All are under sin

That's a good quote.

I would add that we are so concentrated on salvation, we forget that Christ's kingdom is actually about glory.

Prentis said:

That's a good quote.

I would add that we are so concentrated on salvation, we forget that Christ's kingdom is actually about glory.

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Yes! It's all about His glory. God wants to glorify Himself, and He wants us to participate with Him!

Amen!

Obedience for the sake of his glory, and empowerment for the sake of his works!

Prentis said:

What gives him more glory than a man perfectly comformed to him? Isn't Christ the one who gave glory to God more than any other? We are just vessels, men know this. They are incapable of doing what Christ calls us to, as we are in our own power. If we walk in his power, and testify to it, they will glorify him because they will understand it is his power in us.

I want to be like my master, that is all. I want to run my race. I want to attain him.

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But the wonder is, we already have Him! Do we really need to 'attain' Him, reach His level of earthly perfection? He tells us to walk with Him, to renew ourselves daily in Him, and through the Spirit seek truth and righteousness, but it is a daily process. I think that the older, wiser and more 'Christlike' we become, the more we will realise that perfection in this life, in this body, will never be 'attainable'. The bible tells us we will only be perfect, as He is perfect, when we stand before Him, receiving our new bodies. We are to continue the sanctifying process until, finally, we are perfect...in glorification. Seeking to be glorified before our time, is not what scripture teaches.
'Being' in Christ, 'renewing ourselves' in Christ...all this speaks to the relationship we have with Him. It's not about 'channelling His power to achiever our own perfection'...it's about growing more like Him due to time spent loving Him, getting to know Him, following Him...obeying Him, as Jake (or Tozer!) said! That is the wonder of redemption...not just that Christ's life shines through us, it's that because of Him, a sinful, lost soul can desire to be like Him and actually grow towards Him!

I agree we are not to do it in our own strength, and to allow it to happen in God's time, but in the meanwhile we work out our salvation in fear and trembling, we seek...

If we are alive in the spirit, let us also walk in the spirit.

This is a perfect example; we are made alive in the spirit, yes, we have received that. Then we must walk in the spirit. We must walk as he walked.

We must follow the narrow path, run the race. Paul says 'not as though I had already attained, but I press on to the mark of the prize of the high calling in Christ Jesus'. Had Paul not been born again yet? He had. Being born again is only the first step, entering the gate. It brings us into the reality of the kingdom, where we have a whole journey ahead of us.

We have received the seed, it must be brought to fruitfulness.

Rach said:

But the wonder is, we already have Him! Do we really need to 'attain' Him, reach His level of earthly perfection? He tells us to walk with Him, to renew ourselves daily in Him, and through the Spirit seek truth and righteousness, but it is a daily process. I think that the older, wiser and more 'Christlike' we become, the more we will realise that perfection in this life, in this body, will never be 'attainable'. The bible tells us we will only be perfect, as He is perfect, when we stand before Him, receiving our new bodies. We are to continue the sanctifying process until, finally, we are perfect...in glorification. Seeking to be glorified before our time, is not what scripture teaches.
'Being' in Christ, 'renewing ourselves' in Christ...all this speaks to the relationship we have with Him. It's not about 'channelling His power to achiever our own perfection'...it's about growing more like Him due to time spent loving Him, getting to know Him, following Him...obeying Him, as Jake (or Tozer!) said! That is the wonder of redemption...not just that Christ's life shines through us, it's that because of Him, a sinful, lost soul can desire to be like Him and actually grow towards Him!

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It says His mercies are new every morning, not that we are renewing ourselves in Him daily. We are dying to ourselves, so that He may live in us, we decrease, He increases, it's not about ourselves, it's about Him.

The Bible says to be perfect as He is perfect, be holy as He is holy, we are to walk as He walked. Our lives are hidden in Him, so that we might live His life.

Yes. When it says 'it is no longer I who lives, but Christ who lives in me', it not meant metaphorically.

Also, Christ had a body just like ours. We shouldn't forget the implications of that! If he was able to wak perfectly, and has given us the same nature by the new creation... We can be as he is! By his power, and his work.

It says Christ had a body just like ours. He was born of a woman.

We have been given the same nature, that is the new creation!

Do you know the concept of 'already, not yet'? That Jesus came, bringing the Kingdom of God to earth, but it's full consummation is not until the end of this age.
The same applies to us. With our 'new birth in Christ' we are given the Holy Spirit, and the desire to follow good, not evil. But we cannot bring the perfection of Christ to a full consummation into these sinful bodies. If it were even remotely possible, Paul wouldn't have accounted himself as the 'chief of sinners' just before his death. You say you seek this perfection because it will give glory to God...but how can that be when God tells us that perfection will only come in our new bodies in the new earth? How can that be when Jesus asks of us to share with the lost, how we ourselves are so weak...that it is only in Jesus that we are saved....His righteousness made perfect in our weakness.
And I'm sorry, but I think you are just blatantly wrong in your "it's not metaphorical". Remember when Jesus said:

But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer;
(John 16:6; John 16:7-10 ESV)

Jesus returned to the Father, in order that we might have the Holy Spirit. And yes, the Holy Spirit is a member of the Trinity, but He is not Jesus. He helps us remember everything Jesus taught:

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
(John 14:26 ESV)

By 'having Jesus in us'...by 'putting Him on' like clothing, it means that we draw Christ and all that He taught into us...not Christ Himself. Remember the 'amour of God'? All the things that Jesus taught us and did for us, we use, with the Spirit's help, to live our lives for Him.

I am very much afraid for you Prentis. You are taking some secondary passages and turning them into doctrines that scripture just doesn't teach, and the more you expand them, the more I feel concern. You give the right answers "for Gods' glory", "for love", "for Jesus"...but then what you are actually teaching and espousing is not what the bible or Jesus teach. Salvation is by grace alone...not through anything that we do. Salvation is assured because it rests completely on Jesus, and we are told that He is faithful while we are faithless. We are not going to be perfect in this life, in these bodies...nothing in scripture leads us to think this, in fact, the opposite. If we are to truly 'die to ourselves' then the last thing we should be seeking is our own perfection and glory. And despite what you say, working towards our own perfection is just that. We are new creations, but our old nature and Satan will always fight us, and in striving for perfection we will only fall into pride. I really pray that you will truly see these things, for they are so important.

God does not guarantee us a salvation that is ours no matter what we do.

This is the love of God, that you obey his commands.

We are to follow after Christ, and if our being is in him, we will fulfill the law. We must abide, and we must endure.

Prentis said:

I believe that if a man give himself over completely and fully to Christ, he can receive faith to move mountains and walk in perfect communion with the Father. It is nothing of his power, but the power of Christ in him. Of course, because our character needs refining, man falls from this. But when we are filled with all the fullness of the Spirit, we share the full ministry of Christ and walk just like him.

I believe we can attain.

The specifis? Don't know. I believe Christ can overcome fully in us.

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Amen Prentis

RichardBurger said:

All are under sin:

It was asked by someone “would God ask us to do what we couldn’t do?“

The answer is yes, He asked the Jews to keep the Law of Moses. However, when they, the Jews, killed their Messiah (Jesus) He concluded that no man could keep the Law of Moses and He had another plan to save sinful men, a plan to shed the blood of His righteous Son on the cross to pay for the sins of mankind.

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Are you saying that God did not know that human beings were incapable of saving themselves by keeping a set of rules? Because He did knew. God simply for our sake wanted to prove that man's nature is incapable of delivering itself from sin. Its like knowing that a warped measuring stick cannot make a straight line.

God knew the Israelites were not capable of obeying Him.

Deuteronomy 5:29 (BBE)
[sup]29 [/sup]If only they had such a heart in them at all times, so that they might go in fear of me and keep my orders and that it might be well for them and for their children for ever!

Long before Israel or even Abraham existed God expressed that He was going to send us a Savior (the He and the His in verse 15 of Genesis 3 is referring to Jesus) to save man from sin and Satan.


Genesis 3:14-15 (ASV)
[sup]14 [/sup]And Jehovah God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
[sup]15 [/sup]and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Man's (human being) nature became corrupt because of sin. Therefore, human nature could not and cannot save itself or make itself righteous. God's plan for human beings has not changed from the time God made Adam and Eve.......God's purpose for making human beings is tantamount in His mind.....we are the most important of anything that God has ever done.....now and forever.....we are His prized creation because we are His real children.....we came from God.....all human being has something from God in them......His breath/spirit.

Genesis 2:7 (BBE)
[sup]7 [/sup]And the Lord God made man from the dust of the earth, breathing into him the breath of life: and man became a living soul.

God imparted something of Himself in man (the breath of life/spirit) that He never did with animals or even angels. We are destined for greatness the likes of which is beyond our imagination, and to which none of angles in Heaven is like.

God's plan is right on time and on track and He is determined to accomplished in us what He has determined before He created time and space. All who has ever lived and have died in ignorance will one day be resurrected and have their mind open to His truth....the Earth will one day be full of the knowledge of God as the ocean of the sea.

Isaiah 11:9 (ASV)
[sup]9 [/sup]They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea.

The whole creation was finished before it was put in motion. Every hair and feather that has fallen to the ground was written before it happened. Nothing has ever been out of place or off course.

I will keep my first comment short and contained to one thing only until I have opportunity to ponder more of this thread.

But I noticed at the onset of this thread that the word "simplicity" found at 2 Corinthians 11:3 was applied as though it means "simple", as in "what is going on in Christ is not complicated". And it seems that idea is carried to the further comments. The word "simplicity" as used in the context of 2 Corinthians 11:3 does not mean that.

It means "singleness of mind" as in having one mind on the subject rather than having multiple opinions on the subject. Paul is basically saying, "Rather than each of us having our own opinion as to who Jesus is let us have one opinion of who he is and that thus will keep it uncomplicated."

This counsel is like that where we are told to be of one mind. It has nothing to do with the simplicity of what is going on in Chrsit but is about having a singleness of mind as to who Jesus is.

It is error to stretch its use beyond the contextual usage there at 2 Corinthians 11:3. That is how misleading ideas begin to develope.

Christ came first and then man was created to save.

Colossians 1
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

[sup]16[/sup] as also in all [Paul's] epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
Paul is in harmony with the rest of scriptures, but he speaks of the new creation. The new creation is not their to make us Pharisees and hide our sins behind Jesus, it is their to truly impute us his righteousness, which, if we walk faithfully, means we will walk in that righteousness, and be fruitful as Paul tells us.

Colossians 1:10
that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;
If one walks in the Spirit he does not fulfil the lusts of the flesh, as Paul says. We fool ourselves when we think there is another Gospel, of a wide and easy way. God is the same, and he requires fruit according to the measure of grace he has given us.

Prentis,

Did you ever consider what it may have meant that Jesus was draped with a scarlet robe shortly before they crucified him? Matthew 27: 28

The Bible in Basic English words 1 Peter 2:16 this way, "As those who are free, not using your free position as a cover for wrongdoing, but living as the servants of God;" The ASV uses the word "wickedness" and the KJV the word "maliciousness".

We are to wash our robes and make them white in the blood of the lamb. Do we then preach a permissive theology that allows us to become as the white-washed graves full of dead men's bones like the Pharisees?
If we think that Christ covers our sins in a fashion so as to hide them, is that not failing to wash our robes in the blood? Washing is not for the purpose of covering over. Washing is for the purpose of cleansing, doing away with the filth of the flesh.

I fear that many have accepted the grace of God in vain. I find the contrast to their taunting Jesus by placing a robe the color of sin upon him as a sinless man to be quite interesting compared to this new ttheology which seeks to put a white robe over the sinful flesh.

I was actually wondering about it the other day when I was looking at the parable of the man with the filthy garment.

Interesting thoughts, Vengle.