Yes, I think there’s something wrong with being a trinitarian. Jesus himself wasn’t a trinitarian. I think his disciples should have the same theology of God which he has.
The video is nearly two hours long. I’ve seen it before. Thanks.
The Nature of Jesus Christ
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Yes, I think there’s something wrong with being a trinitarian. Jesus himself wasn’t a trinitarian. I think his disciples should have the same theology of God which he has.
The video is nearly two hours long. I’ve seen it before. Thanks.
I’m not deflecting or resorting to circular reasoning. I documented what I said using only trinitarian sources.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Incorrect, yachid is numerical one, not so with echad.
Listen to Michael Brown as expounds on this word.
J.
Johann
Well-Known Member
The scriptures are not difficult to grasp as to Who Jesus is. He was Word of God made flesh, sent to do His will. He came in the likeness of sinful flesh. He had to do this in order to condemn sin in the flesh. He came in a created flesh body, and yet He knew no sin.
Romans 8:3
[3]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
2 Corinthians 5:21
[21]For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
In whom? In Christ.
Below, we further see where it was told to Joseph the nature of the son who would be brought forth.
Matthew 1:20-23
[20]But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
[21]And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
[22]Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
[23]Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
JESUS.... Savior.
Emmanuel... God with us. We can plainly understand by this that Jesus was/is God.
Conceived by the Holy Spirit (who is the Spirit of God). And no, this was not a sexual encounter. God is Creator. He can create a body in the womb of a virgin! And He did exactly that.
Don't put words in my mouth which I never said @Matthew
Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
מי האמין לשׁמעתנו וזרוע יהוה על־מי נגלתה׃
ויעל כיונק לפניו וכשׁרשׁ מארץ ציה לא־תאר לו ולא הדר ונראהו ולא־מראה ונחמדהו׃
נבזה וחדל אישׁים אישׁ מכאבות וידוע חלי וכמסתר פנים ממנו נבזה ולא חשׁבנהו׃
אכן חלינו הוא נשׂא ומכאבינו סבלם ואנחנו חשׁבנהו נגוע מכה אלהים ומענה׃
והוא מחלל מפשׁענו מדכא מעונתינו מוסר שׁלומנו עליו ובחברתו נרפא־לנו׃
כלנו כצאן תעינו אישׁ לדרכו פנינו ויהוה הפגיע בו את עון כלנו׃
נגשׂ והוא נענה ולא יפתח־פיו כשׂה לטבח יובל וכרחל לפני גזזיה נאלמה ולא יפתח פיו׃
מעצר וממשׁפט לקח ואת־דורו מי ישׂוחח כי נגזר מארץ חיים מפשׁע עמי נגע למו׃
ויתן את־רשׁעים קברו ואת־עשׁיר במתיו על לא־חמס עשׂה ולא מרמה בפיו׃
ויהוה חפץ דכאו החלי אם־תשׂים אשׁם נפשׁו יראה זרע יאריך ימים וחפץ יהוה בידו יצלח׃
מעמל נפשׁו יראה ישׂבע בדעתו יצדיק צדיק עבדי לרבים ועונתם הוא יסבל׃
לכן אחלק־לו ברבים ואת־עצומים יחלק שׁלל תחת אשׁר הערה למות נפשׁו ואת־פשׁעים נמנה והוא חטא־רבים נשׂא ולפשׁעים יפגיע׃
profound
J.
The one true God is the God and Father of Jesus. There is no other besides him.
I haven’t put any words in your mouth.
But on that subject, God put his words in the mouth of Jesus.
Johann
Well-Known Member
˒ĕlōhı̂m: Plural Persons, or Majesty?
The very first verse in the Holy Bible reads, “In the beginning ˒ĕlōhı̂m Created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1)
“˒ĕlōhı̂m” is not a Name of God, but more a description or identity of the Supreme Divine Being in the Old Testament. “˒ĕlōhı̂m”, is masculine in gender, and plural in number. It has most probably from the root “˒ēl”, or “˒ĕlōah”, both are also masculine, but singular.
How are we to understand the plural form “˒ĕlōhı̂m”? The Jews understand it to mean:
“The most common of the originally appellative names of God is Elohim (אלהים), plural in form though commonly construed with a singular verb or adjective. This is, most probably, to be explained as the plural of majesty or excellence, expressing high dignity or greatness” (Jewish Encyclopedia)
The Jews, it must be remembered, do not accept that the God of the Old Testament, is a “Plurality of Persons”. To them, God is just the One Person, Who is the Father.
Those who also reject that the God of the Bible is more than One Person, and anti-Trinitarian, are known as Unitarian, who, like the Jews, believe that God is just the One Person, Who is the Father.
The plural “˒ĕlōhı̂m”, as we are told here, by the Jews and Unitarians, is used to show the “Majesty”, and “Greatness”, and “Excellence”, of the God of the Old Testament. Some Hebrew grammarians call the plural “˒ĕlōhı̂m”, the “plural of Majesty”. There is no evidence in the entire Old Testament, to support this definition. It has been thought up by those, like the Jews and Unitarians, and others who reject that the God of the Bible is more than One Person. The evidence from the Old Testament, will show that “plural of Majesty”, is no more than human conjecture.
In the first place, “˒ĕlōhı̂m”, is not a unique word, that is used only for The One True God of the Old Testament. It is not the same as the Name of God, “Yehôvâh”, which is only used for The One True God of the Old Testament, and is always in the singular. Why was not the singular, “˒ēl”, or “˒ĕlōah”, not used in every instance in the Old Testament, for The One True God,as opposed to the false “˒ĕlōhı̂m”, idols, and human judges? Are we to assume, that it is only when “˒ĕlōhı̂m”, is used for “God”, that it means “plural of majesty”; but, the singular “˒ēl”, and “˒ĕlōah”, when used for “God”, does not mean, “Majesty”, or “Greatness”, or “Excellence”? We shall see, that there are clear places in the Old Testament, where the the singular “˒ēl”, and “˒ĕlōah” are used, and the meaning does mean, “Majesty”, or “Greatness”, or “Excellence”.
Secondly, there are many instances in the Old Testament, where “˒ĕlōhı̂m”, is used for false “gods”. In Exodus chapter 20, when The Ten Commandments were Written by God:
“And God (˒ĕlōhı̂m) spoke all these words, saying, “I am the LORD (Yehôvâh) your God (˒ĕlōhı̂m)...“You shall have no other gods (˒ĕlōhı̂m) beside Me” (verses 1-3)
And verse 23, “You shall not make gods (˒ĕlōhı̂m) of silver to be with me, nor shall you make for yourselves gods (˒ĕlōhı̂m) of gold”
Does “˒ĕlōhı̂m” in all of these uses mean, “plural of Majesty”?
Another good example, is Psalm 82, which shows that the plural “˒ĕlōhı̂m”, cannot be used as “plural of majesty”.
Verse 1 reads: “ God (˒ĕlōhı̂m) has taken His place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods (˒ĕlōhı̂m) He holds judgment”
In verse 6 it says, “I said, “You are gods (˒ĕlōhı̂m), sons of the Most High, all of you”
verse 8, “Arise, O God (˒ĕlōhı̂m), judge the earth; for you shall inherit all the nations!”
Here we have “˒ĕlōhı̂m” used twice for The One True God of the Bible; and once for false “gods”, and once for “judges”. Each time it is the same plural “˒ĕlōhı̂m”. Are we to understand that the same meaning, “plural of majesty”, is applied to the false gods, and human judges?
In other places we also have “˒ĕlōhı̂m”, used for humans who are “judges”
Exodus 21:6, “then his master must bring him to the judges (˒ĕlōhı̂m)” (KJV, NKJV, NET)
Exodus 22:8, 9, “then the owner of the house will be brought before the judges (˒ĕlōhı̂m)...come before the judges (˒ĕlōhı̂m), and the one whom the judges (˒ĕlōhı̂m) declare guilty ” (KJV, NKJV, NET)
“˒ĕlōhı̂m”, is also used for false idols, as in Genesis 31:30, 32 “And now you have gone away because you longed greatly for your father's house, but why did you steal my gods (˒ĕlōhı̂m)?...Anyone with whom you find your gods (˒ĕlōhı̂m) shall not live”. Genesis 35:2,4 “So Jacob said to his household and to all who were with him, “Put away the foreign gods (˒ĕlōhı̂m) that are among you and purify yourselves and change your garments...So they gave to Jacob all the foreign gods (˒ĕlōhı̂m) that they had”. Exodus 32:31, “So Moses returned to the LORD and said, “Alas, this people has sinned a great sin. They have made for themselves gods (˒ĕlōhı̂m) of gold”
In Exodus 7:1, God tells Moses, “And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god (˒ĕlōhı̂m) to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet”
“˒ĕlōhı̂m” is used about 2600 times in the Old Testament for The One True God. However, as we can see, it is also used for false gods, false idols, human judges, etc. If, as those who argue that we are to understand the plural form of “˒ĕlōhı̂m”, to describe God’s “Majesty”, and “Greatness”, and “Excellence”; then are we to take these same meanings, for the false gods, false idols, human judges, etc? How exactly, can these be “majestic” or “great” or “excellent”? It is absurd!
I shall give examples from the Old Testament, where both the singular forms, “˒ēl”, and “˒ĕlōah”, and used for Almighty God, to describe His “Majesty”, and “Greatness”, and “Excellence”. So, why could these words have been used in every instance in the Old Testament, for The One True God? This would have made it very clear, that GOD in the Old Testament, is just One Person, Who is the Father.
For the singular, “˒ēl”, there are examples that show it is used to decrible God’s “Majesty”, and “Greatness”, and “Excellence”:
Genesis 14:18-22, “And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the Most High (‛elyôn) God (˒ēl). And he blessed him and said, “Blessed be Abram by God ('êl) Most High (‛elyôn), Possessor of heaven and earth. And blessed be the Most High (‛elyôn) God (˒ēl)... But Abram said to the king of Sodom, “I have lifted my hand to the LORD (yehôvâh), God (˒ēl) Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth”
Deuteronomy 7:21, “You shall not be in dread of them, for the LORD (yehôvâh) your God (˒ĕlōhı̂m) is in your midst, a great and awesome God (˒ēl)”
Joshua 22:22, “The LORD (yehôvâh) God (˒ēl) of gods (˒ĕlōhı̂m), the LORD (yehôvâh) God (˒ēl) of gods (˒ĕlōhı̂m), he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the LORD (yehôvâh), (save us not this day,)”
2 Samuel 22:33, “This God (˒ēl) is my strong refuge and has made my way blameless”
Psalm 18:2, “The LORD (yehôvâh) is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God (˒ēl), my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower”
Psalm 90:2, “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from Everlasting to Everlasting you are God (˒ēl)”
Psalm 95:3, “For the LORD (yehôvâh) is a great God (˒ēl), and a great King above all gods (˒ĕlōhı̂m)”
Jeremiah 32:18, “Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great (gâdôl), the Mighty (gibwōr) God,(˒ēl) the LORD (yehôvâh) of hosts, is His Name”
Isaiah 9:6, is a Prophecy of The Messiah, Jesus Christ. One of Names by which He will be called, is “’êl gib·bō·wr”, translated even in the New World Translation, as “Mighty God”. The same Hebrew is found in chapter 10:21; Jeremiah 32:18; Deuteronomy 10:17. It is clear that there are Two distinct Persons Who are Mighty God.
The same can be seen for the singular ˒ĕlōah:
Deuteronomy 32:15, 17, “then he forsook God (˒ĕlōah) which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation...They sacrificed unto devils, not to God (˒ĕlōah); to gods (˒ĕlōhı̂m) whom they knew not”
Job 11:7, “Canst thou by searching find out God (˒ĕlōah)? canst thou find out the Almighty (shadday) unto perfection?”
Job 22:26, “For then shalt thou have thy delight in the Almighty (shadday), and shalt lift up thy face unto God (˒ĕlōah)”
Job 27:10, “Will he delight himself in the Almighty (shadday)? will he always call upon God (˒ĕlōah)?”
Job 33:12, “Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God (˒ĕlōah) is Greater (râbâh) than man”
Psalm 18:31, “For who is God (˒ĕlōah) save the LORD (yehôvâh)? or who is a Rock save our God (˒ĕlōhı̂m)?”
Psalm 114:7, “Tremble, thou earth, at the presence of the Lord ('âdôn), at the presence of the God (˒ĕlōah) of Jacob”
Isaiah 44:8, “Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God (˒ĕlōah) besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.”
From Saved by Grace
J.
“This is why theologians say that Christ is not a human person (which is a synonym for hypostasis) but that he is a divine person with a human nature.”
(Tony Arsenal, “Anhypostasis, Enhypostasis, and Bears … Oh My”)
Anhypostasis, Enhypostasis, and Bears… Oh My
(Tony Arsenal, “Anhypostasis, Enhypostasis, and Bears … Oh My”)
Anhypostasis, Enhypostasis, and Bears… Oh My
I’ve seen it (posted on several forums) and responded to it (on several forums).
It’s a simple fact that the cardinal number in Hebrew is echad. Anyone who knows Hebrew can confirm it for us.
One means one, not more than one.
Johann
Well-Known Member
If you are familiar with Brown why would you reckon Unitarians coming up against him?
How many times is the word echad being used in the scriptures and did you make a study yourself on this word, the plurals and the 'Us" accounts in scripture?
J.
Johann
Well-Known Member
If echad is a numerical one then why the need for yachid? Did Moshe get his numbers wrong?
J.
They come up against him for the same reason that they come up against any other trinitarian.
I don’t recall off the top of my head how many times echad occurs in the OT (it would be very easy to look it up) and I have made a study on the word, as well as the “ us” accounts you’re alluding to.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Johann
Well-Known Member
It’s a fact that echad is a numerical one. I’ve provided two sources documenting it. Many more can be added, if need be.
Yachid is a very rare word in scripture, and the connotation makes it unsuitable to use in reference to the one God.
Moses didn’t get his numbers wrong. Whoever taught you that echad isn’t a cardinal number in Hebrew doesn’t know Hebrew.
I think we are all in some sense theologians.
That aside, Arsenal is a trinitarian theologian / scholar. I quoted him and provided a link to what he wrote in order to further document that trinitarian theology historically rejects the teaching that Jesus is a human person.
Johann
Well-Known Member
he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my Spirit; not the Holy Spirit, nor his divine nature, but his human soul: for that he had a reasonable soul, as well as a true body, is certain; from his having an human understanding, will, and affections, ascribed to him; and indeed, without this he would not have been a perfect man, nor like unto us; and could not have been tempted, bore sorrows and griefs, and endured the wrath of God; nor could he have been a Saviour of souls: now just as he was expiring, as he made his soul an offering for sin, and which he offered unto God, he committed it to his divine care and protection; and to enjoy his presence, during its separation from his body,...DID CHRIST JESUS 'CEASED' TO EXCIST!?... using the words of the Psalmist in Psa_31:5 and this shows, that his spirit, or soul, belonged to God, the Father of spirits, and now returned to him that gave it; that it was immortal, and died not with the body, and was capable of existing in a separate state from it, and went immediately to heaven; all which is true of the souls of all believers in Christ; and what the dying head did, dying members may, and should, even commit their souls into the same hands: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost; breathed out his soul dismissed his spirit, laid down his life, freely and voluntarily, and which no man, or devil, otherwise could have taken away from him.
(4.) Paul likewise uses the term ἐκδύεσθαι, to unclothe one’s self, in reference to death (2Co_5:3-4), because the body is represented as the garment of the soul, as Plato calls it. The soul, therefore, as long as it is in the body, is clothed, and as soon as it is disembodied is naked.
(5.) The terms which denote sleep are applied frequently in the Bible, as everywhere else, to death (Psa_76:5; Jer_51:39; Joh_11:13 sq.). Nor is this language used exclusively for the death of the pious, as some pretend, though this is its prevailing use. Homer calls sleep and death twin brothers (Il. 16:672). The terms likewise which signify to lie down, to rest, also denote death.
j.
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