Timing of the abomination of desolation

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ewq1938

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No, they specifically were marveling at the temple buildings as the text indicates. Stop making things up.


You stop making things up. Walls ARE buildings and without them the temple couldn't have existed as it was. It would have been an impre4ssive thing to see and marvel at, all of it.

There's no reason to think the entire Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in the past nor is there any reason to think it all will be fulfilled in the future.

None of the Olivet Discourse events have happened yet.
 

Keraz

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Scripture and history answer.

It did.
False Christs did come and they still come today.
One day; one will come who Satan will confer his power onto. Revelation 13:4 That man will rule the world for 42 months, until Jesus Returns.
We should know about all of this and be prepared to reject the 'beast' and his mark.
 

covenantee

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False Christs did come and they still come today.
One day; one will come who Satan will confer his power onto. Revelation 13:4 That man will rule the world for 42 months, until Jesus Returns.
We should know about all of this and be prepared to reject the 'beast' and his mark.

History confirmed Jesus' predictions.

History did not confirm your "one day".
 
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Randy Kluth

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If I were able to put it in even stronger... terms here, I would, because the problem goes much, much deeper than simple idol worship and a man-oriented moral system. I suggest you check out a work called The Golden Bough by Sir James George Frazer. Scientists like to think the examples of weird religious and sexual practices it documents was a natural path of evolution of our primitive ancestors. No, it was an example of a certain people put on this earth to work for the devil himself against God and His people.

I never was a fast reader in my younger years, because I tend to allow what I read to soak in a bit. So when I read about Moses coming down from Mt. Sinai with the stone tablets, and he finds the children of Israel had made a calf idol in false worship. I began to wonder just how... they knew to do that, and who would have led them to make that idol and do that? Had Aaron learned that from the Egyptians? Maybe. But then, centuries later, in 1 Kings, we find that Jeroboam, king of the ten tribe "kingdom of Israel" after God split old Israel into two nations, that Jeroboam also made two gold calf idols in false worship for the northern ten tribes to worship. Again, where did he get that idea from?

They learned it from the crept in unawares, even back at that time while in Egypt.

Jude 4-7
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.


That is what Lord Jesus was talking about with the "tares" in the parable of the tares of the field in Matthew 13. There are "certain men crept in unawares" put here on earth that are "ordained" to work for the devil. Those are not simply deceived men, they 'know' they are the devil's own elect here on earth. God warned us early on in Genesis 3 that He put "emnity" between the Seed of the Woman (Christ's family) and the seed of the devil. In Matthew 13 Lord Jesus said the devil is who sowed the "tares". So those evil "workers of iniquity" serve the devil, and have been ordained to that for this present world. The gullible often refuse to admit those kind of people exist on this earth.



5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Would that include those who stirred up Aaron to make a gold calf idol when Moses was upon Mt. Sinai? Most likely. God caused the children of Israel to wander in the desert wilderness for 40 years in order to purge that unbelieving generation out, so was that not another act of genocide the devils like to claim that God did?


6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
KJV

That idea about the angels is linked to the idea of going after strange flesh. I am not scared to proclaim God's Word in Genesis 6 as written, which reveals those angels saw the daughters of man, and took wives of them. And their offspring was a hybrid giant race, which God did not create, and that was one of the main purposes for God bringing the flood of Noah's day, and also after the flood when a second irruption of the giants happened, and God told Israel to literally wipe out those 7 nations where they existed among the Canaanites.


The following verse the translators did not properly bring the proper name Rephaim into English with that word "deceased". The Rephaim was one of the names for the giants (2 Samuel 5:18-22).

Isa 26:14
14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast Thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.

KJV

Notice something unique about that above verse? We should, because it says those particular "deceased" (Rephaim), "they shall not rise:".

That is pointing to the resurrection. The Rephaim, i.e., the hybrid giants, shall not resurrect. Instead they are destroyed.

What that does is PROVE beyond a doubt that the offspring of giants by the "sons of God" mating with flesh woman per Genesis 6 literally... produced a hybrid race of giants upon this earth. The reason we know this Isaiah 26:14 proves that is because ALL men born of woman that have died will be resurrected (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15; 1 Corinthians 15:22; Revelation 20:4-6, and 13). But these Rephaim, won't be resurrected. They shall not rise.

That hybrid giant race upon the earth in those days is where the old mythologies and legends of the Titans and Greek gods came from. All of the most ancient civilizations contain a mythological history about it, even among the North American Indian culture. That event sought to knock God's Plan out of balance, with trying to taint the Seed of the Woman that Christ would be born of. So the reason for God commanding Israel to literally wipe out those seven nations in the land of Canaan was because of a much, much darker... working by the devil, than simply men exhibiting bad morals.

To be clear, I do not embrace mythologies about active conspiracies of satanically-motivated people for the most part. I just think that there's significant truth in what you're saying. I don't personally believe in the "race of giants," created by sexual union between demons and women. However, let me tell you where we agree.

I do think a certain segment of people on earth are willing to commit to opposing God's command to live in unity with Himself, and in subjection to Himself. They in that respect become just like Satan, opposing God and His people.

How organized they are I can't say. I don't at all doubt there is organization, though. How conscious of this conspiracy they are, in this regard, I can't say because unbelievers have a distorted view of reality. They don't accept the truth, and so fabricate their own reality, and therefore cannot be conscious of the conspiracy we understand as Christians.

Whether or not these people, committed to Satan, knew what they were doing, or were involved in trying to distort God's proper worship, while Moses was on the Mountain, I can't say. Obviously, whether they have a satanic plan for idol worship or not, their default position is to worship something other than the God of His Word, which is the Moral Law He gave Man when He created him.

When the Northern tribes broke from the Southern tribes, they had to, logically, create a new religion apart from God's Law, which required all Israel to worship God in Judah. So it is a default position, and does not require some kind of satanic tradition or doctrine by which to infect people who otherwise might be godly.

But clearly, there are these 2 types of people on earth, those who love and serve God, and those completely committed to not do things God's way, who consciously oppose His word, whether they recognize it as God's word or not. They consciously avoid rules that they detest, whether or not they know there is a God.

They dislike the God of Christianity, in particular of the more conservative kind. They wish to be liberated from the God of Christianity, or the God who requires that they live godly lives. They wish to define "godly" for themselves, and so, by default defer to a form of idolatry, replacing God with their own sense of what is "godly."

Thanks for your comments. I do see some intersection in our beliefs.
 

Davy

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To be clear, I do not embrace mythologies about active conspiracies of satanically-motivated people for the most part.
....

Then you instead have adopted man's worldviews instead of the Biblical worldview from God Himself.

Gen 3:14-15
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

KJV

Rev 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

KJV
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Can't we just imagine the disciples marveling at the retaining wall. "Why, this is the retaining wall that's going to prove those Scofield futurists to be correct in the 19th century"!!

Guffaws for all.
Yeah, that retaining wall is a really amazing building.

Incidentally, we haven't yet heard how to enter a retaining wall, because it is really and truly a building.
There has to be some way, but I can't even begin to fathom how that is possible.

Surely Jesus and/or one or more of His disciples must have entered that retaining wall, because it was and is really and truly a building.
Yes, I'm sure they did since a retaining wall is obviously a building. It wouldn't have been built if you couldn't go into it.

Surely someone has entered it over the past 17 centuries.

Awaiting futurist proof Scripture.
Yeah, I would think someone has by now. Somehow.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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You stop making things up. Walls ARE buildings and without them the temple couldn't have existed as it was. It would have been an impre4ssive thing to see and marvel at, all of it.
Walls are things that are built, but they are not temple buildings. Temple buildings are things that have doors, walls and a ceiling that people can go into. This is obvious, but your doctrinal bias is preventing you from seeing the most obvious things.

None of the Olivet Discourse events have happened yet.
The temple buildings were destroyed. I refuse to dishonor Jesus the way you are by acting as if He didn't think it was important to answer the disciples' question about when the temple buildings would be destroyed. Around 70 AD Jerusalem was surrounded by armies, just as Jesus prophesied, and then their temple buildings were destroyed just as Jesus prophesied. We should be celebrating how Jesus accurately predicted the future and how one of the things He prophesied was fulfilled exactly as He said it would be, but, instead, you deny that it has even happened yet just because a wall that wasn't part of the temple buildings that Jesus said would be destroyed is still standing.
 
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ewq1938

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Walls are things that are built, but they are not temple buildings. Temple buildings are things that have doors, walls and a ceiling that people can go into.


Wrong. You are making up your own personal definition out of thin air and ignoring the Greek definition. That's very typically an Amillennial thing to do:


Thayer Definition

G3619
οἰκοδομή
oikodomē
Thayer Definition:
1) (the act of) building, building up
2) metaphorically edifying, edification
2a) the act of one who promotes another’s growth in Christian wisdom, piety, happiness, holiness
3) a building (i.e. the thing built, edifice)
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine (abstract) of a compound of G3624 and the base of G1430
Citing in TDNT: 5:144, 674


Strong's concordance

G3619
οἰκοδομή
oikodomē
oy-kod-om-ay'
Feminine (abstraction) of a compound of G3624 and the base of G1430; architecture, that is, (concretely) a structure; figuratively confirmation: - building, edify (-ication, -ing).
Total KJV occurrences: 18


Spiritual Israelite's made up definition

No Strong's number or related Greek word
Temple buildings are things that have doors, walls and a ceiling that people can go into.
 

covenantee

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That's because that Day hasn't happened yet.
Could be tomorrow. Are you watching and ready?
That's because history does not confirm what hasn't happened yet.
But false Christs did happen.
As Jesus predicted.
As history confirmed.
Do you believe Him?
 
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Randy Kluth

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You stop making things up. Walls ARE buildings and without them the temple couldn't have existed as it was. It would have been an impre4ssive thing to see and marvel at, all of it.
None of the Olivet Discourse events have happened yet.

Apparently the temple did exist without the extended retaining walls of Herod's temple, because Solomon's temple existed prior to that wall being built. It is believed that Solomon had a foundation laid down and that Herod built the Western Wall on top of that foundation. It was "built," but it was not a "building" in the sense that Jesus referred to the "buildings of the temple."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Wall

And no, a retaining wall would not be the object of overall beauty associated with the temple buildings. It was a completely different project associated with creating the temple plaza, as opposed to building the temple buildings themselves.

Taking these buildings down did not, at any rate, require removal of the foundation stones, nor removal of the retaining walls. Time has a way of removing even some of these. Jesus' prophecy, however, had to do not with the withering away of foundation stones and retaining walls with time, but rather, with the demolition of the buildings which were used by apostate religious Jews.
 

ewq1938

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Apparently the temple did exist without the extended retaining walls of Herod's temple, because Solomon's temple existed prior to that wall being built.

Which is a different temple. We aren't discussing that one are we? We are discussing the temple that existed in Christ's time. Nice red herring fallacy though.

And no, a retaining wall would not be the object of overall beauty associated with the temple buildings.

Walls are always something to marvel at, especially ones that make the entire temple area possible. VERY IMPRESSIVE!
 

Randy Kluth

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Which is a different temple. We aren't discussing that one are we? We are discussing the temple that existed in Christ's time.

That's true. However, my real point is that the temple does not *need* the retaining wall to have a temple. Apparently the retaining wall built by Herod was positioned on Solomon's foundation, which *did not require* a retaining wall! You said:
"Walls ARE buildings and without them the temple couldn't have existed as it was."

You seem to be a bit devious here. You are pretending that buildings need walls, which is a truism if you're referring to exterior walls of a building.

But we're not talking about that. We're talking about a "retaining wall!"

Walls are always something to marvel at, especially ones that make the entire temple area possible. VERY IMPRESSIVE!

Yes, I can be impressed by the Great Wall of China. This is not that! ;)
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Wrong. You are making up your own personal definition out of thin air and ignoring the Greek definition. That's very typically an Amillennial thing to do:


Thayer Definition

G3619
οἰκοδομή
oikodomē
Thayer Definition:
1) (the act of) building, building up
2) metaphorically edifying, edification
2a) the act of one who promotes another’s growth in Christian wisdom, piety, happiness, holiness
3) a building (i.e. the thing built, edifice)
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine (abstract) of a compound of G3624 and the base of G1430
Citing in TDNT: 5:144, 674


Strong's concordance

G3619
οἰκοδομή
oikodomē
oy-kod-om-ay'
Feminine (abstraction) of a compound of G3624 and the base of G1430; architecture, that is, (concretely) a structure; figuratively confirmation: - building, edify (-ication, -ing).
Total KJV occurrences: 18


Spiritual Israelite's made up definition

No Strong's number or related Greek word
Temple buildings are things that have doors, walls and a ceiling that people can go into.
I did say that walls are things that are built, but they were not the temple buildings that the disciples were marveling at. Is this too hard for you to understand or is doctrinal bias just blinding you? You can try to get around it any way you want, but Jesus was not talking about the destruction of outer walls, He was talking about the temple buildings that they went inside of to worship and so on. Those are the buildings that the disciples were marveling at. Jesus was basically saying that they shouldn't be so impressed with them because they were going to be destroyed.

It's not surprising that you have to resort to this nonsense to try to keep your doctrine afloat. You have the ludicrous notion that Jesus was asked when the temple buildings would be destroyed and then inexplicably declined to answer that question. But, He would not do that. He would not tell them that the temple buildings would be destroyed and then say nothing more about it even when asked about it, as you believe. That's ridiculous.

You are denying the obvious just because your pet doctrine is more important to you than truth.
 

covenantee

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More historical Scriptural fulfillments and confirmations of Matthew 24.

For the premi crowd who insist that "it's all future".

Ralph Woodrow, Great Prophecies of the Bible

PERSECUTION AGAINST THE DISCIPLES

Matthew: "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.., And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (24:9-12).

Mark: "They shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten; and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony.., whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak but the Holy Ghost... And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (13:9-13).

Luke: "They shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony...I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist...and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (21:12-17).

The book of Acts gives a complete account of how the disciples were persecuted in the very ways Jesus had predicted. Let us take, for example, Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). They were brought before "rulers" (verses 5-7). And it turned into an opportunity to testify. Peter explained that "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (verse 12). They were given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay, for the men of the council "marveled" (verse 13). They were then commanded "not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus" (verse 18). As Jesus had said, they were hated for his name's sake.

The same things are seen in Acts 5. Certain authorities "laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison" (verse 18). Later they were brought "before the council" (verse 27) and told to answer for continuing to teach in the name of Jesus (verse 28). Again they had opportunity to testify (verses 29-32). They were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41).

Or take Acts 6. There arose certain ones of the "synagogue" that disputed with Stephen. "And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spoke" (verses 9,10). Persecution resulted and he was brought into the "council " and questioned (verse 12). Again there was the opportunity to testify, the words of that testimony being given in Acts 7. Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). Jesus had said that some of them would be killed.

Notice Acts 8. "There was a great persecution against the church." Christians were put in "prison", but the result was that the word was preached (verses 1-4).

In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into "prison." But it turned into an opportunity to testify and the Philippian jailor and his family were converted as a result (verses 22-34). In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Christians were "imprisoned and beat in every Synagogue."

In Acts 24, Paul was brought before Felix, the governor, and testified. He was given a mouth of wisdom which his adversaries could not gainsay—though they obtained an orator to speak against him. Paul's words even made Felix to "tremble." In Acts 25 and 26, Paul was brought before king Agrippa, the chief captains, and the principal men of the city. He was given a mouth of wisdom, for Agrippa said to Paul, "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian" (verse 28).

Jesus said the disciples would be afflicted, beaten, imprisoned; they would be hated for his name's sake and some would be killed; they would be brought before councils, rulers, and kings, for a testimony; they would be given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay. Surely these things came to pass in those years—unmistakably fulfilled in every detail.

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many ...but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Mt. 24:11,13). Peter, who was present when Jesus gave this prophecy (Mk. 13:3), later wrote about "false prophets" that had risen and of "many" that followed their pernicious ways (2 Peter 2). John, who also heard Jesus give this prophecy, recorded the fulfillment: "Many false prophets are gone out into the world" (l John 4:1). "Many deceivers are entered into the world" (2 John 7).

Paul also spoke of "false apostles, deceitful workers" (2 Cor. 11:13). He mentioned Hymenaeus and Philetus who taught false doctrines and overthrew the faith of some (2 Tim. 2:17, 18). By the time of his epistle to Titus, there were "many...deceivers ...who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not" (Titus 1:10, 11).

The waters of truth were muddied by betrayals, false prophets, iniquity, and the love of many waxing cold.
 
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ewq1938

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I did say that walls are things that are built, but they were not the temple buildings that the disciples were marveling at.

I'm going by the meaning of the Greek word, you are going by the English meaning of a building. I'm the one who is correct here. Anything that was built out of stone was an architectural building, whether a wall or a temple or any other stone architectural part of the complex.
 

ewq1938

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That's true. However, my real point is that the temple does not *need* the retaining wall to have a temple. Apparently the retaining wall built by Herod was positioned on Solomon's foundation, which *did not require* a retaining wall! You said:
"Walls ARE buildings and without them the temple couldn't have existed as it was."

You seem to be a bit devious here. You are pretending that buildings need walls, which is a truism if you're referring to exterior walls of a building.

But we're not talking about that. We're talking about a "retaining wall!"


It's a fact the temple Christ spoke of could not exist without the retaining walls. Earlier temples didn't because they were lower and were smaller. *rolls my eyes*
 

Keraz

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It's a fact the temple Christ spoke of could not exist without the retaining walls. Earlier temples didn't because they were lower and were smaller. *rolls my eyes*
I'm sad to say, but most here see your attempts to make the surrounds of the Temple, into part of the Temple; as failed preterist nonsense.
It is plain to all careful studiers of the Bible and of history, that the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 AD, was the fulfilment of Jesus' prophecy in Matthew 24:1-2.
 

ewq1938

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I'm sad to say, but most here see your attempts to make the surrounds of the Temple, into part of the Temple; as failed preterist nonsense.
It is plain to all careful studiers of the Bible and of history, that the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 AD, was the fulfilment of Jesus' prophecy in Matthew 24:1-2.


Stone is still upon stone there to this day. Even in 70 AD not every "building" was destroyed so no fulfillment then.
 
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