The soon coming rapture?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

ewq1938

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2015
5,840
1,211
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes people during the tribulation will come to Christ , even those who had fallen away will come back

Revelation 18:4 "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

This is a warning direct from God through this mighty angel. "You come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins."


That is not an example of people converting to Christianity. So far you have not proven anyone becomes a Christian during the Great Tribulation.
 

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,048
785
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
That is not an example of people converting to Christianity. So far you have not proven anyone becomes a Christian during the Great Tribulation.

Heck Christians will stop being Christians during the tribulation ,my point was to show how most will get back, so not understanding how the verses mean nothing to you.
 

ewq1938

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2015
5,840
1,211
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Heck Christians will stop being Christians during the tribulation ,my point was to show how most will get back, so not understanding how the verses mean nothing to you.


So far you have not proven anyone becomes a Christian during the Great Tribulation.
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,505
12,924
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
LOL. God is something else isn't He. It's like the Jews that are blinded and can't see Christ until after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Christians are blind to what is right in front of them. There is no way I can possibly explain this better than what is written in scripture. I'll hash it one more time, though I expect the same results, no matter how crystal clear it is. I think God just laughs.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth,
even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The sun and moon become dark and the stars fall from heaven......AT THE 6TH SEAL. The sun and moon are dark and the stars fall from heaven IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION when Jesus returns.

That means Jesus returns at the 6th seal. I am positive that you are unable to see what is right in front of you. How is this possible? God just laughs.


Jesus returns at the 6th seal...

Rev 6:12 the 6th seal is opened.
[12] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
[13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
[14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
[15] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

At the 6th seal opening....Every occupant upon the face of the Earth hide themselves.

Where is mention of Jesus ?

Tribulation that comes down from Heaven...in an ORDER.
Seals........1 through 7 (seal 6, every person ON Earth Hiding)
Trumps.....1 through 7
Vials.........1 through 7

Every Seal Opened, Every Trump Sounded, 6 Vials Poured out...
Rev 16:17 Last, ie 7th Vial poured out

Where IS Jesus? Isn’t Jesus He who is called The Word of God?

Oh....here we go....REV 19.....


Rev 19
[11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
[12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Behold means LOOK...

What exactly are you LOOKING AT and SEEING and saying God thinks is so funny....when the 6th Seal is opened?

Nothing funny about The Seals being opened, The Trumps being sounded, The Vials being poured out.
All of those things are Gods Wrath, Because of Gods Anger, Because of men who refused to DO the Will of God.
Are you happy, giddy, laugh, when your children misbehave and you punish them?

The moon appearing BLACK, is not the same thing as the moon appearing RED.

The moon has NO LIGHT of its own.

The appearance of a BLACK moon, is because the SUN shines NO LIGHT upon the moon.

The appearance of a RED moon, IS a SIGN.
You say the SIGN is the coming of JESUS, at the 6th seal opening.
Scripture says otherwise.


 
Last edited:

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,505
12,924
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So far you have not proven anyone becomes a Christian during the Great Tribulation.

Becoming a “Christian”, whatever that means...is not a Scriptural taught REQUIREMENT to receive Gods Gift of Salvation.
 

The Light

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2022
2,200
187
63
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
At the 6th seal opening....Every occupant upon the face of the Earth hide themselves.

Where is mention of Jesus ?

Rev 6:12 the 6th seal is opened.
[12] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
[13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
[14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
[15] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Where is the mention of Jesus? You conveniently left that verse out. Keep reading.
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Secondly read the next chapter. Where do you think the great multitude came from? Jesus has returned for the gathering FROM HEAVEN AND EARTH, meaning there is "A" rapture. They return to heaven for the marriage supper and remain there during the wrath of God.

Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Tribulation that comes down from Heaven...in an ORDER.
Seals........1 through 7 (seal 6, every person ON Earth Hiding)
Trumps.....1 through 7
Vials.........1 through 7

Yep, those that are not raptured at the gathering from heaven and earth which occurs at the 6th seal are certainly hiding. The wrath of God is about to begin.

Also it appears that you do no understand that the wrath of God is OVER at the 7th trumpet. The vials are just a different view with different information of things that occur in the same time frame as the trumpets. Wrath is over at the 7th trumpet. Then in the vials you get a different view of wrath and wrath is over at the 7th vial.

Rev 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Every Seal Opened, Every Trump Sounded, 6 Vials Poured out...
Rev 16:17 Last, ie 7th Vial poured out

Where IS Jesus? Isn’t Jesus He who is called The Word of God?

Jesus is right here, in Revelation 14. As I said, the wrath of God is OVER at the 7TH TRUMPET. What you see in Rev 13 and 14 occurs in the seals. You are getting a different view of what happens in the seals with different information. The coming of Jesus in Rev 14 is just a different view of the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. How do we know that? In verse 19 we see that the ungodly are cast into the wrath of God, which is exactly what happens at the 6th seal....wrath is about to begin.
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.


The moon appearing BLACK, is not the same thing as the moon appearing RED.

The moon has NO LIGHT of its own.

The appearance of a BLACK moon, is because the SUN shines NO LIGHT upon the moon.

The appearance of a RED moon, IS a SIGN.
You say the SIGN is the coming of JESUS, at the 6th seal opening.
Scripture says otherwise.

What you are getting is two different views of the same event. Jesus tells you the moon does not her light. Whereas John has a vision and tells you that the moon is as blood. Ever seen an eclipse? The moon turns to blood before it goes dark as the rays of the sun are bending around the earth. I'm sure you have heard of the 4 blood moons. Those were eclipses where the moon does not give light. The moon turns to blood before it goes dark.
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,505
12,924
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Where is the mention of Jesus? You conveniently left that verse out. Keep reading.
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Well aware of the OPENING of the Seals Begins the Wrath of God, expressly the Wrath of the Lamb, for men choosing to Reject the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

God is NOT ON Earth, while He is sending His Tribulation to Destroy the Earth.

Secondly read the next chapter. Where do you think the great multitude came from? Jesus has returned for the gathering FROM HEAVEN AND EARTH, meaning there is "A" rapture. They return to heaven for the marriage supper and remain there during the wrath of God.

Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The Great Multitude?
Do you listen, hear, what a great multitude of men’s testimony IS:
I’m Christian...
I was Water Baptized...
I was Christened as a baby, don’t remember a thing about it...
I was born again but still sin...
Ya, I was saved but must do works to keep my salvation...
I can only be martyred to receive my salvation...
I am Jewish, heard, didn’t believe Jesus is the Christ...
I Believe...what? Guesswork.
Blah, blah, blah...
None of those things, are men having received Salvation According to Gods NEW Covenant.

Yes there IS a multitude that will experience the Wrath of the Lamb, and Call on the Lord and CONFESS their belief IN God IN Jesus is the Christ, become KILLED, their BODY NOT risen until after the 1,000 yr. First Resurrection...and their soul saved, spirit quickened and rise up to Heaven...


Yep, those that are not raptured at the gathering from heaven and earth which occurs at the 6th seal are certainly hiding. The wrath of God is about to begin.

The Wrath of God, Gods Tribulation; BEGINS at the opening of the FIRST SEAL.
The RAPTURE occurs BEFORE the FIRST SEAL IS OPENED.
The RAPTURE APPLIES TO ONLY those IN CHRIST, before the Tribulation Begins

Also it appears that you do no understand that the wrath of God is OVER at the 7th trumpet. The vials are just a different view with different information of things that occur in the same time frame as the trumpets. Wrath is over at the 7th trumpet. Then in the vials you get a different view of wrath and wrath is over at the 7th vial.

Disagree with you.
Gods Tribulation/ Wrath Begins with the First Seal Opening...
It applies to ALL WHO HAVE NOT BECOME CONVERTED.
- During the Seals, During the Trumps...Men are becoming saved...Men are making their allegiance to Satan...Men are killing and being killed...
- During the Vials, a few believing mortal men are reserved, the rest of the mortal living men are in allegiance to Satan, and their suffering increased with Gods Wrath and with Gods VENGEANCE against men who intended and causes tribulations and hardships AGAINST believers IN God, IN Christ Jesus, Because such men DID BELIEVE.

Rev 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Yep, MYSTERY OF GOD finished....
The BIG mystery of God seems to be ..... HOW...God has been Dividing and Separating that which belongs to Him from that which Rejects Him...for Centuries.

Jesus is right here, in Revelation 14. As I said, the wrath of God is OVER at the 7TH TRUMPET. What you see in Rev 13 and 14 occurs in the seals. You are getting a different view of what happens in the seals with different information. The coming of Jesus in Rev 14 is just a different view of the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. How do we know that? In verse 19 we see that the ungodly are cast into the wrath of God, which is exactly what happens at the 6th seal....wrath is about to begin.
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Yep......John looked.....where was John when He Looked?
NOT ON EARTH! Already went over this.

WHEN the Son of man Returns........EVERY eye shall see him...
John’s perspective was from Heaven, not Earth.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Yep....sat on the cloud....separating....uh a cloud is not Earth.
Son of man Returns TO Earth.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.


In the clouds...gathering unto Himself what IS of the spirit....and gather unto the Earth what chose to REMAIN earthly.

What you are getting is two different views of the same event. Jesus tells you the moon does not her light. Whereas John has a vision and tells you that the moon is as blood. Ever seen an eclipse? The moon turns to blood before it goes dark as the rays of the sun are bending around the earth. I'm sure you have heard of the 4 blood moons. Those were eclipses where the moon does not give light. The moon turns to blood before it goes dark.

Familiar with what causes no reflection upon the moon, to make the moon appear to not have light, as well as appearance of blood red moons.

I trust God is angry, getting angrier, and His wrath shall begin with the Heavenly Tribulation...via the opening of first seal and end with the last vial.... and thereafter 1,000 yr reign...and thereafter WAR...and thereafter Judgements, sentences fulfilled....and thereafter all things anew.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
My error. Not dishonest. Almost mistook you for a bother IN Christ.
Apologize. I won’t make that mistake again.
Are you saying you think I'm not in Christ? I am in Christ as all Christians are. Do you believe that having the correct end times doctrine is a requirement for being a Christian?
 
  • Like
Reactions: L.A.M.B.

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,505
12,924
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Are you saying you think I'm not in Christ?

No clue what you are.

I am in Christ as all Christians are.

Not for a minute do I believe “all” Christians are “in” Christ!
Christian is a Title anyone can wear.

Do you believe that having the correct end times doctrine is a requirement for being a Christian?

Nope. Doesn’t matter what people believe, or Title they wear, Gods will shall prevail for the knowing and unknowing.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It's easy to support. All you have to do is read. Who are the elders in Rev 4? Who are the kings and priests in Rev 5? I could go on and on and on.
How does this prove a pre-trib rapture exactly? If you want to have a discussion with me, then you need to be specific and not vague like this. I don't want to spend a lot of time guessing as to what you're trying to say.

How could you possibly think that the coming of Jesus in Matt 24 is the coming of Jesus in 1 thes 4.
Because each passage refers to the second coming of Christ and the gathering of all believers. He's not coming more than once to gather His own to Himself.

In Matt 31 JESUS SENDS HIS ANGELS. In 1 Thes 4 THE LORD HIMSELF COMES. Two completely different comings. The coming of Jesus in Matt 24 is the coming of Jesus in 1 Corinthians 15. This coming happens at the last trump. The coming in of Jesus in 1 Thes 4 occurs at the trump of God or voice of God. How do you not notice these differences?
LOL. Come on. Are you being serious here?

How do you determine that 1 Corinthians 15 refers to the same coming of Jesus in Matthew 24? It doesn't mention Him coming with His angels in 1 Corinthians 15. So, using the same logic you use to conclude that Matthew 24:29-31 is a different event than 1 Thess 4:14-17, you could use the same logic to conclude that Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Corinthians 15:22-23/50-54 are not the same event. Do you think that would be a valid argument for someone to make? I doubt it. So, why use that kind of argument in relation to Matthew 24 and 1 Thess 4?

Not all passages about the second coming contain all of the same details about it. That doesn't mean those passages are referring to different events. They are referring to the same event with different levels of detail.

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The 1 Thess 4 passage is not saying that Jesus alone is descending from heaven there. That's made clear by the reference to the voice of the archangel (Jesus is not the archangel) being heard at that time. Just because it doesn't mention the angels there, doesn't mean the angels aren't with Him there. Just like it doesn't mean that 1 Cor 15:22-23 and 1 Cor 15:51-54 are different events from Matthew 24:29-31 just because they don't specifically mention the angels being with Him.

Sure He did. He tells you He is coming more than once right here.
Luke 17
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
You need to learn to interpret scripture in context rather than interpreting any given verse in isolation.

Luke 17:22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

When you look at verse 26 here you should see that "the days of the Son of Man" refers to the days before the day He returns. Just like the days of Noah refer to the days that led up to "the day Noah entered the ark".

So you think He is coming once?
I know He is coming once in the future. It's not even debatable in my mind. I think the idea that He will descend from heaven twice in the future is completely ludicrous. It's not something that anyone believed until the 1800s.

Actually, He is coming for the dead in Christ. He is coming for His Church before the seals are opened. He is coming for the 144,000 as first fruits. He is coming immediately after the tribulation at the 6th seal for His elect from heaven and earth and He is coming at the end of WRATH. That would be 5 comings that I am aware of.
Now you're up to 5 comings? I can't take you seriously. What is this nonsense based on? Did someone teach you this?

Jesus is coming when you think not. We can tell it is before the seals are opened as the 1st 4 seals are the beginning of sorrows that we are told about in Matthew. In Luke 21 we are told we can ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass AND STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN. So we can escape the events of the seals.
Jesus was talking particularly about escaping the final wrath of God that will come down on the day Christ returns, as described here:

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

There is no need to be taken off of the earth until the final global wrath of God comes down on the day Christ returns. That wrath will come down on the entire earth, as described in 2 Peter 3:10-12. Before that God is perfectly capable of keeping us safe while we're still on the earth.
 
Last edited:

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Not for a minute do I believe “all” Christians are “in” Christ!
Christian is a Title anyone can wear.
Where are you getting that from? A Christian is someone who believes in Christ and belongs to Him. Anyone can claim to be a Christian but that doesn't make them one.
 
  • Like
Reactions: L.A.M.B.

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,505
12,924
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The soon coming rapture?
OP ^


I see men Against God, without hiding their shame
I think God’s Anger is waxing hot.
Likely Rapture of those IN Christ coming soon to a neighbor near you.
 

The Light

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2022
2,200
187
63
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
How does this prove a pre-trib rapture exactly? If you want to have a discussion with me, then you need to be specific and not vague like this. I don't want to spend a lot of time guessing as to what you're trying to say.
It shows you that the Church is in heaven before the seals are open. The Church is not on earth for the tribulation.
Because each passage refers to the second coming of Christ and the gathering of all believers. He's not coming more than once to gather His own to Himself.
Correct. But I don't think you understand that that coming occurs at the 6th seal BEFORE the wrath of God begins. The 1st trumpet is the beginning of wrath and the 7th trumpet is the end of wrath.
LOL. Come on. Are you being serious here?

How do you determine that 1 Corinthians 15 refers to the same coming of Jesus in Matthew 24? It doesn't mention Him coming with His angels in 1 Corinthians 15. So, using the same logic you use to conclude that Matthew 24:29-31 is a different event than 1 Thess 4:14-17, you could use the same logic to conclude that Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Corinthians 15:22-23/50-54 are not the same event. Do you think that would be a valid argument for someone to make? I doubt it. So, why use that kind of argument in relation to Matthew 24 and 1 Thess 4?

Yes, I think that is an excellent argument to make. I don't think you will be able to keep up, but I'll give it a whirl. The fig tree has two harvests. The first harvest will be the Church. Pentecost is the first harvest feast and is associated with the first trump. The Church will likely be raptured on Pentecost. Then in the 70th week of Daniel, the seals, God turns His attention to the Jews, that is where there is 144,000 from the 12 tribes that are first fruits of the second harvest. The LAST DAY is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. The second harvest feast is the Feast of Trumpets and the last trump is blown on the feast of trumpets. After the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, the wrath of God begins.
Rev 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Not all passages about the second coming contain all of the same details about it. That doesn't mean those passages are referring to different events. They are referring to the same event with different levels of detail.
You think that the second coming happens at the end of the vials when it really happens at the 6th seal. Until you understand that, you are completey lost
The 1 Thess 4 passage is not saying that Jesus alone is descending from heaven there. That's made clear by the reference to the voice of the archangel (Jesus is not the archangel) being heard at that time. Just because it doesn't mention the angels there, doesn't mean the angels aren't with Him there. Just like it doesn't mean that 1 Cor 15:22-23 and 1 Cor 15:51-54 are different events from Matthew 24:29-31 just because they don't specifically mention the angels being with Him.
The voice of the archangel is in heaven. The Lord Himself comes for His bride. That is what is meant by the bridegroom coming. There are no angels being sent.
You need to learn to interpret scripture in context rather than interpreting any given verse in isolation.

Luke 17:22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
When you look at verse 26 here you should see that "the days of the Son of Man" refers to the days before the day He returns. Just like the days of Noah refer to the days that led up to "the day Noah entered the ark".
Yes, I have been presented this argument before, and it is valid. However, we can tell He comes more than once as the fig tree has two harvests. We also know that He comes Himself in one coming and sends His angels in another coming. One coming is at the trump of God and one coming is at the last trump. One coming will be like the days of Noah where Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood and LIKEWISE ALSO, one coming is like the days of Lot where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. There are two comings BEFORE the wrath of God begins at the wrath of God begins at the 1st trumpet.

I know He is coming once in the future. It's not even debatable in my mind. I think the idea that He will descend from heaven twice in the future is completely ludicrous. It's not something that anyone believed until the 1800s.

Now you're up to 5 comings? I can't take you seriously. What is this nonsense based on? Did someone teach you this?

All you have to do is read what it says. You have the Church going through the wrath of God and yet we are not appointed to wrath.

If Jesus comes at the end of wrath who are these elder in heaven with their reward crowns as promised.
Rev 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Are you going to look past this and pretend it doesn't happen.

The Church is the kings and priest of Rev 5 that are in heaven before the seals are opened. The seals are the 7th week of Daniel. This has nothing to do with the Church this is about the people of Daniel. The Church is in heave BEFORE the seals are opened.
Dan 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Do you read what it says and believe what it says? Or do you just skip past this and pretend that God is not going to keep His word to His Chosen. They can't even see that Jesus is the Messiah until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in and since the 70th week is about the people of Daniel you know the Church has to be raptured before the seals are opened. You just can't look past these facts and pretend you are not reading them.
Rom 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
 

The Light

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2022
2,200
187
63
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus was talking particularly about escaping the final wrath of God that will come down on the day Christ returns, as described here:

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
No. Jesus was talking about escaping ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass. All theses things are what happens in the 70th week of Daniel. This is the tribulation period. Escaping the two coming false Christs, wars and rumors of wars, famines and pestilence. Escaping and standing before the son of man.
There is no need to be taken off of the earth until the final global wrath of God comes down on the day Christ returns. That wrath will come down on the entire earth, as described in 2 Peter 3:10-12. Before that God is perfectly capable of keeping us safe while we're still on the earth.
Christ returns at the 6th seal. Here is that coming BEFORE the wrath of God.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

And as before, here is a coming of Jesus for the firstfruits of the harvest that will occur at the 6th seal. Jesus comes to earth and then we see the 144,000 in heaven. Are you just going to read past these facts as if they do not happen? Jesus comes way more than you realize. I don't need to make anything up. Just read what it says.

Rev 14

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,272
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Not true. I believe there will be a secret pretribulation rapture, and it will be a secret rapture.

Do you think that Satan has spent so much time explaining away people disappearing because it is not going to happen? All the alien abductions. Aliens are a load of manure that the elite will use to explain the rapture. Have you seen the Avengers? All the people just disintegrating into dust. All for a reason. When the secret pretribulation rapture happens, the lie is already in place to explain it away.

Enterprise energize. Scotty, Scotty energize. POOF.....
Was the baptism of Jesus and gathering His disciples a secret event? We are given a strange account that Mary the mother of Jesus wanted Him to "perform" at a wedding ceremony, where Jesus was reluctant to do so. I can see how many want a separate gathering instead of the actual Second Coming, but Jesus was baptized and gathered His disciples 3.5 years before the Cross, not after He died, was buried, and rose again.

Jesus was on the earth between His baptism and the Cross for 3.5 years. The Second Coming will be no different. Jesus will come, gather 144k disciples and have His second ministry on earth, and it will not be in secret. That is what Jesus told us in Matthew 13. When Jesus comes with the angels the church will be taken away, whether people call that a rapture or refuse to call it anything.

The time Jesus spends on earth will be the time of Jacob's trouble not the church's trouble, no matter how people define the church as Israel, the fulness of the Gentiles, or the NT church. That is the problem. The Second Coming happens before Jesus is on the earth, not years after Jesus and the angels have already come and carried out the time of Jacob's trouble.

Jesus on the earth with His angels in Matthew 13 is not figurative. This is a literal event. Jesus was explaining a parable, not telling a parable. Even in Matthew 25, in verse 31, that is not a parable. Jesus sitting on His throne judging the nations is not figurative. The parables are given between verse 1 and 31. Then verse 31 is the literal explanation. And the goats are part of Jacob's trouble as much as the sheep are. Neither are the church.

It is interesting that no one can even agree on what a tribulation even is. Jeremiah 30. Tribulation at the end is for Jacob, not the church. Tribulation for the church has been ongoing since 30AD. There will be no end time Tribulation for the church greater than the sum of, nor any past intense church tribulation.

The Second Coming brings Christ to earth, which removes the church. Then and only then when Jesus is on earth as Prince, will the time of Jacob's trouble begin. This trouble is the first 6 Trumpets. Between the 6th and 7th Trumpets we will have 7 Thunders which is covered by Matthew 13. This is the harvest of the wheat and tares, also not the church. This final harvest is the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom from all nations, not just Israel. The details of the 7 Thunders are not necessary for the church neither Israel at the Second Coming. Neither group will be on earth for the 7 Thunders. That is why the Second Coming is the 6th Seal as well as a rapture of those alive at the Second Coming. The church is removed. Israel is removed. Then God will deal directly with the Nations, and we don't need that information, because the church and Israel will not be around after the 6th Trumpet.

Before the Nations can be declared belonging to Jesus at the 7th Trumpet, Revelation 11:15, the 7 Thunders have to remove the wheat and the tares. Matthew 13. The Second Coming is the removal of all of Adam's flesh and blood from the earth. One way or the other.
 

The Light

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2022
2,200
187
63
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Was the baptism of Jesus and gathering His disciples a secret event? We are given a strange account that Mary the mother of Jesus wanted Him to "perform" at a wedding ceremony, where Jesus was reluctant to do so. I can see how many want a separate gathering instead of the actual Second Coming, but Jesus was baptized and gathered His disciples 3.5 years before the Cross, not after He died, was buried, and rose again.

Jesus was on the earth between His baptism and the Cross for 3.5 years. The Second Coming will be no different. Jesus will come, gather 144k disciples and have His second ministry on earth, and it will not be in secret. That is what Jesus told us in Matthew 13. When Jesus comes with the angels the church will be taken away, whether people call that a rapture or refuse to call it anything.

The time Jesus spends on earth will be the time of Jacob's trouble not the church's trouble, no matter how people define the church as Israel, the fulness of the Gentiles, or the NT church. That is the problem. The Second Coming happens before Jesus is on the earth, not years after Jesus and the angels have already come and carried out the time of Jacob's trouble.

Jesus on the earth with His angels in Matthew 13 is not figurative. This is a literal event. Jesus was explaining a parable, not telling a parable. Even in Matthew 25, in verse 31, that is not a parable. Jesus sitting on His throne judging the nations is not figurative. The parables are given between verse 1 and 31. Then verse 31 is the literal explanation. And the goats are part of Jacob's trouble as much as the sheep are. Neither are the church.

It is interesting that no one can even agree on what a tribulation even is. Jeremiah 30. Tribulation at the end is for Jacob, not the church. Tribulation for the church has been ongoing since 30AD. There will be no end time Tribulation for the church greater than the sum of, nor any past intense church tribulation.

The Second Coming brings Christ to earth, which removes the church. Then and only then when Jesus is on earth as Prince, will the time of Jacob's trouble begin. This trouble is the first 6 Trumpets. Between the 6th and 7th Trumpets we will have 7 Thunders which is covered by Matthew 13. This is the harvest of the wheat and tares, also not the church. This final harvest is the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom from all nations, not just Israel. The details of the 7 Thunders are not necessary for the church neither Israel at the Second Coming. Neither group will be on earth for the 7 Thunders. That is why the Second Coming is the 6th Seal as well as a rapture of those alive at the Second Coming. The church is removed. Israel is removed. Then God will deal directly with the Nations, and we don't need that information, because the church and Israel will not be around after the 6th Trumpet.

Before the Nations can be declared belonging to Jesus at the 7th Trumpet, Revelation 11:15, the 7 Thunders have to remove the wheat and the tares. Matthew 13. The Second Coming is the removal of all of Adam's flesh and blood from the earth. One way or the other.
The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened. That's why there are 24 elders around the throne with their rewards.

Rev 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

The seals are the 70th week of Daniel. The tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. The second coming occurs at the 6th seal and Jesus REMAINS IN THE CLOUDS. HE SENDS HIS ANGELS TO GATHER THE ELECT

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Matt 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This lie is already in place to explain the disappearance of millions of people. It will be time for their world government.
 

The Light

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2022
2,200
187
63
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well aware of the OPENING of the Seals Begins the Wrath of God, expressly the Wrath of the Lamb, for men choosing to Reject the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

God is NOT ON Earth, while He is sending His Tribulation to Destroy the Earth.

The tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. The wrath of begins after the 7th seal is opened.
The Great Multitude?
Do you listen, hear, what a great multitude of men’s testimony IS:
I’m Christian...
I was Water Baptized...
I was Christened as a baby, don’t remember a thing about it...
I was born again but still sin...
Ya, I was saved but must do works to keep my salvation...
I can only be martyred to receive my salvation...
I am Jewish, heard, didn’t believe Jesus is the Christ...
I Believe...what? Guesswork.
Blah, blah, blah...
None of those things, are men having received Salvation According to Gods NEW Covenant.

What are you talking about? The only thing I'm sure of here is that you don't know.




The Wrath of God, Gods Tribulation; BEGINS at the opening of the FIRST SEAL.
The RAPTURE occurs BEFORE the FIRST SEAL IS OPENED.
The RAPTURE APPLIES TO ONLY those IN CHRIST, before the Tribulation Begins
The tribulation is OVER BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD BEGINS. The rapture of the Church does happen before the seals are opened.


Disagree with you.
Gods Tribulation/ Wrath Begins with the First Seal Opening...
It applies to ALL WHO HAVE NOT BECOME CONVERTED.
- During the Seals, During the Trumps...Men are becoming saved...Men are making their allegiance to Satan...Men are killing and being killed...
- During the Vials, a few believing mortal men are reserved, the rest of the mortal living men are in allegiance to Satan, and their suffering increased with Gods Wrath and with Gods VENGEANCE against men who intended and causes tribulations and hardships AGAINST believers IN God, IN Christ Jesus, Because such men DID BELIEVE.


IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. That happens at the 6th seal BEFORE the wrath of God....Just like it says in Rev 6 and Matt 24
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,505
12,924
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. The wrath of begins after the 7th seal is opened.
What are you talking about? The only thing I'm sure of here is that you don't know.
The tribulation is OVER BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD BEGINS. The rapture of the Church does happen before the seals are opened.
IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. That happens at the 6th seal BEFORE the wrath of God....Just like it says in Rev 6 and Matt 24

The entire 7 Yr Tribulation is ALL stemmed from Gods Anger and effected by Gods Wrath.

The Lamb is angry for men not committing to Him...
The Devil is angry for men not committing to him...
God is angry for men not committing to Him...

Not news.....there are multiple things, applicable to multiple things that occur during Gods intended 7 yr Tribulation.
* By the Lamb, * By the Devil, * By God...
Each establishing WHO is Committed to WHOM. And Each causing DEATH and DESTRUCTION.

Gods intended 7 yr Tribulation...is in increments of 3 sets of 7.
In order; 7 SEALS, 7 TRUMPS, 7 VIALS.
Not secret...Each increases in intensity of Suffering upon the inhabitants upon the face of the earth.

Not secret...The Vials are the most intense....and it is upon ONLY those mortals who remain on Earth with their sound allegiance to Satan...
They suffer plagues, wish to die, but can not.
They suffer ALSO Gods VENGEANCE, for having not only NOT believed or committed to the Lord God....but BECAUSE they persecuted men who DID Believe and Commit to the Lord God.

I know exactly what I am talking about, whether or not you do.