Run AWAY from Calvinism!

amigo de christo said:

Not only would satan be in the abyss , but also during the thousand years the FP and the beast are burning alive in the lake of fire.

Click to expand...

That would be like me saying the letter 'Z' comes before the letter 'A' in the alphabet, right? Which, of course, I'm not saying at all. The lake of fire is certainly after the thousand years, as well as after the final Judgment, which happens immediately following the thousand years and Jesus's subsequent return, and I've not said otherwise.

amigo de christo said:

Thus there would be ZERO deception during that time...

Click to expand...

Well, I don't even follow what you're saying here, but there certainly is deception happening. You might read what I said to Ronald just above, especially concerning the vast difference between Satan's ability to deceive individuals and his (now defunct) ability to deceive the nations. Those are two very different things.

I detect from you guys an unwillingness to even consider what I'm saying. And that's fine with me, really, but actually to your own detriment.

Grace and peace to you.

amigo de christo said:

Now let all who name the name of Christ FEAST on those bibles daily.

Click to expand...

Literally eat my Bible? Like, literally??? Ew....



See what I did there?

Grace and peace to you, Ronald.

PinSeeker said:

It's not "based on man made numerology"... You never answered my question to you concerning the one hundred forty-four thousand of Revelation 7 and 14, and it's similarity to the thousand years of Revelation 20.

You also, by the way, haven't responded to my assertion that the events of Revelation 19:11-21 and the events described in Revelation 20:7-10 are both visions of the same event (rather than all the events of Revelation 20 coming after those of all of Revelation 19). To elaborate on that just a bit, Revelation 17-19 as a whole is a concurrent vision with and consisting of the same events as Revelation 20:1-10. Notice the similarity here:

"...the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur." (Revelation 19:19-20)​

"...the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)​

We can discuss that, too, if you like.


Think what you want, my friend. Yes, this discussion is between you and me, but there are a lot of great theologians through the centuries and millennia with whom you're disagreeing, here.


Yes, it... could... but it doesn't, and history bears that out.


Yes... well since Christ came, actually. Satan is "bound" and "in an abyss" in that he is no longer ~ for now, at least, because he will be loosed for a short time near the end ~ able to deceive the nations. As I pointed out before, Christ Jesus Himself said:

"...if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house." (Matthew 12:28-29)​

Jesus is talking there about the same thing that we see in Revelation 20:1-3, where John says he saw, in his dream:

"...an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended."​

Satan is bound; he is not able to deceive the nations at present, now and since His coming. Before this, the nations were bound, as Satan was able to deceive them. But Jesus unbound them, as we see in His reading of Isaiah 61 when He began His public ministry, reading (in Luke 4:18-19) the following:

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor."​

He also read from Isaiah 9; Matthew quotes Him in Matthew 4:15-16 as follows:

"The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles ~ the people dwelling in darkness have seen a great light, and for those dwelling in the region and shadow of death, on them a light has dawned."​

Whereupon He said:

"Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing," (Luke 4:21) and “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matthew 4:17)​

Not necessarily in that order, as we're not sure, but it is what it is. But yes, Jesus opened the Gospel up to Gentiles. No longer was it just for physical Israel, but for God's Israel, which includes both Jew and Gentile. And in so doing, He "bound (Satan) for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended" (Revelation 20:2-3). Read Revelation 17 very carefully ~ you might need to do that several times; I did ~ and pray about it, and see if the Lord doesn't show you the same thing, that a.) Revelation 17:1 through Revelation 19:10, and b.) Revelation 20:1-6, while different visions, are visions of the same thing... and particularly that Revelation 17:8 is a pre-telling and foreshadowing of what will eventually happen in Revelation 19:11-21 in this cycle and Revelation 20:7-9 in the next;

"(t)he beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction."​

You will see it, I think... or maybe not, but it's there.

Grace and peace to you, Ronald.

Click to expand...

Satan is not bound yet, James 4 tells us this,
7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

You think the devil is bound and can no longer deceive nations (people) but he can, as he is not yet bound in the bottomless pit.
Satan still has real power in the earth.
And here is Peter and Paul saying the same thing,
Ephesians 6:11
Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
1 Thessalonians 2:18
Therefore we wanted to come to you—even I, Paul, time and again—but Satan hindered us.
Romans 16:20
And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
Acts 26:18
to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
2 Timothy 2:26
and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
1 John 5:19
We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

Scott Downey said:

Satan is not bound yet...

Click to expand...

Yes, he's bound regarding his ability to deceive the nations. I pointed this out to Ronald previously, but will point it out again to you: Jesus said:

"But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house." (Matthew 12:28-29)

Jesus is most certainly "plundering" Satan's "house," even as we speak, and that is possible because He, Jesus, has bound the strong man, Satan.

Scott Downey said:

James 4 tells us this,
7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

Click to expand...

Addressed to individual Christians.

Scott Downey said:

You think the devil is bound and can no longer deceive nations (people) but he can, as he is not yet bound in the bottomless pit.

Click to expand...

His ability to deceive the nations is not the same thing as his ability to deceive individuals.

Scott Downey said:

Satan still has real power in the earth.

Click to expand...

Yes, he does. He prowls around like a lion, seeking individuals/people to devour (1 Peter 5:8). But he is rendered totally inept and thus bound ~ since Jesus's first coming ~ regarding his ability to deceive the nations.

Scott Downey said:

And here is Peter and Paul saying the same thing,
Ephesians 6:11
Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
1 Thessalonians 2:18
Therefore we wanted to come to you—even I, Paul, time and again—but Satan hindered us.
Romans 16:20
And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
Acts 26:18
to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
2 Timothy 2:26
and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
1 John 5:19
We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

Click to expand...

All regarding individuals. See above.

Grace and peace to you, Scott!

PinSeeker said:

That would be like me saying the letter 'Z' comes before the letter 'A' in the alphabet, right? Which, of course, I'm not saying at all. The lake of fire is certainly after the thousand years, as well as after the final Judgment, which happens immediately following the thousand years and Jesus's subsequent return, and I've not said otherwise.


Well, I don't even follow what you're saying here, but there certainly is deception happening. You might read what I said to Ronald just above, especially concerning the vast difference between Satan's ability to deceive individuals and his (now defunct) ability to deceive the nations. Those are two very different things.

I detect from you guys an unwillingness to even consider what I'm saying. And that's fine with me, really, but actually to your own detriment.

Grace and peace to you.

Click to expand...

I meant there is no deceptoin during the thousand years . Satan himself is bound and unable to even decieve the nations
and the false prophet and the beast are at the same time burning alive in a lake of fire .
SO who on earth is doing all the decieving we see even now . AND it aint like it aint been here since even the days of paul and others .
If when we try and spiritualize something , that the spiritualizing contradicts clearly what is written , we should then RECONSIDER .
Cause by what most folks do , I could make the bible say anything i wanted it too . ANYTHING .
We must step back and slow down a wee bit and start seeing the simplicty of what it says .
During said thousand years , satan is clearly bound and cannot Decieve the nations . ALSO the FP and the BEAST
are in a lake of fire already , the same lake of fire that satan too will be cast into
WHERE BOTH THE FP and the BEAST are . At what time has satan not been decieving the nations .
EVEN paul warned to be on gaurd about satan . During the thousand years , IT CLEARLY SAYS GOD SETS A SEAL upon HIM
that he can no longer decieve . PLUS by yalls teaching , if we are in the thousand years
THE BEAST AND FP would also be in the lake of fire . SO , i say we stick to FIRST what is plainly written
and dont try and allegoricalize it but rather just learn it .

Scott Downey said:

Satan is not bound yet, James 4 tells us this,
7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

You think the devil is bound and can no longer deceive nations (people) but he can, as he is not yet bound in the bottomless pit.
Satan still has real power in the earth.
And here is Peter and Paul saying the same thing,
Ephesians 6:11
Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
1 Thessalonians 2:18
Therefore we wanted to come to you—even I, Paul, time and again—but Satan hindered us.
Romans 16:20
And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
Acts 26:18
to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
2 Timothy 2:26
and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
1 John 5:19
We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

Click to expand...

Exactly . Very plain and very simple .

PinSeeker said:

Yes, he's bound regarding his ability to deceive the nations. I pointed this out to Ronald previously, but will point it out again to you: Jesus said:

"But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house." (Matthew 12:28-29)

Jesus is most certainly "plundering" Satan's "house," even as we speak, and that is possible because He, Jesus, has bound the strong man, Satan.


Addressed to individual Christians.


His ability to deceive the nations is not the same thing as his ability to deceive individuals.


Yes, he does. He prowls around like a lion, seeking individuals/people to devour (1 Peter 5:8). But he is rendered totally inept and thus bound ~ since Jesus's first coming ~ regarding his ability to deceive the nations.


All regarding individuals. See above.

Grace and peace to you, Scott!

Click to expand...

What you said though is false or I would not be bothering to post this back to you, Satan is not bound in the abyss yet, he is free to roam and deceive the nations
You did say the following correct?

"Yes... well since Christ came, actually. Satan is "bound" and "in an abyss" in that he is no longer ~ for now, at least, because he will be loosed for a short time near the end ~ able to deceive the nations. As I pointed out before, Christ Jesus Himself said:

"...if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house." (Matthew 12:28-29)

Jesus is talking there about the same thing that we see in Revelation 20:1-3, where John says he saw, in his dream:

"...an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended."

Satan is bound; he is not able to deceive the nations at present, now and since His coming. Before this, the nations were bound, as Satan was able to deceive them. But Jesus unbound them, as we see in His reading of Isaiah 61 when He began His public ministry, reading (in Luke 4:18-19) the following:
"

This place called the abyss, the bottomless pit, is a real place, a compartment of hell. It has a sealed door under lock and key controlled by an angel under authority of God. God locked up the angels who fell before the great flood in Tartarus, likely another compartment in hell. These angels who sinned with human women and birthed the Nephilim, corrupted all flesh that breathes air and filled the earth with violence were put in that place. There they are today, but not all fallen angels are locked in this prison. as an example we have one named Satan, a fallen angel and he is not locked in there yet.

The context of 2 Peter 2:4 includes both men and sinful angels, notice v10, which ties directly into Jude 6
The abyss of Revelation is a real prison, a place under lock and key where fallen angels are but not all of them are locked up in there.

9 then [in light of the fact that all this is true, be sure that] the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and how to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who indulge in the corrupt passions of the sin nature, and despise authority.

Jude 6
6 And angels who did not keep their own designated place of power, but abandoned their proper dwelling place, [these] He has kept in eternal chains under [the thick gloom of utter] darkness for the judgment of the great day, 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the adjacent cities, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in gross immoral freedom and unnatural vice and sensual perversity. They are exhibited [in plain sight] as an example in undergoing the punishment of everlasting fire.

This sin of these fallen angels is tied into Jude 6, and is also mentioned in Genesis 6 about the sons of God who took human women as wives and God locked them up till judgement day, but not all angels sinned that sin.
Some are free to roam about, we read of that also in Daniel, where fallen angels are warring with holy angels. Daniel 10:13-21

NKJV
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
NLV
God did not hold back from punishing the angels who sinned, but sent them down to hell. They are to be kept there in the deep hole of darkness until they stand before Him Who judges them.
NLT
For God did not spare even the angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, in gloomy pits of darkness, where they are being held until the day of judgment.
YLT
For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved,
NTE
God didn’t spare the angels who sinned, you see, but he threw them into the Pit, into dark caverns, handing them over to be guarded until the time of judgment.

amigo de christo said:

exactly . Now let all who name the name of Christ FEAST on those bibles daily .

Click to expand...

Well we do need to get them to remove those glasses they use that cause them to reinterpret SCripture.

PinSeeker said:

Okay, no, it's not. Jehovah's Witnesses believe it's literally 144,000 people, but it's not. In Revelation 7, the 144,000 of verses 1-7 are the same group of folks as the innumerable multitude of verses 8-17.

Click to expand...

Wow talking about pasting 2 verses together that have no business being considered the same! Once again you are speaking from you rBible but not Gods.

PinSeeker said:

es, the full text of Revelation 7 does demand that. Some folks don't think so, and you're apparently one of them. But again, I respect your opinion.

Click to expand...

Well it is not my opinion but a normal literal reading of SCripture. Itr is you that is throwing opinion into the mix.


We have 144000--12000 from teh tribes of Israel, then we see a great multitude from all ethnos (peoples) . Only a gross reinterpretation of gods Word can come up with that conclusion.

PinSeeker said:

"...the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur." (Revelation 19:19-20)
"...the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)

Click to expand...

Well your error is that the AC (beast) and false prophet are cast alive- then after the 1000 years the devil (the dragon of chapter 12). Nobody except those with an agenda would say these are the same!

PinSeeker said:

Revelation 20:4-6
This is the time period that we are in right now, that has been going on since the coming of the Holy Spirit. Since then, people have been coming to life ~ have been being born again of the Holy Spirit and raised up in Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly realms and joining with Him in His millennial reign. The millennium is a picture of the present reign of Christ and of the saints in heaven. The first resurrection is the life in Christ that starts with spiritual new birth (Romans 6:8-11; Colossians 3:1-4; Ephesians 2:6). Satan has been bound through the triumph of Christ in his crucifixion and resurrection (John 12:31; Col. 2:15).

Click to expand...

So who is regining on earth? You say it is not Satan. do you really think if Jesus is reigning on earth He would tolerate the evil we have ????? C'mon man.

amigo de christo said:

I meant there is no deceptoin during the thousand years.

Click to expand...

Well this would put you in a room all by yourself...

amigo de christo said:

Satan himself is bound and unable to even deceive the nations...

Click to expand...

I agree. But you say this here, but it seems you say the opposite in other posts.

amigo de christo said:

...the false prophet and the beast are at the same time burning alive in a lake of fire.

Click to expand...

Um, no, not right now. Again, this statement puts you in a room all by yourself. And nobody literally burns alive. That anyone, Satan or unbeliever, is thrown into the lake of fire and is tormented day and night forever means not literally burning alive in a fiery lake but rather in a state of being figuratively "immersed" in under God's eternal judgment which will be rendered once and for all at this great white throne ~ the final Judgment ~ of Revelation 20:7-21.

amigo de christo said:

If when we try and spiritualize something , that the spiritualizing contradicts clearly what is written , we should then RECONSIDER

Click to expand...

Okay so I don't disagree with what you say here, but if we try to woodenly literalize things spiritual, we should reconsider that, too.

amigo de christo said:

We must step back and slow down a wee bit and start seeing the simplicty of what it says.

Click to expand...

I agree with this, too, in principle. But we should not make what is simple into something overly simplistic.

amigo de christo said:

...dont try and allegoricalize it...

Click to expand...

amigo de christo said:

...just learn it .

Click to expand...

Agreed.

Grace and peace to you.

Scott Downey said:

What you said though is false...

Click to expand...

Well, you think it's false, right? Yes. Well, okay. It's not, but okay. And I'm sure you will say, "Well, you think it's not false, right?" And I would be fine with that, too.

Scott Downey said:

Satan is not bound in the abyss yet...

Click to expand...

He is. We'll agree to disagree, I guess, right?

Scott Downey said:

he is free to roam and deceive the nations...

Click to expand...

He's not. But again, we'll agree to disagree, right? I mean, the disagreement is concerning the millennium of Revelation 20 and whether it has begun or is still yet to come. It is not yet to come, but has certainly begun and is ongoing, and will conclude at Christ's return.

Scott Downey said:

You did say the following correct?

"Yes... well since Christ came, actually. Satan is "bound" and "in an abyss" in that he is no longer ~ for now, at least, because he will be loosed for a short time near the end ~ able to deceive the nations. As I pointed out before, Christ Jesus Himself said:

"...if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house." (Matthew 12:28-29)

Jesus is talking there about the same thing that we see in Revelation 20:1-3, where John says he saw, in his dream:

"...an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended."

Satan is bound; he is not able to deceive the nations at present, now and since His coming. Before this, the nations were bound, as Satan was able to deceive them. But Jesus unbound them, as we see in His reading of Isaiah 61 when He began His public ministry, reading (in Luke 4:18-19) the following:
"

Click to expand...

Yes. I assume everyone here says what he/she means and means what he/she says; I do. Sorry, I posted before actually including at the end what Jesus actually read from Isaiah 61 and subsequently said in Luke 4. So to finish:


Grace and peace to you.

Ronald Nolette said:

PinSeeker: In Revelation 7, the 144,000 of verses 1-7 are the same group of folks as the innumerable multitude of verses 8-17.

Wow talking about pasting 2 verses together that have no business being considered the same!

Click to expand...

Well, 2 passages in Revelation 7. And not "pasting them together," but it is a mistake to think John is talking about two different groups of people, one in Revelation 7:1-7 and another in Revelation 7:8-17.

Revelation 7:1-8 emphasizes the Israelite heritage of the New Testament people of God, and Revelation 7:9-17 emphasizes their international character. They are a great multitude, from every nation, tribe, people, and language, fulfilling the promise to Abraham that all the peoples on earth would be blessed through him (Genesis 12:3; 17:5).

And concerning the numbering in verses 1 through 7, we agree, certainly, that the number of the sealed comes to 12,000 for each tribe. Regardless whether you accept it or not (I get that you don't, but that's not what I'm speaking to here) I think you do understand what I have said about the number 1000 (especially in Revelation), and the balanced numbering suggests that 12 is a symbolic number for the fullness of the people of God within each tribe. So the full number, 144,000, is not literal but symbolic and a "complete completeness," if you will. Well, you won't, I guess, and that's unfortunate. But that's how the first half of Revelation and the second half correspond to each other.

Ronald Nolette said:

...you are speaking from your Bible but not God's.

Click to expand...

LOL! There is only one Word of God. Thank God for that...

Ronald Nolette said:

PinSeeker said: the full text of Revelation 7 does demand that. Some folks don't think so, and you're apparently one of them. But again, I respect your opinion.

Well it is not my opinion but a normal literal reading of Scripture.

Click to expand...

I would say the same regarding my reading of it.

Ronald Nolette said:

It is you that is throwing opinion into the mix.

Click to expand...

We can say the same about both of us and leave it at that.

Ronald Nolette said:

We have 144000--12000 from the tribes of Israel, then we see a great multitude from all ethnos (peoples).

Click to expand...

Right, and we're "seeing" the same group of people portrayed in two different ways, the second clarifying the first. You disagree. Well, okay, but:

1. Again, Revelation 7:1-8 emphasizes the Israelite heritage of the New Testament people of God, and Revelation 7:9-17 emphasizes their international character. They are a great multitude, from every nation, tribe, people, and language, fulfilling the promise to Abraham that all the peoples on earth would be blessed through him (Genesis 12:3; 17:5).

2. And again, to clarify the numbering in verses 1 through 7, we agree, certainly, that the number of the sealed comes to 12,000 for each tribe. Regardless whether you accept it or not ~ you don't, but that's not what I'm speaking to here ~ you do understand what I have said about the number 1000 (especially in Revelation), and the balanced numbering suggests that 12 is a symbolic number for the fullness of the people of God within each tribe. So the full number, 144,000, is not literal but rather a "complete completeness," if you will. Well, you won't, I guess, and that's unfortunate. But that's how the first half of Revelation and the second half correspond to each other.

Ronald Nolette said:

Only a gross reinterpretation of gods Word can come up with that conclusion.

Click to expand...

Think what you want, my friend.

Ronald Nolette said:

PinSeeker: Revelation 17-19 as a whole is a concurrent vision with and consisting of the same events as Revelation 20:1-10. Notice the similarity here:

"...the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur." (Revelation 19:19-20)

"...the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)
​

Well your error is that the AC (beast) and false prophet are cast alive- then after the 1000 years the devil (the dragon of chapter 12).

Click to expand...

There is no error, Ronald. You think there is; I get that. But there is none. All who go there are cast there after the millennium and the final Judgment.

Ronald Nolette said:

Nobody except those with an agenda would say these are the same!

Click to expand...

There is no "agenda," Ronald. Unless you want to say it's the same as yours, I guess.

Ronald Nolette said:

So who is reigning on earth? You say it is not Satan.

Click to expand...

Jesus, and the saints who have gone before us with Him, but right now from heaven. Is Jesus not your King right now, Ronald? Surely you would say He is your King, and I certainly do, too. He is now seated at the right hand of God, and the spirits of the saints who have gone before are with Him ~ as are we, spiritually, having been being born again of the Holy Spirit and raised up in Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly realms.

Ronald Nolette said:

...do you really think if Jesus is reigning on earth He would tolerate the evil we have ?????

Click to expand...

Well He is reigning, and now, from heaven. So yes He is reigning on earth, but for now from heaven. But certainly, one great day He will reign on earth... on earth, because earth and heaven will be one. This is the Return of the King ~ a reference to the great J.R.R. Tolkien and Lord of the Rings, if you didn't catch it. But yes, then ~ then ~ yes, there will be no more sin, no more evil.

Ronald Nolette said:

C'mon man.

Click to expand...

I'm already here. I'm trying to get you to "c'mon." So, come on! But if you can't bring yourself to do it yet, well, that's... okay.

Grace and peace to you, Ronald.

PinSeeker said:

Well, you think it's false, right? Yes. Well, okay. It's not, but okay. And I'm sure you will say, "Well, you think it's not false, right?" And I would be fine with that, too.


He is. We'll agree to disagree, I guess, right?


He's not. But again, we'll agree to disagree, right? I mean, the disagreement is concerning the millennium of Revelation 20 and whether it has begun or is still yet to come. It is not yet to come, but has certainly begun and is ongoing, and will conclude at Christ's return.


Yes. I assume everyone here says what he/she means and means what he/she says; I do. Sorry, I posted before actually including at the end what Jesus actually read from Isaiah 61 and subsequently said in Luke 4. So to finish:

“'The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor'... Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”​

Grace and peace to you.

Click to expand...

1 JOHN 5:19 throws in a monkey wrench to your POV
it proves Satan is still deceiving the nations
1 JOHN 5:19
KJ21
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
ASV
We know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in the evil one.
AMP
We know [for a fact] that we are of God, and the whole world [around us] lies in the power of the evil one [opposing God and His precepts].
AMPC
We know [positively] that we are of God, and the whole world [around us] is under the power of the evil one.
BRG
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
CSB
We know that we are of God, and the whole world is under the sway of the evil one.
CEB
We know we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
CJB
We know that we are from God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the Evil One.
CEV
We are certain we come from God and the rest of the world is under the power of the devil.
DARBY
We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the wicked [one].
DLNT
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the evil one.
DRA
We know that we are of God, and the whole world is seated in wickedness.
ERV
We know that we belong to God, but the Evil One controls the whole world.
EHV
We know that we are from God and that the whole world lies in the grip of the Evil One.
ESV
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
ESVUK
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
EXB
We know that we ·belong to God [or are children of God; L are of God], but the Evil One controls the whole world.
GNV
We know that we are of God, and this whole world lieth in wickedness.
GW
We know that we are from God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
GNT
We know that we belong to God even though the whole world is under the rule of the Evil One.
HCSB
We know that we are of God, and the whole world is under the sway of the evil one.
ICB
We know that we belong to God. But the Evil One controls the whole world.
ISV
We know that we are from God and that the whole world lies under the control of the evil one.
PHILLIPS
We know that we ourselves are children of God, and we also know that the world around us is under the power of the evil one. We know too that the Son of God has actually come to this world, and has shown us the way to know the one who is true. We know that our real life is in the true one, and in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the real God and this is real, eternal life.
JUB
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in wickedness.
KJV
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
AKJV
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
LEB
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
TLB
We know that we are children of God and that all the rest of the world around us is under Satan’s power and control.
MSG
We know that none of the God-born makes a practice of sin—fatal sin. The God-born are also the God-protected. The Evil One can’t lay a hand on them. We know that we are held firm by God; it’s only the people of the world who continue in the grip of the Evil One. And we know that the Son of God came so we could recognize and understand the truth of God—what a gift!—and we are living in the Truth itself, in God’s Son, Jesus Christ. This Jesus is both True God and Real Life. Dear children, be on guard against all clever facsimiles.
MEV
We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in wickedness.
MOUNCE
We know that we are children of · God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
NOG
We know that we are from God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
NABRE
We know that we belong to God, and the whole world is under the power of the evil one.
NASB
We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
NASB1995
We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
NCB
We know that we are from God and that the entire world lies under the power of the evil one.
NCV
We know that we belong to God, but the Evil One controls the whole world.
NET
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
NIRV
We know that we are children of God. We know that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
NIV
We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
NIVUK
We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
NKJV
We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
NLV
We know that we belong to God, but the whole world is under the power of the devil.
NLT
We know that we are children of God and that the world around us is under the control of the evil one.
NMB
We know that we are of God, and that the world is altogether set on wickedness.
NRSVA
We know that we are God’s children, and that the whole world lies under the power of the evil one.
NRSVACE
We know that we are God’s children, and that the whole world lies under the power of the evil one.
NRSVCE
We know that we are God’s children, and that the whole world lies under the power of the evil one.
NRSVUE
We know that we are God’s children and that the whole world lies under the power of the evil one.
NTE
We know that we are from God, and the whole world is under the power of the evil one.
OJB
We have da’as that we are of Hashem and the whole Olam Hazeh lies under Hasatan.
RGT
We know that we are of God, and this whole world lies in wickedness.
RSV
We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one.
RSVCE
We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one.
TLV
We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
VOICE
Have confidence in the fact that we belong to God, but also know that the world around us is in the grips of the evil one.
WEB
We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
WE
We know that we belong to God and the whole world belongs to the devil.
WYC
We know, that we be of God, and all the world is set in evil [and all the world is put in wicked].
YLT
we have known that of God we are, and the whole world in the evil doth lie;

If satan was bound there would be no evil in the world. The millennium is a time of peace- no war or evil.

That has never existed since the church began 2000 years ago.

Scott Downey said:

1 JOHN 5:19 throws in a monkey wrench to your POV

Click to expand...

I get why you think it does, but it does not. In any version.

Scott Downey said:

it proves Satan is still deceiving the nations

Click to expand...

It does no such thing. It surely does show that Satan is still able to deceive individuals, and possibly any individual in... the world. As you said to 2nd Rate Mind in another thread, all of creation is fallen; we all dwell in a fallen world.

Grace and peace to you, Scott.

PinSeeker said:

Satan is no longer, since Jesus was born 2000-plus years ago, able to deceive the nations.

Click to expand...

What world do you live in? Not to mention Paul disagrees with you.

PinSeeker said:

It surely does show that Satan is still able to deceive individuals,

Click to expand...

How can this be if he has already been thrown in the abyss?

Christophany said:

If satan was bound there would be no evil in the world.

Click to expand...

When ~ when, not if ~ Satan is unbound from deceiving the nations, if we are still alive... Well, I don't even want to think about it, to be quite honest.

Christophany said:

The millennium is a time of peace- no war or evil.

Click to expand...

The millennium is filled with tribulation of all kinds. But God is with us in it and through it always. Though we walk through the valley of the shadow of death, we (hopefully) fear no evil because He is with us; His rod and staff comfort us, He even prepares a table before us in the presence of our enemies. He anoints our heads with oil, and our cups overflow. So, goodness and mercy follows us all the days of our lives, and we shall dwell in the house of the LORD forever.

Grace and peace to you.

reformed1689 said:

PinSeeker said: Satan is no longer, since Jesus was born 2000-plus years ago, able to deceive the nations.

What world do you live in?

Click to expand...

LOL! There's only one world... Well, that people actually live on/in... Oh wait! Maybe you're speaking metaphorically...

reformed1689 said:

Not to mention Paul disagrees with you.

Click to expand...

Paul is long dead, as I'm sure you agree. I mean, what he wrote in the Bible lives on, I guess, but that's because God's Word endures forever, as Isaiah says and Peter quotes. And I agree with, well, God.

reformed1689 said:

PinSeeker said: It surely does show that Satan is still able to deceive individuals
How can this be if he has already been thrown in the abyss?

Click to expand...

The abyss has been described as where Satan is, a spiritual realm. But it also described as a place “under the earth.” There is no denying that Scripture describes it this way; the question is this to be understood literally, or metaphorically? In other words:


Or:


Well, the latter (b) is the case. After all, if it was totally under the earth, and a realm completely separated from the earth, demons would not even be a threat to us. Yet they are. The abyss (spiritual realm) does intersect with the physical realm on Earth. This is how Satan and the other demons are able to affect and influence humanity. But he is bound in the sense that he cannot deceive the nations as he could in the days of the Israelites before the advent of Jesus.

And this is the Reformed understanding of... well, I was going to say specifically Revelation 20, but it's far more than just what's found there. Allusions to this can be found all through the Bible, even in the writings of Paul and Peter.

Grace and peace to you..