Timing of the abomination of desolation

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Spiritual Israelite

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Those asking questions do not dictate what a discourse will be about. He didn't need to answer the first question. He instead focused upon all the events of the endtimes surrounding the Great Tribulation.
So, you think He told them that the temple buildings would be destroyed but had no interest in giving them any details about it even after they asked about it? Really? That's complete nonsense.

It's also not even true. I can recognize symbolic language as well as literal language. YOU refuse to take into account the writing style and type of text being used in certain passages then you hypocritically criticize others.
It is true and you've made that clear repeatedly, but just keep denying it if you want. In one case you correctly identify text as being symbolic (the sword coming out of Christ's mouth) but then you inexplicably interpret the symbolic sword as somehow being literally used to physically kill people. I've asked you to explain exactly how that works (a SYMBOLIC sword being used to LITERALLY kill people) and you are apparently not willing to do so.
 

shilohsfoal

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I didn't say that, though. I believe Jesus talked about two different events in the Olivet Discourse. One relating to things that would occur locally in and around Jerusalem and one global event that is yet future which is the return of Christ at the end of the age.

Why not? The city was attacked and destroyed. It fits what Jesus prophesied in Luke 19:41-44 and Luke 21:20-24 (Matt 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20).

The NIV translates Zechariah 14:1 as "a day of the Lord". It's not talking about the same day of the Lord described in passages like 1 Thess 5:1-6 and 2 Peter 3:10-12. It doesn't describe the complete destruction of all unbelievers like the NT passages do. There are major problems with associating Zechariah 14 with the return of Christ. Not the least of which is that it would mean animal sacrifices would be reinstated at that time in that case (Zech 14:16-21).
There is only one day of the Lord mentioned in scripture. It never says days of the Lord. It's just o e day when the Lord comes.
 

shilohsfoal

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So, you think He told them that the temple buildings would be destroyed but had no interest in giving them any details about it even after they asked about it? Really? That's complete nonsense.

It is true and you've made that clear repeatedly, but just keep denying it if you want. In one case you correctly identify text as being symbolic (the sword coming out of Christ's mouth) but then you inexplicably interpret the symbolic sword as somehow being literally used to physically kill people. I've asked you to explain exactly how that works (a SYMBOLIC sword being used to LITERALLY kill people) and you are apparently not willing to do so.

The disciples asked Jesus about the end of the age and the time of his coming. That's what he processed to tell them about. The end of the age and his coming. That hasn't happened yet. You claim it did but it didn't.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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There is only one day of the Lord mentioned in scripture. It never says days of the Lord. It's just o e day when the Lord comes.
How does your interpretation of Zechariah 14 match up with what is described in 1 Thess 4:14-5:6 and 2 Peter 3:10-12? Where does Zechariah 14 indicate that the heavens and earth are burned up at Christ's return on the day of the Lord? Do you think animal sacrifices will be reinstated when Christ returns, which is what a literal, futuristic interpretation of Zechariah 14 would imply, based on Zechariah 14:16-21?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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The disciples asked Jesus about the end of the age and the time of his coming.
Yes, but they also asked Him about the timing of the destruction of the temple buildings which were standing at that time.

That's what he processed to tell them about. The end of the age and his coming. That hasn't happened yet. You claim it did but it didn't.
I did not claim that His coming and the end of the age has happened yet. You made false accusations against me in another thread and now you're doing it again. You seem to have very poor reading comprehension. My belief is that He talked both about a local event in and around Jerusalem which happened around 70 AD, but also a future global event, which relates to His coming at the end of the age.
 

shilohsfoal

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How does your interpretation of Zechariah 14 match up with what is described in 1 Thess 4:14-5:6 and 2 Peter 3:10-12? Where does Zechariah 14 indicate that the heavens and earth are burned up at Christ's return on the day of the Lord? Do you think animal sacrifices will be reinstated when Christ returns, which is what a literal, futuristic interpretation of Zechariah 14 would imply, based on Zechariah 14:16-21?

What zech 14 shows is those in Judea fleeing for the mountains which Jesus spoke of in the gospel. We know they are fleeing be suse of the abomination that causes desolation. I understand who's military will place it there and why. It's all completely logical. The abomination that causes desolation is an object invented for the purpose to cause desolation. It was invented to kill many people in a single stroke.
It's what causes the severe earthquake and causes the heavens to depart as a scroll being rolled together. It is placed in Jerusalem by the United States military on the day of the Lord.

Most people who tend to believe it took place in 167 bc or 70 AD don't even bother to pay attention to the rest of the chapter so they don't really know much about the events leading up to that day.
 

shilohsfoal

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Yes, but they also asked Him about the timing of the destruction of the temple buildings which were standing at that time.

I did not claim that His coming and the end of the age has happened yet. You made false accusations against me in another thread and now you're doing it again. You seem to have very poor reading comprehension. My belief is that He talked both about a local event in and around Jerusalem which happened around 70 AD, but also a future global event, which relates to His coming at the end of the age.

Jesus or Daniel would have to be wrong if the abomination that causes desolation was placed in 70 AD. I've yet to see a yone openly say which one they believe is wrong.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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What zech 14 shows is those in Judea fleeing for the mountains which Jesus spoke of in the gospel. We know they are fleeing be suse of the abomination that causes desolation. I understand who's military will place it there and why. It's all completely logical. The abomination that causes desolation is an object invented for the purpose to cause desolation. It was invented to kill many people in a single stroke.
It's what causes the severe earthquake and causes the heavens to depart as a scroll being rolled together. It is placed in Jerusalem by the United States military on the day of the Lord.

Most people who tend to believe it took place in 167 bc or 70 AD don't even bother to pay attention to the rest of the chapter so they don't really know much about the events leading up to that day.
I asked you how your interpretation of Zechariah 14 lines up with what is taught in passages like 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6 and 2 Peter 3:10-12? Can you please answer that question?

I also said that a literal, futuristic interpretation of Zechariah 14 would mean that animal sacrifices would be reinstated in the future, based on what it says in Zechariah 14:16-21. Is that what you believe will happen?
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Jesus or Daniel would have to be wrong if the abomination that causes desolation was placed in 70 AD.
Why is that? An abomination that causes the desolation and destruction of Jerusalem and the temple (the city and the sanctuary) is described in Daniel 9:26-27. And Jerusalem and the temple buildings were destroyed in 70 AD. Why would that make Jesus or Daniel wrong if what is described in Daniel 9:26-27 (particularly the destruction of the city and the sanctuary) occurred in 70 AD?
 
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Randy Kluth

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The abomination that causes desolation is an object invented for the purpose to cause desolation. It was invented to kill many people in a single stroke.

You are creating your own definition and then claiming your definition has biblical confirmation. I see no reason at all to believe in your definition.

An "abomination" is anything that commits sacrilege or represents sacrilege in a holy place. I can be a person or persons, or a thing or things.

Desolation is easy. It destroys, whether people killed or buildings destroyed. To confine the AoD to an objects that kills many at one time is not the definition, but only a single application. You can find in the Scriptures the use of "abominations" and "desolations" exactly as I've described. In this case, the Bible provides its own definition.

Titus 1.16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Eze 7.21I will give their wealth as plunder to foreigners
and as loot to the wicked of the earth,
who will defile it.
22 I will turn my face away from the people,
and robbers will desecrate the place I treasure.
They will enter it
and will defile it.

23 “‘Prepare chains!
For the land is full of bloodshed,
and the city is full of violence.
24 I will bring the most wicked of nations
to take possession of their houses.
I will put an end to the pride of the mighty,
and their sanctuaries will be desecrated.

Ezra 9.1 After these things had been done, the leaders came to me and said, “The people of Israel, including the priests and the Levites, have not kept themselves separate from the neighboring peoples with their detestable practices, like those of the Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Jebusites, Ammonites, Moabites, Egyptians and Amorites. 2 They have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons, and have mingled the holy race with the peoples around them. And the leaders and officials have led the way in this unfaithfulness.”

3 When I heard this, I tore my tunic and cloak, pulled hair from my head and beard and sat down appalled. 4 Then everyone who trembled at the words of the God of Israel gathered around me because of this unfaithfulness of the exiles. And I sat there appalled until the evening sacrifice.

5 Then, at the evening sacrifice, I rose from my self-abasement, with my tunic and cloak torn, and fell on my knees with my hands spread out to the Lord my God 6 and prayed:

“I am too ashamed and disgraced, my God, to lift up my face to you, because our sins are higher than our heads and our guilt has reached to the heavens. 7 From the days of our ancestors until now, our guilt has been great. Because of our sins, we and our kings and our priests have been subjected to the sword and captivity, to pillage and humiliation at the hand of foreign kings, as it is today.

8 “But now, for a brief moment, the Lord our God has been gracious in leaving us a remnant and giving us a firm place in his sanctuary, and so our God gives light to our eyes and a little relief in our bondage. 9 Though we are slaves, our God has not forsaken us in our bondage. He has shown us kindness in the sight of the kings of Persia: He has granted us new life to rebuild the house of our God and repair its ruins, and he has given us a wall of protection in Judah and Jerusalem.

10 “But now, our God, what can we say after this? For we have forsaken the commands 11 you gave through your servants the prophets when you said: ‘The land you are entering to possess is a land polluted by the corruption of its peoples. By their detestable practices they have filled it with their impurity from one end to the other. 12 Therefore, do not give your daughters in marriage to their sons or take their daughters for your sons. Do not seek a treaty of friendship with them at any time, that you may be strong and eat the good things of the land and leave it to your children as an everlasting inheritance.’

13 “What has happened to us is a result of our evil deeds and our great guilt, and yet, our God, you have punished us less than our sins deserved and have given us a remnant like this. 14 Shall we then break your commands again and intermarry with the peoples who commit such detestable practices? Would you not be angry enough with us to destroy us, leaving us no remnant or survivor? 15 Lord, the God of Israel, you are righteous! We are left this day as a remnant. Here we are before you in our guilt, though because of it not one of us can stand in your presence.”



 
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covenantee

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The abomination that causes desolation is an object invented for the purpose to cause desolation. It was invented to kill many people in a single stroke.
It's what causes the severe earthquake and causes the heavens to depart as a scroll being rolled together. It is placed in Jerusalem by the United States military on the day of the Lord.

Not according to Luke 21:20.

It was the Roman armies.
 

shilohsfoal

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You are creating your own definition and then claiming your definition has biblical confirmation. I see no reason at all to believe in your definition.

An "abomination" is anything that commits sacrilege or represents sacrilege in a holy place. I can be a person or persons, or a thing or things.

Desolation is easy. It destroys, whether people killed or buildings destroyed. To confine the AoD to an objects that kills many at one time is not the definition, but only a single application. You can find in the Scriptures the use of "abominations" and "desolations" exactly as I've described. In this case, the Bible provides its own definition.

Titus 1.16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Yes, it causes desolation.
The Romans didn't cause desolation. They just moved in and evicted the occupants of an area and occupied it themselves.
The house was not desolate then. 3.5 days after the beast attacks Jerusalem and kills the armed forces of the king of the north stationed there, then you will see what desolation is.
 

Randy Kluth

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Yes, it causes desolation.
The Romans didn't cause desolation. They just moved in and evicted the occupants of an area and occupied it themselves.
The house was not desolate then. 3.5 days after the beast attacks Jerusalem and kills the armed forces of the king of the north stationed there, then you will see what desolation is.

Go back and read my post in #770. I unfortunately post my comments quickly, and sometimes have to go back and edit, or add, as the case may be. It just works out that way better for me due to circumstances during the day that disrupt my train of thought.

The point is, "abominations," however the word is translated in Hebrew or Greek, refers to someone or something that commits sacrilege. It profanes a sacred location.

And yes, it can cause desolation, as well. An abominable pagan army can invade a sacred city and commit desolation by killing the holy people there, its priests, and by destroying the infrastructure used there for worship.

Clearly, the abominable pagan Roman army committed desolation at Jerusalem when they killed thousands of Jews and priests, and by destroying the temple. Like the passage I quoted, they were an "abomination of desolation."

Eze 7.21I will give their wealth as plunder to foreigners
and as loot to the wicked of the earth,
who will defile it.
22 I will turn my face away from the people,
and robbers will desecrate the place I treasure.
They will enter it
and will defile it.

23 “‘Prepare chains!
For the land is full of bloodshed,
and the city is full of violence.
24 I will bring the most wicked of nations
to take possession of their houses.
I will put an end to the pride of the mighty,
and their sanctuaries will be desecrated.
 

Jay Ross

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Brother, why are you ignoring Luke 21:20?

There is a three-way corroboration between Matthew 24:15, Daniel 9:26-27, and Luke 21:20 which unmistakably identifies and confirms the AoD of 70 AD as the Roman armies.

It is therefore a different AoD from Daniel 12:9-13.

Hence your confusion.

Hello, hello, hello, the 70 AD destruction of the temple is associated with the Little Horn being given an army to Trample God's Sanctuary and His earthly Hosts for a period of 2,300 years.

The Little Horn is the prince that is to come with his people/army and it is the Little Horn that destroys Jerusalem and the temple until the end of the war in Heaven when the Heavenly hosts will be judged in Heaven and the kings of the earth are judged on the earth in our near future at Armageddon and they are gathered together and imprisoned in a pit for many days to await the time of their punishment. Isaiah 24:21-22, Daniel 9:26b, Daniel 8:8-27.

The 2,300 years of trampling the sanctuary and God's hosts began around 250 BC and will continue until the end of this present age when the Kings of the Earth will gather in Israel at Armageddon to be judged by God for their trampling of God's Sanctuary and His earthly hosts, after which time, the God of Heaven will gather His earthly hosts, i.e. Israel, to himself, where they are scattered throughout the whole earth, and he will plant them in a fertile field to send down roots into God's earth to gain nourishment from God as He teaches them about the Kingdom of God and His Glory and Purposes on the religion of Israel, i.e. the mountain of Israel, which comes down out of heaven as the foundation stone of His religion and grows to become the largest mountain in all of the earth to dwarf the seven hills, i.e. the seven religions of Satan, that the Dragon, i.e. Satan, is draped over.

I am sorry covenantee but I am not confused in my understanding of God's purposes for this world.

That unfortunately is your plight.
 

covenantee

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Hello, hello, hello, the 70 AD destruction of the temple is associated with the Little Horn being given an army to Trample God's Sanctuary and His earthly Hosts for a period of 2,300 years.

The Little Horn is the prince that is to come with his people/army and it is the Little Horn that destroys Jerusalem and the temple until the end of the war in Heaven when the Heavenly hosts will be judged in Heaven and the kings of the earth are judged on the earth in our near future at Armageddon and they are gathered together and imprisoned in a pit for many days to await the time of their punishment. Isaiah 24:21-22, Daniel 9:26b, Daniel 8:8-27.

The 2,300 years of trampling the sanctuary and God's hosts began around 250 BC and will continue until the end of this present age when the Kings of the Earth will gather in Israel at Armageddon to be judged by God for their trampling of God's Sanctuary and His earthly hosts, after which time, the God of Heaven will gather His earthly hosts, i.e. Israel, to himself, where they are scattered throughout the whole earth, and he will plant them in a fertile field to send down roots into God's earth to gain nourishment from God as He teaches them about the Kingdom of God and His Glory and Purposes on the religion of Israel, i.e. the mountain of Israel, which comes down out of heaven as the foundation stone of His religion and grows to become the largest mountain in all of the earth to dwarf the seven hills, i.e. the seven religions of Satan, that the Dragon, i.e. Satan, is draped over.

I am sorry covenantee but I am not confused in my understanding of God's purposes for this world.

That unfortunately is your plight.
You still didn't answer my simple question.

Why are you ignoring Luke 21:20?
 

shilohsfoal

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I believe what Luke believed.

Why don't you believe what Luke believed?

I believe what Daniel and Jesus taught about it.
The armed forces of the north will first, abolish the daily sacrifice and second, place the abomination that causes desolation.
According to both Daniel and Jesus it will be a time of great distress, the likes of which have never been seen since there was a nation or shall ever be. Daniel writes at that time, his people will be delivered, all that are found written, and many who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,some to everlasting life and others to shall and contempt.

I simply don't believe a that have been written has risen from the dead yet. I believe that takes place on the day of the Lord. Not in 70 AD.