Fun thread....Did you know......(finish the sentence)

Sabertooth said:

No, my son in college in Milwaukee [WI] attends a Korean church/outreach and has a girlfriend from there.

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@Sabertooth Well, anyway this sure is a great way for him to learn, anyway...

(Funny how it works... )

APAK said:

Copy that...I miscued then...

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I think it might not be wise to think that God would not give the ability to John to pen the book of Revelations at any age. It is also possible that John had someone else actually do the writing as he quoted it to him. Paul did this. The fact is that the book of Revelations is Revelation from God and could have been revealed at any time and it wouldn't make a difference. God can tell you the future today or he can wait and tell you the future in 10 years from now it's still in the future.

TEXBOW said:

I think it might not be wise to think that God would not give the ability to John to pen the book of Revelations at any age. It is also possible that John had someone else actually do the writing as he quoted it to him. Paul did this. The fact is that the book of Revelations is Revelation from God and could have been revealed at any time and it wouldn't make a difference. God can tell you the future today or he can wait and tell you the future in 10 years from now it's still in the future.

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Texbow (bowhunter from East Texas I presume) hello...I used to have some land in Leon County, Centerville area....a little North of you...

There are two main factors for my revisionist theory and of others 1. the date officially accepted in based actually on a conjecture, a flimsy opinion, not a real fact, of a later Roman dictator that exiled rebels and slaves to Islands and other locations, more frequently that Nero did, and 2., All the rest of the disciples and followers of Christ at that time endured Tribulation in the same time period under Nero, except, because of this 'opinion,' John..
.....and third, John would have been dead from natural causes, way before 95 AD.

APAK said:

Texbow (bowhunter from East Texas I presume) hello...I used to have some land in Leon County, Centerville area....a little North of you...

There are two main factors for my revisionist theory and of others 1. the date officially accepted in based actually on a conjecture, a flimsy opinion, not a real fact, of a later Roman dictator that exiled rebels and slaves to Islands and other locations, more frequently that Nero did, and 2., All the rest of the disciples and followers of Christ at that time endured Tribulation in the same time period under Nero, except, because of this 'opinion,' John..
.....and third, John would have been dead from natural causes, way before 95 AD.

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Probable logic. I assume you're referencing the early writings of Irenaeus as conjecture. We have obviously no exact date given in the scriptures. In my opinion minus that we must look outside of scripture or historical validations compared to scripture. I see no reason to dispute Irenaeus the Greek Bishop's writings. It also makes sense that John was released from exile when Domitian died in 96 AD. Emperor Nerva succeeded Domitian for a short time before his own death but before his death, he ended Christian persecution releasing Christians in captivity. His son Trajan was not as kind as his father but John would have been back in Ephesus by then.
The other thing that I consider is in Revelation 2 concerning the Church of Ephesus. God rebuked the Church for the loss of its first love. This does not sync with Paul's writting around AD 60 when Paul in Ephesians 1 opens with "To the saints who are in Ephesus and faithful in Christ Jesus" Paul planted the Church of Ephesus sometime in the early to mid 50 AD so his epistle recognizing they are faithful in Christ Jesus in 60 AD seems to suggest that Revelation 2 is sometime much later after Paul has been long gone. The planting of the Church, the Ephesians epistle, and Revelation 2 only make sense if Revelation 2 was sometime after Paul was gone.

Another thing is that Paul nor the other Apostles ever referenced the book of Revelation in their writings. The book of Revelation would certainly be a major topic in that period if known. The evidence points to Revelation being penned after the other books and epistles had been written. 1st 2nd 3rd John is estimated to be written at or after 90 AD. Jude at 68-70 AD. 1st and 2nd Peter 64-68 AD. It certainly seems to me that Revelation had to be written from 70 AD to 95 AD and given the writings of Irenaeus I'm going with 90-96 AD shortly after John had penned his 1st, 2nd, and 3rd letters.

It is also worthy to note that all the Emperors after Nero persecuted Christians until the death of Domitian in 96 AD. It is unlikely that any Emperor before Nerva would release John.

TEXBOW said:

Probable logic. I assume you're referencing the early writings of Irenaeus as conjecture. We have obviously no exact date given in the scriptures. In my opinion minus that we must look outside of scripture or historical validations compared to scripture. I see no reason to dispute Irenaeus the Greek Bishop's writings. It also makes sense that John was released from exile when Domitian died in 96 AD. Emperor Nerva succeeded Domitian for a short time before his own death but before his death, he ended Christian persecution releasing Christians in captivity. His son Trajan was not as kind as his father but John would have been back in Ephesus by then.
The other thing that I consider is in Revelation 2 concerning the Church of Ephesus. God rebuked the Church for the loss of its first love. This does not sync with Paul's writting around AD 60 when Paul in Ephesians 1 opens with "To the saints who are in Ephesus and faithful in Christ Jesus" Paul planted the Church of Ephesus sometime in the early to mid 50 AD so his epistle recognizing they are faithful in Christ Jesus in 60 AD seems to suggest that Revelation 2 is sometime much later after Paul has been long gone. The planting of the Church, the Ephesians epistle, and Revelation 2 only make sense if Revelation 2 was sometime after Paul was gone.

Another thing is that Paul nor the other Apostles ever referenced the book of Revelation in their writings. The book of Revelation would certainly be a major topic in that period if known. The evidence points to Revelation being penned after the other books and epistles had been written. 1st 2nd 3rd John is estimated to be written at or after 90 AD. Jude at 68-70 AD. 1st and 2nd Peter 64-68 AD. It certainly seems to me that Revelation had to be written from 70 AD to 95 AD and given the writings of Irenaeus I'm going with 90-96 AD shortly after John had penned his 1st, 2nd, and 3rd letters.

It is also worthy to note that all the Emperors after Nero persecuted Christians until the death of Domitian in 96 AD. It is unlikely that any Emperor before Nerva would release John.

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If you want a useful reply of any substance you will have to give me time to think on what you have said here. It seems you have had your response already prepared, or in part at least, ready to go.......I'll be back later TB....

APAK said:

If you want a useful reply of any substance you will have to give me time to think on what you have said here. It seems you have had your response already prepared, or in part at least, ready to go.......I'll be back later TB....

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No. I've studied this timeline issue before so it was fairly easy to pull together my view. One of the things I enjoy is taking a subject and doing a deep dive in studying it. I keep my notes in a study binder and reference back when I have a senior moment.

TEXBOW said:

No. I've studied this timeline issue before so it was fairly easy to pull together my view. One of the things I enjoy is taking a subject and doing a deep dive in studying it. I keep my notes in a study binder and reference back when I have a senior moment.

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Cool, its great to collect, log and refine over time...let me just answer the first part TB. It is enough for me right now. Here are my own words and some useful historical quotes mixed, to make my story.

The only source for John, one of the apostles, writing the Book of Revelation around 95-96 AD, comes from Eusebius Pamphilus, Bishop of Cesarea, who quoted Bishop Irenaues, who lived from 130 AD to 202 AD. It was given to us 2nd hand. This is not reliable evidence and then there is good reason to dispute it.

And then who did Bishop Irenaues really refer to Domitian or Domitius Nero? And he said....in the Syriac versions that the Book of Revelation quote.."The Revelation which was made by God to John the evangelist in the island of Patmos, into which he was thrown by Nero Caesar..." Why would he say Nero Caesar?

Here are some actual words of Eusebius:

"In this persecution [of Christians under Domitian], it is handed down by tradition, that the apostle and evangelist John, who was yet living, in consequence of his testimony to the divine word, was condemned to dwell on the island of Patmos. Irenaeus, indeed, in his fifth book against the heresies, ...speaks in the following manner respecting him: 'If, however, it were necessary to proclaim [the name of the Anti-Christ (Nero)], ... it would have been declared by him who saw the revelation, for it is not long since it was seen, but almost in our own generation, at the close of Domitian's reign." (Eusebius, III, XVII)

And then Irenaues did not speak from firsthand experience either. He heard what he wrote and said from Polycarp.

So we really have this information handed down to us 3rd hand....

Notice in the above writings the phrase, "...it is not long since it was seen..."

QUITE ambiguous.

The word "it" in the Greek could refer to the visions John saw, the book he wrote, or John himself. He could have meant, "John, who saw the revelation, was seen," or he could have meant, "John experienced the visions," or thirdly, that "the revelation document that John wrote was seen." And even if he was talking about the book of Revelation being seen at that time, this does not mandate that the book to have been written then.

--------------I can add more if you wish. I just cannot get past 1st base here... the ORIGINAL source, is it reliable?-------------

@TEXBOW I do want to answer you more completely; it's only fair, so let me move this discussion to another thread if you do not mind....I bet H2S may not want it to continue in her thread.....I should not have started it in here. I will send you another post then in another thread....

Did you know that the country of Turkey is changing its spelling to Türkiye?
That reminded me of THIS song about these compulsive name-changers...!

Sabertooth said:

Did you know that the country of Turkey is changing its spelling to Türkiye?
That reminded me of THIS song about these compulsive name-changers...!

Istanbul (Not Constantinople), The Four Lads (1953)

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I remember that song! I haven't heard it (even on the oldies' station) in about half a century.

Did you know..........
Human children don't get kneecaps until they are around 3 yrs old?

Did you know..........
That a Mantis Shrimp can punch with the force of a 22 caliber bullet ?
It's so fast the punch can't be seen by the human eye.

Did you know.................... that Betty White was older than sliced bread before her passing?
Sliced bread hit the market on July 7,1928. Betty was born Jan.17,1922.

Seeing we're talking about jokes, did you know I am never wrong?

Taken said:

Men CHANGE NAMES:...

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The gag was
These people are always changing their names...!

Did you know.................
The 100 folds in a chef's hat represent a 100 ways to cook an egg, this gauges a chef's level of expertise.

Did you know.................
The longest wedding veil was longer than 63 football fields?..... that's nearly 23,000 ft !