When the Bible says, "Dead", what does it mean?

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Episkopos

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Some people think grace is the overlooking of sinful ways....and others believe it is the power to not sin.

Being dead to sin means that the power of sin has no effect on us. That is only possible when our outer man (containing the sin nature) is crucified with Christ.
 

ScottA

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You say we should believe Jesus when he speaks, so that means I should believe him when he says at John 20:17 that after his resurrection that he said he has a Father and God that is his Apostles and disciples Father and God, right? That would mean YHWH is the Father and God of Jesus so YHWH is my Father and God just as he is Jesus Father and God.
This means YHWH God and Jesus are not the same person and it was YHWH God who resurrected Jesus.
True enough in one sense, but not in the ultimate sense.

In other words, if I by my right hand am the father of an industry--I am that father, and it is also my baby. But what have I said? I have said there is a father and a son...but I have also said that they are one.

Likewise, if we become One in marriage with the Son...if the Father and the Son are One, have we also married them both--breaking the law of God? No, but rather, the prayer of Christ has been answered that we too should be One with them both.

Which things if said before the world would be foolishness, and appear to be crazy. But why would we then use worldly wisdom and semantics to undo what God has joined together?

We should not, but rather have nothing to do with bringing worldly law into the courts of God.

The point being--both are true (and you are correct)--but only in their proper context.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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True enough in one sense, but not in the ultimate sense.

In other words, if I by my right hand am the father of an industry--I am that father, and it is also my baby. But what have I said? I have said there is a father and a son...but I have also said that they are one.

Likewise, if we become One in marriage with the Son...if the Father and the Son are One, have we also married them both--breaking the law of God? No, but rather, the prayer of Christ has been answered that we too should be One with them both.

Which things if said before the world would be foolishness, and appear to be crazy. But why would we then use worldly wisdom and semantics to undo what God has joined together?

We should not, but rather have nothing to do with bringing worldly law into the courts of God.

The point being--both are true (and you are correct)--but only in their proper context.

So you don't really believe what Jesus says, you only believe what he says in the sense that you say he is saying it. I don't agree with how we should look at this scripture. What I see is whenever someone else looks at scriptures in the sense that they say those scriptures should be looked at, someone says they're not believing Jesus, I think that's interesting.
 

ScottA

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So you don't believe what Jesus says, you only believe what he says in the sense that you say he is saying. So whenever someone else looks at scriptures in the sense that they say the scriptures should be looked at, someone says they're not believing Jesus, I think that's interesting.
Not at all--that is not what I said.

But rather, that you applied it only to the smaller part of what is true. It's like this:

If I were a plumber and I go to work and those who I am working for call me a plumber...that is only one context. But if my wife brings me lunch and calls me her husband, she too is correct. That is why I said that you are correct even though you did not consider every context and correctly arrive at the correct conclusion--or at least state it as such. In other words, saying that the Father and the Son "are not the same person", is like saying a plumber and a husband cannot be the same person.

But the plumber and the husband are one, as is God.​
 

Wrangler

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But the plumber and the husband are one, as is God.
Horrible equating of a relationship with the emergence of a new person.

A plumber is what a person DOES. A husband is a relationship status of the same person.

A plumber is what a being DOES. A husband is a relationship status of the same being.
 

ScottA

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Horrible equating of a relationship with the emergence of a new person.

A plumber is what a person DOES. A husband is a relationship status of the same person.

A plumber is what a being DOES. A husband is a relationship status of the same being.
You are being all the more foolish.

Who DOES the will of His Father? And who has known the Father, except Christ who has declared Him?
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Not at all--that is not what I said.

But rather, that you applied it only to the smaller part of what is true. It's like this:

If I were a plumber and I go to work and those who I am working for call me a plumber...that is only one context. But if my wife brings me lunch and calls me her husband, she too is correct. That is why I said that you are correct even though you did not consider every context and correctly arrive at the correct conclusion--or at least state it as such. In other words, saying that the Father and the Son "are not the same person", is like saying a plumber and a husband cannot be the same person.

But the plumber and the husband are one, as is God.​

What I understand from what the scriptures are saying is that YHWH God is the only True God who is the Almighty God. This is the person who is the Father and God of Jesus so for anyone to try to teach me that is true only in some small part of what is true isn't going to wash with me. Jesus said he had a Father and God who is also his followers Father and God. This is the truth. You want to disagree with me, that's your choice. I will continue to disagree with what you're saying when I can see you're only going by a opinion and not by scripture. I don't expect you to agree with I just said you and I will disagree. Jesus isn't YHWH God he is the Only Begotten Son of YHWH God. So YHWH God is the Father and God of Jesus and is our Father and God.
 

ScottA

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What I understand from what the scriptures are saying is that YHWH God is the only True God who is the Almighty God. This is the person who is the Father and God of Jesus so for anyone to try to teach me that is true only in some small part of what is true isn't going to wash with me. Jesus said he had a Father and God who is also his followers Father and God. This is the truth. You want to disagree with me, that's your choice. I will continue to disagree with what you're saying when I can see you're only going by a opinion and not by scripture. I don't expect you to agree with I just said you and I will disagree. Jesus isn't YHWH God he is the Only Begotten Son of YHWH God. So YHWH God is the Father and God of Jesus and is our Father and God.
I was not saying that what you believe is not what is written or that it is my opinion that I believe differently, or that I even disagree. I was rather speaking of "all truth", not just what is written on tablets, but also promised for these times of the spirit of God by Christ. If Jesus had not told His disciples that He had more to tell them that they could not then bear, or that there were not many more books that could be written, I would not even mention it, even if I knew it to be true. But knowing that we are rather to "follow" and to "press on", I am speaking what I know according to the promises of Christ--which is to say, by the Spirit. For which I will give you one more example, and then drop it:

If one had come along before Christ had referred to Himself as the Bridegroom and said, "I tell you a mystery and a greater context regarding marriage as Christ is unto the church", such a one would not have been believed. But after, when Paul did that very thing after thousands of years of darkness and not knowing the full meaning behind the practice of marriage, it is now believed and is a reality according to the promise.

It is in this same way that I am referring to the Right Hand of God, not as separate, but as One. Which was only true separately for "a time, times, and half a time", and then "finished." Therefore, He also said, "I and the Father are One."​
 

Wrangler

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Likewise, if we become One in marriage with the Son...if the Father and the Son are One, have we also married them both--breaking the law of God? No
More mysticism?

The point being--both are true (and you are correct)--but only in their proper context.

Yup, that's dualism. Contradictions abound. In is out. Polygamy is monogamy, etc. Context, you see.
 

ScottA

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Mockers, always mockers. They came for the flesh, now they come for the Spirit against the warnings.

This too was foretold.
 

Davy

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That's not how I understand this. We - not our flesh - the person has been justified. And that justification removes us from sin in our flesh.

I don't know how else to understand Apostle Paul when he is speaking of a LITERAL dead flesh body...

Rom 6:6-7
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
KJV

Paul indeed is using the idea of a 'literal' dead body for an analogy there.


In an analogy, the thing one is comparing to has to actually exist, and in this case by Paul, it is a literal dead flesh body.

But Paul is using that dead flesh body to represent "the body of sin", and HOW are we to understand that, spiritually only, or literally like flesh causes sin? It is literal according to Paul that our flesh body causes most of our sins. How can we know that is what Paul understood? Because that is what Paul SHOWED about the flesh in the next Romans 7 Chapter, those Scriptures I also... quoted you, but you said nothing about.

So is there OTHER BIBLE SCRIPTURE by Apostle Paul that further confirms that he understood that our flesh body of sin is to be destroyed? YES! That is especially the idea Paul was teaching in 1 Corinthians 15 about the body of 'incorruption' NOT being able to inherit the Kingdom of God! (1 Corinthians 15:49-50).

Therefore, when we study God's Word, we aren't supposed to just forget what is written in the rest of God's Word. We aren't to ISOLATE a Scripture by itself and think that's how to get at the real meaning of Scripture.
 
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marks

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I don't know how else to understand Apostle Paul when he is speaking of a LITERAL dead flesh body...

Rom 6:6-7
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
KJV

Paul indeed is using the idea of a 'literal' dead body for an analogy there.


In an analogy, the thing one is comparing to has to actually exist, and in this case by Paul, it is a literal dead flesh body.

But Paul is using that dead flesh body to represent "the body of sin", and HOW are we to understand that, spiritually only, or literally like flesh causes sin? It is literal according to Paul that our flesh body causes most of our sins. How can we know that is what Paul understood? Because that is what Paul SHOWED about the flesh in the next Romans 7 Chapter, those Scriptures I also... quoted you, but you said nothing about.

So is there OTHER BIBLE SCRIPTURE by Apostle Paul that further confirms that he understood that our flesh body of sin is to be destroyed? YES! That is especially the idea Paul was teaching in 1 Corinthians 15 about the body of 'incorruption' NOT being able to inherit the Kingdom of God! (1 Corinthians 15:49-50).

Therefore, when we study God's Word, we aren't supposed to just forget what is written in the rest of God's Word. We aren't to ISOLATE a Scripture by itself and think that's how to get at the real meaning of Scripture.
Are you saying then that we will not have the power to not sin until we've physically died?

In fact, there are quite a number of passages which agree that even while in this flesh body, which still lives (such as it is), we have the power to not sin. There seems to be a certain expectation throughout New Testament that in Christ we have power to live righteous lives.

There are many Scriptures we can look at with this, I like to focus on ones we see differently to discover why the difference. And that's why I appreciate this dialog.

That word, destroyed,
(KJV) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
(LITV) knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be nullified, so that we no longer serve sin.
(YLT) this knowing, that our old man was crucified with him , that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin;

This is translated from katargeo, which speaks of "casting down working", or as translated in these others, "nullified", "made useless", another translation has "made of no effect. The word commonly translated "destory" is appolumi, and speaks of destruction more the way we think of it, ruin, fully destroy, abolish, obliterate, like that.

But in being crucified with Christ, we've died,

Colossians 3:1-3 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Galatians 5:24 KJV
24) And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

And having died,

Romans 6:7 KJV
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.

. . . we've been freed from sin,

Romans 6:11 KJV
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And now are to understand that this is in fact true,

Romans 6:12-14 KJV
12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

. . . and to live in that freedom from sin.

Much love!
 

marks

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[QUOTE="Davy, post: 1315305, member: 7759"

I don't know how else to understand Apostle Paul when he is speaking of a LITERAL dead flesh body...

Rom 6:6-7
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
KJV[/QUOTE

Much love!
 

Davy

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Are you saying then that we will not have the power to not sin until we've physically died?

I am saying you will CONTINUE to slip up even in small sins (not sins unto death), even in Christ WHILE you are in the body of flesh. This is why Apostle John told us what to do in that case, repenting and asking forgiveness of Jesus of FUTURE SINS we may slip up and commit. It's just... a thing of THIS present world with our flesh. It causes most of our sins.

Now if you say since you have believed on Jesus and been baptized, that you can't sin anymore, then Apostle John says that is to make Christ a liar...

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

KJV
 

marks

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Now if you say since you have believed on Jesus and been baptized, that you can't sin anymore, then Apostle John says that is to make Christ a liar...
Which I don't say . . .

Much love!
 

Davy

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In fact, there are quite a number of passages which agree that even while in this flesh body, which still lives (such as it is), we have the power to not sin. There seems to be a certain expectation throughout New Testament that in Christ we have power to live righteous lives.

There are many Scriptures we can look at with this, I like to focus on ones we see differently to discover why the difference. And that's why I appreciate this dialog.
....

Being given the 'power' to not sin is one matter, but the fact that we STILL slip up at times and are not ABSOLUTELY PERFECT LIKE JESUS is another matter.

I well understand how many Churches today are preaching the 'once saved, always saved' message with some of them going so far as to say we have no more need for repentance, ever, after having believed on Jesus Christ. That simply ain't... true per God's Word.

Hate to break the news, but I am a very strong believer on The Father and His Son Jesus Christ, and I know I am still a sinner, because like Apostle Paul himself taught, even what I want to do, and set out to do, I sometimes find myself doing the opposite!

So most often I feel the need to repent to Jesus and ask forgiveness DAILY! And I am not full of self-pride that I would mind doing that repentance to Him.

And what do you think the Communion with Christ is for? You think that's just a ritual rote you've got to do that is like attending His funeral? NO! It is a time for introspection on our behaviour as one of His, and to work out problems we're having with Him. It ain't no ceremonial ritual done by habit like in the old covenant.
 

marks

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I am saying you will CONTINUE to slip up even in small sins (not sins unto death), even in Christ WHILE you are in the body of flesh. This is why Apostle John told us what to do in that case, repenting and asking forgiveness of Jesus of FUTURE SINS we may slip up and commit. It's just... a thing of THIS present world with our flesh. It causes most of our sins.

Now if you say since you have believed on Jesus and been baptized, that you can't sin anymore, then Apostle John says that is to make Christ a liar...

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

KJV
I think that this death we are discussing is the separation of our new creation from the old man of flesh, and that while we still contend with the old man, yet we have the winning hand. Only we are not consistent in our trust in Jesus, and therefore are not consistent in our overcoming our flesh.

Much love!
 

marks

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Hate to break the news, but I am a very strong believer on The Father and His Son Jesus Christ, and I know I am still a sinner, because like Apostle Paul himself taught, even what I want to do, and set out to do, I sometimes find myself doing the opposite!
Consider . . .

Romans 7:16-21 KJV
16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

It is no more I, but sin that lives in me.

So then it used to be "I" that was the sinner, but now it is "no more I", but sin that lives in me, that is, in my flesh.

Much love!
 

marks

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And what do you think the Communion with Christ is for? You think that's just a ritual rote you've got to do that is like attending His funeral?
Communion with Christ, to me, is a continual sharing of life with the life giver. To have my heart continually open to God. To have the primary life relationship, more intimate then with my wife, my brother, my sister, my friend, He IS my constant companion, sharing everything. To me that is communion.

Much love!