Feminism in the Church

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Duckybill

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This was the Scripture that YOU cited Aspen:

24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

Where does it say the husband is to submit to the wife??? It doesn't.

It doesn't have to say it, Ducky.
And it doesn't say it. That's why you cite ZERO Scripture.
 

ron

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This was the Scripture that YOU cited Aspen:

24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.


And it doesn't say it. That's why you cite ZERO Scripture.


LOL - ok Ducky...I've explained myself perfectly....you just don't like it. I will continue to love my wife like Christ loved the church.....He washed the disciple's feet. That is love through submission and that is what you cannot accept and that is why you took the tiniest part of my post and trashed it - rejecting everything you could not answer. Fear is a powerful warden. I pray you find your way out of your own prison.
 

Duckybill

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LOL - ok Ducky...I've explained myself perfectly....you just don't like it. I will continue to love my wife like Christ loved the church.....He washed the disciple's feet. That is love through submission and that is what you cannot accept and that is why you took the tiniest part of my post and trashed it. Fear is a powerful warden. I pray you find your way out of your own prison.
And I pray that you find the Jesus of the Bible, the ONLY Jesus/God. The only Savior, not the Jesus you have created to please yourself.

Matthew 24:37-39 (NKJV)
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
 

Rach1370

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Hi Rach,

This is Aspen - forgot to sign my name. New account,same Catholic :).

Do you believe that all modern feminists are trying to put men behind them? Seems a bit extreme too me.

I've noticed that you have been involved in quite a bit of heated conversation lately, so no pressure. I do not have strong beliefs or feeling about this topic, I am just trying to explore it.

blessings

Hey Aspen! I would say no, of course not all 'feminists' are like this...some genuinely want equality, and lets face it, there is much of the world in which women are little more than possessions.
But I think by far the majority of the movement have gone beyond that call for equality.
As far as the heated conversation goes...well, yeah, it sorta spiralled out of control. Where does one draw the line? We must content for the truth and the gospel, but not argue. Tough call to make on such important issues. I think for the foreseeable future I'm just gonna state my opinion and if someone really disagrees, well, that's between them and God. That's probably the only safe road to take at the moment...I'm becoming more convinced that I'm just not on the same wave length as some others...which makes communication dodgy at best. Makes me really appreciate you though...happy to disagree with me, but don't see it as a call to war!!

Are you saying that men and women rarely practice this ideal? What does it mean to rule over women in love? What is the difference between loving your wife like Christ loves the church and submitting to your husband in love? Sounds like two different ways of saying the same thing to me. Love each other.

Well yeah, it is love! But there are clearly differing roles. It may sound like the husband gets the best job as 'head', but as everyone knows, the show really can't go on without the support!! It's all about balance and harmony, and no one knows like Christ what a perfect balance is!!
 

Duckybill

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Hey Aspen! I would say no, of course not all 'feminists' are like this...some genuinely want equality, and lets face it, there is much of the world in which women are little more than possessions.
But I think by far the majority of the movement have gone beyond that call for equality.
As far as the heated conversation goes...well, yeah, it sorta spiralled out of control. Where does one draw the line? We must content for the truth and the gospel, but not argue. Tough call to make on such important issues. I think for the foreseeable future I'm just gonna state my opinion and if someone really disagrees, well, that's between them and God. That's probably the only safe road to take at the moment...I'm becoming more convinced that I'm just not on the same wave length as some others...which makes communication dodgy at best. Makes me really appreciate you though...happy to disagree with me, but don't see it as a call to war!!



Well yeah, it is love! But there are clearly differing roles. It may sound like the husband gets the best job as 'head', but as everyone knows, the show really can't go on without the support!! It's all about balance and harmony, and no one knows like Christ what a perfect balance is!!
Honestly Rach, you seem like the classic 'fence sitter', afraid to take a clear stand one way or the other. Did you know that 'fence sitters' are going to be rejected by God?

Revelation 3:16 (NKJV)
16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.
 

Rach1370

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Honestly Rach, you seem like the classic 'fence sitter', afraid to take a clear stand one way or the other. Did you know that 'fence sitters' are going to be rejected by God?

Revelation 3:16 (NKJV)
16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

Okaaay. On which fence am I sitting on, at this moment? I don't feel like I'm sitting on a fence...all my opinions are fairly cemented in my mind. Here's the thing...I'll happily bleed for the primary issues...but I don't really see how me throwing myself on the secondary ones in a likewise manner will do any one any good...including the gospel. I feel secondary issues can bring discussion, but not division.
And I do feel I must point out that just because I disagree with you on some points, does not make me a fence sitter. I happen to be very firm on this issues I disagree with you about.
 

ron

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Hey Rach,

I've missed interacting with you! I appreciate our dialog and learn new perspectives on traditional teachings every time we talk. You preach the gospel in an orthodox, refreshing and uniquely Rach way.

Thank you! and blessings!
 

Rach1370

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I know. That's why I noticed that you are a fence sitter. You caught my attention.

Wow Ducky. You're one of those people who require 'extra grace'. Whatever.
When it comes down to it, it doesn't matter a jot what you think of me. I'm not lukewarm, I know this because I love Jesus...wildly. I love scripture, and I love living every day knowing that God loves me enough to continue working on me!
I have never quibbled over what I believe. Perhaps you want to ask me what I believe on some issues, give me a chance to answer, instead of just flinging accusations at me that have no grounds. Of course that would just give you an opening to accuse me on a whole new and different level, since if I don't see scripture as exactly as you do, I'm obviously damned.
So go ahead and continue to be one of those argumentative, pretentious, holier than thou "Christians"...it really makes no difference to me...as you say, the Lord will ultimately be judge.
 

Duckybill

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Perhaps you want to ask me what I believe on some issues, give me a chance to answer, instead of just flinging accusations at me that have no grounds. Of course that would just give you an opening to accuse me on a whole new and different level, since if I don't see scripture as exactly as you do, I'm obviously damned.
So go ahead and continue to be one of those argumentative, pretentious, holier than thou "Christians"...
Who's 'flinging accusations now?
 

Rach1370

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Who's 'flinging accusations now?

Just returning the favour.
You know Ducky, in all your posts I've read, you use doctrine to bully and push around, to make yourself seem this shining example of Christianity. But not once have I seen a hint of you combining some of those important teachings into your attitude. Yes the Bible says to content for the truth, yes we are to be discerning, to stand up for correct doctrine, but lets have a look at some other things we are to combine these things with:

[2:1] But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine. [2] Older men are to be sober-minded, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, in love, and in steadfastness. (Titus 2:1-2 ESV)

[6] Likewise, urge the younger men to be self-controlled. [7] Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, [8] and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us. (Titus 2:6-8 ESV)

[3:1] Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, [2] to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people.
(Titus 3:1-2 ESV)


[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [23] gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. [24] And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. [25] If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. [26] Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
(Galatians 5:22-26 ESV)


You can be correct in all doctrine Ducky, but if you are harsh and criticising to those you should call brother and sister, then you are just being legalistic. And you know what Jesus thought of the Pharisees.
 

Duckybill

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Rach, I have no doubt that you believe in Jesus/God and are a true Christian. But if you keep rubbing elbows with attackers of the Bible you may end up with them.
 

Rach1370

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Rach, I have no doubt that you believe in Jesus/God and are a true Christian. But if you keep rubbing elbows with attackers of the Bible you may end up with them.

Okay, this I understand. I think it depends. Just hang with me a moment here Ducky. The Bible tells us to proclaim the gospel to the unsaved. But it also cautions us to do so to our own strengths. By that I mean...a recovering alcoholic that has been redeemed, shouldn't go preaching in a bar.
Here's the thing Ducky. The Bible is God's word. It is precious and true and invaluable. There are no contradictions in it. There is nothing any one can say that will make me change my mind on these issues. At all. But if I attack those that think differently with harsh words, I'm unlikely to change their minds...all I'm doing is acting in a manner that is contradictory to much of what the Bible requires of me. Jesus, the best teaching in the world, never compromised on the truth. But He was always loving, always kind...to the sinners. He used love, reason, basic truth and the Holy Spirit to teach, to touch others. Honestly, we need to follow His example, don't you think?
 
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Duckybill

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Okay, this I understand. I think it depends. Just hang with me a moment here Ducky. The Bible tells us to proclaim the gospel to the unsaved. But it also cautions us to do so to our own strengths. By that I mean...a recovering alcoholic that has been redeemed, shouldn't go preaching in a bar.
Here's the thing Ducky. The Bible is God's word. It is precious and true and invaluable. There are no contradictions in it. There is nothing any one can say that will make me change my mind on these issues. At all. But if I attack those that think differently with harsh words, I'm unlikely to change their minds...all I'm doing is acting in a manner that is contradictory to much of what the Bible requires of me. Jesus, the best teaching in the world, never compromised on the truth. But He was always loving, always kind...to the sinners. He used love, reason, basic truth and the Holy Spirit to teach, to touch others. Honestly, we need to follow His example, don't you think?
Thanks for clarifying. But there is a big difference in preaching to sinners and associating with those who attack God's Word. Satan sends his own to deceive those who are true believers. Yes, we can identify messengers of Satan by what they say, 'The Bible is full of contradictions and myth'. As long as we are aware that Satan is trying to deceive then all is well for us. Some will depart from the Christian faith by "giving heed" to them.

1 Timothy 4:1 (NKJV)
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
 

Rach1370

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Thanks for clarifying. But there is a big difference in preaching to sinners and associating with those who attack God's Word. Satan sends his own to deceive those who are true believers. Yes, we can identify messengers of Satan by what they say, 'The Bible is full of contradictions and myth'. As long as we are aware that Satan is trying to deceive then all is well for us. Some will depart from the Christian faith by "giving heed" to them.

1 Timothy 4:1 (NKJV)
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

Well, yeah, I suppose you're right. It can't be real smart to get cosy with those who have a clearly anti Christian agenda. As the Bible says, it's easier to be pulled down, then up.
But I can't really see that chatting with people online can be seen as associating! I think quite a few here are not anti Christian, but are confused and mislead. I think that makes it even more important to try and steer them towards truth!
But yes, I do agree with you that it is a fine, and somewhat tricky line between being a friend 'of' the world, and a friend 'to' the world.
 

Duckybill

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After all, some of them may have been Christians at one time. I cannot believe that anyone who calls God's Word "contradictions and myth" is a Christian now.
 

Rach1370

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After all, some of them may have been Christians at one time. I cannot believe that anyone who calls God's Word "contradictions and myth" is a Christian now.

I do agree that Biblical in-errancy is one of those matters that cannot be swayed on. I have been pondering today on what the ultimate meaning would be for those who think the Bible is less than what it is...be it contradictory or just wrong. Does it make them just very unwise, which could lead to a serious stumbling within their walk with God, or does it come down to actual blasphemy...as denying the words of God (even if just a written account...all of it is true and helpful) would be denying Him in some sense? I'm not sure at this point. At the very least I would think it very unwise. God gave us this book, I would think that should get it some respect and consideration.
But I do have to say that I don't think Aspen was calling the Bible 'false' when he questioned the floods reality. I think he was wondering if the account of the flood and the point it got across, was from a literal event, or if it was just a parable of sorts...a story that gets across a big idea. I do believe the flood was real...I don't think the bible gives us any clue otherwise and therefore must be assumed as literal, but I do not question the salvation of those who think otherwise. Just like I don't question the salvation of those who believe in the Rapture, or think that the earth is 'old' etc.
 

WhiteKnuckle

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Men are supposed to rule over women. Hmmmmmm, Yes this is true. Women are supposed to submit to their husbands. Hmmmmmm, Yes this is true.

What does it mean to rule? Is a king supposed to sit on his throne and be served and pampered? Is a king supposed to have responsibilities and have charge over his kingdom?

So, to rule over means,,,,,,,,,, To protect, to provide for. The responsibilites of the ruler are to be a servant, not to be served. If a ruler does his job correctly, the people under his rule will serve him because he does what he's supposed to.

So, a husband ruling over his wife is supposed to guide her, help her, provide for her, protect her, and is supposed to do this out of love. A bad ruler who causes revolt in his kingdom makes demands, and does not take into consideration the feelings, ideas, and well being of those under his rule.

What does it mean to serve? To give everything the ruler demands? I don't think so.

To serve recognises the ruler, and that the ruler is doing his job and has a job to do. To serve means not trying to gain the rulers responsibilities, and to help and assist in any way possible to make ruling easier and more pleasant for all involved. A true servant recognises that the job and responsibilites of the ruler are not theirs.

It's a partnership, where one does and the other reciprocates. You can't have two rulers on equal footing, Just like Jesus says, "You can't serve two masters" The same way, if men and women were equal in position in the marriage, there will be fighting and neither will help the other because they both feel it's their "right" to do this or that.

For what ever reason God chose a male to be the leader, and the female to be the servant.

The problem is, women don't like that word "servant" and people get ate up about "In Christ, there is no male or female". This has nothing to do with the subject at hand, but only dealing directly with salvation and eternal life.

I think if people would put down their bibles for one whole month and read the definitions in the dictionary we'd have way fewer debates, and there would be no such thing as femenism in the church.
 
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aspen

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After all, some of them may have been Christians at one time. I cannot believe that anyone who calls God's Word "contradictions and myth" is a Christian now.

I am not afraid of the contradictions in the Bible - my expectations are realistic. People are full of contradictions - perspectives change according to emotional states and cultural evolution. God used people to convey His word to people. Contradiction is a job hazard. The big picture gets through despite the minor contradictions.

One thing is true though. if all the Bibles in the world disappeared God's Kingdom would carry on - a promise from Christ - Matt 16:18.

It was not the Bible that was crucified on a Cross for our sins.

Also, Ducky - you can pretend that I am attacking the Bible all you want - you know it is a lie and you will have to answer for it someday - just know that I forgive you - you do not know what you do.

As far as feminism is concerned - I think it has gone too far in the church - I left the Presbyterian church and now that I look back I can see all the power plays that go on in presbytery and the habit of people in power to guard their positions and only allow people who hold their points of view to be apart of the club. In the case of Presbytery USA - women rule and it can get ugly for conservative men.

However, I really like many of the contributions women have brought to the leadership of churches. The fact is, the catholic church is totally run by women on the neighborhood church level.

It seems to me that there needs to be a balance and everyone needs to trust each other and stop competing. I hate to see women compete with men for leadership - it tends to produce nasty women and either weak men or tyrants.

I am looking forward to Heaven where leadership and 'being first' will be a thing of the past.
 

Duckybill

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I am not afraid of the contradictions in the Bible - my expectations are realistic. People are full of contradictions - perspectives change according to emotional states and cultural evolution. God used people to convey His word to people. Contradiction is a job hazard. The big picture gets through despite the minor contradictions.

One thing is true though. if all the Bibles in the world disappeared God's Kingdom would carry on - a promise from Christ - Matt 16:18.

It was not the Bible that was crucified on a Cross for our sins.

Also, Ducky - you can pretend that I am attacking the Bible all you want - you know it is a lie and you will have to answer for it someday - just know that I forgive you - you do not know what you do.
No need to pretend. Did you read what you just wrote? Why do you keep referring to the Bible if it isn't necessary??? No consistency Aspen.