Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Jesus died. Proof that he is not God.
Only a trinitarian mystic could think it is not as simple as that.
The Nature of Jesus Christ
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Jesus died. Proof that he is not God.
Only a trinitarian mystic could think it is not as simple as that.
I agree.
Men are mortal. We die.
God is immortal. He cannot die.
If Jesus was literally God, then he was immortal and couldn’t die.
If Jesus was figuratively God, then he was mortal and he could (and did) die.
“‘Tis myst’ry all: th’ Immortal dies:
And Can It Be? > Lyrics | Charles Wesley
This was one of my favorite hymns when I was a trinitarian.
Mystery solved. The immortal God didn’t die.
And Can It Be? > Lyrics | Charles Wesley
This was one of my favorite hymns when I was a trinitarian.
Mystery solved. The immortal God didn’t die.
Jesus wouldn't have died if we didn't kill Him. Death had no grip on Him. Only Jesus had a life to give. No one else ever born could choose to die. No one else's life was an acceptable Sacrifice. No one else could conquer death. No one else could be Our Savior. Because Jesus didn't eat the forbidden fruit like the first Adam He wouldn't have died if we didn't kill Him.
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- Hebrews 1:5
For to which of the angels did God ever say, You are My Son, today I have begotten You And again, I will be to Him a Father, and He will be to Me a Son?
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We didn’t kill God. All humans die and all humans can choose to die.
Jesus, not God, was resurrected from the dead by God.
If only the body dies then only a body died for our sins.
A body didn’t die for our sins. A sinless human person did.
I don’t find that persuasive.
If Jesus was divine - in the highest sense of that term - then no one saw, nor could see, Jesus.
Jesus is a human person.
Wrong.
A human person is a composite of body and soul. A body is not a person. A soul is not a person. The soul departs and enters a disembodied state known as death, rest or sleep. The place from which the witch of Endor summoned Samuel the prophet.
A person dies when the soul no longer animates the body. Jesus soul departed and entered the same disembodied state that every other person's soul entered at the moment of death.
Jesus experienced human death or His death can do nothing for us.
Nope. No one would choose death if they had that choice. Would you? Choosing when you die is the only choice you can make. You can't choose to avoid the consequence of sin.
Fundamentalists are generally unwilling to exam the implications of the implications of Jesus' full humanity. The human Jesus is limited in knowledge (e. g. Mark 13:32), power (Mark 6:5--"He could do not deeds of power there..."), and wisdom (Luke 2:52--"Jesus grew in wisdom..."). Paul sums up all Jesus' limitations by teaching, "He emptied Himself" to become fully human (Phil. 2:7). Emptied Himself of what? His divinity? No, He emptied Himself of His divine prerogatives. Indeed, Jesus had to do this in order to be "tested in every way just as we are (Heb. 4:15)."
But this self-emptying implies even more limitations. Jesus had not always been obedient; rather, He had to learn "to be obedient through the things He suffered (Heb. 5:8)." Therefore, Jesus only gradually "grew in favor...with God (Luke 2:52)." So His prayers were heard not because He was the Son of God, but because of His "godly reverence (Heb. 5:7)." So it should come as no surprise that Jesus felt the need to accept John's baptism of repentance, a fact that is not undermined by John's protest (Matt. 3:14-15). So Jesus had to learn by trial and error just like the rest of us.
This is clearly implied by Luke 2:41-52. Jesus (age 12) leaves His family entourage on their return journey from Jerusalem to Nazareth without telling His parents. This lack of considerateness makes His parents worried sick and forces them to launch a distraught 3-day search to track Him down. Finally, they locate Him in the Temple. Jesus is rightly rebuked by a distraught Mary: "Child, why have you treated us like this? Look, your father and I have been searching for you with great anxiety (2:48)." Clearly, Jesus should have told His parents where He was going! Luke rightly reacts to this mistake by musing, "Jesus grew in wisdom... and favor with God...(2:52).
To retain the doctrine of Christ's sinlessness we need to distinguish sin from the human necessity of maturation through a process of learning by trial and error.
But this self-emptying implies even more limitations. Jesus had not always been obedient; rather, He had to learn "to be obedient through the things He suffered (Heb. 5:8)." Therefore, Jesus only gradually "grew in favor...with God (Luke 2:52)." So His prayers were heard not because He was the Son of God, but because of His "godly reverence (Heb. 5:7)." So it should come as no surprise that Jesus felt the need to accept John's baptism of repentance, a fact that is not undermined by John's protest (Matt. 3:14-15). So Jesus had to learn by trial and error just like the rest of us.
This is clearly implied by Luke 2:41-52. Jesus (age 12) leaves His family entourage on their return journey from Jerusalem to Nazareth without telling His parents. This lack of considerateness makes His parents worried sick and forces them to launch a distraught 3-day search to track Him down. Finally, they locate Him in the Temple. Jesus is rightly rebuked by a distraught Mary: "Child, why have you treated us like this? Look, your father and I have been searching for you with great anxiety (2:48)." Clearly, Jesus should have told His parents where He was going! Luke rightly reacts to this mistake by musing, "Jesus grew in wisdom... and favor with God...(2:52).
To retain the doctrine of Christ's sinlessness we need to distinguish sin from the human necessity of maturation through a process of learning by trial and error.
We’ve seen that Jesus, himself a Jew, made this fundamental confession of Judaism.
“You shall love Yahweh your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might.”
(Deuteronomy 6:5, WEB)
Would you say that Jesus did or didn’t love Yahweh his God with all of his heart, with all of his soul, and with all of his might?
you are rejecting Christ, his church, his truth revealed and proposed by his church for the salvation of all men!
you deny the divinity of Christ?
You deny the most holy trinity?
you are not a Christian, outside the new covenant communion of saints
I’m not surprised by your stance but I’m surprised that this is your response to my post. I was anticipating that you would say either two or three.
Jewish monotheism is unitarian, not trinitarian.
I see only one person in the verses I asked you about.
Are you Roman Catholic?
Is what you are saying here that Jesus disobeyed His heavenly Father? His earthly parents? That Jesus committed sin? From which He had to repent?
Much love!
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