By grace through faith

Okay, I'm starting to be a little confused by what you're actually saying, because it almost sounds like you are contradicting yourself at certain points below...and I'm sure you're not...so it must be my perception! I'm going to go through this slower and just try and clarify some things:

Prentis said:

The work of the cross is not assurance of salvation, it is new life! The cross is the death of the old life, and the ressurection the start of the new. We are a new creation in Christ so that we might be conformed to his image.

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I agree that the cross is new life, that through it we are to be conformed to his image...but I cannot accept it is not assurance of salvation. The cross is assurance of everything to those who believe!

[16] “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16 ESV)

Accepting the cross, believing what Jesus did there and loving him for it, gives us eternal life....life being salvation, the restoring of our relationship with God and the promise to live with him forever.

It is possible for a man to start in the way of the Lord, to be full of joy, and to get sucked out by the world. The seed that fell on the shallow ground, was it not real seed? And the plant, was it not then also a real plant? Yet it did whither. The seed that produced, but was choked out by weeds, was it fake seed? Was the plant not the same plant from the same seed? It was, of course. It is human nature to try and save itself. If on the one hand we are honest enough to see that it says we must persevere, we try and flip it around again by saying that there is no possibility of us not persevering. The truth is, we can fail! Only when we abide in him are we safe, and to abide requires to remain.

It is possible to frustrate the grace of God, and to grieve the Spirit.

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The seed here is the gospel...and that will never change, no matter if it falls on deaf ears or not. I do not want to argue so much as whether a person, once saved, has the ability and choice to then reject it...I'm more concerned with your notion that grace is but a tool that we use to secure our own salvation.
I agree we can frustrate God and grieve the Holy Spirit. We do both daily when we ignore or fail to notice their urging and sin. But do I loose my salvation when I do these things? No, he perseveres with me, convicting again and again until I kneel before him in repentance. God has promised that those who are his children are always his children.

Jesus' sacrifice was not to hide our sins. To forgive them? Yes. But not only. First we are forgiven if we repent, and then we receive grace, with which we must persevere so that we are conformed to him. Christ is not only pictured as a savior, but as a teacher and a master. A teacher seeks to make his students like him, and that is how he is our savior, by teaching us his ways.

If we stop halfway through the race, did we never run in it? We did run, but we lose.

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Again, I have nothing to say against this...even believing my salvation is assured in Christ, I still seek to live for and conform myself to him...I can do no less. It is the desire of my new heart and in my love I cannot help but seek to follow the demands he makes to us in scripture.

To find a way to make the scriptures say that our salvation is guaranteed and assured is akin to trying to save ourselves. I know many do this innocently, only it is not according to the truth of the gospel.

Christ has overcome, and so must we, through him.

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Now here...this is the part that confuses me. For I understood that you have said this before: grace is but a tool that we use to secure our own salvation...that it is by our own steam, our own hard work, that we see the race won. And yet here you talk against "saving ourselves". In fact you say that having assurance in Christ and his work, is the same as saving ourselves. That just doesn't make sense! If my assurance is in Christ, then I know nothing I do can ever weigh in on the whole justification issue. I can live for him, use my life to reflect his glory and live a life that pleases God...but my works, my efforts towards righteousness and godliness, can never achieve what is needed to gain salvation.
Yes, Christ has overcome, and yes, through him we can live a life that is pleasing to God...but never, never for our own salvation. That can only and will only ever come through Jesus and his perfect life and death on the cross. If we want to weigh in on the issue, it would take our death, and still we would come up short...even having a new life in Christ, our lives can never be the perfect sinless life that he lived.

Here is something written by John Piper on Hebrews and the topic...I'm hoping he might put it better and in a way that makes my position clearer for you:

Hebrews Teaches Eternal Security

On the basis of this text I said last week that this book teaches eternal security. That is, it teaches that if you have truly become a partaker of Christ, you will always be one. He will work in you to preserve your faith and hope. Another way to say it is that if you are a child of God, you cannot cease to be a child of God. But we all know that there are many people who make a start in the Christian life and then fall away and forsake the Lord. That kind of person is very much on this writer's mind. He knows that happens and he deals with it in this text and how to keep it from happening. But when it happens, his explanation is not that the person really was a partaker of Christ, but that he never had become a true partaker of Christ. If we hold fast to our assurance, we have become a partaker of Christ; if we do not, then we have not become a partaker of Christ.
In other words persevering in faith and hope, holding fast to your confidence in God, is not a way to keep from losing your standing in Christ; it is a way of showing that you have a standing in Christ. That standing can never be lost, because you have it by the free grace of God, and because Christ has promised with a covenant and an oath (Hebrews 6:17–19) to keep those who are his (Hebrews 13:5; 20–21). In other words, my security and assurance is not a decision or a prayer that I remember doing in the past; my security and assurance is the faithfulness and power of God to keep me hoping in him in the future. My security is that "he who began a good work in me will complete it to the day of Christ" (Philippians 1:6).

jiggyfly said:

I know you think that you know what and how I believe, but your assumptions are wrong, so I'd be careful wagering on what you think I believe.

At any rate were done on this topic, I see no reason to continue with something that is simply beyond your scope.

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So tell us plainly, do you believe that everyone will be saved? Everyone but me? C'mon Jiggy, fess up. Why do I need to "be careful" if there's no eternal Hell???

Okay, I really feel you are missing such a joyful and freeing fact of what Christ has done, I'm gonna keep going here! I'm not frustrated or intent on proving myself right in this....I'm truly desiring to show you what scripture says about all this...so, I'm hoping you aren't getting cranky that I won't drop this...I know some get frustrated at back and forths like this!

Prentis said:

No no no. I don't mean that grace is a way of securing your salvation.

Grace is power that we may walk like him. Salvation IS Christ, and it is only in him that we have it and are safe. If we don't abide, we are lost. We can neither earn, sercure, or own salvation. Christ Jesus is not for sale, and if he IS salvation, that means you can't own salvation. You can only follow it.

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Granted, we cannot walk like Christ without Him, but that is my very point. I'll try and make this as succinct as possible:

Jesus tells us to listen to Him: [24] Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. (John 5:24 ESV)

He tells us to believe in Him: [40] For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
(John 6:40 ESV)

[13] In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, [14] who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14 ESV)

So, by hearing and believing in Him we have eternal life...we have a guarantee of it...sure we have to wait for it...our glorification will come when we stand before Christ at the end of the age...but still, we have that promise and we know God is faithful.
It also says that in believing we are sealed with the Holy Spirit...that His presence in our lives marks our guarantee. We are also told that it is this Spirit...His power and work within our lives, that enables us to live a life pleasing to God:

[13] For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. [14] For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
(Romans 8:13-14 ESV)

Indeed, without the Spirit's work in our life, any hope of living a godly life is out the window:

[18] For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. (Romans 7:18 ESV)

We are also told, that once we believe in Jesus, once we have been sealed with the Holy Spirit and become a child of God, restored to righteousness in His sight by Christ's blood, that we will never be forsaken:

[7] But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. [8] We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; [9] persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; (2 Corinthians 4:7-9 ESV)

[5] Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.” (Hebrews 13:5 ESV)

[16] And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, [17] even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. (John 14:16-17 ESV)

And as far as sanctification goes...us living a righteous and holy life...through the power of the Holy Spirit, for the glory of God's name...the fruit we bare is by the Holy Spirit, for the glory of God and under the assurance of salvation through Christ.

[22] But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. [23] For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Romans 6:22-23 ESV)

It's all about God, and the Trinity's role in saving history...not about us. Our purpose in life...especially in new life, is all about giving glory to God. Our good works are only achievable through God, and they are for God, not for us in any way...especially not for attaining and holding onto something to has already freely been given to us.

What you're telling me would amount to this Rach; because one time God touched someone, and that person called upon the Lord, then that person becomes God's favorite and cannot be lost. God has favorites? It is a dangerous thing to consider oneself to be God's favorite and special person. If we have received more, more is expected of us.

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I'm not going to get into the debate of Calvinism vs Arminianism. But I will say this...I in no way, shape of form think that God elected me for salvation because I'm better or more worthy than anyone else. It simply is not so...it will never be so. If I am ever more 'godly' than anyone else, it will only be through the Holy Spirit working in me...by myself, my strivings are 'filthy rags' in God's sight, and I am very aware of that.
As far as favourites go...I don't know, but we are told this:

[28] And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. [29] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30 ESV)

[11] though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—[12] she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” [13] As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
[14] What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! [15] For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” [16] So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. [17] For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” [18] So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
[19] You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” [20] But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
[21] Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? [22] What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [23] in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— (Romans 9:11-20; Romans 9:21-23 ESV)

Does God have favourites? I don't know. But what the Bible teaches is this: not a single one was worthy, but God has chosen a few. And that was His divine right. Even should He have favourites, it is shameful to think we have any right to comment on His soverign workings and choice. Remember, it's not about us, or our rights. Everything God does, every choice He makes, every person He brings to Him, is about His glory, about the praise of His glorious grace.

The whole nation of Israel, in faith, partook of the lamb and puts it's blood on the posts of their house, and because of this, they were saved and delivered out of Egypt! Wonderful! How many, of a whole nation, made it into the promised land? 2. Joshua and Caleb! The others, died in the wilderness because of unbelief.

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And yet in Romans 4:9 we are told that Abraham's faith was accounted to him as righteousness before his actions of obedience. God chose him, he believed and was accedited righteousness in that faith, and then he obeyed God and circumcised himself. Likewise with us, we have faith and recieve salvation, and that salvation leads to a life of obedience.

Likewise, one who has been born again has, by faith, been washed in the blood of Christ, this world no longer has to hold any power over him! Wonderful! If he does not move in faith though, and fails his test in the wilderness, he will not enter the promised land either.

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Ok, here is that thought that we discussed by a person being 'on the bus' as opposed to 'running next to the bus'. You think that a person who was genuinely saved can at any point tear himself away from Jesus, or perhaps, just do that by sheer sinfulness and lack of regard for the demands of Christ. I disagree. I think anyone who 'jumps off the bus' was never on it in the first place.
Here's the thing...people are not dumb...well, okay, some are...but generally they can grasp simple concepts. Like this...the world is bad, their life sucks, something needs to make it better. Some turn to sex, or sport or money, or a billion other things. Many turn to religion. Many turn to Christianity. They are told the gospel, and intellectually, they get it! Follow Jesus, believe in Jesus, and they get a free ticket! It sounds awesome! So they go to church, they read their bible until they can quote verses and keep up with any conversation at church, they visit sick people and run the local youth group. They're following Jesus! They know their stuff! But it's all false! Jesus tells us that only God can open a person's heart, mind and soul to really hear the gospel, to really get it...to recieve the Holy Spirit.

[31] So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, (John 8:31 ESV)

"Truly my disciples"...that implies that some who claim to be disciples are not genuine. Time will eventually tell the truth...do people continue to abide in Jesus? In his word, in his demands? People who jump off the bus...they were never truly there in the first place...they were just running along side.

[4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. [5] I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. [6] If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. (John 15:4-6 ESV)

Jesus is saying here that if we are to bear fruit, we must be with him...he must be with us...abide IN me and He IN us. To do any of this (as discussed above) we must have God working in us, and if we have that, we have salvation and the assurance that he will never leave us.
Jesus is also saying here that any branch that doesn't bear fruit will whither and be cut off and burned. But following from what he just said, we can see that if they are not bearing fruit, the person was never abiding in Jesus in the first place. He may have been part of the church, but Jesus was never within them, changing them and leading to producing fruit.

God has not changed; he has not gone from being the God of the OT who required faithfulness to being the God of the NT who picks favorites out of the group to who he will have mercy NO MATTER WHAT (once converted).

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I think the Bible clearly teaches that those who are truly saved...those who truly abide with Jesus, will change. We're not perfect...it takes time, patience, stumbling, hard lessons and tears...but ultimately we strive for God and move forward. "Christians" who do not move forward...they have never had their heart renewed and changed. Those who have truly met Christ...He becomes our passion...the very centre of our universe and we can do no other than to live for Him in our stilted, awkward ways! That is what the process of sanctification is all about...a life long journey to love Him better and better!

To be honest, I remain perplexed as to how people can somehow believe in assurance of salvation in the face of this verse:

[sup]22[/sup]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

There is not much of a solution other than ignoring it if we want to think somehow we can't be cut off.

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Again, I believe that the Bible clearly teaches towards assurance of salvation...I remain perplexed at how some cannot see that! What do we have faith in if not eternal life? How often does it say that having faith in Jesus gives us eternal life??? And in this light, we must see all these ^^^^ verses to mean that those who claim Jesus but clearly have not met him, will in time be sifted away from true believers...time will tell that they loved the idea, but not the man.

[9] You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
(Romans 8:9 ESV)

Some call 'church' there home, and 'Christianity' their religion. Some love doing righteous deeds and serving others, some sing to Jesus and clap their hands. But if they do not have the Spirit, they are not truly Christians, and one day, when a crisis hits, or sin trips them up...they will not have the only thing that allows us to get back on our feet....the Spirit of God working within us.

PS...sorry for the length...yes, that was me being succint!!

Those who aren't STRIVING to enter God's Kingdom are deceived and will not enter His Kingdom. MANY 'Christians' will be rejected by God. Those who live in sin or defend living in sin will not inherit His Kingdom. Narrow is the way and FEW there be...

Luke 13:23-24 (NKJV)
23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them, 24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

You see, here we reach the point where you point at me and say "you interpret scripture wrong" and then I say the same to you.
Honestly, did you read what I wrote. I never said we aren't to live a righteous life, I never said we are to sin, I never said we are allowed to let our flesh overtake the Spirit, I never said that have security in my salvation means I now have the excuse or the inclination to go forth and live in a sinful manner. I showed scripture that states outright that faith...not 'living', but faith in Jesus, gives us eternal life. You are the one who is 'adding' to that. I merely say that based on those very clear scriptures, that the way we then understand other scriptures in regards to how we live our life, is based on what we have been told.
Do you remember this passage: [8] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8; Ephesians 1-2:10 ESV)

How does that work in with your idea that Jesus gives us grace...which is just a nudge down the path of godly living, and if, at the end of our life, we have lived up to Jesus' expectations, we get out salvation? That puts at least some of the glory on you for how you lived your life, doesn't it? Notice how it says that we are saved by faith, a free gift given. Then it says that we have been saved for good works. Not, saved because of good works, through good works...but FOR. We are saved and in thanks and response, due to our new state, we then spend our lives doing good works already laid out for us. Man, these passages are pretty clear! How can you think I'm twisting them to my own purposes? I'm not doing so so I can live my life as I choose. My life is full of praise, repentance and growth! As I said before...the difference seems to be you want people to believe this life style is necessary to complete or hold on to what was already freely given...Never, does scripture say "salvation is through faith...and then you gotta work to keep it"...Works are good...they edify your new life and therefore edify Jesus...but the only thing they have to do with salvation, is that they are a means to show we are....

[4] But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, [5] he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, [6] whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, [7] so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. [8] The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. (Titus 3:4-8 ESV)

Rach said:

You see, here we reach the point where you point at me and say "you interpret scripture wrong" and then I say the same to you.

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Actually I wasn't referring directly you Rach. If you would say whom you are addressing it would help avoid some confusion. Not sure why you took it personal.

Prentis said:

Well, then, don't mind if I drop it. I've said what I had to say on the subject

It doesn't matter how many billion scriptures you interpret, if you interpret them in such a way that cancels those other ones, it is not the truth. Modern Christianity has taken half the verse, wrapped them nicely together, and decided what they meant, even though it went against the other half.

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Okay..look, I agree we should drop it...it doesn't seem to be going anywhere. I recognise that you are firm in what you believe, and you know, that's fine. I think you're wrong, but I respect that you think differently. Everyone does!!

I would ask, however, that you maybe think twice, next time, before suggesting that I've twisted scripture...interpreted it to my own purposes. I think that I laid out very clearly what I believe and shown the scriptures that made me believe it. Honestly, I am after nothing but the glory of Jesus Christ. I treasure His word, and believe I have read it correctly, indeed, feel it strongly. Salvation by grace alone through faith alone is in nearly every passage in every book Paul wrote.

Anyway, wish you well Prentis!!

Duckybill said:

Actually I wasn't referring directly you Rach. If you would say whom you are addressing it would help avoid some confusion. Not sure why you took it personal.

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Sorry! Was addressing Prentis!

Rach said:

Sorry! Was addressing Prentis!

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Thanks for clarifying.

Notice how Jesus 's words are excluded from these types of debate. Or at least Paul's word, with what people think they mean, are given more weight than Jesus'.

Would that we seek to interpret Paul through Jesus, rather than the other way around.

Paul is speaking to people who are walking in a new power. This is something far more rare these days. We shouldn't read Paul's words as being applied to bible readers or Jesus believers in a blanket way. There was a "revival" going on then. We wiull not see that type of revival unless we recognize our lack...not harp on the riches we think we have.

It is good to keep in mind the warning of Jesus to the church on Laodicea. I am convinced that we are presently in this time period in church history. So we should take into account the superficiality of our time and how that has made it's way into the churches.

Can we not see the sign of the times?