Why do Catholics…

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Berserk

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Here's what the evangelical fundamentalists here don't get about Jesus' teaching on Holy Communion.
In John 6:53-58 the Gospel shifts its focus from the figurative "bread of life" discourse to the more concrete Holy Eucharist.
Jesus now stresses that His "flesh" and "blood" are "real food (6:55)," not figurative food.
Lest He be misunderstood as only speaking symbolically, Jesus avoids the Greek word "esthio" for "eat" in favor of "trogo," which is more literal and means "munch on." Thus, Jesus says those who participate in this sacramental act "eat me (6:57)."

More crucially, fundamentalists always duck 3 facts that reinforce this interpretation:
(1) Jesus says that those who thus eat and drink "abide in me, and I in them" and thus experience Jesus' real presence.
(2) Many of Jesus' disciples desert Him upon hearing this cannibalistic-sounding language (6:66) and all Jesus has to do to retain these offended disciples is to make it clear that He is speaking symbolically. But He does not do so because He is NOT speaking symbolically!
(3) John 13 describes the Last Supper, but unlike the other 3 Gospels, makes no mention of Jesus' institution of the sacrament of Holy Communion.
Why? Because the meaning of Communion bread and wine is already discussed in John 6:53-58 and John does not wish to be redundant.

btw, I'm a Protestant evangelical, not a Catholic.
 

Philip James

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btw, I'm a Protestant evangelical, not a Catholic.

Hello Beserk,

Knowing this, that begs the question: why are you not Catholic? Or Orthodox?

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Pax et Bonum

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!
 

Ronald Nolette

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What you have posted is what would NORMALLY happened at a Passover Sedar. But here is another point of view to think about:

The Passover meal was divided into four parts.

First, the preliminary course consisted of a festival blessing (kiddush) spoken over the first cup of wine, followed by the serving of a dish of herbs.

The second course included a recital of the Passover narrative and the “Little Hallel” (Psalm 113), followed by the drinking of the second cup of wine.

The third course was the main meal, consisting of lamb and unleavened bread, after which was drunk the third cup of wine, known as the “cup of blessing.” The Passover climaxed with the singing of the “Great Hallel” (Psalms 114-118) and the drinking of the fourth cup of wine.

New Testament scholars see this pattern reflected in the Gospel narratives of the Last Supper. In particular, the cup blessed and distributed by Jesus is identified as the third cup in the Passover Haggadah. This is apparent from the singing of the “Great Hallel” which immediately follows: “And when they had sung a hymn. . . .” (Mark 14:26). Indeed, Paul identifies this “cup of blessing” with the Eucharistic cup (1 Cor. 10:16).

At this point a significant problem arises. Instead of proceeding immediately to the climax of the Passover, the drinking of the fourth cup, we read: “And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives” (Mark 14:26). While it may be difficult for Gentile Christians unfamiliar with the Haggadah to perceive the serious disorder this sequence represents, it is not lost to Jewish readers and students of the seder. For them, Jesus skipping the fourth cup could be compared to a priest omitting the words of consecration at Mass. The fundamental purpose or goal of the liturgy seemingly was missed.

Not only is the omission conspicuous, it appears to be underscored by the words of Jesus in the preceding verse: “Truly, I say to you, I shall not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the Kingdom of God” (Mark 14:25). It is almost as though Jesus meant not to drink what he was expected to drink.


So now your theory about the myth of transubstantiation just vanished and the 2,000 year teaching of Christianity still holds true!


Sorry but I get my facts straight from the Jews and not Catholic scholars long removed from celebrating Pesach!

Hallel

The fourth cup is filled and Hallel is completed. The “other” Hallel is also said, as are other songs of praise from davening. A fifth cup is filled – Eliyahu’s Cup – which represents the fifth term of redemption, the coming of the Moshiach, and the building of the third Beit HaMikdash. Most people leave this cup undrunk, just as the fifth verse (from the Bikkurim portion) is currently left un-“darshened” since we have not yet been blessed with peace and tranquility in Eretz Yisrael, with all Jews here, etc. This sentiment is summed up by our prayerful statement – L’SHANA HABA’A B’YERUSHALAYIM HAB’NUYA – next year in rebuilt Jerusalem. When drinking the fourth cup, we should make sure to have at least a full REVI’IT so that the after-bracha can be said without doubt.

the fourth cup is filled (and drunk) and Hallel is finished. This is called the cup of redemption and this is the cup Jesus gave to the disciples!

The climax of many Seders is the fifth cup for Meshiach . Other verses and psalms ( a little hallel) then would be sung and conclusion. Many but not all! How do we know this is the fourth cup?

!. Based on Jewish testimony and writings detailing the Seder and the order.

2. the great Hellel which started earlier in the Sabbath ( singing of psalms 1134-118) Which concludes after the fourth cup.

sorry but your gentile roman scholars are just plain wrong!
 

Marymog

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Sorry but I get my facts straight from the Jews and not Catholic scholars long removed from celebrating Pesach!
Did you know that what I presented was NOT from a "Catholic scholar"? Of course you didn't!

And it was written LONG before the Protestant men you follow were even born.

Your ignorance of your own Christian history does not make you right. It just shows you have more studying to do.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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Did you know that what I presented was NOT from a "Catholic scholar"? Of course you didn't!

And it was written about LONG before the Protestant men you follow were even born.

Your ignorance of your own Christian history does not make you right. It just shows you have more studying to do.

Don't care if it is a catholic scholar or not. It could be from a MArtian for all I care, it is simply wrong according to those who celebrate Seder and have done so for nigh on 3500 years now! I will take their word about their feasts every day over the most devout Christian.
 
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Marymog

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I just warned an entire group to flee calvin , i only feel it right to warn all to flee the pits of the RCC as well .
Let us return to CHIRST and learn our bibles well .
Lol....So Calvin and anyone that agrees with Calvin didn't learn by reading the bible. And no man in the entire history of the Catholic Church didn't learn anything by reading the bible. But YOU did? I have a warning for you.....2 Peter 3:16
 

amigo de christo

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Lol....So Calvin and anyone that agrees with Calvin didn't learn by reading the bible. And no man in the entire history of the Catholic Church didn't learn anything by reading the bible. But YOU did? I have a warning for you.....2 Peter 3:16
By the grace of GOD that also put me IN that bible , its why i fled calvin as well as the RCC .
Christendom is in dire trouble , for many have left off the simplicty of Christ , of the truth in that bible
and have chosen to follow the god of self and heed men who twist things .
OPEN BIBLE , READ BIBLE , STAY IN PRAYER , GOD WILL give us understanding in time .
THE LORD keeps his sheep safe from the voice of contrary strangers who preach lies unto the masses .
AND PS , AINT no false teacher that preaches all lies , they always can speak some truths as well .
We just need to stop picking and choosing what scriptures to believe and what scriptures to omit or twist .
AND BELEIVE IT ALL as does a small child . BELIEVE IT and in time we grow more and more in knowledge
and undestanding as GOD keeps us safe from dangerous heretical teachers , OF WHICH THEIR ARE MANY .
 

Marymog

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Don't care if it is a catholic scholar or not. It could be from a MArtian for all I care, it is simply wrong according to those who celebrate Seder and have done so for nigh on 3500 years now! I will take their word about their feasts every day over the most devout Christian.
Oh....trust me Ronald. I know you don't care. You have made that very clear in all your past post. No matter how much logic or Scripture is put in front of you that destroys what your men have taught you....you don't care. I get it.

The only thing I ask you is to address the paragraph in my response to you that starts with: At this point a significant problem arises.

Can you explain away that "significant problem" to the theory you have been taught?

Patient Mary
 

Marymog

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By the grace of GOD that also put me IN that bible , its why i fled calvin as well as the RCC .
Christendom is in dire trouble , for many have left off the simplicty of Christ , of the truth in that bible
and have chosen to follow the god of self and heed men who twist things .
OPEN BIBLE , READ BIBLE , STAY IN PRAYER , GOD WILL give us understanding in time .
THE LORD keeps his sheep safe from the voice of contrary strangers who preach lies unto the masses .
AND PS , AINT no false teacher that preaches all lies , they always can speak some truths as well .
We just need to stop picking and choosing what scriptures to believe and what scriptures to omit or twist .
AND BELEIVE IT ALL as does a small child . BELIEVE IT and in time we grow more and more in knowledge
and undestanding as GOD keeps us safe from dangerous heretical teachers , OF WHICH THEIR ARE MANY .
Wow....You amigo are a wandering Christian who can't find anyone that agrees with you. You have been a Calvinist and a Catholic?

Well, I agree with you. Christendom is in dire trouble. When every wandering Christian thinks that they know the truth of the bible by simply opening it, reading it, in prayer and they FEEL like God has given them the understanding as a small child would, then YES, we are in trouble. When those wandering Christians thinks that ALL organized churches preach lies to the masses then YES...we are in trouble.

You will never preach lies to yourself.....Will you? ;)
 

amigo de christo

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Wow....You amigo are a wandering Christian who can't find anyone that agrees with you. You have been a Calvinist and a Catholic?

Well, I agree with you. Christendom is in dire trouble. When every wandering Christian thinks that they know the truth of the bible by simply opening it, reading it, in prayer and they FEEL like God has given them the understanding as a small child would, then YES, we are in trouble. When those wandering Christians thinks that ALL organized churches preach lies to the masses then YES...we are in trouble.

You will never preach lies to yourself.....Will you? ;)
i Have been neither catholic nor calvanist , I was kept safe from all that . My path has never changed
from day one . Its always been the voice of the great shepard that i , by grace , have followed .
He didnt save me cause i was anything special , I WAS WOW , that means WORST OF WORST .
But one day Grace was sent and i beleived and HE changed my heart and my total direction from darkness unto light
from lies unto truth , HE DID that . His love HE shed upon my heart . I did not change me , HE drew me
and HE changed me . PUT me right in that BIBLE TOO with such a love of reading it .
OPEN BIBLE , READ BIBLE , PRAY OFTEN , Cease the prayers to angels , to saints and to mary
AND JUST learn that bible my friend . Those who have done so within even a false religoin
have in time come out from amongst them . Hurry marymog . I pray for you and wish you only life and not death .
ITS WHY i plead you come out of her and learn CHRIST for yourself .
 
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Marymog

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i Have been neither catholic nor calvanist ,....
Ah...now I see. You said that you fled Calvin and Catholic teaching. So it sounds like you studied both, determined both were wrong and then went out on your own to figure out the Truth of Scripture?
 

Marymog

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that the after-bracha can be said without doubt.

the fourth cup is filled (and drunk) and Hallel is finished. This is called the cup of redemption and this is the cup Jesus gave to the disciples!
Nope, not true. That is not what happened at The Last Supper! More studying for you....
 

Marymog

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i Have been neither catholic nor calvanist , I was kept safe from all that . My path has never changed
from day one . Its always been the voice of the great shepard that i , by grace , have followed .
He didnt save me cause i was anything special , I WAS WOW , that means WORST OF WORST .
But one day Grace was sent and i beleived and HE changed my heart and my total direction from darkness unto light
from lies unto truth , HE DID that . His love HE shed upon my heart . I did not change me , HE drew me
and HE changed me . PUT me right in that BIBLE TOO with such a love of reading it .
OPEN BIBLE , READ BIBLE , PRAY OFTEN , Cease the prayers to angels , to saints and to mary
AND JUST learn that bible my friend . Those who have done so within even a false religoin
have in time come out from amongst them . Hurry marymog . I pray for you and wish you only life and not death .
ITS WHY i plead you come out of her and learn CHRIST for yourself .
Open your bible. Read your bible and Pray for an answer to this question: How do you fulfil Matthew 18:17?

Curious Mary
 

amigo de christo

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Ah...now I see. You said that you fled Calvin and Catholic teaching. So it sounds like you studied both, determined both were wrong and then went out on your own to figure out the Truth of Scripture?
No . i simply read the bible . I also desired fellowship with others as well .
Every time i went into a church , the praise was good , yet the doctrine left me empty .
Now i did not know why that was ,AT FIRST , but soon by grace as i was learning
i learned why . THEY were teaching sensual carnal wordly versions and using what little bible they did
to try and justify their own fouled up teachings . YET every time and every day i was reading that bible
it was joyous , peaceful , edifying . YET the doctrine in churches was not at all .
Yet the bible was . The longer by grace i stayed in that bible , the wiser by that same grace i became .
GOD never allowed me , even when i did not have knowledge to discern them as false , to follow them .
HE never gave me peace nor edification . Now after , by grace i had been built up
later i began to try and help some of said leaders . Always polite , always respsectful , BUT THEY WOULD NOT HEED
At that point i had to leave . If the leaders who lead the church are tanked , what hope does that church have .
I never visited the CC . But i had read some of their books in the library . Written by CATHOLICS who approved of that church .
AND YET i saw error upon error BIG TIME TOO . NOT just littel errors , i mean mega major ones .
I was searching for a church . So i did read a litttle of what joseph smith had even said .
THAT TOOK all of about three minutes to FLEE that man . HIMS MEGA FALSE .
I did study some of the early anabaptists . Some within them have error , but some of them were spot on right .
AS always you will have twisted teachers in any denonimation . YET their teaching was TRUE .
Munster was a real bad seed amonst them . HE even taught rebellion and to pick up arms and fight .
YET at least some of them actually did preach wonderful good truth .
As i am sure some , few , but some still do today . Later movements came in like jakob ammon and others
who did twist some things .
Now ROME , it is highly dangerous , as is the JW , the mormon , and sadly even the SEVEN dayers .
BUT worse they have gotten . Even some churches , not those , who had preached truth once
are fast selling it out and have sold it out . THE HARLOT has come for her daughters and is unifying them all now .
AND all not in the lambs book of life will buy her lie and the delusion which is and which is growing . THE LIE .
Folks cannot see what is going on . Satan knows how to use words like love , tolerance , unity too .
ONLY he is unifying them under a false love , a false unity . Folks cannot see
that even all religoins are now being merged to be as one . AND by that i dont mean just the faiths within chrsitendom
I MEAN muslims too , buddists too . Almost seventy percent of Christendom now believes GOD is fine with all paths of all religoins .
AND GUESS WHO is leading in that one . POPE franicis , and i dont blame him for it all , other popes
have helped to do this and bring it about . WE cannot go under that false religoin , the we are one , all inclusive unity lie .
YET MANY ARE . ITS THE LIE . THE Total betrayal of even the very gospel many claimed . My advice is
we better get out of those churches and start learing SOME BIBLE FOR OURSELVES .
 
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Marymog

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No . i simply read the bible . I also desired fellowship with others as well .
Every time i went into a church , the praise was good , yet the doctrine left me empty .
Now i did not know why that was ,AT FIRST , but soon by grace as i was learning
i learned why . THEY were teaching sensual carnal wordly versions and using what little bible they did
to try and justify their own fouled up teachings . YET every time and every day i was reading that bible
it was joyous , peaceful , edifying . YET the doctrine in churches was not at all .
Yet the bible was . The longer by grace i stayed in that bible , the wiser by that same grace i became .
GOD never allowed me , even when i did not have knowledge to discern them as false , to follow them .
HE never gave me peace nor edification . Now after , by grace i had been built up
later i began to try and help some of said leaders . Always polite , always respsectful , BUT THEY WOULD NOT HEED
At that point i had to leave . If the leaders who lead the church are tanked , what hope does that church have .
I never visited the CC . But i had read some of their books in the library . Written by CATHOLICS who approved of that church .
AND YET i saw error upon error BIG TIME TOO . NOT just littel errors , i mean mega major ones .
I was searching for a church . So i did read a litttle of what joseph smith had even said .
THAT TOOK all of about three minutes to FLEE that man . HIMS MEGA FALSE .
I did study some of the early anabaptists . Some within them have error , but some of them were spot on right .
AS always you will have twisted teachers in any denonimation . YET their teaching was TRUE .
Munster was a real bad seed amonst them . HE even taught rebellion and to pick up arms and fight .
YET at least some of them actually did preach wonderful good truth .
As i am sure some , few , but some still do today . Later movements came in like jakob ammon and others
who did twist some things .
Now ROME , it is highly dangerous , as is the JW , the mormon , and sadly even the SEVEN dayers .
BUT worse they have gotten . Even some churches , not those , who had preached truth once
are fast selling it out and have sold it out . THE HARLOT has come for her daughters and is unifying them all now .
AND all not in the lambs book of life will buy her lie and the delusion which is and which is growing . THE LIE .
Folks cannot see what is going on . Satan knows how to use words like love , tolerance , unity too .
ONLY he is unifying them under a false love , a false unity . Folks cannot see
that even all religoins are now being merged to be as one . AND by that i dont mean just the faiths within chrsitendom
I MEAN muslims too , buddists too . Almost seventy percent of Christendom now believes GOD is fine with all paths of all religoins .
AND GUESS WHO is leading in that one . POPE franicis , and i dont blame him for it all , other popes
have helped to do this and bring it about . WE cannot go under that false religoin , the we are one , all inclusive unity lie .
YET MANY ARE . ITS THE LIE . THE Total betrayal of even the very gospel many claimed . My advice is
we better get out of those churches and start learing SOME BIBLE FOR OURSELVES .
Thank you. It sounds like everyone is in error except you.

Peace be with you....Mary
 

amigo de christo

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Thank you. It sounds like everyone is in error except you.

Peace be with you....Mary
Nope , i never said that . I said some churches still do preach truth till this day if ya read all of what i said .
But most DONT . And by DONT i mean NOT Even close to the TRUTH . Its a sesspool .
And out of great love for your soul , for i desire only good for you and a good ending forever in CHRIST FOR YOU ,
I am doing all to try and help you . As i have with thee faith , and not just catholics
but many protestants i have tried to help as well .
We are simply in a massive falling away that is getting worse by the day and the hour .
I desire LIFE for all , thus i must point to CHRIST and HIS sound doctrine and all the doctrine the aposetls also left us in that bible .
Only many will not budge from what their sensual teachers have taught them .
There are some of us who even meet in private . Some on the phone too .
The lambs will gather , even if its in little groups . My desire IS GOOD for the people , ITS LIFE for them .
I pray for those who even hate me and persecute me . MY desire is only good for them too .
BUT WE had better wake up and fast . Cause many are not gonna make it and i say that with a real heavy and sad heart for them .
 
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quietthinker

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What do you use to catch an internet troll?
Clickbait.
You say you want conversation Mm yet you disqualify yourself in comments like the one above!
You categorise yourself as patient yet name calling tells the truth!
 

Brakelite

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Nice dodge kiddo.....Not going to work.

Scripture says that whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the LORD. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.

You and your Protestant teaching have connected the eating of bread to eating His words. So please explain how one can eat his words and bring judgment upon himself? Your THEORY has nothing to do with a response to those words so your dodgeball response wont fly with me.
It is the Spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing:
 

Ronald Nolette

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New Testament scholars see this pattern reflected in the Gospel narratives of the Last Supper. In particular, the cup blessed and distributed by Jesus is identified as the third cup in the Passover Haggadah. This is apparent from the singing of the “Great Hallel” which immediately follows: “And when they had sung a hymn. . . .” (Mark 14:26). Indeed, Paul identifies this “cup of blessing” with the Eucharistic cup (1 Cor. 10:16).

At this point a significant problem arises. Instead of proceeding immediately to the climax of the Passover, the drinking of the fourth cup, we read: “And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives” (Mark 14:26). While it may be difficult for Gentile Christians unfamiliar with the Haggadah to perceive the serious disorder this sequence represents, it is not lost to Jewish readers and students of the seder. For them, Jesus skipping the fourth cup could be compared to a priest omitting the words of consecration at Mass. The fundamental purpose or goal of the liturgy seemingly was missed.


There is no problem. the problem arises with Christian Scholars making assumption as to which cup was drank! but the Passage in Mark:

22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.

23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.

24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

26 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

clearly shows they drsank teh fourth cup (the cup of redemption) sang teh hymn to conclude Haggadah and went out to the Mount of Olives! According to Jews who celebrate Passover seder:

3. “Kos Sh’lishi” – The Third Cup

The third cup is drunk at the conclusion of the “Bircat HaMazon,” the Blessing which we recite at the end of a full meal. It represents our gratitude to Hashem for being the “Zan et HaKol,” the One Who sustains all of Creation, Who showers blessings upon the Land of Israel, during Festivals the One Who defined the unique holiness of each, and the One Who is rebuilding and will continue to rebuild Jerusalem.

4. “Kos Revii” – The Fourth Cup

This cup is drunk after the concluding portion of Hallel is recited. According to Jewish Tradition, this portion is focused on the future, and asks G-d to redeem Israel and humanity-at-large, and usher in the period spoken of by the Prophets, in which “Nishmat kol chai tevarech et shimecha, Hashem” “The soul of every living thing will bless Your Name, O G-d.”

At that time, all of humanity will come to the realization that “lecha tov l’hodot, u’leshimecha naeh lezamer,” “to you it is good to give thanks, and to Your Name it is fitting to sing,” because truly, Hashem is the “Melech Kel, Chai HaOlamim,” “Almighty King, Life of the Universe.”

Blessings are recited before and after the drinking of the Cup, and the Seder is thereby concluded.

Jesus fulfilled all points of the law and would have conducted the full Haggadah service and this drunk the fourth cup (cup of redemption), sang a hymn and then go to Olivet.

the only problem is Christian Scholars trying to revise how Jesus conducted Passover!