Is Faith Healing Really from God?

Aunty Jane · Apr 26, 2022

Hello Iforrest, I don’t think you and I have interacted personally before, so I welcome the opportunity to dialogue with you....

lforrest said:
Many cults are started by false prophets speaking unilaterally from a lying spirit. By two or three witnesses a matter is established. For example if an Angel visits a prophet, and there is no verification of what he says in the word, or his prophecies fail. You should ignore that Angel.

So I wonder what two or three witnesses are there for the unique and controversial doctrines of the watchtower.

Would you like to discuss what you refer to as “the unique and controversial doctrines of the watchtower” since “The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society” is just that....a Bible Society used by Jehovah’s Witnesses to print Bibles and Bible literature for worldwide distribution. It is a legal entity, required by law to operate such a large facility with such wide distribution of its literature.

In recent years, the Internet has provided the means to distribute much of our literature digitally, so that literal printing has been scaled back, though many still prefer hard copy. All of our beliefs and publications are provided through our website, JW.ORG for those who want to see for themselves who we are first hand, rather than second hand from our opposers. As you may recall, Jesus had many opposers as well and warned his disciples that they too would receive the same treatment as he did. (John 15:18-21; Matthew 5:11-12)

Jehovah’s Witnesses are not “the Watchtower”. We use the watchtower as our logo because of how these were employed in ancient times. The guards would stand on duty in watch periods, 24 hours a day and the safety of all the city’s inhabitants was their responsibility. If they saw something approaching that was in the distance and unrecognisable, they would sound a warning of something approaching. The city was put on alert until identification was made, and if it was a threat of some enemy approaching, the men in the city were prepared to defend it. If it was a false alarm, and what was seen was not threatening, the men of the city stood down and all went back to business as usual.

I am sure you would find it enlightening to discuss some of what you consider to be ‘controversial’ and certainly ‘unique’ to us as Christians. We are not part of Christendom, having withdrawn from what became “orthodox” Christianity over a century ago...just before the period called “the time of the end” in Daniel’s prophesy began. (Daniel 12:4, 9-10)

We are Bible students first and foremost, having formed our doctrines from scripture alone. All of our meetings are for Bible instruction, study, and training for the work that Jesus assigned all of his disciples to do.....to ’preach the good news of the Kingdom of God’ and make disciples. (Matthew 28:19-20; Matthew 24:14)
This is a work that Jesus personally assigned and that he said he would back by means of God’s spirit. It’s one of the “unique” things about us....we do what Jesus commanded, because people’s lives are at stake. If they don’t hear the message, how will they know what the Kingdom of God is....and what it will accomplish? So what is the Kingdom of God?

I ask this question frequently because I usually find that Christendom’s members, no matter what denomination they adhere to, do not have a clear understanding about what God’s Kingdom is, and therefore have no way to preach it, or to understand how it “comes” or what it will do for mankind. The coming of God’s Kingdom was the theme of Jesus’ entire ministry. But Christendom’s focus appears to be elsewhere.

If you would like to examine what we teach using scripture alone, I would be happy to discuss what we believe and why it is often considered “unique and controversial” by those who have been taught otherwise. I was raised in Christendom, so I already know your side of this story, but since most of those who see us as a “cult” really have no real knowledge about who we are or what we teach, I believe we can dispel the myths that circulate about us if people are not bigoted or closed minded. We are different it’s true...but then, so was Jesus among the people of his own religion.....and we know what the Orthodox ‘believers’ did to him.

Why do you believe that “two or three witnesses” to a matter was necessary for anything to be established according to God’s word? And who were these witnesses?
If you would like to start a thread to discuss these things without animosity, just FYI, I would be happy to do so.
We all claim to be Christians, so wouldn’t it be beneficial to see who lives up to the true definition of what that means? We might all learn something...?

I will respectfully await your reply.....

Mantis · Apr 26, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
What was the Word you got?

His sheep hear his voice...my testimony

Randy Kluth · Apr 26, 2022

Marymog said:
Wow Randy....Such a long answer. I read it 3 times and still can't find the answer to Paul's question. Is it in there and I missed it?

I guess I can ask the same question in a different way:

When you were an acolyte and assistant to the pastor at the Lutheran church and when you administered the bread and wine did you believe that the cup of wine that you were taking and giving to other parishioners was a participation in the blood of Christ? When you gave them and partook of the bread did you think that you and they were participating in the body of Christ?

Also, one can be baptized out of public view with only you and the baptizer present. So baptism does NOT have to be a "public display" to make it valid or to show other people that we have 'embraced Christ'. If you were alive in the NT times and one of the Apostles said to you, "Randy, now that you have chosen to embrace Christ as your life you need to rise and be baptized to wash away your sins." Would you disagree with him and tell that Apostle he made a mistake and that baptism doesn't wash away sins. Baptism is only a public act for everyone else to see that we have embraced Christ as our life?

Mary

Yes, I would disagree with the Apostle if he meant what you imply he meant. But I don't think he meant what you think he meant.

In my view, in telling someone to get saved and be baptized, it is not saying that the baptism is essential to the salvation. Rather, it is saying that he or she should get saved, and in public testimony show others that you've made this decision.

In other words, the salvation is central to the issue, and the water baptism a representation of the same. It's like saying, "Be thankful, and put an offering in the bucket, if you will." You can be thankful without making a donation, but the donation is a more than adequate way of expressing your gratitude.

In the same way, get saved and be baptized infers that baptism is purely the mode by which we express our salvation publicly.

The Communion was also a social event--not an individual event. All 12 disciples were present for the Lord's Supper. I don't see anywhere in Scriptures where we're told it is a ritual integral to salvation, indicating that whether people are present or not, one must do it--in private, if necessary.

It is a memory device--Jesus said so. It helps us to remember that we are to live in Christ, in exactly the way Christ represented it in his own body. We are to produce the same kind of righteousness that he did. In doing this act, we not only remember what he did, but we graphically show that we are continuing to do it.

When I was a child-Lutheran, we administered the elements with fear and trembling! I was afraid to spill a drop of wine, I was so afraid of disrespecting the representation of Christ's blood. The dedication of these common elements *is what makes them sacred!* I can't say that enough. It is *not* a transformation of bread and wine into actual flesh and blood, nor is there a mystical transformation into X spiritual thing.

Rather, we partake of Christ himself in the act of eating and drinking something that represents him. I accept the Protestant version that the elements are symbolic of the spiritual. But in partaking of them, we are in fact partaking of Christ, just as we *always do.* We are just remembering to always be doing this by practicing this ritual regularly. It is a sacred fellowship among the faithful. We treat the elements as sacred representations of Christ himself--it is not to be a worldly party.

Carl Emerson · Apr 26, 2022

Mantis said:
Ok I see. Well my whole Christian experience has been around this pain. I did get a word from Jesus about this pain twenty plus years ago. I don’t think it is going anywhere soon. I think God just gave me a break.

OK I have read your testimony and understand where you are coming from.

I still think you should prioritise finding a loving fellowship with mature leadership.

JohnPaul · Apr 27, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
OK I have read your testimony and understand where you are coming from.

I still think you should prioritise finding a loving fellowship with mature leadership.

This is what I have done, and couldn't be happier.

L.A.M.B. · Apr 29, 2022

Every good and PERFECT gift comes from the Father and w/o FAITH it is impossible to please him !

If after everything WE CAN DO has been done, then we see by faith that God can do what man can't.

Our bodies are a miraculous work,it can repair itself,be changed with exercise,muscles have memory too after only having been made from the dust of the earth!

Our God is awesome!

Jim B · May 1, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
Yes, I would disagree with the Apostle if he meant what you imply he meant. But I don't think he meant what you think he meant.

In my view, in telling someone to get saved and be baptized, it is not saying that the baptism is essential to the salvation. Rather, it is saying that he or she should get saved, and in public testimony show others that you've made this decision.

In other words, the salvation is central to the issue, and the water baptism a representation of the same. It's like saying, "Be thankful, and put an offering in the bucket, if you will." You can be thankful without making a donation, but the donation is a more than adequate way of expressing your gratitude.

In the same way, get saved and be baptized infers that baptism is purely the mode by which we express our salvation publicly.

The Communion was also a social event--not an individual event. All 12 disciples were present for the Lord's Supper. I don't see anywhere in Scriptures where we're told it is a ritual integral to salvation, indicating that whether people are present or not, one must do it--in private, if necessary.

It is a memory device--Jesus said so. It helps us to remember that we are to live in Christ, in exactly the way Christ represented it in his own body. We are to produce the same kind of righteousness that he did. In doing this act, we not only remember what he did, but we graphically show that we are continuing to do it.

When I was a child-Lutheran, we administered the elements with fear and trembling! I was afraid to spill a drop of wine, I was so afraid of disrespecting the representation of Christ's blood. The dedication of these common elements *is what makes them sacred!* I can't say that enough. It is *not* a transformation of bread and wine into actual flesh and blood, nor is there a mystical transformation into X spiritual thing.

Rather, we partake of Christ himself in the act of eating and drinking something that represents him. I accept the Protestant version that the elements are symbolic of the spiritual. But in partaking of them, we are in fact partaking of Christ, just as we *always do.* We are just remembering to always be doing this by practicing this ritual regularly. It is a sacred fellowship among the faithful. We treat the elements as sacred representations of Christ himself--it is not to be a worldly party.

I think that you are absolutely correct in what you write. I agree with your ideas concerning both baptism and "communion"; they both agree with what Scripture says.

Berserk · May 6, 2022

A reluctant non-Christian was nagged by his wife to bring their handicapped daughter to a Kathryn Kuhlman healing rally at the Los Angeles Shrine Auditorium. During the service, a creation miracle occurred in which the daughter was given hips, which she lacked due to a birth deformity. The man found Jesus through this miracle.

A friend, Dick, visited the House of the Virgin Mary at Ephesus. Dick joined a Footsteps of St. Paul tour despite torn tendons in his knee and paid for this risk with a lot of limping pain. He was scheduled for orthopedic surgery soon after his return. Seeing him limping in pain, a Turkish lady encouraged him to pour water on his knee from the healing spring by Mary's house, water that was available from a spigot. He poured the water into a bottle just to be polite! Back at his hotel, his pain increased; so his wife Mary Ann urged him to pour the water on his knee. Dick protested, "Why? It's just water; it won't make a difference!" Mary Ann replied, "Yes, but what do you have to lose?" So Dick poured the water and to his surprise he immediately felt better, but attributed this to a placebo effect.

When he got home, he had the knee surgery. When he recovered from the anaesthetic, the surgeon stood beside his bed with a frustrated expression on his face. He said, "I don't understand it, but when we cut you open your knee was perfectly normal and even the arthritis we found was now gone! And we had the MRIs and X-rays that confirmed the damage!" He was evidently afraid of a malpractice suit. Dick joyfully testified to his miracle in my UMC church.

So I later took the same Footsteps of St. Paul tour. When I climbed the little mountain with the crowds to visit the Virgin Mary's house, the young woman behind me fainted from awe and wonder at the sense of divine presence in the little house. Even our Muslim guide admitted that Mary's spring was used for divine healings!

Aunty Jane · May 6, 2022

Berserk said:
A reluctant non-Christian was nagged by his wife to bring their handicapped daughter to a Kathryn Kuhlman healing rally at the Los Angeles Shrine Auditorium. During the service, a creation miracle occurred in which the daughter was given hips, which she lacked due to a birth deformity. The man found Jesus through this miracle.

A friend, Dick, visited the House of the Virgin Mary at Ephesus. Dick joined a Footsteps of St. Paul tour despite torn tendons in his knee and paid for this risk with a lot of limping pain. He was scheduled for orthopedic surgery soon after his return. Seeing him limping in pain, a Turkish lady encouraged him to pour water on his knee from the healing spring by Mary's house, water that was available from a spigot. He poured the water into a bottle just to be polite! Back at his hotel, his pain increased; so his wife Mary Ann urged him to pour the water on his knee. Dick protested, "Why? It's just water; it won't make a difference!" Mary Ann replied, "Yes, but what do you have to lose?" So Dick poured the water and to his surprise he immediately felt better, but attributed this to a placebo effect.

When he got home, he had the knee surgery. When he recovered from the anaesthetic, the surgeon stood beside his bed with a frustrated expression on his face. He said, "I don't understand it, but when we cut you open your knee was perfectly normal and even the arthritis we found was now gone! And we had the MRIs and X-rays that confirmed the damage!" He was evidently afraid of a malpractice suit. Dick joyfully testified to his miracle in my UMC church.

So I later took the same Footsteps of St. Paul tour. When I climbed the little mountain with the crowds to visit the Virgin Mary's house, the young woman behind me fainted from awe and wonder at the sense of divine presence in the little house. Even our Muslim guide admitted that Mary's spring was used for divine healings!

If you compare the healings that took place in the first century with what has taken place in more modern times, you will sees a very big difference.

Take for example, the time when Jesus was followed by a large crowd of people who came to hear him speak.
Jesus’ miraculous cures supported the message he preached: “He went around throughout the whole of Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and preaching the good news of the kingdom and curing every sort of disease.” (Matthew 4:23) Jesus’ powerful works—which included not only healing the sick but also feeding the multitudes, controlling the elements, and even raising the dead—demonstrated what he will accomplish for obedient mankind under the rule of his Kingdom. It was a demonstration of things to come, not intended to be a permanent fixture.

FAITH healers explain that their power to heal does not work in every case. As can be imagined, this has led to problems. When sick people have relied completely on a faith healer, and the hoped-for miracle has not happened, at times the results have been serious. In some instances, people have died of diseases that could have perhaps been treated successfully in another way.

In the first century, there were no failures and no one was blamed for their lack of faith if such a failure occurred......they just never did. We cannot say that now.

And if faith healing worked for every person who came to Christ and his apostles, then if it was the same power of Holy Spirit, it would do the same today.....it clearly doesn’t. We do not see the dead raised to life or the miraculous provision of food for the starving ones....so what happened?

Can you tell me? Is it possible for the devil to deceive people by the exercise of his own power.....remember who it was who made Job so sick. So perhaps the devil can cause an illness in someone and then be the one to fix it, pretending to be God?......how would people even know? He is a deceiver...with thousands of years of experience.

Whatever the case, today’s miracles are nothing like the first century.....sometimes there were thousands of people who came to Jesus hoping for a cure.....he cured them all.

Berserk · May 6, 2022

Aunty Jane: "In the first century, there were no failures and no one was blamed for their lack of faith if such a failure occurred......they just never did. We cannot say that now."

Wrong!
First, the disciples tried and failed to heal the epileptic boy (Mark 8:18, 28).
Second, even Jesus tried and failed to heal some people in his home town, a failure creating skepticism and rejection (Mark 6:5-6--" OULD do no...except...").
Third, Paul's prayers for healing from his "thorn in the flesh" failed (2 Cor. 12:7-8).

Aunty Jane: "Can you tell me? Is it possible for the devil to deceive people by the exercise of his own power....."

First, in the case of modern exorcisms manifesting supernatural phenomena, "Satan cannot cast out Satan (Matthew 12:26)."
Second, Satan would not promote healings that bring glory to God and conversions just as my example and many modern healings illustrate.

Aunty Jane: "Whatever the case, today’s miracles are nothing like the first century....."

You just need to get out more--perhaps finding a church where God's healing touch has never lost its ancient power. In my Pentecostal church a deaf mute was healed and a ministry to the deaf established as a result. Pentecostal faith healer Smith Wigglesworth raised a dead man in front of witnesses.

"Very truly I tell you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do, and in fact will do greater works than these because I go to my Father (John 14:12)."
"..I will find out not the [God] talk of these arrogant people, but their power. For the kingdom of God depends not on [God] talk, but on power (1 Corinthians 4:19-20)."
"...having an outward form of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid them (2 Tim. 3:5)!"

And don't forget that Acts offer highlights of apostolic ministry, not standard experience. My life is full of miracles, but these are interspersed by long dry periods of frustration and disappointment.

Waiting on him · May 6, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
a theological echo chamber.

Aunty Jane · May 7, 2022

Berserk said:
Wrong!
First, the disciples tried and failed to heal the epileptic boy (Mark 8:18, 28).

Perhaps you are "wrong".......

Try Mark ch 9.
And this was an exorcism, not the curing of disease.
The reason given was the lack of faith of the disciples, not a lack of faith on the part of the demonized person.

Did I hear you say that you were an ex theology professor???? Good grief, you appear to quote scripture with the understanding of a child!

Second, even Jesus tried and failed to heal some people in his home town, a failure creating skepticism and rejection (Mark 6:5-6--" OULD do no...except...").

Expanding on why this was so, Mark tells us that while among those familiar with him in Nazareth,...."Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not dishonored except in his hometown and among his own relatives, and in his own household.” 5 And He could not do any miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. 6 And He was amazed at their unbelief." (NASB)
Even his half brothers did not exercise faith in him during his ministry, as well as the disbelief most of the population of Nazareth showed toward him. Familiarity had bred contempt, and as a result of the poor reception he received, he decided to do only a little of what he wanted to do at that time because the people of his hometown had seen him grow up and had great difficulty seeing him as anything but the Carpenter's son. The skepticism was not because he failed to do miracles.....they would have been wasted on them.
Matthew's account states....
"And He came to His hometown and began teaching them in their synagogue, with the result that they were astonished, and said, “Where did this man acquire this wisdom and these miraculous powers? 55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is His mother not called Mary, and His brothers, James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas? 56 And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man acquire all these things?” 57 And they took offense at Him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not dishonored except in his hometown and in his own household.” 58 And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief."(NASB)
They were an unreceptive and hostile audience....but he healed a few.

Third, Paul's prayers for healing from his "thorn in the flesh" failed (2 Cor. 12:7-8).

The apostles did not heal themselves or each other. The miracles were reserved for unbelievers in order to bring them to Christ.

Berserk said:
First, in the case of modern exorcisms manifesting supernatural phenomena, "Satan cannot cast out Satan (Matthew 12:26)."
Second, Satan would not promote healings that bring glory to God and conversions just as my example and many modern healings illustrate.

The scriptures you quote show a great lack of understanding of the context or background....Matthew 12:26 is Jesus response to the Pharisees accusing him of operating under the power of the devil....Jesus used a line of reasoning that silenced them.

Satan can and does disguise himself as an "angel of light".....deception is his game. Would he be interested in fooling people into accepting a form of Christianity, what is no such thing? Who are the "weeds" of Jesus' parable and "who" sowed the seeds. (Matthew 13:26-30; 36-43) More importantly "when" did he sow them?

Berserk said:
You just need to get out more--perhaps finding a church where God's healing touch has never lost its ancient power. In my Pentecostal church a deaf mute was healed and a ministry to the deaf established as a result. Pentecostal faith healer Smith Wigglesworth raised a dead man in front of witnesses.

I had to look this guy up.....if you want to believe that he did that, go ahead...I'll pass.

If you want to believe in the modern day "miracles" you can do that too......they wreak of satanic deception to me....they are nothing like the first century miracles....not even remotely.

Berserk said:
"Very truly I tell you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do, and in fact will do greater works than these because I go to my Father (John 14:12)."

Out of context and totally misinterpreted like most of the scriptures I see presented as proof for these things.
At the beginning of John 14, Jesus is clearly addressing members of his elect.....these included the apostles and others who received "the heavenly calling". (Hebrews 3:1) Jesus was speaking about the time period after his departure, where his apostles and disciples would continue his work and do even greater works than he did. Think about what that means......what "greater works" have we seen in modern times? NONE. I see no comparison at all.

"..I will find out not the [God] talk of these arrogant people, but their power. For the kingdom of God depends not on [God] talk, but on power (1 Corinthians 4:19-20)."

Out of context again.....This is Paul admonishing his fellow Christians....
"Therefore I urge you, be imitators of me. 17 For this reason I have sent to you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, and he will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, just as I teach everywhere in every church. 18 Now some have become arrogant, as though I were not coming to you. 19 But I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I shall find out, not the words of those who are arrogant, but their power. 20 For the kingdom of God is not in words, but in power. 21 What do you desire? That I come to you with a rod, or with love and a spirit of gentleness?" (NASB)

The apostles had the power and through the laying on of hands, could bestow the power of holy spirit on others....but with the death of the apostles, the gifts ceased....as they were not intended to be permanent in this world, ruled by the devil. (1 John 5:19)
Paul said that spiritual infants needed the miracles, but mature Christians would manifest the the more important aspects of Christian life...."faith, hope and love."

"but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. . . . .When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. . . . 13 But now faith, hope, and love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love." ( 1 Corinthians 13:11, 13 NASB)

"...having an outward form of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid them (2 Tim. 3:5)!"

Again Paul was discussing the "last days" and what we would expect to see in the behavioral traits of people living at that time.....the time we are living in right now....
"But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, slanderers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to a form of godliness although they have denied its power; avoid such people as these." (2 Timothy 3:1-5 NASB)

The power of godliness is shown by those who do the work that Jesus did...the preaching of the good news of God's Kingdom (Matthew 24:14)....where are the preachers...? (Matthew 10:11-14) They always seem to be MIA. Yet this preaching and disciple making work was commanded by Jesus...it wasn't optional. (Revelation 22:17)

Berserk said:
And don't forget that Acts offer highlights of apostolic ministry, not standard experience. My life is full of miracles, but these are interspersed by long dry periods of frustration and disappointment.

Your miracles are yours, and the Acts of the Apostles are just that....are you an apostle?

I have never experienced "long dry periods of frustration and disappointment".....is there something wrong with your Christianity?
The fruitage of God's spirit prevents such things. (Galatians 5:22-23)
Paul also wrote...
"Therefore we do not despair, but even if our physical body is wearing away, our inner person is being renewed day by day. 17 For our momentary, light suffering is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison 18 because we are not looking at what can be seen but at what cannot be seen. For what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal." (2 Corinthians 4:16-18 NET) Any suffering is "momentary and light"....not "frustrating" or "disappointing".....

There is quoting scripture....and there is actually knowing what the scripture means in its context......you know your theology perhaps, but your Bible knowledge is sadly lacking in quoting so many things out of context.

Waiting on him · May 7, 2022

Aunty Jane said:
Perhaps you are "wrong"....... Try Mark ch 9.
And this was an exorcism, not the curing of disease.
The reason given was the lack of faith of the disciples, not a lack of faith on the part of the demonized person.

Did I hear you say that you were an ex theology professor???? Good grief, you appear to quote scripture with the understanding of a child!

Expanding on why this was so, Mark tells us that while among those familiar with him in Nazareth,...."Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not dishonored except in his hometown and among his own relatives, and in his own household.” 5 And He could not do any miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. 6 And He was amazed at their unbelief." (NASB)
Even his half brothers did not exercise faith in him during his ministry, as well as the disbelief most of the population of Nazareth showed toward him. Familiarity had bred contempt, and as a result of the poor reception he received, he decided to do only a little of what he wanted to do at that time because the people of his hometown had seen him grow up and had great difficulty seeing him as anything but the Carpenter's son. The skepticism was not because he failed to do miracles.....they would have been wasted on them.
Matthew's account states....
"And He came to His hometown and began teaching them in their synagogue, with the result that they were astonished, and said, “Where did this man acquire this wisdom and these miraculous powers? 55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is His mother not called Mary, and His brothers, James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas? 56 And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man acquire all these things?” 57 And they took offense at Him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not dishonored except in his hometown and in his own household.” 58 And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief."(NASB)
They were an unreceptive and hostile audience....but he healed a few.

The apostles did not heal themselves or each other. The miracles were reserved for unbelievers in order to bring them to Christ.

The scriptures you quote show a great lack of understanding of the context or background....Matthew 12:26 is Jesus response to the Pharisees accusing him of operating under the power of the devil....Jesus used a line of reasoning that silenced them.

Satan can and does disguise himself as an "angel of light".....deception is his game. Would he be interested in fooling people into accepting a form of Christianity, what is no such thing? Who are the "weeds" of Jesus' parable and "who" sowed the seeds. (Matthew 13:26-30; 36-43) More importantly "when" did he sow them?

I had to look this guy up.....if you want to believe that he did that, go ahead...I'll pass.

If you want to believe in the modern day "miracles" you can do that too......they wreak of satanic deception to me....they are nothing like the first century miracles....not even remotely.

Out of context and totally misinterpreted like most of the scriptures I see presented as proof for these things.
At the beginning of John 14, Jesus is clearly addressing members of his elect.....these included the apostles and others who received "the heavenly calling". (Hebrews 3:1) Jesus was speaking about the time period after his departure, where his apostles and disciples would continue his work and do even greater works than he did. Think about what that means......what "greater works" have we seen in modern times? NONE. I see no comparison at all.

"..I will find out not the [God] talk of these arrogant people, but their power. For the kingdom of God depends not on [God] talk, but on power (1 Corinthians 4:19-20)."

Out of context again.....This is Paul admonishing his fellow Christians....
"Therefore I urge you, be imitators of me. 17 For this reason I have sent to you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, and he will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, just as I teach everywhere in every church. 18 Now some have become arrogant, as though I were not coming to you. 19 But I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I shall find out, not the words of those who are arrogant, but their power. 20 For the kingdom of God is not in words, but in power. 21 What do you desire? That I come to you with a rod, or with love and a spirit of gentleness?" (NASB)
The apostles had the power and through the laying on of hands, could bestow the power of holy spirit on others....but with the death of the apostles, the gifts ceased....as they were not intended to be permanent in this world, ruled by the devil. (1 John 5:19)
Paul said that spiritual infants needed the miracles, but mature Christians would manifest the the more important aspects of Christian life...."faith, hope and love."

"but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. . . . .When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. . . . 13 But now faith, hope, and love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love." ( 1 Corinthians 13:11, 13 NASB)

Again Paul was discussing the "last days" and what we would expect to see in the behavioral traits of people living at that time.....the time we are living in right now....
"But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, slanderers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to a form of godliness although they have denied its power; avoid such people as these." (2 Timothy 3:1-5 NASB)

The power of godliness is shown by those who do the work that Jesus did...the preaching of the good news of God's Kingdom (Matthew 24:14)....where are the preachers...? (Matthew 10:11-14) They always seem to be MIA. Yet this preaching and disciple making work was commanded by Jesus...it wasn't optional. (Revelation 22:17)

Your miracles are yours, and the Acts of the Apostles are just that....are you an apostle?

I have never experienced "long dry periods of frustration and disappointment".....is there something wrong with your Christianity?
The fruitage of God's spirit prevents such things. (Galatians 5:22-23)
Paul also wrote...
"Therefore we do not despair, but even if our physical body is wearing away, our inner person is being renewed day by day. 17 For our momentary, light suffering is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison 18 because we are not looking at what can be seen but at what cannot be seen. For what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal." (2 Corinthians 4:16-18 NET) Any suffering is "momentary and light"....not "frustrating" or "disappointing".....

There is quoting scripture....and there is actually knowing what the scripture means in its context......you know your theology perhaps, but your Bible knowledge is sadly lacking in quoting so many things out of context.[/QUOTE]
Matthew 10:23 KJV
[23] But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

you guys are just another religious group that place yourself into words spoken to an ethnic group nearly 2000 years ago.

Aunty Jane · May 7, 2022

Waiting on him said:
you guys are just another religious group that place yourself into words spoken to an ethnic group nearly 2000 years ago.

And if that is your opinion, then so be it. Your opinion or mine matters little in the big scheme of things......but it matters if we are mistaken about who God is, and what his miracles meant both back in the first century, and in modern times.

The Bible clearly links 'miracles' (powerful works) with a satanic apostasy that was foretold by Jesus himself.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, 9-12....Paul warned....
"However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken from your reason. . . . .
3 Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. . . . But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deceptive influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."

If we accept lies as truth, then we are fed by the "weeds" of counterfeit Christianity that Jesus said would be sown by the devil.
How can we know? That fact is, we won't if we are deluded. It is a deception we have chosen of our own free will, and we will be permitted to keep it right up until Christ's final judgment. Our choices have consequences. Soon, we will all know because our excuses will not be accepted by the one who will judge every one of us.

“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’" (Matthew 7:21-23)

That is the inconvenient truth...in order to "do the will of the Father" we first have to know what that is. Who does?

Desire Of All Nations · May 7, 2022

Berserk said:
Aunty Jane: "In the first century, there were no failures and no one was blamed for their lack of faith if such a failure occurred......they just never did. We cannot say that now."

Wrong!
First, the disciples tried and failed to heal the epileptic boy (Mark 8:18, 28).
Second, even Jesus tried and failed to heal some people in his home town, a failure creating skepticism and rejection (Mark 6:5-6--" OULD do no...except...").
Third, Paul's prayers for healing from his "thorn in the flesh" failed (2 Cor. 12:7-8).

This is a gross reading of scripture. Mar. 6:6 shows what the problem was: the people of Nazareth failed to exercise real faith in Jesus' ability to heal, not because His ability to heal was supposedly limited.

Secondly, you are basing your belief of what 2 Cor. 12:7-8 say on your personal opinion. People generally believe that Paul was suffering from a physical affliction, even while Paul literally stated in verse 7 that a messenger of Satan was allowed to harass him so his head wouldn't grow big about being an apostle. Paul made absolutely no mention in this passage about suffering from a physical ailment.

And don't forget that Acts offer highlights of apostolic ministry, not standard experience. My life is full of miracles, but these are interspersed by long dry periods of frustration and disappointment.

You say that Acts isn't supposed to be read as standard practice, but Paul completely disagrees with you in 2 Tim. 3:

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." - 2 Tim. 3:16-17

That's the whole point behind Jesus quoting Deut. 8:3 in Matt. 4:4 where He said man is supposed to live by every word that came from God. Every word that came from God is to be applied in a person's life as standard practice. If you aren't getting answers to your prayers, the most likely and obvious reason is because your relationship with God isn't as good as you want to think it is.

Berserk · May 8, 2022

Desire Of All Nations: "This is a gross reading of scripture. Mar. 6:6 shows what the problem was: the people of Nazareth failed to exercise real faith in Jesus' ability to heal, not because His ability to heal was supposedly limited."

Nope! 6:6 says Jesus "could do no" or "was unable to do any "due to their lack of faith. The reason for His inability is irrelevant to the point at issue--whether Jesus ever failed to heal when He wished to do so. The text does NOT say that He chose not to do so!

DOAN: "Secondly, you are basing your belief of what 2 Cor. 12:7-8 say on your personal opinion. People generally believe that Paul was suffering from a physical affliction, even while Paul literally stated in verse 7 that a messenger of Satan was allowed to harass him so his head wouldn't grow big about being an apostle. Paul made absolutely no mention in this passage about suffering from a physical ailment."

Nope! You are ignoring his expression "thorn in the flesh," which implies some sort of physical ailment. Indeed, Paul confesses that He had a "physical infirmity" that tried the Galatians' patience (Gal. 4:13-14).
This "thorn" was sharpened by Paul's vision problem, which the Galatians originally pitied:
"If it had been possible, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me (Gal. 4:15)."
To compensate for his visual handicap, Paul had to write his epistle in huge letters and probably normally dictated his epistles to a secretary:
"See what huge letters I create when I am writing with my own hand (Gal. 6:11)!"

DOAN: "You say that Acts isn't supposed to be read as standard practice, but Paul completely disagrees with you in 2 Tim. 3:"

Again, you miss the point: Acts provides the highlights of early apostolic ministry, not a description of a typical day in the life of the church over the decades. Similarly, my ministry has been accompanied by many miracles, but they are often far between.

chongjasmine83 · May 14, 2022

Healing still exists today, though it is not for everyone. Sometimes, for unknown reasons, God chooses not to heal someone even when he or she has lots of faith. I guess it is within the sovereignty of God.

MatthewG · May 15, 2022

Hello Aunty Jane,

I honestly do not believe anything psychical healing happens today, and that doctors can possibly help in the aid of repairing only slightly in the aspect of say "Knee replacement Surgery", Diabetes is something that needs to be taken care of insulin in some cases, and overall eating healthy, but also perhaps exercising some of the body can help from it deteriorating quicker than non-exercise.

I honesty do not believe any type of psychical healing happens today, and the ones that Jesus, and the Apostles had done were pictures and types of spiritual healings that have to deal with the heart of an individual deep with-in the soul (which is our heart/mind/will/emotion).

Some would think that I am crazy, and some would say that have witnessed healings by their own hand. All I understand is that, God through Jesus Christ, by seeking out in faith and searching for truth can heal the soul of a person...

Every individual will die, and there is no stopping though even today people may seek in sciences to "LIVE FOREVER".

Aunty Jane · May 15, 2022

MatthewG said:
Hello Aunty Jane,

I honestly do not believe anything psychical healing happens today, and that doctors can possibly help in the aid of repairing only slightly in the aspect of say "Knee replacement Surgery", Diabetes is something that needs to be taken care of insulin in some cases, and overall eating healthy, but also perhaps exercising some of the body can help from it deteriorating quicker than non-exercise.

I honesty do not believe any type of psychical healing happens today, and the ones that Jesus, and the Apostles had done were pictures and types of spiritual healings that have to deal with the heart of an individual deep with-in the soul (which is our heart/mind/will/emotion).

Some would think that I am crazy, and some would say that have witnessed healings by their own hand. All I understand is that, God through Jesus Christ, by seeking out in faith and searching for truth can heal the soul of a person...

Every individual will die, and there is no stopping though even today people may seek in sciences to "LIVE FOREVER".

Thank you Matthew, the scriptures do indicate that miracles did happen in the first century and it was proof positive that God’s spirit was operative on Jesus after his baptism, indicating that God was backing his Son in the same way that he had backed his prophets before. Many had been able to display supernatural power to demonstrate God’s power to others, like Moses did to Pharaoh in Egypt.
Jesus was able to pass on the Holy Spirit on to his apostles, but the gifts ceased with their death, having accomplished all that God sent them for.

All of the first century miracles were a demonstration of the wonderful blessings that God will restore for the ones Jesus gave his life for. I love Revelation 21:2-4 because it outlines what God has in store for those who remain faithful to him, in spite of all that the devil will do to sidetrack people with false hopes and miracles.

In this time of the end, spiritual healing is indeed the primary way that people are healed and can come to faith based on the important qualities of “faith, hope and love”. God’s word will guide those who seek God at this time when the world is falling apart. Knowing how malicious the devil is in his attempts to sidetrack us into all manner of deceptions, staying true to the scriptures....understanding what they are telling us, Jehovah will do the rest when he sees a sincere heart, open to the leading of his spirit. To survive the devil’s assaults with faith intact, is a miracle all by itself.

Blessings to you Matthew.

MatthewG · May 15, 2022

Aunty Jane said:
Thank you Matthew, the scriptures do indicate that miracles did happen in the first century and it was proof positive that God’s spirit was operative on Jesus after his baptism, indicating that God was backing his Son in the same way that he had backed his prophets before. Many had been able to display supernatural power to demonstrate God’s power to others, like Moses did to Pharaoh in Egypt.
Jesus was able to pass on the Holy Spirit on to his apostles, but the gifts ceased with their death, having accomplished all that God sent them for.

All of the first century miracles were a demonstration of the wonderful blessings that God will restore for the ones Jesus gave his life for. I love Revelation 21:2-4 because it outlines what God has in store for those who remain faithful to him, in spite of all that the devil will do to sidetrack people with false hopes and miracles.

In this time of the end, spiritual healing is indeed the primary way that people are healed and can come to faith based on the important qualities of “faith, hope and love”. God’s word will guide those who seek God at this time when the world is falling apart. Knowing how malicious the devil is in his attempts to sidetrack us into all manner of deceptions, staying true to the scriptures....understanding what they are telling us, Jehovah will do the rest when he sees a sincere heart, open to the leading of his spirit. To survive the devil’s assaults with faith intact, is a miracle all by itself.

Blessings to you Matthew.

Thank you for sharing your viewpoint with me Aunty Jane, having sat down and forcing myself to read Hebrews after i found two interesting verses one in Chapter 2 and chapter 9.

“Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death — that is, the devil — and might deliver those, whoever, with fear of death, throughout all their life, were subjects of bondage, for, doubtless, of messengers it doth not lay hold, but of seed of Abraham it layeth hold, wherefore it did behove him in all things to be made like to the brethren, that he might become a kind and stedfast chief-priest in the things with God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people, for in that he suffered, himself being tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:14-18‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

“how much more shall the blood of the Christ (who through the age-during Spirit did offer himself unblemished to God) purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:14‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

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