Perry Stone Talks Rapture

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teamventure

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the word rapture isn't in the bible. the word rapture means to be caught up or snatched away so the meaning is there. you know the word trinity isn't in the bible either but the meaning is there.
by your logic the trinity shouldn't exist.

1 thessalonians 4:17 then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord
 

veteran

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the word rapture isn't in the bible. the word rapture means to be caught up or snatched away so the meaning is there. you know the word trinity isn't in the bible either but the meaning is there.
by your logic the trinity shouldn't exist.

1 thessalonians 4:17 then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord

That's not proper deductive reasoning about the trinity idea. The subject is, the word "rapture". You're right, it's not in The Bible, not in the Bible manuscripts either. That's why I'd rather used the idea of our 'gathering' to Christ. It's because most often today when someone says that word 'rapture', the majority of the time they intend the false Pre-trib secret rapture doctrine that came out of 1830's Britain by John Darby.

I believe the word 'harpazo' in the Greek, which is... in the Bible manuscripts. But I don't depend just on that word in the 1 Thess.4 Scripture to understand how we are gathered to Christ Jesus, because 'harpazo' is applied a couple other ways in God's Word which have nothing to do with Christ's coming.

As for The Godhead, I most definitely believe in a Triune Godhead, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.
 

teamventure

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ah. i see, now that you have clarified your point. however, i defer more in your enterpretation of the tribulation than your ideas on the rapture.
 

Israelsson

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Down here in Satan's kingdom (Earth)
The Rapture is a false doctrine, and can be found nowhere in scripture.

In The Parable of the Tares and the Wheat, Jesus teaches us that, The Tares are the children of the wicked one (Canaanites/Edomites) The Wheat are the Children of God, the field is the World, the reapers are the Angels, and the harvest is the END OF THE AGE.

If you read what Jesus says from His own mouth, you SHOULD see that He is describing the EVIL being taken and cast into the furnace BEFORE the 'wheat' is stored in the barn.

This is from our Saviors mouth, so to go contrary to this just because it doesn't seem fair, or its not the happy ending that youve been taught where we 'go' to heaven, doesn't mean that it isn't true.

Straight is the way and narrow is the gate and few there be that find it.

Yah Bless
 

rockytopva

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There is so much hate and animosity behind the posts of you post tribbers that I question your motives...
 

teamventure

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There is so much hate and animosity behind the posts of you post tribbers that I question your motives...

i have noticed some animosity towards pre tribbers. (not that i care to argue the timing of the trib)
there was even someone teaching about it and he literally looked angry when refering to the pre trib idea.
what does this mean? what type of motives does someone have when they hold all this animosity??
 

n2thelight

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So,how would you all(rapturist)like to make $10,000

"RAPTURE! PROPHECY OR HERESY"

is a book by Colonel H. Speed Wilson (Daring Publisher). Since 1989, he has offered a $10,000 reward to anyone who can prove scripturally that the Saints are taken OUT OF THE WORLD.

The following is taken from the back cover of the book. "The Rapture theology has been one of the most controversial topics among Christians since the early 1800s to the present. The most commonly addressed questions in the popular books, pamphlets and sermons is WHEN will the Rapture occur? WILL the Rapture be pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, or post-tribulation? And...WILL it be a secret and silent removal of Christians or a glorious return of JESUS?

As an astute Bible Scholar, Speed Wilson now raises a question in his thought-provoking book he feels is the most important and even critical question of all, IS THERE REALLY TO BE A RAPTURE?

Topics in Speed's book include Rapture Support Arguments, Origin of Rapture, What May Happen, What We Must Do, Consequences of the Rapture Doctrine, and, finally, Your $10,000 Challenge!

Speed is offering this $10,000 reward to anyone who can, after reading his book, reference any scriptures that clearly state that the Saints (Holy Ones, Righteous, Church, Body, Bride, Wheat...etc.) Are taken out of the world! Details as to how to receive this reward are presented in the book. The publisher, Daring Books, will give a $1,000 reward to the bookstore that sells the book to the person who qualifies for the $10,000 reward!"
This book has been updated in June 2010, and is now called "RAPTURE - A DANGEROUS DECEPTION" - 261 PAGE PAPERBACK - available at Amazon.com and other places.

RAPTURE - A DANGEROUS DECEPTION - An expanded revision of, "RAPTURE - PROPHECY OR HERESY?" by Col. H. Speed Wilson – What if an escape “rapture” is not a Bible truth? We can reject the truth, but, we cannot escape the consequences of rejecting truth. God’s Word is Truth! This 261 page book exposes more than forty (40) “rapture” related deceptions.

Colonel H. Speed Wilson, U.S. Marine Corps (Ret.) has served in combat in 12 named battles and campaigns during three wars. In recognition of his achievement in battle as a fighter pilot in World War II and Korea, he was awarded 3 Distinguished Flying Crosses, 16 Air Medals, and 5 Distinguished Combat Unit Awards. During combat duty in Vietnam, he served as Chief of Staff of the 9th Marine Amphibious Brigade, which was an air-ground team of 20,000 Marines. In this assignment, he was awarded the Legion of Merit with a Combat “V” and the Republic of Vietnam’s Distinguished Service Cross, which is one of the highest decorations awarded to a foreigner.

During his eight years of duty at our nation’s Capitol, Colonel Wilson served on many high-level planning and policy boards and was awarded the Marine Corps Commendation Medal for Meritorious Service. On July 1st, 1973, he retired after 31 years as a Marine. Colonel Wilson served 14 years (1973–1987) as an International Director of the Full Gospel Business Men’s Fellowship International. He was often a featured speaker at international, national, regional, and state conventions; local monthly chapter meetings; and church congregations. He also conducts seven-day and weekend Bible seminars. He has been a guest on many TV and radio programs and has frequently been a speaker at Lake Hamilton Bible Camp.

http://www.demonbuster.com/rapture.html

Matthew 24:37-41 (Jesus speaking) But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days that were before the flood, THEY (the wicked) were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark. And THEY (the wicked) knew not until the flood came and took THEM (the wicked) ALL AWAY; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.





Verse 40 - Then shall two be in the field, the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN, and the other left.

Two shall be grinding at the mill; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN and the other left.

Luke 17:26, 27 and 34-36 (Jesus speaking) As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the day of the Son of Man. THEY (the WICKED) did eat, THEY (the WICKED) did drink, THEY (the WICKED) married wives, THEY (the WICKED) were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came and destroyed THEM (the WICKED) all.

...I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed,; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left.

Two women shall be grinding together; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left.

Two men shall be in the field; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left.

RAPTURE believers think THEY will be the ONE TAKEN. If you think YOU will be TAKEN, lets see what Jesus says will happen to you.
Luke 17:37, Jesus answers the disciples question of what happens to the TAKEN ONES. Jesus said, WHERE THERE IS A DEAD BODY, THERE THE VULTURES WILL GATHER.

2 Peter 2:5 (Peter speaking) (God) saved (kept safe) Noah...bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly (WICKED).

Matthew 13:24-30 The parable of the wheat and the tares. Gather together FIRST THE TARES. Jesus continues, The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they will gather OUT of His Kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity....

Luke 17:29,30 (Jesus speaking) ...(in) Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from Heaven and destroyed THEM ALL. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. THE WICKED were destroyed, once again.

Matthew 13:47-50 (Jesus speaking) Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a net that was cast into the sea and gathered of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but THREW THE BAD AWAY. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and SEVER THE WICKED from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire...

Once again the GOOD remain and the BAD are thrown away. THE WICKED TAKEN and destroyed "from among the just," who remain on the earth.

I Thessalonians 5:3 (Paul speaking) For when THEY (THE WICKED) shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction shall come upon THEM...and they shall not escape.

Matthew 24:21,22 and Mark 13:19,20 (Jesus speaking) For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved (survive); but for THE ELECT's sake whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.

How can there be THE ELECT during this time IF they went in THE RAPTURE?

ELECT is also mentioned in Luke 18:7; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; Titus 1:1

Proverbs 2:21, 22 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall REMAIN in it, but THE WICKED shall be cut off (taken/destroyed) from the earth and the transgressors shall be rooted OUT of it.

Psalm 145:20 The Lord preserveth ALL that love him; but ALL THE WICKED He will destroy.

Proverbs 10:30 The righteous shall NEVER be REMOVED;

Proverbs 11:31 The righteous shall be recompensed IN the (world) earth...

Psalm 101:8 I (God) will early (first) destroy THE WICKED of the land...

Psalm 119:119 All THE WICKED of the earth you discard (throw away) like dross.

Proverbs 25:4,5 Take AWAY the dross from the silver...Take AWAY THE WICKED from before the King...

Isaiah 5:24 and 29:5 The flame consumeth the chaff (WICKED).

Job 21:18 THEY (THE WICKED) are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth AWAY.

Job 38:13 (Speaking to God) ...take hold of the ends of the earth that THE WICKED might be shaken OUT of it.

Malachi 4:1 For behold the day cometh...and all that do WICKEDLY, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up...

Psalm 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land (earth) and dwell therein FOREVER.

Psalm 37:9-11 For evildoers (WICKED) shall be cut off (destroyed); but those that wait upon the Lord shall inherit the earth.

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger...and He shall destroy the sinners thereof OUT of it (the earth).

Psalm 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed OUT OF THE EARTH (world), and let the wicked be no more.

Psalm 52:5 God shall likewise destroy THEE (THE WICKED) forever; He shall take THEE AWAY, and pluck THEE OUT of thy dwelling place.

The above are just some of the Scriptures that make it CLEAR that the righteous STAY, and THE WICKED GO.
Ezekiel 9:4-6 and Revelation 9:3,4 talk about THE WICKED being destroyed in the midst of the RIGHTEOUS.

Was Job raptured out of his time of tribulation (testing)? NO


Was Joseph raptured out of the pit or prison? NO

Was Daniel raptured out of the lion's den? NO

Was King David raptured out of all his tribulation? NO

Exodus 7:18 through 12:30 records the Israelites were IN Egypt for all ten plagues of God's wrath.

Was Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego raptured out of the firery furnace? NO

Was Jesus or any of the Apostles raptured out of their persecution? NO

Was Paul raptured out of all his tribulations (2 Corithians 11:23-27)? NO

NO RAPTURE, JUST MUCH TRIBULATION
 

veteran

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ah. i see, now that you have clarified your point. however, i defer more in your enterpretation of the tribulation than your ideas on the rapture.


Yes, I did clarify it. I do not hold to the Pre-trib rapture theory at all. And it's simply because it is not Biblical, nor written anywhere in God's Holy Writ.

But the idea of HOW we are gathered to Christ Jesus is a different subject than WHEN we are gathered to Him. The Pre-trib rapture stance argues more about the WHEN than the HOW.

In other words, just the word 'rapture' is not enough to define how we are gathered to Christ Jesus, nor the when of His coming.
 

veteran

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i have noticed some animosity towards pre tribbers. (not that i care to argue the timing of the trib)
there was even someone teaching about it and he literally looked angry when refering to the pre trib idea.
what does this mean? what type of motives does someone have when they hold all this animosity??

I've actually experienced violent hatred from Pre-tribbers for just saying in their presence that the Pre-trib rapture doctrine is a falsehood, and not written in God's Word. One fellow got up with his fists raised at me.

A friend of mine's son who got down to Bible study for himself accidentally let the ministers at a Pre-trib Church he was attending know that he didn't believe it. The pastor, ministers, and elders of that Church surrounded the boy after one of their services, hounding him in trying to shame him back into their little fold. The boy's father told me he hasn't been back to that Church since.

Even my young son whom I showed which Scriptures in God's Word to read to understand about our Lord Jesus' second coming got into trouble when he used to go to a Christian school that was on the Pre-trib rapture doctrine. As a matter of fact, I asked the pastor over that school before signing my boy up if the school taught that Pre-trib rapture doctrine in the classroom, and that pastor lied and said no!
 

teamventure

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Can you please show me where the rapture is in scripture?

i already did in post #62

I've actually experienced violent hatred from Pre-tribbers for just saying in their presence that the Pre-trib rapture doctrine is a falsehood, and not written in God's Word. One fellow got up with his fists raised at me.

A friend of mine's son who got down to Bible study for himself accidentally let the ministers at a Pre-trib Church he was attending know that he didn't believe it. The pastor, ministers, and elders of that Church surrounded the boy after one of their services, hounding him in trying to shame him back into their little fold. The boy's father told me he hasn't been back to that Church since.

Even my young son whom I showed which Scriptures in God's Word to read to understand about our Lord Jesus' second coming got into trouble when he used to go to a Christian school that was on the Pre-trib rapture doctrine. As a matter of fact, I asked the pastor over that school before signing my boy up if the school taught that Pre-trib rapture doctrine in the classroom, and that pastor lied and said no!

that's why i hate arguing about the timing of the rapture.
that's why i say, if the rapture is the only thing people disagree on, then they have plenty in common.
 

rockytopva

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Scriptural support for the pre-trib rapture...


Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:44
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.- Matthew 25:13

And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. - Luke 17:26, 27

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. - Matthew 24:37,38,39,40,41

Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. - Luke 17:28,29,30

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - - Revelation 16:15

...Jesus Returns in Ordinary Times! ...

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; - 2 Thessalonians 2:3

According to 2 Thess 2:3 two things have got to occur before rapture time (Caught up, the Lords Return, Rapture... Whatever you want to call it)

1. The great falling away (as a result from the love grown cold... In the Laodicean Church age).
2. The revealing of the anti-Christ

When you see the anti-Christs appearing... Look up! For your redemption draweth nigh!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7rTb4BJQsg
 

TWC

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Not one of those passages says anything about a rapture taking place before the tribulation.
 

rockytopva

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In ordinary times... The people of the old world and of Sodom had destruction come upon them suddenly... Unlooked for... Take the scripture and what the Lord is saying in context...
 

veteran

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i already did in post #62



that's why i hate arguing about the timing of the rapture.
that's why i say, if the rapture is the only thing people disagree on, then they have plenty in common.


If the Pre-trib rapture idea was a clearly written doctrine from Scripture, obviously, there wouldn't be as much debate about the subject like there is. But when comparing it to what Christ Himself said in Matt.24 that His coming and the gathering is after the tribulation, clearly there's going to be argument with those who go directly against that Scripture. And it suggests those on the Pre-trib doctrine are not heeding the Scripture as written, but are heeding a doctrine of man instead.

Same thing with the order of Christ's return and our gathering per Apostle Paul in 2 Thess.2. The order Paul gave is clearly written, yet the Pre-trib doctrine is in direct opposition to that Scripture. So what should... those expect who choose to trust in a doctrine that goes against those Scriptures?

If I believed that Christ Jesus did not die on the cross, wouldn't you go against that idea as a Christian? So why should it be any different with a doctrine that goes against Scripture, and I mean Scripture that is written as a direct statement about the timing (like Matt.24:29).
 

teamventure

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veteran, first of all, just cause you say something goes against scripture doesn't mean it does.
secondly, i don't want to discuss the rapture anymore.
on another note, what order do you believe in where pre trib is in opposition to? what are you referring to there?
 

Israelsson

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Down here in Satan's kingdom (Earth)
But, is what they say about being "caught up" really what "caught up" means? If the scene painted by "Rapture"
teachings were true, then there is much difficulty because we find in scripture that other people who were "caught up"
remained on earth after the event. The Greek word for "caught up" is harpazo, and it is found 18 times in the New
Testament. From these we should get a good picture of what the word means.

The KJV translates the word, as
follows:

Catch....... ……1 time. Catch away.....2 times. Catcheth......3 times.
Catch Up…… 3 times. luck...............2 times. Pull...............1 time.
Take by force...3 times. Take................1 time. Pulling...........1 time.

From these words we can see that there is some sort of forceful or sudden transition from one state or place to another.
Of all of these verses where the word harpazo occurs, there are only four which could possibly be construed as having
anything to do with God's people leaving the earth. Although fourteen verses all agree that the word has nothing to do
with leaving the earth, we will look at the four verses, so the matter can be totally cleared up and that there are no
lingering doubts.

These verses are as follows:

1. Acts 8:39........................ About the Spirit of the Lord catching away Phillip after his speaking with
the Ethopian eunuch..
2. Cor. 12:2-4................... About Paul being caught up to the Third Heaven.
3. Rev. 12:5......................... About the 'child of the woman' being caught up unto God and His Throne.
4. Thess. 4:17.................. About the so-called "rapture" verses.


Acts 8:39. "The Spirit caught away Phillip, that the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way
rejoicing. But, Phillip was found at Azotus....."

Some seem to think that Phillip was zapped from one country to another after speaking with the Ethopian Eunuch. But,
it must be pointed out that Phillip started at Gaza in Palestine and was "found" at Azotus, also in Palestine, and really,
the two are so very close together! One thing for sure, he was not "caught away" from the earth because he was still
preaching on earth afterwards.


2 Cor. 12:2-4 "...such a one caught up to the third heaven".. ..... ..How that he was caught up into
paradise".

Before anything more is said, Paul was still on earth after this event; Yes, He was on earth telling the tale. But, where
was Paul "caught up" to? What is "the Third Heaven"? In scripture there are at least six heavens which may be
examined.

Heaven. Singular..without definite article.

Heavens. Plural....without definite article.

The Heaven. Singular..with the definite article.

The Heavens. Plural....with the definite article.

The Third Heaven. When Jesus returns.

The New Heaven. The fourth and last.


We have a popular conception that there are different
'heavens' which are stacked up vertically, like the air belt, the stratosphere, and above that, and that is all. "Third" in

'Third Heaven' is tritos in Greek which means the third in order in time sequence. In time sequence we have:

FIRST HEAVENS. Man sinned......God ceased to walk with man......ended with the flood.

SECOND HEAVEN. Present age.....sin continues.....Jesus redeems Israel......ends with fire.

THIRD HEAVEN. Jesus returns.....millenium.....sin and death continue until everything and the last enemy,
death, is placed under Jesus' feet. Then Jesus hands the Kingdom over to the Father.

FOURTH HEAVEN. God again tabernacles with man.........no more sin...........eternity.


If we consider 2 Peter 3:5-6, Peter talks about the 'heaven' which was before the flood as perishing. Since that 'heaven'
passed away, we have the present 'heaven', or sky above us. Prophecy tells us that the present 'heaven' will pass away
also, and that this will be replaced by a new heaven and a new earth-[Is.65:17, Is.66:22, 2 Peter 3:13]. In these verses,
the situation in the new heavens is very much on earth. The time is "the day when the Lord binds up the breach of His
people, and heals the stroke of their wounds"-[Isaiah 30:26]. When Jesus returns the earth will be renewed and will be
under the 'Third Heaven'.

The prophets tell us about the new "heaven" where the moon will shine as brightly as the sun, and that the light of the
sun will be seven-fold what it is now. This is the Third Heaven that Paul was caught up into. It is an event in time,
rather than in geography. Paul had a vision, or "an earnest" of his inheritance"-[Eph.1:14] He had a glimpse or a preview of what is to come in the next age when Jesus comes to take His Kingdom, on earth.

Paul was caught up into paradise; the Third Heaven will be paradise for all of us who are looking for His appearing. This is "our blessed
hope"! The "Rapture" is presented by Dispensationalists as being the "hope", but in scripture it is "His appearing".
Paul is not the only one recorded in scripture to have had such an experience. Peter, for instance tells of the similar
experience on the Mount of Transfiguration-[Matt. 17:1-9 and 2 Peter 1:17-18]. The resurrected Moses and Elijah were
present in this pre-view. The three disciples concerned did not depart from earth at this time, either!

In Revelation 4:1, the Apostle John records, "The first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me,
which said, 'Come up hither' and I will show you things that must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the Spirit, and
behold, a throne was set in heaven......". The point here is the the apostle was in the pneuma = "current of air", which is
translated as Spirit here. Although "come up" = "ascend" in this verse is not harpazo, the apostle was physically on
earth after the experience, because he too, also told the tale. Paul said he did not know whether his experience was in
the body or not, we do not know this either.....and neither will we try to guess.

{But, those with some understanding of the relationship between, energy, time and matter might have a clue because we read,
"there should be time no longer"-[Rev.10:6]-.}.


Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child who was to rule the nations with a rod of iron. And her
child was CAUGHT UP God and unto His throne”.

Few would find any problem in this verse about the ascension of Jesus after His resurrection, and this does not include
the "woman" [Israel] being also "caught up".


1 Thess 4:17 “Then we which are alive and remain, shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the
clouds to meet the Lord in the air”..

This is the key verse of the "Rapture" doctrine. We do not find any other verses like it in the Bible and so the popular
interpretation lacks the two or three scriptural witnesses as required to "be established" and to back it up. 'Types' cannot
do this. Before we look at the order of the whole passage in context, it would be helpful to look at some individual
words in this verse.

DESCEND.

Katabaino is found 138 times and is a common expression with the common meaning. It comes from basis which
means to walk on foot!

“SHOUT”.
A lot is made out about this word, but keleuma is found only here. It comes from keleuo [27 occurrences] which are
translated as “commanded” 25 times in the KJV.

“THE ARCHANGEL”.
Archaggelos simply means “the Chief Messenger”., and is used referring to Michael in Jude 1:9.

"ALIVE".
The word translated "alive" is zao in Greek. It is used both figuratively [e.g "man shall not live by bread alone"], and
literally [e.g. "To whom He showed Himself alive after his passion"]. The literal usage most commonly contains a
supernatural element such as being brought back to life after death. It is often used relating to lifestyle or manner of
life, such as enjoying God's blessing. Out of the 144 occurrences, there are very few verses that could be taken as
"alive" just meaning normal everyday life on earth -[i.e. it is not just not being physically dead].

The popular teachings are that "we" are caught away from normal physical life on earth to be forever with the Lord in
another place than earth. That place is said to be 'heaven' and we have already looked into that word and that the Third 5
Heaven is on earth. Paul tell us in 1 Cor. 15:51-52 that we shall all be changed at the last trump. [Note that the "trump"
is also part of the "rapture" verses]. "Changed" is allasso and is used in Heb.1:12 about the heaven and the earth also
being changed. The time of being changed is the same time as when the heavens and the earth are changed; that is, the
time of Jesus' return. It is the time of the Third Heaven. As the timing is given as "the last trump", the time of being
changed must follow the earlier six woes of tribulation when each of the angels have sounded their trumpets! -[Rev.8].
So, there could be no pre-tribulation "rapture" in the way it is most commonly presented.

“REMAIN".
"Perileipomai" is not the common word used for 'remain', [meno is the common word which has the meaning of staying
in a given place or state]. It means to be "left all about" or "to survive" or "to be left over". To survive, someone else
other than those who "remain" must have been taken already! We will be seeing that it is the "wicked" that are taken
out first.

"CLOUDS".
"Caught up together with them in the clouds" in our original text as translated, does not show in English that these
clouds [nephele] are different from the normal clouds [nephos]. The difference parallels the use of "anan" and "'ab" in
Hebrew. [There is no definite article with nephele]. "Nephele" according to lexicons refers to a specially shaped cloud
like that seen on the mount of transfiguration or the cloudy pillar that Israel had at the Red Sea. The following verses
show this.

Matt. 24:20 "...Son of Man coming in the CLOUDS of heaven".

Matt. 17:5 "...A bright CLOUD overshadowed them".

Acts 1:9 "...A CLOUD received Him out of their sight".

Rev. 11:12 "...And they ascended into heaven in a CLOUD".

Rev. 14:14-16 "...Sat on a CLOUD".

1 Cor 10:1 "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye be ignorant, how that OUR FATHERS were under

THE CLOUD, and that all passed throught the sea, and were baptised unto Moses in

THE CLOUD, and in the sea, and did all drink of that spiritual drink which was christ
[anointed].

It is not the scope here to talk about being baptised both in the cloud and in the sea. "Baptizo" means "to make fully
wet" or "to cover fully with a fluid". The cloud is fluid and the Children of Israel were baptized in the nephele. This
pillar of cloud gave light, and fire to God's people [Israel], but it gave darkness to their enemies. It is also associated
with "air", so we must look at "air" because it is mentioned in our text phrase, "meet the Lord in the air".

"AIR".
This word is "ruach" in Hebrew and in Greek it is "aer", and they are translated as "breath", "air", "wind" "spirit", etc.,
including "to blow", "to breathe [unconsciously]", and "to respire". It comes from a root meaning "to cover or
encompass"]. Now, the moving "air" makes "wind" [pnoe or pressure]. We read, "the wind bloweth where it listeth"-
[John 3:8]. When we consider all these elements, we can see a similarity with Pentecost -[Acts 2:1-3], where those
present were "baptised" in those elements. There was the sound [voice] of the wind and there was the fire [cloven
tougues of fire]. Then we read about them seeing visions. Although the cloud is not specifically mentioned at Pentecost,
there are elements of the Third Heaven experience that were present. They met the Lord in the "air" with the air in the
form of a rushing mighty wind. Yet, they remained on earth after it!

And whom did they "meet"? The "Lord" here [and in the "rapture" passage] is Kurios which is the word used as in "the
Lord Jesus". It is not Theos, the word used for "God". After the meeting the Lord "in the air" at Pentecost they were
changed people. "And they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus"-[Acts 4:13]. To be "ever with the
Lord" will make people changed people!
"MEET".

One popular idea is that Christians will ascend into "the sky" to meet Jesus, and then later return to earth with Him.
The word "apantesis" means "meet" just like it means today. But, what is the time when those who are "alive and
remain" have this meeting? What happens first? Let us look at the sequence as given in 1 Thess 4:13-18..

1.The Lord himself shall descend. -[First, and once only].

2.The shout. -[Keleuma, a unique word].

3.The voice of the archangel. -[Voice is 'sound'].

4.The trump of God. -[The last trump].

5.The dead in Christ arise. -[Resurrection].

The 'then' of verse 17 comes inbetween here, so next we have in sequence:

6. The 'catching up' together. -[The living plus the resurrected].


7. The meeting in the air and then being forever with the Lord. -[It does not say where..."in the air" is not a
place]. Even if any were to use "air" as "atmosphere", this is not outside of the air belt of earth.
 

TWC

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Dec 1, 2008
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In ordinary times... The people of the old world and of Sodom had destruction come upon them suddenly... Unlooked for... Take the scripture and what the Lord is saying in context...
Were the times "ordinary" for Noah? Were they "ordinary" for Lot?

Have you ever been somewhere right before a major hurricane was set to hit? Not normal times. Noah knew that it would be raining for 40 days and 40 nights because God told him ahead of time. Times were normal for the ones who ended up dying, but not for Noah.

Have you ever had company come over and people surround your house and try breaking down your door so they can have sex with your guests? This isn't normal. The times were ordinary for the people of Sodom, but not for Lot.