy Spirit. Just like it's not saying literally one God, but there is "one God AND Father". Only One God is Father, and only one is constitued as the Holy Ghost.

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. (1 Corinthians 12:4-6 KJV)

The Spirit gives gifts, The Lord gives administrations, The Father gives a diversity of operations, and they all work for the glorification of the Father in Heaven.

And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (Mark 1:9-11 KJV)

Here we have, The Son just getting baptized, and the Holy Ghost then flying around in the sky, descending like a dove, and we see the Father in Heaven speaking. All three in separate areas at the same time. Or what of this?

Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the Lord, The temple of the Lord, The temple of the Lord, are these. (Jeremiah 7:4 KJV)

The temple of the Lord (1)... The temple of the Lord (2)... The temple of the Lord (3)...

As for the one body, it is not saying "God-divine Body". Neither is the "body" mentioned as part of the Godhead, ever. When it says body, it's referring to a number of people (small or large) being closely together as "one".

To find out what the God and Father does, we should study the Word. Off the top in my head, I know He takes care of us. I know He counts the hairs on our head, feeds the birds, is aware of every prayer that comes from our lips. There's more, but needs a MUCH bigger study than here.

It will never cease to amaze me some of the conclusions we reach when trying to prove a point. I believe God was saying that the people were one in regards to their race . . . not a literal one?!

So tell me, would you say to someone, a complete stranger, "If you have seen me, you have seen my spouse?"
Because that is the warped reasoning that you are applying to the Bible.

Let us . . . well, to be honest, I wouldn't say that. I would say, "Let's go get a doughnut." And in case English wasn't your strong point, 'let's' is a contraction for 'let us'. Same thing. I'm sure that quite a few people here could put up their hand and say, yes, I've said to myself, "Let's . . . . "

As for the body, you seem to be implying that the word, "Lord" is a reference to God the Son alone. Correct? Otherwise, how do we know who it refers to?

You seem to have an obsession with three . . . . anything that can fit into three is evidence of a Triune Godhead . . . what was wrong with the number one? since the Bible actually attributes that number directly in relation to God, unlike the number three.

What I mean by my question on God the Father, WAS HE the Creator? Why is he called the Father? Why is he called the Father? What was it that gives him that title?

And one final question: the name of Jesus. To whom does it apply? Is it the name of the Son alone?

Or are all three members of this Godhead possessing the same name?!

Raeneske · Oct 7, 2012

I cannot answer fully "if you have seen me, you have seen my spouse". I know parents, though different personalities, are supposed to operate as one. When they rebuke their children, when they teach their children, when they teach others things regarding their family, they operate together. Rather simple concept, but the key here missed though, that maybe i'm not doing a good job explaining, is all it means is they operate as their one.

Obviously, that seems a little strange, but it what about when Jesus refers to his brethern, saying as much as you have done to these little ones, you have done it also to me? Just like rejecting Christ's messengers, is the same as rejecting Christ. You aren't rejecting the person, but He who sent them. Christ can say, "if ye have seen me, ye have seen the Father" because He is the express image. But he came to reveal the character of God the Father, to a lost and perishing world. He did only that of His Father's will.

As for three, the Bible says that there are THREE which bear record in Heaven. I do have a problem with "Triune" or "Trinity" because this teaching is without Biblical Jurisprudence. It is the heart and center of Catholocism. This just shows how far their doctrines have spilled into Protestantism. It's not as if Protestants splitting off, have remained completely pure from this church. There are many teachings within this church that "seem" to be true, but upon a much closer inspection, they just don't hold up. And I mean, at all.

Why and what gives the Father that title, is not up for discussion. Much danger is seen in speculative knowledge. We can know, what is written.

My understanding thus far, is that the Son of God created all that is seen and unseen, but the Father worked through Him. No, this does not imply "they are literally one". It's just like when the Father works through His messengers, or His prophets, etc. He worked through Him, all to His glory.

Jesus applies to the Son of God.

Stan · Oct 7, 2012

To refuse to acknowledge what God's Word DOES say about this issue and what is truly meant by the 'three that testify', is just plain unadulterated self. Those people will unfortunately be the ones that find out in the end that they are goats.

Groundzero · Oct 8, 2012

Raeneske said:
I cannot answer fully "if you have seen me, you have seen my spouse". I know parents, though different personalities, are supposed to operate as one. When they rebuke their children, when they teach their children, when they teach others things regarding their family, they operate together. Rather simple concept, but the key here missed though, that maybe i'm not doing a good job explaining, is all it means is they operate as their one.

Obviously, that seems a little strange, but it what about when Jesus refers to his brethern, saying as much as you have done to these little ones, you have done it also to me? Just like rejecting Christ's messengers, is the same as rejecting Christ. You aren't rejecting the person, but He who sent them. Christ can say, "if ye have seen me, ye have seen the Father" because He is the express image. But he came to reveal the character of God the Father, to a lost and perishing world. He did only that of His Father's will.

As for three, the Bible says that there are THREE which bear record in Heaven. I do have a problem with "Triune" or "Trinity" because this teaching is without Biblical Jurisprudence. It is the heart and center of Catholocism. This just shows how far their doctrines have spilled into Protestantism. It's not as if Protestants splitting off, have remained completely pure from this church. There are many teachings within this church that "seem" to be true, but upon a much closer inspection, they just don't hold up. And I mean, at all.

Why and what gives the Father that title, is not up for discussion. Much danger is seen in speculative knowledge. We can know, what is written.

My understanding thus far, is that the Son of God created all that is seen and unseen, but the Father worked through Him. No, this does not imply "they are literally one". It's just like when the Father works through His messengers, or His prophets, etc. He worked through Him, all to His glory.

Jesus applies to the Son of God.

Why don't you just admit that you can't explain it? Because you can't! If someone did say that, they would be thrown in the luny bin.
Your explanation about Jesus' statement about feeding the little ones, etc, is sadly lacking. It's not because Jesus and his little ones are ONE. It's because Jesus' flock REPRESENTS him. To do something for them is just like doing something for him. Completely different to Jesus' declaration, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."
The only way Jesus could say that, is if he was the Father.

You are ignoring a vital fact of Scripture: Rom_3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
If Jesus was just a man, then he was a sinner, and therefore, there was a time when he didn't do God's will. The ONLY way, that Jesus can be sinless, is if he is God himself, fused into a human body.

So in other words, you have forsaken the RCC doctrine of Trinity, but continue to cling to THREE persons in a Godhead?! I would start at base 1, read through the Scripture, and then stop in the Law of Moses where God declares that he is ONE! Again and again, that's what he declares. And so I would start with the conception that God is ONE, because that is what he tells me first, and then I defend it just as hard as you are attempting to defend your precious triune Godhead. No, correction: I would defend it harder.

Don't you think it's odd, that the Bible, time and time again, attributes creation to ONE: Jesus? If it really was God the Father working THROUGH God the Son, then don't you think Scripture would make that clear? What we do read of, is that JESUS (no mention of anyone else) made EVERYTHING and NOTHING without him could be made. Sounds like Jesus is THE God . . . .

How do you explain Matthew 28:19?
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
There is ONE name for the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. We know without a shadow of a doubt that the name of the Son is Jesus. So since there's only one name, the Father's name is Jesus, and the HOly Ghost's name is ALSO Jesus. Either we've got one twisted Godhead of three members, all with the same name, or these three members are actually three titles that belong to ONE spirit: the spirit that has inhabited eternity, Jesus, the ONE and only God.

logabe · Oct 8, 2012

Groundzero said:
Why don't you just admit that you can't explain it? Because you can't! If someone did say that, they would be thrown in the luny bin.
Your explanation about Jesus' statement about feeding the little ones, etc, is sadly lacking. It's not because Jesus and his little ones are ONE. It's because Jesus' flock REPRESENTS him. To do something for them is just like doing something for him. Completely different to Jesus' declaration, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."
The only way Jesus could say that, is if he was the Father.

You are ignoring a vital fact of Scripture: Rom_3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
If Jesus was just a man, then he was a sinner, and therefore, there was a time when he didn't do God's will. The ONLY way, that Jesus can be sinless, is if he is God himself, fused into a human body.

So in other words, you have forsaken the RCC doctrine of Trinity, but continue to cling to THREE persons in a Godhead?! I would start at base 1, read through the Scripture, and then stop in the Law of Moses where God declares that he is ONE! Again and again, that's what he declares. And so I would start with the conception that God is ONE, because that is what he tells me first, and then I defend it just as hard as you are attempting to defend your precious triune Godhead. No, correction: I would defend it harder.

Don't you think it's odd, that the Bible, time and time again, attributes creation to ONE: Jesus? If it really was God the Father working THROUGH God the Son, then don't you think Scripture would make that clear? What we do read of, is that JESUS (no mention of anyone else) made EVERYTHING and NOTHING without him could be made. Sounds like Jesus is THE God . . . .

How do you explain Matthew 28:19?
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
There is ONE name for the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. We know without a shadow of a doubt that the name of the Son is Jesus. So since there's only one name, the Father's name is Jesus, and the HOly Ghost's name is ALSO Jesus. Either we've got one twisted Godhead of three members, all with the same name, or these three members are actually three titles that belong to ONE spirit: the spirit that has inhabited eternity, Jesus, the ONE and only God.

I and my Father are ONE... John 10:30... but let's read on...

30 " I and the Father are one."
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good
works from the Father ; for which of them are you
stoning Me?"
33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do
not stone You, but for blasphemy ; and because You,
being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

After confessing that He and the Father were one and not two, if Jesus
wasn't the Father they had every right to stone him. We can pick up the
stones also on this forum and deny His Deity if we like, but I think we
should ask God to reveal Himself to us before we make the same mistake
they made.

Logabe

Xian Pugilist · Oct 8, 2012

Since this knowledge is super natural, and thus by definition beyond us, AND since it will not play a roll in salvation, nor Spiritual growth, why do we make such a deal out of it?

The fruits of this topic is intrinsic divisiveness, factions, fights, etc... and by definition that is fruit of the flesh... gal 5:19-21.

Shouldn't that tell us to leave it alone?

Groundzero said:
Is Jesus God, or is he not?

Raeneske · Oct 8, 2012

No, the Triune Trinity is not the same as 3 Gods. The Triune Trinity says God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit are all manifestations of God, and that they are not 3 Gods, but one God. - That's the difference. The Triune Trinity claims only one God.

This is an error.

As for Jesus and His little ones being one, what do you think of this verse?

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. (John 17:23 KJV)

Jesus will be one with us, and will be in all of us, including His little ones, as His Father dwells within Him, That we may be perfect in one. To be one with God does not mean a literal manisfestation of one being. It means to be in complete harmony with the Divine will, and the Divine impulse.
As you spoke of representations, Jesus actually explained that when you see Him, you see the Father because He did His Father's will entirely.

I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. (John 17:6 KJV)

As Isaiah 28:10 says, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little. Here lies the key to finding the truth about all things that Christ said. When he made the statement, you have seen Him, then you have seen the Father, he regarded it towards the Fact that he manifested His Father's name (character) perfectly in this world. Everywhere Christ went, did He the work of His Father. He truly could say, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father".
As Jesus's Father was manifested in Him, so will Jesus be manifested in us who follow Jesus. If you have a true Christian, you have seen Jesus. If you smite one, you have smitten Jesus. He who rejects Jesus, has rejected the Father, because the Father sent Him. And now Jesus bids us to go everywhere preaching the Gospel.

Creation actually is not attributed to one. The word God in Genesis, is plural. In perfect English it reada, "In the Beginning God's Created the Heavens and Earth". So right off the bat, it teaches plural amounts.

In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost are Three great powers in Heaven.

As for this doctrine of the Trinity, it needs not be held onto by Christians. It is what Rome has used to besiege the World's churches with her ecumenical movement. The only way to join all the churches together, is they have to accept they all worship "one God". This is a heresy.

Stan · Oct 8, 2012

Heresy is to say God is NOT one God but three.

Xian Pugilist · Oct 8, 2012

Heresy is also to say that God is just one and not also three.

Stan said:
Heresy is to say God is NOT one God but three.

Groundzero · Oct 8, 2012

Xian Pugilist said:
Since this knowledge is super natural, and thus by definition beyond us, AND since it will not play a roll in salvation, nor Spiritual growth, why do we make such a deal out of it?

The fruits of this topic is intrinsic divisiveness, factions, fights, etc... and by definition that is fruit of the flesh... gal 5:19-21.

Shouldn't that tell us to leave it alone?

Wow. That's a verse taken out of context! How about I repost it in full . . . .

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

I would think, that recognizing Jesus for who he really is, is one of the MOST important things a Christian should be do. Since it was the blood of Jesus who saved us.

Joh_8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Raeneske said:
As for Jesus and His little ones being one, what do you think of this verse?

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. (John 17:23 KJV)

As you spoke of representations, Jesus actually explained that when you see Him, you see the Father because He did His Father's will entirely.

I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. (John 17:6 KJV)

As Isaiah 28:10 says, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little. Here lies the key to finding the truth about all things that Christ said. When he made the statement, you have seen Him, then you have seen the Father, he regarded it towards the Fact that he manifested His Father's name (character) perfectly in this world. Everywhere Christ went, did He the work of His Father. He truly could say, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father".
As Jesus's Father was manifested in Him, so will Jesus be manifested in us who follow Jesus. If you have a true Christian, you have seen Jesus. If you smite one, you have smitten Jesus. He who rejects Jesus, has rejected the Father, because the Father sent Him. And now Jesus bids us to go everywhere preaching the Gospel.

Creation actually is not attributed to one. The word God in Genesis, is plural. In perfect English it reada, "In the Beginning God's Created the Heavens and Earth". So right off the bat, it teaches plural amounts.

In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost are Three great powers in Heaven.

As for this doctrine of the Trinity, it needs not be held onto by Christians. It is what Rome has used to besiege the World's churches with her ecumenical movement. The only way to join all the churches together, is they have to accept they all worship "one God". This is a heresy.

The Believer is filled with the Holy Ghost, which is the spirit of Jesus. The human body of Jesus was filled with the spirit of the Almighty God. It was Jesus' human nature talking here, not his divine. As deity, he WAS the Father that indwelt the body of Christ. You will NEVER understand Jesus, until you recognize that he had dual natures: humanity and deity.

The explanation of representation does NOT explain Jesus' statement, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father." Can I walk up to someone and say, "If you have seen me, you have seen Jesus?" No! Because while I represent Jesus, I'm not Jesus himself. I might be able to follow Jesus, but that does NOT make me Jesus. No matter how hard I try to be like Jesus, I will NEVER be able to say, "If you have seen me, you have seen Jesus."
Just as you will never be able to say, "If you have seen me, you have seen my spouse."

Oh my gosh! You're kidding right? Elohim means plural alright. Plural of WHAT?! Plural of Gods, no. Plural of majesty/power, yes.

1Ki 11:33 Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and to keep my statutes and my judgments, as did David his father.

Was Ashtoreth one or three? Chemosh? Milcom? I think not! The people of that day attributed this word, Elohim, to God, because God's ability was beyond their understanding. A singular noun wasn't good enough. They used a plural, in order to convey the size, awe, and respect they had for their god, whoever he was.

Jdg 6:31 And Joash said unto all that stood against him, Will ye plead for Baal? will ye save him? he that will plead for him, let him be put to death whilst it is yet morning: if he be a god, let him plead for himself, because one hath cast down his altar.
Was Baal one or three? One! Elohim is plural of WHAT? Not gods.

So these three great powers in heaven all had the same name?

A heresy? Would you be able to define heresy for me from Scripture?

I've got something for everyone to think about:

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

What was the gospel that Paul preached?

1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Paul's message was not about God in the beginning: it was not about God the Son coming to earth: it was not about some anointed man. IT was ALL about CHRIST being CRUCIFIED! And note, to the Jews, a stumblingblock, because they refused to accept Jesus. But to the Greeks, foolishness, because the idea that God could fuse himself into a body and then die for humanity, really is stupendous! But to both, who are called, there is a power in this message.
Who was Jesus? Just some man? Just one third? Or was he the God of eternity who loved us so much that he gave himself?

Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Xian Pugilist · Oct 8, 2012

Groundzero said:
Wow. That's a verse taken out of context! How about I repost it in full . . . .

You accuse but you don't show how. HOW is it out of context. If you have a theological topic that does NOTHING but cause factions and dissension, the fruit of that is what Paul says comes from the flesh. So, praytell HOW is that out of context?

Groundzero said:
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

I would think, that recognizing Jesus for who he really is, is one of the MOST important things a Christian should be do.

I used to think it was too, until I tried to prove it was in scripture. Do you think JESUS/GOD wont' save someone if they don't make a good trinitarian argument? You don't have to acknowledge Trinity, just acknowledge His purpose, and His death. There is NOTHING that says you need call Him God to be saved, if you believe it is I would fire your pastor for you and get a real one.

Groundzero said:
Since it was the blood of Jesus who saved us.

WAIT, I thought it was knowing that he was GOD, make up your mind.

Groundzero said:
Joh_8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Tell you a little secret. If you don't have the LOVE RIGHT, but make the best trinitarian argument in the history of mankind, you are going to hell.

Would you rather spend time on theology/philosophy or learning to love as God does?

Stan · Oct 8, 2012

Xian Pugilist said:
Heresy is also to say that God is just one and not also three.

Deuteronomy 6:4 (NIV)
Mark 12:28-34 (NIV)
Galatians 3:20 (NIV)

Now if you actually think that the Bible is speaking heresy, then you do have a real problem.

Xian Pugilist said:
Tell you a little secret. If you don't have the LOVE RIGHT, but make the best trinitarian argument in the history of mankind, you are going to hell.
Would you rather spend time on theology/philosophy or learning to love as God does?

I find it rather disingenuous of anyone to make a statement like this when they feed the actual argument. This comes across as a fake pious attitude that is not very truthful in nature. I would rather spend time getting to know exactly who God is, and if that means understanding a Tri-une nature as depicted in the Bible then yes it makes a difference.

Groundzero · Oct 8, 2012

Xian Pugilist said:
You accuse but you don't show how. HOW is it out of context. If you have a theological topic that does NOTHING but cause factions and dissension, the fruit of that is what Paul says comes from the flesh. So, praytell HOW is that out of context?

I used to think it was too, until I tried to prove it was in scripture. Do you think JESUS/GOD wont' save someone if they don't make a good trinitarian argument? You don't have to acknowledge Trinity, just acknowledge His purpose, and His death. There is NOTHING that says you need call Him God to be saved, if you believe it is I would fire your pastor for you and get a real one.

WAIT, I thought it was knowing that he was GOD, make up your mind.

Tell you a little secret. If you don't have the LOVE RIGHT, but make the best trinitarian argument in the history of mankind, you are going to hell.

Would you rather spend time on theology/philosophy or learning to love as God does?

Oh. Sorry. My apologies, Xian Puligist. I mis-understood your quote about the works of the flesh. Terrible sorry about that.

I take back my comment about twisting Scripture and out of context.

Lol. I'm not Trinitarian. In fact, quite alot of Trinitarians consider me a heretic, because I recognize ONE God, Jesus. Not some trinity.

And where is my quote for that smart remark?

I'd rather know Christ. Because without him, I would still be lost in my sin.
I don't believe that you will go to hell just because you believe Jesus isn't God, or the Trinity, or whatever. That is NOT my decision. But I believe that Christians should do their utmost to know who Jesus really was. I believe that Jesus is the ONE and only God of the Bible. So far, all you've managed to do, is twist, assume, and misquote. Unless you can manage a proper reply which is sensible, I won't be replying to you again.

Just because something causes strife, doesn't mean it's a work of the flesh. Jesus himself declared that he would bring division, and that's what we see everywhere.

Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
Luk 12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
Luk 12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Xian Pugilist · Oct 8, 2012

Stan said:
Deuteronomy 6:4 (NIV)
Mark 12:28-34 (NIV)
Galatians 3:20 (NIV)

Now if you actually think that the Bible is speaking heresy, then you do have a real problem.

So, you deny that the Trinity is together AND separate then? Why didn't you just say you kicked all the creeds out the window, save us both some time. None of your vss contradict what I said, but you aren't reading what I said just what you wish to see.

Stan said:
I find it rather disingenuous of anyone to make a statement like this when they feed the actual argument. This comes across as a fake pious attitude that is not very truthful in nature. I would rather spend time getting to know exactly who God is, and if that means understanding a Tri-une nature as depicted in the Bible then yes it makes a difference.

Stan, I find it disingenuous for someone to posture as much as you do in a forum. I don't put forth any pious facade, I deny piosity. There is a long post of the things I am not around here somewhere.

So you can try to repackage and redefine me all you want, but until you figure out what I said and stop burning strawmen, you hold no value to me.

Groundzero said:
Oh. Sorry. My apologies, Xian Puligist. I mis-understood your quote about the works of the flesh. Terrible sorry about that.

I take back my comment about twisting Scripture and out of context.

Lol. I'm not Trinitarian. In fact, quite alot of Trinitarians consider me a heretic, because I recognize ONE God, Jesus. Not some trinity.

And where is my quote for that smart remark?

I'd rather know Christ. Because without him, I would still be lost in my sin.
I don't believe that you will go to hell just because you believe Jesus isn't God, or the Trinity, or whatever. That is NOT my decision. But I believe that Christians should do their utmost to know who Jesus really was. I believe that Jesus is the ONE and only God of the Bible. So far, all you've managed to do, is twist, assume, and misquote. Unless you can manage a proper reply which is sensible, I won't be replying to you again.

Just because something causes strife, doesn't mean it's a work of the flesh. Jesus himself declared that he would bring division, and that's what we see everywhere.

Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
Luk 12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
Luk 12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

If you want me to address each point tell me, I just don't wanna hijack the thread with irrelevant things.

I dont' care how you look at Trinity. If you do the works you were saved to do, which is to learn and grow in loving neighbor, then God will change you and you will be just fine.

So, I really don't have a horse in that race....you and God can figure it out.

Is Jesus God?

Is Jesus God?

Yes

No

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