Change On The Last Trump
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Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Whatever you think you got figured out, be faithful of His return. You might have to make some adjustments along the way. Peace to you, maybe Ill see you on other side.
Brethren in Christ, don't pay any attention to the lackeys that are the ones who actually push propaganda against God's written Word. It is very... easy to spot those too...
The following Zechariah 14 Chapter covers the event of Christ's future return with His saints to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, and the beginning of His future reign over all... nations on earth.
In the below passages, in that future time, it will be required for ALL nations to come up to Jerusalem once a year, and worship The KING Jesus Christ, and keep the feast of tabernacles. Notice what it says about the leftovers of the nations that came upon Jerusalem, which is pointing to the armies that try to destroy Israel on the very last day of this world, per Ezekiel 38 & 39...
Zech 14:16-18
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV
That proves... that the WICKED and deceived ARE NOT ALL DESTROYED on that day of Christ's future coming!
(The KJV word "heathen" there is Hebrew gowy, put for non-Israelite Gentile nations.)
The following Zechariah 14 Chapter covers the event of Christ's future return with His saints to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, and the beginning of His future reign over all... nations on earth.
In the below passages, in that future time, it will be required for ALL nations to come up to Jerusalem once a year, and worship The KING Jesus Christ, and keep the feast of tabernacles. Notice what it says about the leftovers of the nations that came upon Jerusalem, which is pointing to the armies that try to destroy Israel on the very last day of this world, per Ezekiel 38 & 39...
Zech 14:16-18
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV
That proves... that the WICKED and deceived ARE NOT ALL DESTROYED on that day of Christ's future coming!
(The KJV word "heathen" there is Hebrew gowy, put for non-Israelite Gentile nations.)
No adjustments for me, I listen to The LORD in His Word, and He gives understanding for keeping His Word, and not man's. The MID-trib doctrine you heed is NOT God's Word, so you figure out the rest.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Listen you stated YOURSELF that the last trump was the 7th Trumpet. That is what I agreed with from the start. Logic would dictate that since the are events prior to thw 7th Trumpet (7 seals and 6 trumoets) AND events after the 7th Trumpet (7 Bowls if wrath), then a child can figure that the 7th Trumpet is in the middle of the Great Tribulation. That is Mid-Trib. A child can figure that with colored blocks on the table.
That part above in green is where you are misled.
How can the 7th Trumpet be when The Father and The Son have taken over all kingdoms on earth, yet the Revelation 16 battle of Armageddon hadn't happened yet, nor any of the previous Vials of God's wrath?
The Vials happen WITH... the timing of the Seals and Trumpets, not separately. I have explained this many times.
Furthermore, the "middle of the Great Tribulation" you have completely wrong too! The "great tribulation" happens PRIOR TO THE 7TH TRUMPET.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Revelation is not all in chronological order. We are shown event after event, chapter after chapter, only because we cannot see all these events that coincide, and happening simultaneously and accumlating over time. The events brought on by the four horseman are happening together. It's not like a billion people die from wars and once that happens, then another billion die from famine pestilence. Death comes quickly, yet that's the last horse.
No, they are released rapidly if not together, we just see them one at a time for perspective. Like different vantage points shown of the same time period.
Another aspect of Jesus being given spiritual power and authority over all nations doesn't mean it is immediately manifest in the physical realm. It is like God giving the Promise land to the Israelites. He ordained it lkng before it happened. They still had to go through many battles for it to become manifest.
All the nations of the world given to Him doesn't mean His foes in these nations will cooperate and surrender.
The Book of Life was written with everyone's name that would be in it before the foundation of the world - yet it still had to be manifest - go figure that one out.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
How can they do that if they are completely unconscious as you claim?
They don't receive immortal BODIES until then, but they are already immortal as their eternal destiny is already sealed.
How can they ask God about when their blood will be avenged if they know nothing? Is Revelation 6:9-11 in your Bible? How about Luke 16:19-31? Is that in your Bible? How about the account of Christ's transfiguration? Is that in your Bible? How were the long dead Moses and Elijah able to talk to Jesus if they knew nothing?
Yes, but what you miss is that the GWT judgment occurs right after Christ returns, as portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46.
He sure has fooled you on this particular subject.
That is your interpretation of that verse, but you're not recognizing that what it means is that after death all you have to look forward to is judgment because there is nothing you can do after death to change your fate on judgment day. That does not mean you are completely unconscious in the mean time. You just assume that while ignoring the scriptures which show physically dead people as still being alive and aware spiritually.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
They can't. So, he's clearly being dishonest with that belief since keeping his precious doctrine afloat is more important than humbling himself and accepting the truth, which is that only believers will be changed at the last trumpet to have the incorruptible, immortal bodies that Paul described in 1 Corinthians 15. It's very clear that Paul never said anything about the fate of unbelievers in 1 Corinthians 15 and his focus was only on believers there.
Agree. It's nonsense of the highest order. But, you can't tell them that. They are very convinced that their utter nonsense is somehow true.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
How can the 7 bowls all follow the 7th trumpet when Christ will have returned at the 7th and last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54) and the time for the dead to be resurrected and judged will have arrived at that point (Revelation 11:18)? That makes no sense. You're not recognizing that there are recapitulations or parallels within the book of Revelation rather than it all being a chronological account of events.
GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
You may not agree because it is a very rare, fringe, topic, but I believe that it is the unbelieving, wicked, sinners that know nothing in the grave. I believe they are not resurrected and that their physical death is the end for them.
It answers a lot of questions and solves a lot of problems with certain doctrines. It lines up with the "saints" that were raised at Jesus' death. They were specifically identified as 'saints' not just people in general. It also proves that there is only one resurrection. In John 5:28 we see one resurrection ... with two outcomes for those resurrected.
What does this prove? It proves that Christians can and do go to hell. That is a major threat to the mainstream party line and they do not want anybody to know that because it completely contradicts most of what they teach in churchianity today. It blows Pre-Mil right outta the water.
So, as to the topic of your discussion, it is saints that are conscious in the spirit after their physical deaths, speaking to Jesus about getting justice for their murders; and it is the unbelieving, wicked sinners that know nothing in the grave and have no future beyond their physical death.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
What do you make of the following passages then?
Daniel 12:2 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
These verses describe the resurrection of unbelievers, so I'm not sure how you are concluding that unbelievers are not going to be resurrected.
As for them not knowing anything when they're dead, what do you make of a passage like Luke 16:19-31?
You lost me here. To me, a Christian is someone who belongs to Christ, so, based on that definition, a Christian cannot go to hell. How are you defining the term "Christian"?
It seems to me that Luke 16:19-31 says otherwise.
If Revelation 20:10 is any indication then the lake of fire is a place where beings can experience eternal torment, so I can't agree with you here.
Keraz
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God allows them to cry out for His purposes.
I agree.
As the names of all the righteous believers are Written in the Book of Life, their destiny of immortality is assured. But the idea they are now alive in heaven, is wrong and illogical.
How can they be alive in heaven, the place of immortal spiritual beings, before the GWT Judgment?
Revelation 20 tells us 6 times that there will be a thousand year period between the Return of Jesus until the GWT. Seems you missed that.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
That is when the resurrection of the dead and the living occurs. Rewards are given, the judgment against the world continues
GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
Some of your questions are drifting back and forth between two concepts, but I will try and address them the best I can; for any further interest, peruse the thread Only Believers are Resurrected?
Ok, so that begs some questions, doesn't it?
1. If some will not awaken, why is that? Because not all are raised.
2. Who are they that don't awaken? They are unbelievers.
3. If some of those who do awaken are ashamed and have everlasting contempt, why and how would that be? It can only be that some of those are accepted and some are not.
4. Who can those be? It can only be Christians who are separated by Jesus there; the sheep from the goats - the worthy/righteous from the unworthy/unrighteous.
The answer is very simple. Those who do not awaken at all are those who never believed. Belief gets you a ticket to resurrection. But it's what you do with your life after you have received the gift of belief Ephesians 2:8 that gets you a ticket to heaven ... or not.
Therefore, some Christians (believers; followers of Jesus Christ as the original definition is/was) will awaken to shame and everlasting contempt because they did not truly follow Jesus in their heart and obey the Commandments. How do we know this? Matthew 7:21-23 & John 14:21-23
How do we receive the Holy Spirit? We must obey the Commandments of God and then Jesus and the Father will make their home in our hearts. The Bible uses the word 'know' as a reference to physical sex, when one enters into someone. It uses it in the two stories of men wanting to know other men as well as men with women; but it has a spiritual meaning as well. It refers to when the Holy Spirit enters our hearts.
And what does Jesus say when He turns the believers away in Matthew 7:23? He says "depart from Me, I never knew you." If the Holy Spirit never enters into you due to reluctance in your heart to fully commit to God, you will not be welcomed into heaven.
Yes, those are Christians that are turned away in Matthew 7:21-23.
First of all, we see in verses just prior to 28 that not all can hear Jesus' voice, but only His sheep.
"My sheep hear My voice and I know them and they follow Me."
John 10:27
And how do Jesus' sheep follow Him?
1 John 2:6
They walk as He walked.
And how did Jesus walk?
John 15:10
He obeyed all the Commandments of the Father.
So there we see that not all even CAN be raised. It is only those with resurrection life within them. And how do we get that? We must be given it from the Son. And does the Son give that to every single human being that is born? Absolutely not.
Nobody can come to Christ UNLESS the Father sends them to Him.
John 6:44
The Son gives resurrection life (quickening) only to those He chooses; absolutely not to everybody.
John 5:21
And here we see another example of all not really meaning all like we think it does.
Matthew 25:32
All nations here does not mean every single nation upon the face of the earth. It is better translated as all races, all ethnicities. How do we know? Because we are told that sinners are dealt with in the Judgment; the Judgment of the Day of the Lord - the Wrath of God and the Lamb. If they are dealt with at that time, what sense does it make that they be resurrected?
They will be like chaff in the wind and will be destroyed in the Judgment.
Psalms 1:4-5
Judgment Day is their judgment. They never stand before God to be judged for all their thoughts, words and deeds. God will not waste His time with them; but He will take the time to do that with those who He called and gave gifts of faith and spiritual blessings, etc. He will most certainly judge all those who call themselves by His Name - all Christians.
Secondly, how does that verse prove that these can't be Christians?
2 Peter 2:21
First of all, the word multitudes there has been changed; it is a modern translation you got that from. The KJV simply says many ... which, by definition, means not all. Therefore, if you look at the true meaning of that verse then, we have 'A portion of those who are dead will awake: a portion of that portion will wake to everlasting life, the rest to shame and everlasting contempt.'
Ok, so that begs some questions, doesn't it?
1. If some will not awaken, why is that? Because not all are raised.
2. Who are they that don't awaken? They are unbelievers.
3. If some of those who do awaken are ashamed and have everlasting contempt, why and how would that be? It can only be that some of those are accepted and some are not.
4. Who can those be? It can only be Christians who are separated by Jesus there; the sheep from the goats - the worthy/righteous from the unworthy/unrighteous.
The answer is very simple. Those who do not awaken at all are those who never believed. Belief gets you a ticket to resurrection. But it's what you do with your life after you have received the gift of belief Ephesians 2:8 that gets you a ticket to heaven ... or not.
Therefore, some Christians (believers; followers of Jesus Christ as the original definition is/was) will awaken to shame and everlasting contempt because they did not truly follow Jesus in their heart and obey the Commandments. How do we know this? Matthew 7:21-23 & John 14:21-23
How do we receive the Holy Spirit? We must obey the Commandments of God and then Jesus and the Father will make their home in our hearts. The Bible uses the word 'know' as a reference to physical sex, when one enters into someone. It uses it in the two stories of men wanting to know other men as well as men with women; but it has a spiritual meaning as well. It refers to when the Holy Spirit enters our hearts.
And what does Jesus say when He turns the believers away in Matthew 7:23? He says "depart from Me, I never knew you." If the Holy Spirit never enters into you due to reluctance in your heart to fully commit to God, you will not be welcomed into heaven.
Yes, those are Christians that are turned away in Matthew 7:21-23.
Here we have one of multiple examples of the word all not meaning all. Many will claim a word in the Bible not meaning what it says to bolster their argument, but I can prove it.
First of all, we see in verses just prior to 28 that not all can hear Jesus' voice, but only His sheep.
"My sheep hear My voice and I know them and they follow Me."
John 10:27
And how do Jesus' sheep follow Him?
1 John 2:6
They walk as He walked.
And how did Jesus walk?
John 15:10
He obeyed all the Commandments of the Father.
So there we see that not all even CAN be raised. It is only those with resurrection life within them. And how do we get that? We must be given it from the Son. And does the Son give that to every single human being that is born? Absolutely not.
Nobody can come to Christ UNLESS the Father sends them to Him.
John 6:44
The Son gives resurrection life (quickening) only to those He chooses; absolutely not to everybody.
John 5:21
And here we see another example of all not really meaning all like we think it does.
Matthew 25:32
All nations here does not mean every single nation upon the face of the earth. It is better translated as all races, all ethnicities. How do we know? Because we are told that sinners are dealt with in the Judgment; the Judgment of the Day of the Lord - the Wrath of God and the Lamb. If they are dealt with at that time, what sense does it make that they be resurrected?
They will be like chaff in the wind and will be destroyed in the Judgment.
Psalms 1:4-5
Judgment Day is their judgment. They never stand before God to be judged for all their thoughts, words and deeds. God will not waste His time with them; but He will take the time to do that with those who He called and gave gifts of faith and spiritual blessings, etc. He will most certainly judge all those who call themselves by His Name - all Christians.
Yes, the just and unjust Christians.
No, actually they don't.
Yes, that verse does present a person in hell consciously interacting.
First of all, Revelation is a book of symbols, visions and non-literal, non-chronological information. And, for the record, I have seen you use that as a rebuttal here yourself. So, you might want to explain yourself there if you're acting like you support one position then switching camps when it suits you.
Secondly, how does that verse prove that these can't be Christians?
2 Peter 2:21
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Yeah, I know that, which is why the events of Christ's coming is shown on the 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial. That links all those together as being the 'same'... time.
So really, your long-winded attempt to explain why you believe in a separation of the 7 Vials as happening by itself only after all the Seals and Trumpets have happened, doesn't stay with the actual Scriptures.
Desire Of All Nations
Well-Known Member
God told Adam in Gen. 3:19 that he came from the ground and that he would return to being dirt when he died. Turn to Gen. 2:7 and you can clearly see the Bible say "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground"! It does not say God took an immortal soul and made man!
The fact that Paul taught in 1 Cor. 15 that a person has to be given immortality means we do not inherently possess it. The fact that this chapter also shows Paul saying that all in Adam will die and be made alive through a resurrection shows that you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Human beings do not possess immortality, which is why the Bible teaches that it has to be given to us. We are dust, and apart from God, that's all we'll ever amount to being.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Well, you arw righr about one thing, I am out of breath with this conversation. See ya.
That's where you default to the old Jew's doctrine of soul sleep, because they base most of their understanding on that Genesis 2:7 verse about the 'soul'. They think the 'soul' is part of... our flesh material body. It is not.
Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
KJV
Was that not also shown in The Old Testament Scripture? Yeah, right here...
1 Kings 17:21-22
21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
KJV
Yet Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 taught the "spiritual body" is NOT about being given immortality. One's SOUL must put on immortality in Christ to be given immortality and not be subject to the "second death". The ones that will be in that condition with their souls having put on immortality through Christ, are at His future return, and only are those of the "first resurrection" of Revelation 20.
Not all those who believe on Jesus Christ will be of that "first resurrection", otherwise you would be refusing to believe what Jesus said about the five foolish virgins, and the unprofitable servant (Matthew 25).
Apostle Paul taught that to have eternal Life in Christ, one must go through TWO CHANGES, not one (1 Corinthians 15:53-54). Our flesh 'corruptible' body must be put off to a body of 'incorruption' ("spiritual body"), AND... "this mortal" (the soul) must put on 'immortality'. The wicked dead raised on that SAME DAY per John 5:28-29 will still have 'mortal' souls throughout Christ's "thousand years" reign, still 'liable to die' in the later "lake of fire". They will stand in judgement throughout that period. Even in Revelation 3:9, Lord Jesus reveals He will make the false Jews who say they are Jews but are not, but are the "synagogue of Satan", to come worship at the feet of His elect in that future time. So the wicked are still going to be in Christ's future Millennial reign.
Events For The Wicked Changed & Wicked Dead After Christ's Future Return:
1. on the day of Christ's future return, on the "day of the Lord", per John 5:28-29 and many other Bible Scriptures, the wicked dead are raised to 'their' resurrection type, what Jesus called the "resurrection of damnation". It is to the same "spiritual body" type that Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15, which is THE resurrection type body for all.
2. the wicked still alive on earth when Jesus comes, are CHANGED at the twinkling of an eye on that day also, to the "spiritual body". All souls will be in the "spiritual body" type once God's consuming fire burns man's works off the surface of this earth on that day (i.e., the "day of the Lord" - see 2 Peter 3:10).
3. all the wicked, will be in the "resurrection of damnation" category, because it means their 'soul' condition will still be in 'liable to die' state, (the Greek word thnetos for "this mortal"). That is why those will still be subject to the "second death", which is the casting into the later "lake of fire" at the END of the "thousand years" of Rev.20.
Thus having the "spiritual body" DOES NOT MEAN AUTOMATIC SALVATION IN CHRIST JESUS. ONLY WHEN THE 'SOUL' PUTS ON IMMORTALITY THROUGH CHRIST DOES.
4. At the end of the "thousand years" of Revelation 20, the devil is loosed one final time to tempt the unsaved to go up against the "camp of the saints". Those who follow Satan will be burned up by God's fire coming down from Heaven, as written.
5. Then the Books are opened and the Great White Throne Judgment begins. Those whose names are NOT found in the Book of Life are then cast into the "lake of fire" along with the devil, hell, and death.
6. Since a "first resurrection" mentions the cardinal number of "first", that automatically implies at least one resurrection later LIKE IT. This is where many make the error of thinking a 2nd resurrection is about the wicked dead being raised after the thousand years. The idea of "the dead" during that thousand years is applied to the UNSAVED NATIONS that go through Christ's reign with His elect. That is who Christ and His elect rule over in that time with the "rod of iron". Not wicked that are still in the ground, but the wicked of the "resurrection of damnation" which were raised on the day of Christ's future return per John 5:28-29. Those wicked are still 'spiritually dead', their souls still in a mortal, liable to perish condition at the "second death".
7. The implied 2nd resurrection is about ANOTHER resurrection like unto eternal Life in Christ Jesus. Some of the unsaved peoples during Christ's reign will convert to Jesus, believing on Him and The Father, and be of the implied 2nd resurrection. Thus the idea that the 2nd implied resurrection is about the wicked merely being raised after the 1,000 years only to be cast into the lake of fire, shows ignorance of what Christ's Millennial reign is about. It also shows Biblical ignorance of Christ's teaching about the 'spiritually dead', like His analogy of the blind Pharisees who symbolically appeared like whited tombs on the outside, but were full of dead men's bones on the inside. That is about being 'spiritually dead' on the inside by having rejected Jesus Christ and thus eternal life.
You are hanging on a faulty premise from the very start, because Jesus said this happens on the day of His return...
John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV
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