A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

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ChristisGod

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You are peddling the falsehood. Every Epistle's prologue recognizes God the Father and a separate being, Jesus, including Peter.

May grace and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus, the Anointed One, surround you. First, I thank my God through Jesus the Anointed for all of you. Romans 1:7-8

I pray that God our Father and the Lord Jesus, the Anointed One, will shower you with grace and peace. 1 Cor 1:3

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
2 Corinthians 1:2

I was not appointed by any group of people or any human authority, but by Jesus Christ himself and by God the Father, who raised Jesus from the dead.
Galatians 1:1

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
Ephesians 1:2

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
Philippians 1:2

May God our Father give you grace and peace. Colossians 1:2

We are writing to the church in Thessalonica, to you who belong to God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 & 2 Thessalonians 1:1

May God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord give you grace, mercy, and peace.1 & 2 Timothy 1:2

May God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior give you grace and peace.
Titus 1:4

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
Philemon 1:3

For God never said to any angel what he said to Jesus: “You are my Son. Today I have become your Father.” God also said, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son. Hebrews 1:5

Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring. James 1:27

God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. 1 Peter 1:2

when he received honor and glory from God the Father. 2 Peter 1:17

We proclaim ... our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
1 John 1:3 (NOTE: Again no reference to the HS)

Grace, mercy, and peace, which come from God the Father. 2 John 1:3

He has made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father. Revelation 1:6
lol you ran from 2 Peter 1:1
 

Wrangler

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1 John 5:20 calls Him the true God.

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You are not able to answer questions. All you do is throw one thing after another that you think supports your position. However, your failure to entertain my one question, entertain evidence contrary to your position, shows the weakness of it.

If Jesus were God, why would he say he has a God and his God is the only true God?
 
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ChristisGod

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He
You are not able to answer questions. All you do is throw one thing after another that you think supports your position. However, your failure to entertain my one question, entertain evidence contrary to your position, shows the weakness of it.

If Jesus were God, why would he say he has a God and his God is the only true God?
He is also a man. Let me know when you can come up with a real argument/ objection.



Hypostatic Union

1. Jesus is a person. (1 Tim 2:5)

2. Jesus, the Person, has two natures- Divine and human (John 1:1, 14, 1 Timothy 3:16): Divine and human. This is the Hypostatic Union.( Col 2:9, Heb 1:3,2:16)

3. The Communicatio Idiomatum (Communication of the Properties) states that the attributes of His Divine nature and human nature are both ascribed to the one Person of Jesus. So Jesus can exhibit attributes of Divinity (Omnipresence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, . John 2:23, 3:13, 8:58, He was prayed to in Acts 7:59, John 14:13, He was is worshiped Matt 2:2:11, Rev 5:13-14) and at the same time exhibit attributes of His humanity( He was tempted, ate, prayed,wept, grew in wisdom and stature,was anointed,was baptized, the Father was greater, didn’t know the day or the hour of His Return, He cried My God my God why has Thou forsaken Me, He died etc.). The communicatio idiomatum does not mean that any part of the Divine nature was communicated to the human nature.

4. The Man(anthropos) Jesus is what we perceive (if we were there 2000 years ago in Israel) and through the Man we encounter the Divine nature (Jesus knowing all things, is on earth while in heaven, answers prayer, forgiving sins, etc.).

5. The Person of Jesus will always be both Divine and human. (John 1:1,14,20:28, 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5) Those who deny this fact are the spirit of antichrist. (1 John 4:1-4,2 John 7)

6. The Divine Nature is within the Trinity.(Father, Son and Holy Spirit)

7. Since the Person of Jesus claims the attributes of Divinity(John 3:13,8:58,Matthew 9:2,12:8), then the Person of Jesus is a member of the Trinity.( John 14-16, Math 28:19)

Anything said of either of Christ's two natures applies to the one Person of Christ, so that is how it is said that Christ died on the cross. The term "hypostatic union" refers to the two natures united in the one Person, so anything said of those two natures in the one Person applies to the whole Person. So we see that the Person of Christ is both God and man. The phrase hypostatic union was adopted by the fifth general council at Constantinople, 533 AD. That council declared that the union of two natures is real (against Arius), not a mere indwelling of God in a man (against Nestorius), with a rational soul (against Apollinaris), and that in Christ’s Divine nature remains unchanged (against Eutyches).


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tigger 2

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Christophany wrote a convoluted post concerning "first and last" and "Alpha and Omega".

“First and Last”

The Greek for the “first and last” at Is. 44:6; 48:12; and Rev. 1:17. Actually you might prefer to call this a “description-confusion trick” since Jehovah calls himself Protos kai ego meta tauta - “First and I [am] hereafter” - Septuagint, Is. 44:6; AND Protos kai ego eimi eis ton aiona - I am the first and I am into the ages" - Septuagint. Is. 48:12. Whereas Jesus calls himself ho protos kai ho eskatos - “The first and the last” - somewhat similar descriptions but much different wording and therefore not titles. (We also find that actual titles, like personal names, are capitalized in English translation. But notice how 'first and last', unlike 'Alpha and Omega,' for example, are not capitalized in many Bible translations.)

Is. 44:6 - “Thus saith Jehovah, ... I am the first and I am the last; and besides me there is no God ...." - ASV.

Rev. 1:17, 18 - “... And he laid his right hand upon me, saying, Fear not; I am the first and the last, and the Living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.” - ASV.

The trinitarian “proof” goes like this: “since only one can be first (and last), and since Jehovah is ‘first’ (and ‘last’) and Jesus is also ‘first’ (and ‘last’), then they must both be the same one!” Therefore, they say, Jesus must be Jehovah!
The answer is, of course, that there can be many who are “first and last.” We must discover, from context, in what sense they are “first and last.”

For example, in the Biblical understanding of the meaning of the term “first and last” (or “only”), Adam was “the first and last” human created from the dust of the earth. But calling him “the first and the last” would certainly not mean he is Jehovah, and it does not mean he is Jesus (although any devious Bible student could find such “evidence” at 1 Cor. 15:45)!

We could certainly call Jesus “The first and the last” because he was the first and last (only) direct creation by Jehovah himself. The rest of creation from Jehovah came through Jesus (see study on “Beginning, Wisdom, and Firstborn” - BWF).

But, instead of speculating on the many ways Jesus could be considered the “first and the last” (only), we need to examine the use of “first and last” in context to discover in what sense it probably was intended originally!

Examining Is. 44:6 we see that “first and last” refers to Jehovah being the only person who is the Most High God: “I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God.” - compare Is. 44:8.

Now if we examine Rev. 1:17, 18, we can see in what sense “the first and last” (only) is intended there. Context shows that it is not (as it could have been) in the sense of the only direct creation by the Father, Jehovah, and it is certainly not in the sense of the only true God (John 17:1, 3), but it clearly refers to the resurrection (the dying and then living again) of Jesus!

Notice that the entire context refers to death and being raised to eternal life by the Father Himself: Rev. 1:17, 18:
“I am the first and the last, and the living one; and I was [or ‘became’] dead, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of death ...” - compare Rev. 2:8 (the only other place Jesus calls himself “the first and the last”).
Jehovah, the Father, uses the expression at Rev. 22:13 - see the study on the “Speaker Confusion Trick” (AO) - and makes no reference to dying and living again, apparently intending it as he did at Is. 44:6 - “I am the only God.”

So in what sense is Jesus the first and last resurrected person? Just as he was the first and last (only) of Jehovah’s direct creations (and all other things were created through Jesus), so Jesus was also the first and last (only one) of those resurrected to eternal life who was resurrected directly by the Father (Jehovah) Himself (and all others are resurrected through Jesus who now has “the keys of death”) - see John 6:39, 40; Acts 3:26; Acts 13:30, 33, 38.
 
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tigger 2

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Is Jesus ‘Alpha and Omega’ in Rev. 22?

Now look at Rev. 22:8-16. John is identified as the speaker in 22:8. The angel speaks in 9). The angel apparently continues speaking in 10). The angel may be still speaking in 11) --- or it could be John or even someone else (as implied in verse 10 in the NAB,1970 ed.).

Now is the angel still speaking in 12) or is it God, or is it Jesus, or even John? There is simply no way of telling who the speaker is from any of the early Bible manuscripts. It’s entirely a matter of translator’s choice. Some translators have decided it is the angel who continues to speak, and they punctuate it accordingly. So the JB, and NJB use quotation marks to show that these are all words spoken by the angel.

However, the RSV, NRSV, NASB, NEB, REB, NKJV, NAB (1991 ed.), ESV, ISV, NLT, 21st Century King James Version, Third Millenium Bible, and TEV show by their use of quotation marks that someone else is now speaking in verse 12. Most Bibles indicate that the person who spoke verse 12 (whether God, angel, Jesus, or John) also spoke verse 13 (“I am Alpha and Omega”).

Now the big question is: Is it clear that the speaker(s) of verses 12 and 13 continues to speak? Some Bibles indicate this. But other respected trinitarian translations do not!

The RSV, NRSV, NASB, NEB, REB, NKJV, NAB (1991 ed.), ESV, ISV, NLT, 21st Century King James Version, Third Millennium Bible, and TEV show (by quotation marks and indenting) that Rev. 22:14 and 15 are not the words of the speaker of verses 12 and 13 but are John’s words.

(The Jerusalem Bible and the NJB show us that the angel spoke all the words from verse 10 through verse 15.) Then they show Jesus as a new speaker beginning to speak in verse 16.

So, if you insist that the person speaking just before verse 16 is the same person who is speaking in verse 16, then, according to the trinitarian RSV, NRSV, NASB, NEB, REB, NKJV, NAB (1991 ed.), ESV, ISV, NLT, 21st Century King James Version, Third Millennium Bible, and TEV, you are saying John is Jesus!!! (According to the JB and NJB you would be insisting that the angel is Jesus!)

And, just as the use of “I, John” indicated a new speaker in Revelation, so does the only other such usage in that same book. Yes, Rev. 22:16 - “I, Jesus” also introduces a new speaker. This means, of course, that the previous statement (“I am the Alpha and Omega”) was made by someone else!

Even the KJV translators have shown by their use of the word “his” in verse 14 that they didn’t mean that Jesus was the same speaker as the Alpha and Omega. The speaker of verse 13 is Almighty God. The comment in verse 14 of these Bibles (as literally translated from the Received Text) explains the importance of doing “His Commandments” (not “My Commandments”)! Therefore the speaker of verse 14 is obviously not God as clearly stated by those Bibles which were translated from the Received Text, e.g., KJV; NKJV; KJIIV; MKJV; Young’s Literal Translation; Webster Bible (by Noah Webster); and Revised Webster Bible. Lamsa’s translation (Holy Bible From the Ancient Eastern Text) also uses “him.“

So we can easily see that there is no reason to say Jesus spoke the words recorded at Rev. 22:13 (or the above-named trinitarian Bibles would surely have so translated it!) and, in fact, the context really identifies the speaker as being the same person who spoke at Rev. 1:8, God Almighty, Jehovah, the Father.

The only other use of the title “Alpha and Omega” confirms this understanding.

“And He who sits on the throne said, ‘Behold, I am making all things new.’ .... And He said to me, ‘It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. .... He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.’” - Rev. 21:5-7, NASB.

“Revelation 21:6, 7 indicates that Christians who are spiritual conquerors are to be ‘sons’ of the one known as the Alpha and the Omega. That is never said of the relationship of spirit-anointed Christians to Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke of them as his ‘brothers.’ (Heb. 2:11; Matt. 12:50; 25:40) But those ‘brothers’ of Jesus are referred to as ‘sons of God [the Father].’ (Gal. 3:26; 4:6).” - pp. 412-413, Reasoning from the Scriptures, WBTS, 1985.

So Rev. 21:6, 7 confirms the understanding that the Alpha and Omega is the Father, not Jesus.

In short, there is no reason, other than a desire to support the trinity tradition, to believe that Jesus is being called “Alpha and Omega” in Rev. 22. And there is good evidence to believe that it is his Father only who uses this title for himself.
 
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tigger 2

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1 John 5:20 calls Him the true God.

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1 JOHN 5:20

1 Jn 5:20 - "his Son, Jesus Christ. This [outos] is the true [alethinos] God, and eternal life." - KJV.

"We are in union with him who is true, through his son, Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life." – AT.

"his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and life everlasting." - NWT.

Some complain about the interpretation of 1 John 5:20 by JW's! Obviously the translation itself is little different from most trinitarian translations.

Some trinitarians actually insist that the word "this" (outos) here refers to Jesus. In other words, "[Jesus Christ] is the true God and eternal life."

I understand why trinitarians are so desperate in their search for scriptural "evidence" that they have to make it up, but this is incredibly poor!

It is obvious that grammatically the word "this" (outos) could be referring to either the Father or Jesus in this particular scripture (see the footnote for 1 John 5:20 in the very trinitarian NIV Study Bible and the comments on 1 Jn 5:20 by the extremely trinitarian scholar A. T. Robertson in his Word Pictures, Vol. VI, p. 245.). But the fact that the true God (or "the true One") has just been identified as the Father of Jesus (1 Jn 5:20, TEV and GNB) makes it highly probable that "this is the true God" refers to the Father, not Jesus.

The highly trinitarian NT scholar Murray J. Harris sums up his 13-page analysis of this scripture as follows:

"Although it is certainly possible that outos refers back to Jesus Christ, several converging lines of evidence point to `the true one,' God the Father, as the probable antecedent. This position, outos = God [Father], is held by many commentators, authors of general studies, and significantly, by those grammarians who express an opinion on the matter." - p. 253, Jesus as God, Baker Book House, 1992.

Notice how this trinitarian scholar actually admits that the probability is that the Father (not Jesus) is being called the true God here. He even tells us (and cites examples in his footnotes) that New Testament grammarians and commentators (most of them trinitarian, of course) agree!

So this single "proof" that the "true God" is a title for anyone other than the Father alone is not proof at all. The grammar alone merely makes it a possibility. The immediate context makes it highly improbable since (as in all other uses of the term) the true God (or the true one) was just identified as the Father ("We are in the one who is true as we are in his Son, Jesus Christ. He is the true God and this is eternal life." - NJB; and "We know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we know the true God. We live in union with the true God - in union with his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and this is eternal life." - TEV.).

So the immediate context makes it probable that the true God is the Father in this scripture also. If we include the context of all the uses of the `true God' in the NT, it is certain that He is the Father (whose personal name is Jehovah - Jer. 10:10, ASV; Ps. 83:18, KJV; Ex. 3:15, NEB). A quick glance at 1 Thess. 1:9 and 10, for example makes it very clear that "the true God" is the Father.

To clinch John's intended meaning at 1 John 5:20, let's look at his only other use of the term "the true God": John 17:1, 3, where, again (as in 1 Jn 5:20), he mentions Father, Son, and eternal life.

At John 17:1, 3 Jesus prays to the Father: "Father, .... this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." - New International Version (NIV). Here the Father alone is not only very clearly identified as the only true [alethinos] God, but Jesus Christ is again pointedly and specifically excluded from that identification ("and Jesus Christ whom you [the only true God] have sent")!

Notice how this respected trinitarian Bible has rendered John 17:1, 3 - "Father,....This is eternal life: to know thee who alone art truly God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." - New English Bible (NEB).
 
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ChristisGod

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@tigger 2


Jesus is eternal life, He is life. We see this over and over again in the Apostle Johns writings. In Him was LIFE and that LIFE was the light of man. Life of the world, the Bread of LIFE,My words are spirit and they are LIFE, I AM the way,the truth and the LIFE,The LIFE was manifested and we proclaim to you the ETERNAL Life which was with the Father, and was manifested to us- The Prologue of 1st John. So we see that when John uses the phrase True God and Eternal Life together in 1 John 5:20 that He is referring to Christ as the closest antecedent making Him the True God and Eternal Life.

Also we see that when we search the NT that Eternal Life is never used of the Father without the Son but we see that Eternal Life is used over and over with Jesus where the Father is never mentioned. This makes a solid case for Jesus in 1 John 5:20 as the True God and Eternal Life.

1 John 5:20
20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true — even in his Son Jesus Christ. He(Jesus) is the true God and eternal life.

On behalf of seeing χριστος as the antecedent are the following arguments: (1) Although it is true that αληθινος θεος is not elsewhere referred to Christ, αληθεια is, and is so in Johannine literature (John 14:6).

29 Winer-Moulton, 195.
Further, αληθινος θεος is not a "constant.. epithet" as Winer supposes, being found only in John 17:3 and 1 John 5:20! (2) Christ is also said to be ζωη in John's writings John 11:25; 14:6; 1 John 1:1-2), an epithet nowhere else used of the Father. (3) The demonstrative pronoun, ουτος, in the Gospel and Epistles of John seems to be used in a theologically rich manner.30 Specifically, of the approximately seventy instances in which ουτος has a personal referent, as many as forty- four of them (almost two-thirds of the instances) refer to the Son. Of the remainder, most imply some sort of positive connection with the Son.31 What is most significant is that never is the Father the referent.For what it is worth, this datum increases the probability that ιησου χριστω is the antecedent in 1 John 5:20. 32 The issue cannot be decided on grammar alone. But suffice it to say here that there are no grammatical reasons for denying that αληθινος θεος is descriptive of Jesus Christ.

1st- Jesus is called God in the writings of John(1:1,20:28,1 John 5:20)

2nd- Jesus is called Eternal Life over and over again in Johns writings

3rd- John opens up his epistle with the Eternal life(Jesus) that was with the Father in the beginning and was manifest to the disciples(1 John 1:1-5)

4th- John ends his epistle with Jesus who is eternal life and only is eternal life found in Him who is the true God.

5th- never is eternal life used of the Father alone. When the Father is included the Son is always mentioned together with the Father making them equal. Equality with the Father was not something Jesus needed to grasp at as He already possessed complete Deity as God.(Phil 2, Col 2:9)

6th- John would not leave his readers with any ambiguity warning them to guard themselves from idols(5:21) So this would be clear his reference was to those who reject Jesus as the true God. They are the idoloters and antichrists John writes of in his epistles.

7th- Jesus is also the True God and the True one in 1 John. Jesus is the true light which brings light to all men (John 1:9) Jesus is the truth (John 14:6)Jesus is the true vine (John 15:1). Jesus is the true witness of God (John 18:37) He who is true (Revelation 3:7) Jesus is the faithful and true witness (Revelation 3:14)Jesus is Lord God Almighty, Just and true are your ways(Revelation 15:3) Jesus is faithful and true(Revelation 19:11).

8th- [In John's writings] Of the approximately 70 instances in which ουτος has a personal referent, as many as 44 of them (almost 2/3 . . . ) refer to the Son. Of the remainder, most imply some sort of positive connection with the Son.31 What is most significant is that NEVER is the Father the referent.FWIW, this datum increases the probability that ιησου χριστω IS the antecedent in 1 John 5:20. Wallace.

So the most logical conclusion is that it refers to Jesus as the true God. Not only is this Wallace's conclusion from Johns usage of outos but He is the closest antecedent (most times in the NT this principal holds true). Eternal Life is never used of the Father alone in John’s writings and only a couple of times does John include the Father with the Son regarding eternal life. John opens up his epistles describing the "eternal life" who was with the Father in the beginning and then ends his epistle with eternal life identifying Jesus as the true God and eternal life. John then says this in the last verse:

1 John 5:21-Guard yourselves from idols

Now why would he leave any ambiguity in verse 20 as to the identity of the true God and eternal life then turn around commanding them to protect themselves from idolatry? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever unless John is identifying Jesus as the true God and refuting the Gnostics of his day who denied the Incarnation.
 

ChristisGod

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Continued:



More evidence from Scripture that Jesus is life, the source of that life and eternal life itself. Apart from Him there is no life. This cannot be said of a mere man now can it ?

John 1:4
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

John 5:39-40
39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about Me, 40 yet you refuse to come to Me to have life.

John 6:33
For the bread of God is He which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

John 6:35
35 And Jesus said unto them, I Am the bread of life:

John 6:47
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on Me hath everlasting life.

John 6:51
51 I Am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 6:53
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

John 6:63
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 10:10
10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

John 11:25-26
25 Jesus said to her, "I Am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I Am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

John 20:30-31
30 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

1 John 1:1-2
1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life — 2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us

1 John 5:12-13
12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

1 John 5:20
20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in Him who is true — even in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.


And Jesus said no one knows the Father but through the Son. They are One in nature,essence or being. You cannot have One without the Other. This can be said of no man unless that man is also God in the flesh which Jesus is indeed !

John 5:23
so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 6:45-51
Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 "I am the bread of life. 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 "This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."

John 10:14-16
4 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

John 10:25-30
"I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."

John 10:38-39
38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father." 39 Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp.

John 14:6
"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

John 14:9
"Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

John 16:15
"All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you


And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life."


We can see from other passages from the same author the Apostle John that Jesus is called the eternal life. In 1st John 1 Jesus is called "the word of life", "the life" and "the eternal life which was with the Father" (verse 2). Jesus is life itself John 1:4 and He said the following "I am the way, the truth and the life!" He also said whoever believes in Him shall have eternal life (John 3:15). So we can see that Jesus by definition in I John 1:2 is "the eternal life", and in 1 John 5:20 is called "The true God and Eternal Life".

Jesus is the true vine (John 15:1)
Jesus is also the true light (John 1:9)
Jesus is faithful and true (Revelation 19:11)
Jesus is the faithful and true witness (Revelation 3:14)
Jesus is the truth (John 14:6)
Jesus is the true witness (John 18:37)
Jesus is He who is holy, He who is true(Revelation 3:7)

So I John 5:20 teaches us clearly that we are in the Son, Jesus Christ, and that He is the True One, even "the true God and Eternal Life".

It's time you repent and confess Jesus is the true God and Eternal life, for without such confession one is left in their sin(John 8:24) You must believe Jesus is the great I Am.
 

DavidB

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To me this is simple and you don’t even have to compare other verses.

1 John 5:20
“We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know “him”(him who? God) who is true.
And we are in “him” (him who? God) who is true — even in “his” Son (whose Son? God his Father) Jesus Christ.
He (He who? Same as the others - God the Father)
is the true God and eternal life.

The Son is distinct from the pronouns in this verse. The Son is “his.” He belongs to “him.” The Son came so we can get to know the Father. “Him,” “His” and “He” are all referring to his God. Jesus gives us eternal life because his God and Father has him doing so. We need to know the Son also.
 
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ChristisGod

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Wrong. Jesus’ great I am was admitting he was the Messiah, not God incarnate. See Mark 14:62-62.
Of course He was the Messiah since the messiah is Divine.


Zechariah 2:8-13
For this is what the Lord Almighty says: "After he has honored me and has sent me against the nations that have plundered you — for whoever touches you touches the apple of his eye — 9 I will surely raise my hand against them so that their slaves will plunder them. Then you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me.10 "Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you," declares the Lord. 11 "Many nations will be joined with the Lord in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you. 12 The Lord will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land and will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be still before the Lord, all mankind, because he has roused himself from his holy dwelling."

Jeremiah 23:5-6
"The days are coming," declares the Lord,
"when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.
6 In his days Judah will be saved
and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
The Lord Our Righteousness.

Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

Isaiah 9:6-7
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.

Micah 5:2
"But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity."

Daniel 7:9-14
I kept looking Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 "A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.
11 "Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire. 12 "As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.13 "I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 "And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations, and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Malachi 3:1-3
"Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the Lord of hosts. 2 "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3 "And He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the Lord offerings in righteousness.

Malachi 4:5-6
"Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. 6 "And he will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse."

Zechariah 12:1-10
This is the word of the Lord concerning Israel. The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares: 2 "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness," declares the Lord. "I will keep a watchful eye over the house of Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the leaders of Judah will say in their hearts, 'The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.'6 "On that day I will make the leaders of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume right and left all the surrounding peoples, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.7 "The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem's inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Matthew 1:22-24
22 Now all this took place that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet might be fulfilled, saying, 23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which translated means, "God with us."


next
 

Wrangler

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Of course He was the Messiah since the messiah is Divine.

Divine, in the sense of being ‘of God but not a deity.

The Messiah is a Hebrew title that in Greek means Christ, which in English means Anointed. Jesus is the Christ. Jesus is the Anointed.

His very title informs us that he is the passive object. Who did the Anointing? The same who selected him Acts 3:13. God, who is the Father of us all.
 

Kermos

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If Scripture seems to contradict itself then we should think that we must have misunderstood part of it. In the case of Titus 2:13 (WEB):

(13) looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ;

you have understood it to mean that Jesus is both God and Saviour. However, that is in contradiction to many other verses of Gods' word (and God would not contradict Himself), so we should look for a different, more harmonious meaning. The verse is talking about the glory of God and the glory of our Saviour. Compare with Matthew 16:27 and 25:31 (WEB):

(16:27) For the Son of Man will come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will render to everyone according to his deeds.
(25:31) “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory.

John saw Jesus in his glory when he was transfigured, and so he wrote, John 1:14:

(14) The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory as of the one and only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jesus also talked of his glory, John 17:24:

(24) Father, I desire that they also whom you have given me be with me where I am, that they may see my glory, which you have given me, for you loved me before the foundation of the world.

God has glory, and so does Jesus. Titus 2:13 is referring to the appearing of the glory of God and also the glory of Jesus.


Similarly in 2 Peter 1:1:

(1) Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

The subject is the righteousness; again it's not saying that Jesus is both God and Saviour, it's saying that God is righteous, and so also is Jesus.

The logical "and" in the phrase "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13) is linguistically tied to Jesus Christ because the word "hope" is singular as well as the word "glory" is singular in the phrase "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of" (Titus 2:13); therefore, Paul singularly refers to "our great God" and "Savior" and "Christ Jesus" as One singular.

See that linguistically, "hope" and "glory" would need to be plural in order for "our great God" and "Savior" and "Christ Jesus" to be disassociated in the evil manner which you think applies.

THE APOSTLE PAUL CALLS JESUS "THE GREAT GOD" (τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ) WITH "LOOKING FOR THE BLESSED HOPE AND THE APPEARING OF THE GLORY OF OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR, CHRIST JESUS" (TITUS 2:13).

@APAK @Wrangler @tigger 2 @XFire (the 4 of you are included because of your likes of keithr's post) and keithr are linguistic fools.

keithr, you wickedly neglected the Apostle John calling Jesus God (John 1:1), the Apostle Thomas calling Jesus God (John 20:28), and the Apostle Matthew calling Jesus God (Matthew 1:23); moreover, @APAK @Wrangler @tigger 2 and @XFire wickedly applaud your wickedness, so you all are "evil men and impostors" proceeding "from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived" (2 Timothy 3:13)

The following 8 paragraphs demonstrate taking scripture with scripture in Truth (John 14:6).

Jesus reveals Himself as truly God and truly Man at His discretion

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one in God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

The subject within "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of the God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1) does not negate that the Apostle Peter calls Jesus "the God" (τοῦ Θεοῦ) in 2 Peter 1:1. See that "righteousness" in 2 Peter 1:1 is singular, not plural, but truly singular, so Peter singularly refers to "the God" and "Savior" and "Jesus Christ" as One singular.

keithr, your extant post falls into the abyss because your foundation is deception, and @APAK @Wrangler @tigger 2 and @XFire you all are right there with @keithr.

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you have no gospel at all.
 

keithr

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... in the evil manner which you think applies.

@APAK @Wrangler @tigger 2 @XFire (the 4 of you are included because of your likes of keithr's post) and keithr are linguistic fools.

keithr, you wickedly neglected the Apostle John ... wickedly applaud your wickedness, so you all are "evil men and impostors" ...
Why do you keep being so insulting and accusing to anyone who doesn't agree with your interpretation of the Bible? You're not showing Christian love, you're displaying the spirit of Satan - Revelation 12:10 (WEB):

(10) I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, the power, and the Kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ has come; for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night.​

James 3:6-12 (WEB):
(6) And the tongue is a fire. The world of iniquity among our members is the tongue, which defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature, and is set on fire by Gehenna.
(7) For every kind of animal, bird, creeping thing, and sea creature, is tamed, and has been tamed by mankind;
(8) but nobody can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.
(9) With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who are made in the image of God.
(10) Out of the same mouth comes blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so.
(11) Does a spring send out from the same opening fresh and bitter water?
(12) Can a fig tree, my brothers, yield olives, or a vine figs? Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh water.​

Romans 15:3-7 (WEB):
(3) For even Christ didn’t please himself. But, as it is written, “The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me.
(4) For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that through perseverance and through encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
(5) Now the God of perseverance and of encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus,
(6) that with one accord you may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(7) Therefore accept one another, even as Christ also accepted you, to the glory of God.​

2 Corinthians 1:3 (WEB):
(3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort;
 
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APAK

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Why do you keep being so insulting and accusing to anyone who doesn't agree with your interpretation of the Bible? You're not showing Christian love, you're displaying the spirit of Satan - Revelation 12:10 (WEB):

(10) I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, the power, and the Kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ has come; for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night.​

James 3:6-12 (WEB):
(6) And the tongue is a fire. The world of iniquity among our members is the tongue, which defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature, and is set on fire by Gehenna.
(7) For every kind of animal, bird, creeping thing, and sea creature, is tamed, and has been tamed by mankind;
(8) but nobody can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.
(9) With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who are made in the image of God.
(10) Out of the same mouth comes blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so.
(11) Does a spring send out from the same opening fresh and bitter water?
(12) Can a fig tree, my brothers, yield olives, or a vine figs? Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh water.​

Romans 15:3-7 (WEB):
(3) For even Christ didn’t please himself. But, as it is written, “The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me.
(4) For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that through perseverance and through encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
(5) Now the God of perseverance and of encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus,
(6) that with one accord you may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(7) Therefore accept one another, even as Christ also accepted you, to the glory of God.​

2 Corinthians 1:3 (WEB):
(3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort;
Amen. It's sad that we cannot at least discuss these matters on one's heart with more of an approach of patience and care for one another in the process. Feelings get hurt and it's inevitable. I also have been quick to react and prematurely at times. I love it when I see amazingly and surprisingly within me, the fruits of the Spirit bursting out in full bloom. And yet there are seasons within my life where this fruit is slow in coming.

@Kermos I do not know you and if I seem too forward and only see a chip on your shoulder today, then can I see another part of you that says you are a brother in Christ. There is no one perfect here. We are all learning and living out the plan of our God. There must be someway to at least be happy and with joy and even agree to disagree? I hope so....
 

tigger 2

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#1355 above:

We can find a number of translations and commentaries of Titus 2:13 which render it as referring to two persons:

13 lokynge for that blessed hope and appearynge of the glory of ye greate God and of oure Sauioure Iesu Christ - Coverdale

13 lokynge for þe blessed hope & appearinge of the glory of the greate God, & of oure sauioure Iesu Christ, - The Great Bible

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glorie of that mightie God, and of our Sauiour Iesus Christ, - Geneva

13 abidinge the blessid hope and the comyng of the glorie of the greet God, and of oure sauyour Jhesu Crist; - Wycliffe

13 lokinge for that blessed hope and glorious apperenge of ye myghty god and of oure savioure Iesu Christ - Tyndale

13 in expectation of that desirable happiness, the glorious appearance of the supreme God, and of our saviour Jesus Christ, - Mace

13 awaiting the blessed hope of the appearance of the Glory of the great God and of our Saviour Christ Jesus, - Moffatt

13 expecting the blessed hope; namely, the appearing of the glory of the great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ; - The Living Oracles

13 looking for the blessed hope, and appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ; - Noyes

13 waiting for the blessed hope, the glorious appearing of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus, - Riverside

13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, - Sawyer

(KJV) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

(New American Bible - 1970) as we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus

(New American Bible - 1991) as we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ

(New American Bible - 2010) as we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ

(A New Translation in Plain English - Charles K. Williams) while we wait for the blessed thing we hope for, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ

And while we live this life we hope and wait for the glorious denouement of the Great God and of Jesus Christ our saviour. - Phillips

We are to be looking for the great hope and the coming of our great God and the One Who saves, Christ Jesus. - NLV

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glory of that mighty God, and of our Savior Jesus Christ. - GNV

"looking for that blessed hope and glorious appearing of the mighty God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ," - NMB

According to An Idiom-Book of New Testament Greek, by C. F. D. Moule, Cambridge, England, 1971, p. 109, at Titus 2:13, the sense "of the Great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ ... is possible in [New Testament] Greek even without the repetition [of the definite article before the second noun]."

Noted British NT scholar and clergyman Henry Alford wrote: "I would submit that [a translation which clearly differentiates God from Christ at Titus 2:13] satisfies all the grammatical requirements of the sentence: that it is both structurally and contextually more probable, and more agreeable to the Apostle’s [Paul’s] way of writing: and I have therefore preferred it." - The Greek Testament, p. 421, Vol. 3.
 
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