Tithe...NOT a christian doctrine

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TruthSeeker2012

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I'm not going to show you anything. But I will repeat - Get behind me satan.

Wow, this is the second time you have accused me of being Satan. It seems my questions have really gotten to you and made you very angry and defensive.

Do you truly and sincerely believe that I am the created angel that was once in heaven and was thrown out? You have accused me of being Satan more than once now and it fancinates me that you really believe that Satan is using a keyboard and the internet to talk with you.

And then when I ask you to show me in Scripture anything that I have taught in error, you refuse, and call me Satan instead. Interesting.

I am very sorry HeRoseFromTheDead, it seems my questions have really angered and frustrated you.

Just some honest feedback however, if I am a sincerely born again Christian with the Holy Spirit in my heart, yet you accuse me of being Satan instead, then you may be in danger of committing the eternal sin. Read Mark chapter 3 please, so be careful.

God bless.
 

THE Gypsy

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I am very sorry HeRoseFromTheDead, it seems my questions have really angered and frustrated you.

I haven't been around much lately, however...That statement would be a little easier to believe if within your 26 posts you hadn't "angered and frustrated" more than one member on this board.

IF you are serious about your faith and quest...You just might want to adjust your presentation.
 

TruthSeeker2012

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I haven't been around much lately, however...That statement would be a little easier to believe if within your 26 posts you hadn't "angered and frustrated" more than one member on this board.

IF you are serious about your faith and quest...You just might want to adjust your presentation.

I haven't angered or frustrated anyone, those 2 people you refer to were angered and frustrated by my QUESTIONS, not by me. If I had never asked those certain questions, they would never have gotten angry towards me and not accused me of being Satan. Certain questions really anger and frustrate certain people, and instead of lovingly and maturely and patiently answering the questions, they resort to accusing the person of being rude and being Satan etc. They say and do anything to avoid answering certain questions.

Many people in Bible were killed because they challenged certain people, would you tell them to adjust their presentation as well? John the Baptist, Stephen etc?

Now back on topic...so what about you Gypsy, would you be willing to answer my questions directly and honestly and maturely without attacking my character and without attacking me personally and without trying to tell me what a bad person I am. Are you willing to leave the personal attacks out of it and just focus on the questions?

God bless.
 

jiggyfly

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WK, if you worked full time as a Pastor and had many Christians rely on you, and you had a family and kids to feed and shelter, then tell me, how should you, as a Pastor, get paid for your full time work? OR do you believe a full time Pastor who has a wife and children to feed and to provide shelter for, should never be paid any money to pay his bills and should be homeless living on the streets?

God bless.

Is it wrong for a pastor to work a regular job to support his family and allow everyone in the flock to take on some of the responsibilities necessary for the various ministries to the body?
Scriptural tithing is not even common among believers today and many are ignorant of what was entailed in tithing scriptural because they only know what they have been taught.

There have been more than ample posts made in this thread to show that the tithe was implemented for Israel in the old covenant only. You may want to read them before you reply and then make a post with scriptures to support your opinion.

Mark, I have to wonder why your post is so condescending and attacking, just because I showed in Bible that tithing is still a biblical principle, you took it to a personal level and didn't focus on the topic alone, you instead began attacking me personally and saying I am "funny" in a very condesceding manner. Jesus would never do that, so why do you? That shows a lot about a persons fruit and by your fruit I now know you.

You can always tell immature Christians from mature Christians when you debate them...immature Christians will always take the topic to a personal level and laugh at, or mock or try to put down the person they are debating, HOWEVER, spiritually mature Christians leave the personal attacks out of it and only focus on the topic.

Your post is biblical inaccurate and you have added meaning and words to Bible which are not there, and you have gone as far as adding words to Jesus' mouth, when the Lord has not spoken.

People who refuse to tithe and spend years in trying to disprove tithing, simply lack trust in God to provide for them and their families and instead they turn to MONEY to trust in to provide for them and their familes. That's why they cannot bring themselves to give away the first 10% because they will reason they cannot afford it, showing they worship and trust in money as NUMBER 1 and God as NUMBER 2. Bible says you cannot worship money and God. But then people will resort to self deception and tell themselves that they do not worship or trust in money, but on the other hand, they refuse to tithe, because deep deep down, they are afraid they will be left short on money and not be able to pay their bills.

Some people are so greedy and hate the idea of placing God as number 1 that they will refuse to tithe, so instead they make false excuses, contradict Scripture, in a desperate attempt to avoid tithing. But I tell you Mark, it's your choice, but you are robbing God in the process, Malachi chapter 3.

And I have a question for you Mark...if your Pastor works full time for the Church, to support you and your family and everyone else, yet he also needs to feed his family and pay living expenses to survive, then according to you Mark, how should he be paid a full time wage to work full time as a Pastor and feed his family?

And I came to realise why you have gone astray on this topic Mark and why you have twisted Scripture, it's because you admitted you have strayed OUTSIDE of the 66 books of Scripture to find your answers about tithing, which was a BIG MISTAKE by you. You have as a result, not trusted in the 66 books of Scripture to teach you in fullness about topics, and gone to sinners to explain it to you, using their own exegesis and as a result due to eisegesis, you have now read into Scripture something which doesn't appear in Scripture, but only appears in someone' else interpetation. You admitted you have turned to around 60 other books, outside of the 66 books, yet only Scripture was 100% inspired by God, and yet you turned to external books. I have seen this trategy happen often, we see it in CULTS too all the time, they turn to external books from the 66 books of Scripture and are led astray in doctrine.

May I encourage you Mark to come back to Scripture and Scripture alone and then you will learn the truth about tithing and other topics.

As for me, tithing is written in my heart by God the day I came to God 12 years ago. And I delight in tithing and it shows that God is my number 1 and not money. I wouldn't even need anyone to prove tithing is in Bible to me, because it's alrerady written in my heart and I have already seen enough evidence and proof from Jesus and Bible that New Covenant Christians should still tithe, especially in these last days, where money has become such a god and idol to so many people, we need tithing now more than ever, even among Christians, many trust in and worship money indirectly, and tithing is a way for them to place God number 1 again.

Many people like you Mark spend years and years, and reading external book after external book, in a desperate attempt to find justification to rob God and to not tithe, yet as a Christian, you should rather be looking for an excuse to tithe, and not the other way around.

Malachi 3:8-10 "Will a mere mortal rob God? Yet you rob me. "But you ask, ‘How are we robbing you?’ "In tithes and offerings. You are under a curse—your whole nation—because you are robbing me. Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it.

God bless.

Do you have any new covenant scriptures that mention tithing is required?
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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Is it wrong for a pastor to work a regular job to support his family and allow everyone in the flock to take on some of the responsibilities necessary for the various ministries to the body?

What a refreshing comment. I long to find a body of people committed to this.
 

TruthSeeker2012

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Do you have any new covenant scriptures that mention tithing is required?

I do indeed, and tithing is a NC teaching and is still valid, and that's easy for anyone to see if they truly loved the truth. It's only people who hate the idea of giving to God their first 10% of ALL INCOME, that try to look for ways to escape it, because they trust in MONEY more than God to provide for themselves.

1Cor 9: 1-14 is the clearest passage in the NT regarding tithing. Paul refers to those who worked in the temple were paid from the monies that went into the temple. Then he says, "in the same way those who preach the gospel should live from the Gospel." It seems that he says that the way the Levites were paid was the model for the NT era preacher. The church at Corinth was totally Gentile - 1 Cor 12:2 - and here Paul tells these guys that they should tithe in 1 Cor 9.

People were tithing in Paul's day BUT TO JESUS. Hebrews 7:8 Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives.

THIS IS CLEAR EVIDENCE THAT TITHING WAS PRACTISED TO JESUS - in Paul's day the Jews who had not accepted Jesus tithed to the levites still - however Jesus received as tithes - back then and still now - and in 1 COr 9 Paul says that we pass them onto the ministers.

Matt 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices-- mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law-- justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.


The Bible is very clear for anyone who earnstly seeks the truth, that tithing is a New Covenant principle, and God knows, we need it more than EVER in history now as humans have gone astray and become worshippers of money. Tithing shows us and God that we completely trust in God as our number 1 to provide for us. Yet sadly, many Christians in the world are NOT tithing because they fear being left short money to pay their bills. But thank God many Christians are tithing and they show that their FIRST 10% of ALL INCOME goes to God and that they trust to survive on the other 90% and have complete faith in God. They worship God as their number one and not money!

Ask yourself honestly, why do you refuse to tithe? Do you reason that you cannot afford it? Do you fear being left short? Answer honestly, remember God is listening.

And I am always amazed how a supposedely Christian has to be told that they should tithe, I would tithe anyway because giving and placing God as my number 1 is already in my heart. When I came to Christ 12 years ago and was born again, I never needed to be told to give and tithe, it came naturally for me and was a delight. I want to tithe, yet it seems many people do not want to tithe. Interesting difference between people isnt it? Food for thought.

God bless.
 

jiggyfly

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In case you are unaware much of Mathew is an account of Jesus' teachings under the old covenant. The new covenant didn't begin until after His death. The other scriptures mention nothing of believers tithing, seems that maybe you are confusing giving with tithing.

I'll give you another try to give new covenant scriptures that support your opinion.
 

TruthSeeker2012

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In case you are unaware much of Mathew is an account of Jesus' teachings under the old covenant. The new covenant didn't begin until after His death. The other scriptures mention nothing of believers tithing, seems that maybe you are confusing giving with tithing.

I'll give you another try to give new covenant scriptures that support your opinion.

I have an idea...how about you continue to refuse to tithe and I will continue to tithe. Problem solved:)

Tithing is part of my life, it's written into my heart from God, and I will continue to tithe and show God He is my number 1 whom I trust and worship. Money does not come first in my life and tithing is an extension of showing that.

I have studied this topic for over 12 years, I clearly see tithing as a valid and current biblical principle, and I will continue to do tithe. And you are free to not tithe, that choice is between you and your God.

God bless.
 

jiggyfly

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I have an idea...how about you continue to refuse to tithe and I will continue to tithe. Problem solved:)

Tithing is part of my life, it's written into my heart from God, and I will continue to tithe and show God He is my number 1 whom I trust and worship. Money does not come first in my life and tithing is an extension of showing that.

I have studied this topic for over 12 years, I clearly see tithing as a valid and current biblical principle, and I will continue to do tithe. And you are free to not tithe, that choice is between you and your God.

God bless.

Thanks.
 

marksman

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Mark, I have to wonder why your post is so condescending and attacking, just because I showed in Bible that tithing is still a biblical principle, you took it to a personal level and didn't focus on the topic alone, you instead began attacking me personally and saying I am "funny" in a very condesceding manner. Jesus would never do that, so why do you? That shows a lot about a persons fruit and by your fruit I now know you.


COMMENT: If you think telling the truth is condescending, that is your problem, not mine. The fact is, you are funny because you have this weird idea that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

You can always tell immature Christians from mature Christians when you debate them...immature Christians will always take the topic to a personal level and laugh at, or mock or try to put down the person they are debating, HOWEVER, spiritually mature Christians leave the personal attacks out of it and only focus on the topic.

COMMENT: “You generation of vipers” Jesus must have been immature.

Your post is biblical inaccurate and you have added meaning and words to Bible which are not there, and you have gone as far as adding words to Jesus' mouth, when the Lord has not spoken.

COMMENT: Thank you for your opinion which is no more than an ad hominine PERSONAL ATTACK.

People who refuse to tithe and spend years in trying to disprove tithing, simply lack trust in God to provide for them and their families and instead they turn to MONEY to trust in to provide for them and their familes. That's why they cannot bring themselves to give away the first 10% because they will reason they cannot afford it, showing they worship and trust in money as NUMBER 1 and God as NUMBER 2.

Comment: This statement is ridiculous in the extreme. Tithing is robbing God because you only give 10% and keep 90% for yourself. That is selfish with all the poverty amongst Christians in the world today. Despite your legalistic imposition, I am glad to say that 10% never enters my head. When I ask God what to give, I give what he says. At times it has been 100%, so that blows your theory out of the water.

Bible says you cannot worship money and God.But then people will resort to self deception and tell themselves that they do not worship or trust in money, but on the other hand, they refuse to tithe, because deep deep down, they are afraid they will be left short on money and not be able to pay their bills.

COMMENT: If you only give God 10% how can you be short of money?

Some people are so greedy and hate the idea of placing God as number 1 that they will refuse to tithe, so instead they make false excuses, contradict Scripture, in a desperate attempt to avoid tithing. But I tell you Mark, it's your choice, but you are robbing God in the process, Malachi chapter 3.

COMMENT: First, I don’t live under the old covenant. Second, your accusation against me is totally offensive as you seem to be speaking as though you know God’s mind and I don’t. Arrogant in the extreme.

And I have a question for you Mark...if your Pastor works full time for the Church, to support you and your family and everyone else, yet he also needs to feed his family and pay living expenses to survive, then according to you Mark, how should he be paid a full time wage to work full time as a Pastor and feed his family?

COMMENT: I don’t work full time for the church and expect to get paid for it. I work full time for the church and do it as a labour of love and let God meet my needs. Apart from the fact not once does the New Testament say anything about paying a pastor to run the church. There isn’t one single verse to base that on.

And I came to realise why you have gone astray on this topic Mark and why you have twisted Scripture, it's because you admitted you have strayed OUTSIDE of the 66 books of Scripture to find your answers about tithing, which was a BIG MISTAKE by you.

COMMENT: I am sorry to say but this comment makes it very obvious that you have delusions of grandeur.

You have as a result, not trusted in the 66 books of Scripture to teach you in fullness about topics, and gone to sinners to explain it to you, using their own exegesis and as a result due to eisegesis, you have now read into Scripture something which doesn't appear in Scripture, but only appears in someone' else interpetation.

COMMENT: Now you are getting pathetic. You obviously are of a very low intelligence if you think that I would consult unbelievers about the practice of tithing.

You admitted you have turned to around 60 other books, outside of the 66 books, yet only Scripture was 100% inspired by God, and yet you turned to external books.

COMMENT: As do millions of other Christians when they want to broaden their understanding of a topic. Once again you are being bombastic and offensive in suggesting that the books written by Christians are inspired by satan.

I have seen this trategy happen often, we see it in CULTS too all the time, they turn to external books from the 66 books of Scripture and are led astray in doctrine.

COMMENT: And the tragedy I have seen happening is people who put themselves up to be the inspired interpreter of God’s word and everyone who disagrees with them is taught by satan.

May I encourage you Mark to come back to Scripture and Scripture alone and then you will learn the truth about tithing and other topics.

COMMENT: May I suggest you start using some common graces and then you will learn that you are not God.

As for me, tithing is written in my heart by God the day I came to God 12 years ago.

COMMENT: 12 years ago! You are just a baby. I came to God 58 years ago. In that time, God has blessed me with a theological degree, Eldership of two churches, leadership of two para-church ministries, three university degrees, bringing revival to a church, being a member of church for 10 years that was in revival for 30 years, and given me the spiritual gift of teaching.

And I delight in tithing and it shows that God is my number 1 and not money.

COMMENT: If you tithe God is not your number one. Anyone who only gives God 10% puts God very low on the ladder.

I wouldn't even need anyone to prove tithing is in Bible to me, because it's alrerady written in my heart and I have already seen enough evidence and proof from Jesus and Bible that New Covenant Christians should still tithe, especially in these last days, where money has become such a god and idol to so many people, we need tithing now more than ever, even among Christians, many trust in and worship money indirectly, and tithing is a way for them to place God number 1 again

COMMENT: As I said, if you tithe 10%, you certainly do not make God number one. You make him number 10.

Many people like you Mark spend years and years, and reading external book after external book, in a desperate attempt to find justification to rob God and to not tithe, yet as a Christian, you should rather be looking for an excuse to tithe, and not the other way around.

COMMENT: If you tithe under the new covenant, you are robbing God. The instruction is clear to give as the Lord has blessed you. No mention of a tithe.

Malachi 3:8-10 "Will a mere mortal rob God? Yet you rob me. "But you ask, ‘How are we robbing you?’ "In tithes and offerings. You are under a curse—your whole nation—because you are robbing me. Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it.

COMMENT: I am not a Jew.

P.S. Please stop posting in red as it makes it difficult for colour blind people to read.
 

7angels

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i don't usually get involved in these types of arguements for the reasons of personal attacks on each other but truth seeker is correct that tithing is biblical. i can post scripture and explain it to you if you prefer. i have not read many of the prvious posts so if you want me to explain it may be similiar to what has already been said.

by the way truthseeker you should rejoice when people call you satan. it is percecution of Christ and you will be blessed for it.
 

TruthSeeker2012

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COMMENT: If you think telling the truth is condescending, that is your problem, not mine. ...



COMMENT: I am not a Jew. ..

Thank you, that's been my point all along when some people have attacked me personally and even accused me of being Satan. Me telling the truth is not me being condescending.

Secondly, are you a Spiritual Jew?

Thirdly, were the 10 Commandments ONLY given to the Jews and were never given to the Gentiles? If yes, then are Gentiles FREE to willfully break all the 10 Commandments? Yes or No? OR should Gentiles also keep the 10 Commandments? Yes or No?

I avoided the rest of your comments because they were not biblically centered and contained a lot of personal attacks upon me.

Please may I remind you, focus on debating the topic alone and please leave the personal attacks upon me out of it. Thank you.

God bless.

i don't usually get involved in these types of arguements for the reasons of personal attacks on each other but truth seeker is correct that tithing is biblical. i can post scripture and explain it to you if you prefer. i have not read many of the prvious posts so if you want me to explain it may be similiar to what has already been said.

by the way truthseeker you should rejoice when people call you satan. it is percecution of Christ and you will be blessed for it.

Thank you my friend for your encouraging words. I came here to maturely debate doctrine, but since my first day, I have been accused of being Satan by a couple of people.

Thank you for recognizing the truth and for sharing the truth about tithing and about those who are accused of being Satan. The religious people did the same to Jesus in Jesus' day.

God bless your heart, and once again thank you, you are the first person on here who has not personally attacked me.

Please do.

I have already shown solid Scripture from New Testament that tithing is still a biblical principle, but you rejected it. Tithing is either in the heart or not. But I do know one thing, God placed tithing into my heart and for me and many other millions of Christians around the globe, we all clearly see that tithing is taught in Bible for New Covenant Christians.

But many reject tithing, and they reject biblical support for tithing and look for any justification to NOT tithe, and that is between them and their God and they can answer to God for that at Judgement day.

As for me, I love tithing and it shows God that He is number 1 and that I trust in Him BEFORE money, hence, my FIRST 10% of ALL income goes back to God who gave it, and that shows I worship and trust in God FIRST to provide for me in life and not money.

God bless.
 

marksman

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Thank you, that's been my point all along when some people have attacked me personally and even accused me of being Satan. Me telling the truth is not me being condescending.
COMMENT: Can you show me where I said you telling the truth was condescending?

Secondly, are you a Spiritual Jew?
COMMENT: Huh?

Thirdly, were the 10 Commandments ONLY given to the Jews and were never given to the Gentiles? If yes, then are Gentiles FREE to willfully break all the 10 Commandments? Yes or No? OR should Gentiles also keep the 10 Commandments? Yes or No?
COMMENTS: Huh? Where is tithing in the 10 commandments.

I avoided the rest of your comments because they were not biblically centered and contained a lot of personal attacks upon me.
COMMENTS: As they say, the truth hurts.

Please may I remind you, focus on debating the topic alone and please leave the personal attacks upon me out of it. Thank you.
COMMENT: Yes Mr. Pharisee?. Did you know how they got that name? Their own opinion was as far as they could see.

As for me, I love tithing and it shows God that He is number 1 and that I trust in Him BEFORE money, hence, my FIRST 10% of ALL income goes back to God who gave it, and that shows I worship and trust in God FIRST to provide for me in life and not money.

COMMENT: If you give 10% you don't trust in God to provide for you in life. You are trusting in your 90% which you keep. That my dear fellow is simple mathematics. Giving 10% makes it quite clear that God is far from number 1 in your life.

I would like to ask anyone, not just ts2012 as to which of these statements are personal attacks or a statement of fact and which ones ts2012 is avoiding because it doesn't fit his theology.

1. Thank you for your opinion

2. When I ask God what to give, I give what he says. At times it has been 100%, so that blows your theory out of the water.

3. If you only give God 10% how can you be short of money?

4. First, I don’t live under the old covenant

5. I work full time for the church and do it as a labour of love and let God meet my needs.

6. Apart from the fact not once does the New Testament say anything about paying a pastor to run the church. There isn’t one single verse to base that on.


7. You obviously are of a very low intelligence if you think that I would consult unbelievers about the practice of tithing.

8. Once again you are being bombastic and offensive in suggesting that the books written by Christians are inspired by satan.

9. And the tragedy I have seen happening is people who put themselves up to be the inspired interpreter of God’s word and everyone who disagrees with them is taught by satan.

10. 12 years ago! You are just a baby. I came to God 58 years ago

11. Anyone who only gives God 10% puts God very low on the ladder.

12. If you tithe under the new covenant, you are robbing God. The instruction is clear to give as the Lord has blessed you. No mention of a tithe.

13. I am not a Jew.


1Cor 9: 1-14 is the clearest passage in the NT regarding tithing.

The word "TITHING" does not appear once in this passage. Try again.
 

TruthSeeker2012

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COMMENT: Yes Mr. Pharisee?. ...

Can we have a single exchange without your personal attacks? I am willing if you are, are you?

And why do you keep saying you been a Christian for 58 years compared to my 12? Are you looking down on your brother?

Rom 14:10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.

Matthew 20:16 "So the last will be first, and the first will be last."

Do you have perfect interpretation and perfect understanding of entire Scripture?

If yes, do you really claim to be perfectly infallible?

If no, then tell me..what part of Scripture have you misinterpreted and misunderstood?

If you don't know, then do you agree and admit you could be teaching an erroneous doctrine and not know it?

God bless.
 

TruthSeeker2012

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A red herring and totally irrelevant and this chapter is about the gifts of the spirit. It has nothing to do with tithing.

Marksman, what do you think about all the millions of Christians who believe tithing is a New Covenant teaching and who love to tithe and who loves to show that God comes first in their lives and not money? How do you feel about us Christians who tithe?

God bless.
 

marksman

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Can we have a single exchange without your personal attacks? I am willing if you are, are you?

COMMENT: Can we have an exchange where you don’t play the sanctimonious ploy and you answer the question, which you have not done?

And why do you keep saying you been a Christian for 58 years compared to my 12? Are you looking down on your brother?

COMMENT: I don’t keep saying. I said it once. No, I am stating a fact which you seem unable to accept and you are implying that a 12 y.o knows as much as 58 y.o. The only 12 y.o. that spoke with authority was Jesus.

Do you have perfect interpretation and perfect understanding of entire Scripture?

COMMENT: Do you?

If yes, do you really claim to be perfectly infallible?

COMMENT: Do you claim to be perfectly infallible as you seem to.

If no, then tell me..what part of Scripture have you misinterpreted and misunderstood?

COMMENT: Unlike you, I always want to learn more, that is why I read other people’s teaching on subjects.

If you don't know, then do you agree and admit you could be teaching an erroneous doctrine and not know it?

COMMENT: No to both.

Now, perhaps you would like to answer my comments I have made that are statements of fact.

Marksman, what do you think about all the millions of Christians who believe tithing is a New Covenant teaching and who love to tithe and who loves to show that God comes first in their lives and not money? How do you feel about us Christians who tithe?

I don't pass judgment on what other people do. If they want to believe error that is between them and God.

When I was interviewed for the post of Principal of a Bible College, i was asked what my response would be to people who held different beliefs.

My answer was that I would not share my beliefs unless they asked me to and I would let them decide for themselves whether they agreed with me or not.

Now, perhaps you might like to answer my questions and statements.
 
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