Hi Prentis,
My apologies for not getting back to you straight away...I have been babysitting a liitle man while his mom has been unwell for the past week. I have to be diligent and keep an eye out otherwise my house could be turned up side down in minutes...lol! ^_^
Thank you for pursuing this particular subject...as someone has said already, because this is a salvation issue, it must be addressed correctly.
Thank you also for not just accepting what others say...and challenging their positions on this...we grow and learn by testing what others believe which in turn puts our own theories into the spot-light.
I do not take on-board what others tell me if it is a new concept to me either, rather I test it out for myself through the word. I will also like you to check out what I say through the word, If you are in any doubt about what I say. If in the end, we find ourselves in a position of a stale-mate...we will agree to disagree on this matter...
Here's the thing though, it says of the unfaithful servant that he is bound hand and foot, and cast out. It says we can be cut off.
This would have been so much easier dear brother if you had quoted where your scriptures are found so that I know what verses you are talking about..however, I believe that you may be referring to the parable of the talents here...
The Parable of the Talents
14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Our original discussion is about salvation...note in the parable of the talents that each person was given a certain amount of talents and those talents were multiplied. The person with the least talent however, did not multipy his talent and was cast into the outer darkness.
When a man is saved...he is saved from the penalty of sin, which is death. Salvation is based on that man's confession and belief. All of this is by faith.
The parable of the talents is not talking about salvation because salvation is not given in measurements. The person either believes what Jesus has done for them on the cross and receives that free gift of salvation or they do not.
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That man might be saved from destruction, but he lives eternally in shame. It is not a thing to take lightly then. Why would Paul advise us to 'work out your salvation in fear and trembling'?
No-one has taken salvation lightly my dear...Let's take a look at
Philippians 2: The scripture that you have quoted here... :huh:
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.
Paul says "work out our own salvation"....but he does not say that we need to work to keep it...the bible says:
Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
Ephesians 1
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
1 Thessalonians 5:8-10
8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 11
[sup]29[/sup] For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
We know that we have been saved by grace through faith
Ephesians 2:8...so what is Paul actually talking about here....
Hebrews 9
24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Salvation is the beginning of our walk with Jesus by faith. The book of Hebrews, says that he will come again to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. I believe that Paul is speaking with the end of our hope in Jesus, in mind..."Eternal Life"
When Jesus comes again, whether we are alive or sleep [
1 Thessalonians 5:8-10].
Salvation is the beginning and it is free. It is neither earned nor can we keep it through striving...we keep it by believing and recieving by faith...but this is not the end of our hope here on this earth...it continues on-ward until Jesus comes again. The next part of the salvation process is getting your life right with God. We do this with the help of the Holy Spirit. This part of our salvation is the sanctification part where we are helped by the HS. The last part of our salvation is when Jesus comes again "to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him" as Hebrews 9 states...
Paul says in Philippians 3: 12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.
He speaks again of not attaining perfection quite yet, but presses on toward the upward call in Jesus...the end result of our hope...which is salvation in it's fullness
[Hebrews 9:28]
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I find it baffling that all those scriptures are simply taken and downplayed as though it really wasn't that bad or important. The new testament is so full of warnings, that we must bear fruit... That we must abide... That we must run the race... And that if we do not, we will be cut off and cast out!
The fruit the bible is speaking of here, is again
"Character Fruit" personal character changes in our lives that reflect the changes in our heart. From that of the world, to that of Christ Jesus the great shepherd of the sheep.
Luke 3:8
Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.
Colossians 1:9-11
9 For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you. We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives 10 so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, 11 being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience,
Matthew 7
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
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The doctrine of which says we will share in God's glory eternally whether unfaithful or faithful with what he has given us is not in scripture. Scripture always warns us with 'if'. 'If you continue in his goodness'.
The bible says that without faith it is impossible to please God. [Hebrews 11:6]
He also says that when we are faithless, he remains faithful because he cannot deny himself. [2 Timothy 2:13]
unfaithfulness is not the same as being faithless.... But you are again referring to the "Parable of the Talents" which has nothing to do with salvation as I have explained above.
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re you believe these things with no ill intentions, of what I have seen of you, you are most loving, gentle and patient, an example to others and myself. Only doctrinally speaking, I find this to be a doctrine propagated by 'schools of theology' and church institutions, which sadly, are run by money, rather than freedom in Christ.
I believe that salvation is a free gift of God and that all we need to do is believe and recieve this free gift by faith. I also believe that this is only the beginning and God takes us through a process whereby we are molded and conformed into Christs image by the aide of the Holy Spirit. This belief comes from reading the bible and revelation from the Holy Spirit. I do not take on-board, any teaching unless I have tested it by the word of God and got revelation of it myself from the Holy Spirit.
Much love and blessings to you my dear brother in Jesus!
Btw: you are the first person, I have ever encountered that believes the way you do regarding salvation, in the thirty odd years as a born-again believer...
Bless you!